AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Fri 09/12/08


Total Messages Posted: 11



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:05 AM - Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Eric M. Jones)
     2. 07:14 AM - Instrument lights always on (Jeff Page)
     3. 07:29 AM - Re: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Sam Hoskins)
     4. 07:37 AM - Re: Instrument lights always on (Ralph E. Capen)
     5. 08:24 AM - Re: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Vernon Little)
     6. 08:25 AM - Scope hunt (George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/TBM)
     7. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Vernon Little)
     8. 09:42 AM - Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Speedy11@aol.com)
     9. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Vernon Little)
    10. 05:24 PM - Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Vernon Little)
    11. 08:24 PM - Re: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:05:38 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
    From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
    Why has the problem only happened with toggles as opposed to rockers? Obviously the switch is the problem. Has ANYONE called Carling Switch and bitched?? Why not? What do they say? Despite what Bob says, 115 VAC switches should never be used for LV DC high-current applications. Do what the manufacturer suggests. That's what's printed on the side of the switch Bubela. Otherwise you're on your own. Bob--"Gas-Tight" Can you even SHOW me a "Gas-Tight" Faston connection? This silly regression to concern about gas-tight Fastons is wildly delusional. In my previous life we used Fastons for decades at 25 Amps DC with short excursions to 300 Amps with nary a failure. A hundred different people did the installation. The choice of tools by the manufacturing department never became so ANAL. I supply 50A Fastons with my high-current SSRs and I don't lose a wink of sleep. The terminals don't get as warm as a kitten's belly. "Everything you've learned in school as 'obvious' becomes less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines." -R. Buckminster Fuller -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3943#203943


