Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:05 AM - Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Eric M. Jones)
2. 07:14 AM - Instrument lights always on (Jeff Page)
3. 07:29 AM - Re: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Sam Hoskins)
4. 07:37 AM - Re: Instrument lights always on (Ralph E. Capen)
5. 08:24 AM - Re: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Vernon Little)
6. 08:25 AM - Scope hunt (George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/TBM)
7. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Vernon Little)
8. 09:42 AM - Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Speedy11@aol.com)
9. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Vernon Little)
10. 05:24 PM - Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Vernon Little)
11. 08:24 PM - Re: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
Why has the problem only happened with toggles as opposed to rockers?
Obviously the switch is the problem. Has ANYONE called Carling Switch and bitched??
Why not? What do they say? Despite what Bob says, 115 VAC switches should
never be used for LV DC high-current applications. Do what the manufacturer suggests.
That's what's printed on the side of the switch Bubela. Otherwise you're
on your own.
Bob--"Gas-Tight" Can you even SHOW me a "Gas-Tight" Faston connection? This silly
regression to concern about gas-tight Fastons is wildly delusional. In my previous
life we used Fastons for decades at 25 Amps DC with short excursions to
300 Amps with nary a failure. A hundred different people did the installation.
The choice of tools by the manufacturing department never became so ANAL.
I supply 50A Fastons with my high-current SSRs and I don't lose a wink of sleep.
The terminals don't get as warm as a kitten's belly.
"Everything you've learned in school as 'obvious' becomes less and less obvious
as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids in the universe.
There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute continuums.
There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
-R. Buckminster Fuller
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3943#203943
Message 2
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Subject: | Instrument lights always on |
I was helping a friend with his RV6A, which he purchased but didn't build.
Oddly (to me anyway), the instrument lights were wired so that they
are always on in flight. Turn on the Nav lights and the dimmer
circuit kicks in, but with the Nav lights off, they are all full
bright. Other than turning off the master switch, there is no way to
turn them off.
Is there any advantage to doing this ? I can think of a number of
disadvantages. Perhaps this is just a wiring mistake.
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
Eric, this is a new and interesting topic. No need to come in swinging,
let's just be polite and look at the science.
Sam Hoskins
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:03 AM, Eric M. Jones <emjones@charter.net> wrote:
> emjones@charter.net>
>
> Why has the problem only happened with toggles as opposed to rockers?
>
> Obviously the switch is the problem. Has ANYONE called Carling Switch and
> bitched?? Why not? What do they say? Despite what Bob says, 115 VAC switches
> should never be used for LV DC high-current applications. Do what the
> manufacturer suggests. That's what's printed on the side of the switch
> Bubela. Otherwise you're on your own.
>
> Bob--"Gas-Tight" Can you even SHOW me a "Gas-Tight" Faston connection? This
> silly regression to concern about gas-tight Fastons is wildly delusional. In
> my previous life we used Fastons for decades at 25 Amps DC with short
> excursions to 300 Amps with nary a failure. A hundred different people did
> the installation. The choice of tools by the manufacturing department never
> became so ANAL.
>
> I supply 50A Fastons with my high-current SSRs and I don't lose a wink of
> sleep. The terminals don't get as warm as a kitten's belly.
>
> "Everything you've learned in school as 'obvious' becomes less and less
> obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids
> in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no
> absolute continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
>
> -R. Buckminster Fuller
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones@charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3943#203943
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Instrument lights always on |
Jeff,
I have a couple of lights on my panel (to illuminate my N-Number - and serve as
a Master-ON indicator) that I wired this way intentionally - it took some diodes
and connectors to ensure that the rest of the lights weren't backfed.
The only advantage that I could see is telling you that the master is on - at night.
It may be a mistake - but it took some doing to make it work that way.....
JMHO,
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: Jeff Page <jpx@Qenesis.com>
>Sent: Sep 12, 2008 10:12 AM
>To: AeroElectric List <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Instrument lights always on
>
>
>I was helping a friend with his RV6A, which he purchased but didn't build.
>Oddly (to me anyway), the instrument lights were wired so that they
>are always on in flight. Turn on the Nav lights and the dimmer
>circuit kicks in, but with the Nav lights off, they are all full
>bright. Other than turning off the master switch, there is no way to
>turn them off.
>
>Is there any advantage to doing this ? I can think of a number of
>disadvantages. Perhaps this is just a wiring mistake.
>
>Jeff Page
>Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
Hi Eric.
When I had my first switch failure (Master Switch) in 2006, I returned it to
my supplier (well know aviation electrics company), requesting F/A. I heard
nothing. Being a practical person, I thought that it was an outlier,
purchased a new one and moved on.
The subsequent failure of the Strobe switch a couple of years ago got me a
lot more concerned, but the recent failures now have me ripping out the
Carling switches and replacing with another brand. I have no definitive
evidence that all Carling switches are bad, just my experiences on my
airframe.
The correct course of action is for my supplier to work with Carling on
this. Tried that, no result. I have no economic skin in this game, but my
supplier does. I just want to solve my problem and warn others by sharing
my results. If others are having similar problems, then it can be
determined that my problems are not unique.
One thing that is definitive: all of the failing switches have loose
rivets. I don't think they started that way, so it may be an effect of
overheating, not the cause. Nevertheless, I can envision a thermal runaway
situation as a rivet gets resistive.
I'm sending some stuff to Bob for his investigation, so he can be the
repository of information on this issue.
Vern
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Eric M. Jones
> Sent: September 12, 2008 6:04 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
>
>
>
> --> <emjones@charter.net>
>
> Why has the problem only happened with toggles as opposed to rockers?
>
> Obviously the switch is the problem. Has ANYONE called
> Carling Switch and bitched?? Why not? What do they say?
> Despite what Bob says, 115 VAC switches should never be used
> for LV DC high-current applications. Do what the manufacturer
> suggests. That's what's printed on the side of the switch
> Bubela. Otherwise you're on your own.
>
> Bob--"Gas-Tight" Can you even SHOW me a "Gas-Tight" Faston
> connection? This silly regression to concern about gas-tight
> Fastons is wildly delusional. In my previous life we used
> Fastons for decades at 25 Amps DC with short excursions to
> 300 Amps with nary a failure. A hundred different people did
> the installation. The choice of tools by the manufacturing
> department never became so ANAL.
>
> I supply 50A Fastons with my high-current SSRs and I don't
> lose a wink of sleep. The terminals don't get as warm as a
> kitten's belly.
>
> "Everything you've learned in school as 'obvious' becomes
> less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe. For
> example, there are no solids in the universe. There's not
> even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute
> continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
>
> -R. Buckminster Fuller
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones@charter.net
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3943#203943
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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|
Well...the first one that we thought was available has been turned in to the black
hole that is DRMO. Shoot.
But... one of my test buddies may just order a 2012. I sure would like to find
one that's been orphaned or replaced by something sexier.
Still working it. I cut a length of Whelen cable to match the #22 that you sent
and put Molex ends on both. I also pulled the FlashMeter IV out of the bag
found the 4LR44 batteries gone. Can't seem to remember to go looking for replacements
when I'm in a store...
My Astron 35M is still buried among the stuff I didn't have room to unpack from
the last move. Unless you object, I'm planning to run the tests off of a fresh
garden tractor battery. The alternative is to jumper off my idling Cummins.
neal
Capt Neal George
605TES/TBM
Hurlburt Field, FL 32544
850-884-9121
DSN 579-9121
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 11:08 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem
At 08:02 AM 9/5/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>TES/TBM" <Neal.George@Hurlburt.AF.MIL>
>
>
> Neal, are you following this thread?
>
>I'm trying. The water's deep and I'm short.
>
> Any chance you could get your hands on a 'scope with digital
>data recording features like a Tek TDS2012?
>
>Maybe. I'll ask around and see what I can find.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
...
> Despite what Bob says, 115 VAC switches should never be used
> for LV DC high-current applications. Do what the manufacturer
> suggests. That's what's printed on the side of the switch
> Bubela. Otherwise you're on your own.
>
...
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
...
Hi again Eric. Just to comment on what you said:
"DC Rule of Thumb
For those switches that list an AC voltage rating only, the "DC Rule of
Thumb" can be applied for determining the switch's maximum DC current
rating. This "rule" states the highest amperage on the switch should perform
satisfactorily up to 30 volts DC. For example, a switch which is rated at
10A 250VAC; 15A 125VAC; 3/4HP 125-250VAC, will be likely to perform
satisfactorily at 15 amps up to 30 volts DC (VDC)"
http://www.carlingtech.com/products/switches/learn_more.asp?page=switches_am
p-rating
Therefore, all of my Carling switches are being used according to the
manufacturers recommendations. The only gotcha is that the switches are not
rated for operating below 0 degrees C. This is probably because the
switches are not sealed from condensing moisture. This is not a problem
where I live.
Vern
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
Vern,
Very interesting problem and investigation. Thanks for sharing it with us.
I noticed that the fast-on is stamped 18-22 gauge and your wiring diagram
lists 14 gauge wire. Could that difference have caused a weak crimp?
Stan Sutterfield
What is causing these recurrent problems? One theory is bad crimps, the
other is bad switches. Maybe one is causing the other. If a crimp is
faulty, and causes heating of the terminal, perhaps this triggers problems
in the switches, which then heat up as well. Or maybe it's the other way
around.
**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
The photo is of the strobe switch, the wiring diagram is of the
landing/taxi/wig-wag circuit. That's the confusion. The strobe uses 18
ga.
wiring. The "FLASH" switch is on the left in the photos, with the blue
terminals.
Good eyes!
Thanks, Vern
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Speedy11@aol.com
Sent: September 12, 2008 9:42 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
Vern,
Very interesting problem and investigation. Thanks for sharing it with
us.
I noticed that the fast-on is stamped 18-22 gauge and your wiring
diagram
lists 14 gauge wire. Could that difference have caused a weak crimp?