    Message 2


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    Time: 07:14:34 AM PST US
    From: "Jeff Page" <jpx@Qenesis.com>
    Subject: Instrument lights always on
    I was helping a friend with his RV6A, which he purchased but didn't build. Oddly (to me anyway), the instrument lights were wired so that they are always on in flight. Turn on the Nav lights and the dimmer circuit kicks in, but with the Nav lights off, they are all full bright. Other than turning off the master switch, there is no way to turn them off. Is there any advantage to doing this ? I can think of a number of disadvantages. Perhaps this is just a wiring mistake. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:29:25 AM PST US
    From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
    Eric, this is a new and interesting topic. No need to come in swinging, let's just be polite and look at the science. Sam Hoskins www.samhoskins.blogspot.com On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:03 AM, Eric M. Jones <emjones@charter.net> wrote: > emjones@charter.net> > > Why has the problem only happened with toggles as opposed to rockers? > > Obviously the switch is the problem. Has ANYONE called Carling Switch and > bitched?? Why not? What do they say? Despite what Bob says, 115 VAC switches > should never be used for LV DC high-current applications. Do what the > manufacturer suggests. That's what's printed on the side of the switch > Bubela. Otherwise you're on your own. > > Bob--"Gas-Tight" Can you even SHOW me a "Gas-Tight" Faston connection? This > silly regression to concern about gas-tight Fastons is wildly delusional. In > my previous life we used Fastons for decades at 25 Amps DC with short > excursions to 300 Amps with nary a failure. A hundred different people did > the installation. The choice of tools by the manufacturing department never > became so ANAL. > > I supply 50A Fastons with my high-current SSRs and I don't lose a wink of > sleep. The terminals don't get as warm as a kitten's belly. > > "Everything you've learned in school as 'obvious' becomes less and less > obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids > in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no > absolute continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines." > > -R. Buckminster Fuller > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3943#203943 > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:37:15 AM PST US
    From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Instrument lights always on
    Jeff, I have a couple of lights on my panel (to illuminate my N-Number - and serve as a Master-ON indicator) that I wired this way intentionally - it took some diodes and connectors to ensure that the rest of the lights weren't backfed. The only advantage that I could see is telling you that the master is on - at night. It may be a mistake - but it took some doing to make it work that way..... JMHO, Ralph -----Original Message----- >From: Jeff Page <jpx@Qenesis.com> >Sent: Sep 12, 2008 10:12 AM >To: AeroElectric List <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Instrument lights always on > > >I was helping a friend with his RV6A, which he purchased but didn't build. >Oddly (to me anyway), the instrument lights were wired so that they >are always on in flight. Turn on the Nav lights and the dimmer >circuit kicks in, but with the Nav lights off, they are all full >bright. Other than turning off the master switch, there is no way to >turn them off. > >Is there any advantage to doing this ? I can think of a number of >disadvantages. Perhaps this is just a wiring mistake. > >Jeff Page >Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:24:15 AM PST US
    From: "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
    Subject: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
    Hi Eric. When I had my first switch failure (Master Switch) in 2006, I returned it to my supplier (well know aviation electrics company), requesting F/A. I heard nothing. Being a practical person, I thought that it was an outlier, purchased a new one and moved on. The subsequent failure of the Strobe switch a couple of years ago got me a lot more concerned, but the recent failures now have me ripping out the Carling switches and replacing with another brand. I have no definitive evidence that all Carling switches are bad, just my experiences on my airframe. The correct course of action is for my supplier to work with Carling on this. Tried that, no result. I have no economic skin in this game, but my supplier does. I just want to solve my problem and warn others by sharing my results. If others are having similar problems, then it can be determined that my problems are not unique. One thing that is definitive: all of the failing switches have loose rivets. I don't think they started that way, so it may be an effect of overheating, not the cause. Nevertheless, I can envision a thermal runaway situation as a rivet gets resistive. I'm sending some stuff to Bob for his investigation, so he can be the repository of information on this issue. Vern > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of Eric M. Jones > Sent: September 12, 2008 6:04 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** > > > > --> <emjones@charter.net> > > Why has the problem only happened with toggles as opposed to rockers? > > Obviously the switch is the problem. Has ANYONE called > Carling Switch and bitched?? Why not? What do they say? > Despite what Bob says, 115 VAC switches should never be used > for LV DC high-current applications. Do what the manufacturer > suggests. That's what's printed on the side of the switch > Bubela. Otherwise you're on your own. > > Bob--"Gas-Tight" Can you even SHOW me a "Gas-Tight" Faston > connection? This silly regression to concern about gas-tight > Fastons is wildly delusional. In my previous life we used > Fastons for decades at 25 Amps DC with short excursions to > 300 Amps with nary a failure. A hundred different people did > the installation. The choice of tools by the manufacturing > department never became so ANAL. > > I supply 50A Fastons with my high-current SSRs and I don't > lose a wink of sleep. The terminals don't get as warm as a > kitten's belly. > > "Everything you've learned in school as 'obvious' becomes > less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe. For > example, there are no solids in the universe. There's not > even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute > continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines." > > -R. Buckminster Fuller > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3943#203943 > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:25:46 AM PST US
    Subject: Scope hunt
    From: "George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/TBM" <Neal.George@hurlburt.af.mil>
    Well...the first one that we thought was available has been turned in to the black hole that is DRMO. Shoot. But... one of my test buddies may just order a 2012. I sure would like to find one that's been orphaned or replaced by something sexier. Still working it. I cut a length of Whelen cable to match the #22 that you sent and put Molex ends on both. I also pulled the FlashMeter IV out of the bag found the 4LR44 batteries gone. Can't seem to remember to go looking for replacements when I'm in a store... My Astron 35M is still buried among the stuff I didn't have room to unpack from the last move. Unless you object, I'm planning to run the tests off of a fresh garden tractor battery. The alternative is to jumper off my idling Cummins. neal Capt Neal George 605TES/TBM Hurlburt Field, FL 32544 850-884-9121 DSN 579-9121 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 11:08 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem At 08:02 AM 9/5/2008 -0500, you wrote: >TES/TBM" <Neal.George@Hurlburt.AF.MIL> > > > Neal, are you following this thread? > >I'm trying. The water's deep and I'm short. > > Any chance you could get your hands on a 'scope with digital >data recording features like a Tek TDS2012? > >Maybe. I'll ask around and see what I can find. Thanks! Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:42:41 AM PST US
    From: "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
    Subject: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
    ... > Despite what Bob says, 115 VAC switches should never be used > for LV DC high-current applications. Do what the manufacturer > suggests. That's what's printed on the side of the switch > Bubela. Otherwise you're on your own. > ... > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com ... Hi again Eric. Just to comment on what you said: "DC Rule of Thumb For those switches that list an AC voltage rating only, the "DC Rule of Thumb" can be applied for determining the switch's maximum DC current rating. This "rule" states the highest amperage on the switch should perform satisfactorily up to 30 volts DC. For example, a switch which is rated at 10A 250VAC; 15A 125VAC; 3/4HP 125-250VAC, will be likely to perform satisfactorily at 15 amps up to 30 volts DC (VDC)" http://www.carlingtech.com/products/switches/learn_more.asp?page=switches_am p-rating Therefore, all of my Carling switches are being used according to the manufacturers recommendations. The only gotcha is that the switches are not rated for operating below 0 degrees C. This is probably because the switches are not sealed from condensing moisture. This is not a problem where I live. Vern


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:42:44 AM PST US
    From: Speedy11@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
    Vern, Very interesting problem and investigation. Thanks for sharing it with us. I noticed that the fast-on is stamped 18-22 gauge and your wiring diagram lists 14 gauge wire. Could that difference have caused a weak crimp? Stan Sutterfield What is causing these recurrent problems? One theory is bad crimps, the other is bad switches. Maybe one is causing the other. If a crimp is faulty, and causes heating of the terminal, perhaps this triggers problems in the switches, which then heat up as well. Or maybe it's the other way around. **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)


    Message 9


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    Time: 10:24:37 AM PST US
    From: "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
    Subject: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
    The photo is of the strobe switch, the wiring diagram is of the landing/taxi/wig-wag circuit. That's the confusion. The strobe uses 18 ga. wiring. The "FLASH" switch is on the left in the photos, with the blue terminals. Good eyes! Thanks, Vern -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: September 12, 2008 9:42 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** Vern, Very interesting problem and investigation. Thanks for sharing it with us. I noticed that the fast-on is stamped 18-22 gauge and your wiring diagram lists 14 gauge wire. Could that difference have caused a weak crimp? Stan Sutterfield What is causing these recurrent problems? One theory is bad crimps, the other is bad switches. Maybe one is causing the other. If a crimp is faulty, and causes heating of the terminal, perhaps this triggers problems in the switches, which then heat up as well. Or maybe it's the other way around. _____ Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair <http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014> styles at StyleList.com.