Stan Sutterfield
What is causing these recurrent problems? One theory is bad crimps, the
other is bad switches. Maybe one is causing the other. If a crimp is
faulty, and causes heating of the terminal, perhaps this triggers
problems
in the switches, which then heat up as well. Or maybe it's the other
way
around.
_____
Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the
latest fall trends and hair
<http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014> styles at
StyleList.com.
Message 10
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Subject: | Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
Bob: A couple of switches, the burnt fast-ons, and some sample terminations
on your way by airmail today. Hope you have time to add a learned second
opinion after you have a look.
Thanks, Vern
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: September 11, 2008 2:16 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
>
>
>
> --> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>
>
> The photo at:
>
> http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0935_2.JPG
>
> shows very localized discoloration of the terminal
> insulator. There's a large temperature gradient when
> you consider heat flow path from a high-resistance
> contact within the switch out through riveted joint,
> terminal tab, fast-on socket and to the plastic insulator.
>
> I'm not seeing any signs of heating of the switch-tab
> or the fast-on socket. The fact you ARE seeing so much
> effects of heating due to poor contact in so many places
> places the application tool in question. See the wire-
> grip photos at:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html
>
> This is a critical issue for mating tools-to-terminals-to-wire.
>
> If you would care to send me some exemplar terminals installed
> on wires, I'd be pleased to get a look at the microscopic details
> of the wire grip.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
At 06:03 AM 9/12/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Why has the problem only happened with toggles as opposed to rockers?
Don't know that it's been this selective. Just because
you're not aware of someone's difficulties/observations
doesn't mean they've not happened.
>Obviously the switch is the problem. Has ANYONE called Carling Switch and
>bitched?? Why not? What do they say? Despite what Bob says, 115 VAC
>switches should never be used for LV DC high-current applications. Do what
>the manufacturer suggests. That's what's printed on the side of the switch
>Bubela. Otherwise you're on your own.
Really? It appears that you've not studied the physics
of making connections between wires and terminals
nor is it apparent that you've studied and understood
the physics of relay and switch contacts.
It is also glaringly obvious that you have not read the
article at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Switch_Ratings.pdf
nor studied the ratings charts for switches excerpted
from Honeywell data similar to that found here:
http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/Microswitch_TL-Series.pdf
Okay Eric, call Carling. Exactly what would you say?
What makes you think you'll be placed in contact with
someone that actually understands what's happening? What
would you expect them to say in response? If you light into
Carling with the same display of ignorance as you've
blessed us with here, it is unlikely their response
would be helpful to you or anyone else.
>Bob--"Gas-Tight" Can you even SHOW me a "Gas-Tight" Faston connection?
>This silly regression to concern about gas-tight Fastons is wildly
>delusional. In my previous life we used Fastons for decades at 25 Amps DC
>with short excursions to 300 Amps with nary a failure. A hundred
>different people did the installation. The choice of tools by the
>manufacturing department never became so ANAL.
Eric, 'gas tight' has nothing to do with fast-ons in
particular. We're not talking about interface between
the fast-on and the switch tab. We're talking about
the interface between strands of wire and the terminal
as determined by the design of the crimp tool.
If you had bothered to read and understand the article
I cited at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html
then this would have been clear to you.
Understand this my friend, gas-tight is not my term
but that of my teachers who have accurately and patiently
shared their their knowledge and understanding in volumes
of printed data which is just as accessible to you
as it is to me.
Further there are gas-tight components of the interface
between a fast-on female and the mating tab. If you had
bothered to attend the seminar I offered at Plymouth
a few years ago (I would have let you sit in for free)
this would all have been explained to you.
>I supply 50A Fastons with my high-current SSRs and I don't lose a wink of
>sleep. The terminals don't get as warm as a kitten's belly.
I'm pleased that you're sleeping well. I often lay
awake for hours . . . my head may be busy figuring
out ways to disassemble the simple-ideas of a failure
into a root cause . . . or assembling the same simple-
ideas into a new and useful product.
>"Everything you've learned in school as 'obvious' becomes less and less
>obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no
>solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There
>are no absolute continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight
>lines."
Your selection of authors for words of guiding wisdom
have always been a mystery to me. Never have you seemed
to embrace the notion of simple ideas (obvious profundities)
and their artful assemblage into useful inventions. Instead,
your choices seem to frame your writing with pessimistic
uncertainty if not despair. Buckminster Fuller would be
disappointed to see you quoting him in this manner. His
genius and wisdom are beacons of enlightenment and
discovery for millions. Yet you seem to use this passage
by Fuller as some rationale for attacking what we do here with
little demonstrable understanding or willingness of your
own to teach.
Had you contacted me directly with this fusillade of
wild pitches, I would have been inclined to be more
discrete in our exchange. However, you've elected to show
us the best you have to offer in open forum carried
forth with aspersions on my knowledge, skills and integrity.
Well, it was YOU who picked the time, place and
weapons sir. I will defend myself and the work that
honorable and serious students of our science and art
are doing here.
Bob . . .
"There cannot be a greater mistake than that of looking
superciliously upon practical applications of science.
The life and soul of science IS its practical application."
-Lord
Kelvin
Now THAT's what I'm talking about!
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