    Message 10


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    Time: 05:24:33 PM PST US
    From: "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
    Subject: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
    Bob: A couple of switches, the burnt fast-ons, and some sample terminations on your way by airmail today. Hope you have time to add a learned second opinion after you have a look. Thanks, Vern > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: September 11, 2008 2:16 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** > > > > --> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net> > > > The photo at: > > http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0935_2.JPG > > shows very localized discoloration of the terminal > insulator. There's a large temperature gradient when > you consider heat flow path from a high-resistance > contact within the switch out through riveted joint, > terminal tab, fast-on socket and to the plastic insulator. > > I'm not seeing any signs of heating of the switch-tab > or the fast-on socket. The fact you ARE seeing so much > effects of heating due to poor contact in so many places > places the application tool in question. See the wire- > grip photos at: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html > > This is a critical issue for mating tools-to-terminals-to-wire. > > If you would care to send me some exemplar terminals installed > on wires, I'd be pleased to get a look at the microscopic details > of the wire grip. > > Bob . . . > > > > > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 08:24:34 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
    At 06:03 AM 9/12/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >Why has the problem only happened with toggles as opposed to rockers? Don't know that it's been this selective. Just because you're not aware of someone's difficulties/observations doesn't mean they've not happened. >Obviously the switch is the problem. Has ANYONE called Carling Switch and >bitched?? Why not? What do they say? Despite what Bob says, 115 VAC >switches should never be used for LV DC high-current applications. Do what >the manufacturer suggests. That's what's printed on the side of the switch >Bubela. Otherwise you're on your own. Really? It appears that you've not studied the physics of making connections between wires and terminals nor is it apparent that you've studied and understood the physics of relay and switch contacts. It is also glaringly obvious that you have not read the article at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Switch_Ratings.pdf nor studied the ratings charts for switches excerpted from Honeywell data similar to that found here: http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/Microswitch_TL-Series.pdf Okay Eric, call Carling. Exactly what would you say? What makes you think you'll be placed in contact with someone that actually understands what's happening? What would you expect them to say in response? If you light into Carling with the same display of ignorance as you've blessed us with here, it is unlikely their response would be helpful to you or anyone else. >Bob--"Gas-Tight" Can you even SHOW me a "Gas-Tight" Faston connection? >This silly regression to concern about gas-tight Fastons is wildly >delusional. In my previous life we used Fastons for decades at 25 Amps DC >with short excursions to 300 Amps with nary a failure. A hundred >different people did the installation. The choice of tools by the >manufacturing department never became so ANAL. Eric, 'gas tight' has nothing to do with fast-ons in particular. We're not talking about interface between the fast-on and the switch tab. We're talking about the interface between strands of wire and the terminal as determined by the design of the crimp tool. If you had bothered to read and understand the article I cited at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html then this would have been clear to you. Understand this my friend, gas-tight is not my term but that of my teachers who have accurately and patiently shared their their knowledge and understanding in volumes of printed data which is just as accessible to you as it is to me. Further there are gas-tight components of the interface between a fast-on female and the mating tab. If you had bothered to attend the seminar I offered at Plymouth a few years ago (I would have let you sit in for free) this would all have been explained to you. >I supply 50A Fastons with my high-current SSRs and I don't lose a wink of >sleep. The terminals don't get as warm as a kitten's belly. I'm pleased that you're sleeping well. I often lay awake for hours . . . my head may be busy figuring out ways to disassemble the simple-ideas of a failure into a root cause . . . or assembling the same simple- ideas into a new and useful product. >"Everything you've learned in school as 'obvious' becomes less and less >obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no >solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There >are no absolute continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight >lines." Your selection of authors for words of guiding wisdom have always been a mystery to me. Never have you seemed to embrace the notion of simple ideas (obvious profundities) and their artful assemblage into useful inventions. Instead, your choices seem to frame your writing with pessimistic uncertainty if not despair. Buckminster Fuller would be disappointed to see you quoting him in this manner. His genius and wisdom are beacons of enlightenment and discovery for millions. Yet you seem to use this passage by Fuller as some rationale for attacking what we do here with little demonstrable understanding or willingness of your own to teach. Had you contacted me directly with this fusillade of wild pitches, I would have been inclined to be more discrete in our exchange. However, you've elected to show us the best you have to offer in open forum carried forth with aspersions on my knowledge, skills and integrity. Well, it was YOU who picked the time, place and weapons sir. I will defend myself and the work that honorable and serious students of our science and art are doing here. Bob . . . "There cannot be a greater mistake than that of looking superciliously upon practical applications of science. The life and soul of science IS its practical application." -Lord Kelvin Now THAT's what I'm talking about!




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