AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 09/15/08


Total Messages Posted: 8



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:01 AM - Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner (David & Elaine Lamphere)
     2. 09:14 AM - Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner (Tim Andres)
     3. 09:58 AM - Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner (David & Elaine Lamphere)
     4. 10:03 AM - Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner (F. Tim Yoder)
     5. 10:06 AM - Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_W?=)
     6. 12:47 PM - Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner (Tim Andres)
     7. 05:53 PM - OFF TOPIC-- .ewb software (raymondj)
     8. 11:53 PM - Re: B+C alternator problem (rocket2man)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:01:28 AM PST US
    From: "David & Elaine Lamphere" <dalamphere@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr.
    Cotner Thanks to all those concerned for other builder's safety. That's one of the wonderful benefits of subscribing to a group! Sure am glad none of the pilots were killed as a result of these failures. But what a heartache to severely damage a plane that required so much work to build! It almost sounds like one ignition failed causing kick-backs/pre-detonation/vibration that broke the other side! I would like to point out that the fix as I understand it that is posted at EMag's web-site (and I quote): "The correction involves 1) replacing the sensor mount with a lighter one (now only 4 grams), 2) adding a key way to the shaft and the sensor mount, and 3) drilling and roll-pinning the assembly in place." It was mentioned in one of the posts that drilling a hole through the shaft was not acceptable and would create a stress concentration. Please note that the end of the shaft is necked down in diameter and has a keyway slot milled out - that sounds to me like a major stress concentration area also - but is commonly used on magnetos and not a problem to my understanding. What wasn't said at the EMag site was if they still were using epoxy alone to hold the magnet into it's mount. If there's some mechanical shape involved that adds to the integrity of it - good. In the meantime, as I approach finishing of my plane, I'll probably be taking the advice of a good friend and go with one conventional magneto and one (hopefully) fixed EMag product. Also, is this an issue with O-360's and not others? (O-320, O-235,O-200) Dave


    Message 2


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    Time: 09:14:54 AM PST US
    From: "Tim Andres" <tim2542@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr.
    Cotner Dave, if you read Marc Z's account of his problems carefully, you will note that he was UNABLE to turn off the EMAG in flight. If he had been able to turn it off he could have continued on without damaging the engine. Just so you know, it may not be just a matter of turning off the failed Emag and flying safely on one mag. Tim Andres Dave wrote: Thanks to all those concerned for other builder's safety. That's one of the wonderful benefits of subscribing to a group! In the meantime, as I approach finishing of my plane, I'll probably be taking the advice of a good friend and go with one conventional magneto and one (hopefully) fixed EMag product. Also, is this an issue with O-360's and not others? (O-320, O-235,O-200) Dave


    Message 3


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    Time: 09:58:17 AM PST US
    From: "David & Elaine Lamphere" <dalamphere@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr.
    Cotner I appreciate your concern. .. but .. I do not believe that the ignition not shutting off is related to the timing magnet loosening. Either the "P" Lead circuit from his ignition switch was broken, the ignition switch malfunctioning or miswired, or did not switch to running ignition. Think about it.. I know it's a VERY emotional issue to have someting that you trust fail, but let's not give mechanisms sinister minds of their own.. :-) Regards, Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Andres" <tim2542@sbcglobal.net> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 12:12 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner > <tim2542@sbcglobal.net> > > Dave, if you read Marc Z's account of his problems carefully, you will > note > that he was UNABLE to turn off the EMAG in flight. If he had been able to > turn it off he could have continued on without damaging the engine. > Just so you know, it may not be just a matter of turning off the failed > Emag > and flying safely on one mag. > Tim Andres > > Dave wrote: > Thanks to all those concerned for other builder's safety. That's one of > the > wonderful benefits of subscribing to a group! > In the meantime, as I approach finishing of my plane, I'll probably be > taking the advice of a good friend and go with one conventional magneto > and > one (hopefully) fixed EMag product. > > Also, is this an issue with O-360's and not others? (O-320, O-235,O-200) > > Dave > > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 10:03:14 AM PST US
    From: "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
    Subject: Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr.
    Cotner FYI I installed a Light speed Engineering, Plasma III on my Cont. IO-240 two years ago and have had NO problems. They have been selling units for over 20 yrs. I left one mag on just for safety sake and you still get almost all of the benefits of electronic ignition and save money too. Great report by Marc and forwarded by Steve. Thanks, Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "David & Elaine Lamphere" <dalamphere@comcast.net> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 5:59 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner <dalamphere@comcast.net> > > Thanks to all those concerned for other builder's safety. That's one of the > wonderful benefits of subscribing to a group! > Sure am glad none of the pilots were killed as a result of these failures. > But what a heartache to severely damage a plane that required so much work > to build! It almost sounds like one ignition failed causing > kick-backs/pre-detonation/vibration that broke the other side! > > I would like to point out that the fix as I understand it that is posted at > EMag's web-site (and I quote): > > "The correction involves 1) replacing the sensor mount with a lighter one > (now only 4 grams), 2) adding a key way to the shaft and the sensor mount, > and 3) drilling and roll-pinning the assembly in place." > > It was mentioned in one of the posts that drilling a hole through the shaft > was not acceptable and would create a stress concentration. Please note that > the end of the shaft is necked down in diameter and has a keyway slot milled > out - that sounds to me like a major stress concentration area also - but is > commonly used on magnetos and not a problem to my understanding. > > What wasn't said at the EMag site was if they still were using epoxy alone > to hold the magnet into it's mount. If there's some mechanical shape > involved that adds to the integrity of it - good. > > In the meantime, as I approach finishing of my plane, I'll probably be > taking the advice of a good friend and go with one conventional magneto and > one (hopefully) fixed EMag product. > > Also, is this an issue with O-360's and not others? (O-320, O-235,O-200) > > Dave > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:06:14 AM PST US
    From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_W?= <michele.delsol@microsigma.fr>
    Subject: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr.
    Cotner To all, The issues on PMags are a concern as I have planned for 2 of them on a TMX-IO360. As for shutting down the PMags in flight (it seems that Mark Z had a PMag, not an Emag), you can't shut it down by just turning the power off because it will continue generating its own power (above 900 RPM). It does however have a Plead as regular mags have, which will shut it down by grounding. But the Plead has to be connected just as on regular mags. Question, did Marc Z connect his Pleads in such a way that he could shut the PMags down ? In my set up, I have a regular keyed ignition switch just like regular magnetos, connecting the Pleads, plus two breaker switches which feed power to the PMags and LEDS which when lit indicate that the PMags are indeed getting 12 volts. Michle RV8 - trying to get it finished -----Message d'origine----- De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Tim Andres Envoy: lundi 15 septembre 2008 18:13 : aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Objet: RE: AeroElectric-List: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner <tim2542@sbcglobal.net> Dave, if you read Marc Z's account of his problems carefully, you will note that he was UNABLE to turn off the EMAG in flight. If he had been able to turn it off he could have continued on without damaging the engine. Just so you know, it may not be just a matter of turning off the failed Emag and flying safely on one mag. Tim Andres Dave wrote: Thanks to all those concerned for other builder's safety. That's one of the wonderful benefits of subscribing to a group! In the meantime, as I approach finishing of my plane, I'll probably be taking the advice of a good friend and go with one conventional magneto and one (hopefully) fixed EMag product. Also, is this an issue with O-360's and not others? (O-320, O-235,O-200) Dave


    Message 6


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    Time: 12:47:21 PM PST US
    From: "Tim Andres" <tim2542@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr.
    Cotner FWIW, a misfiring PMAG/EMAG or plain vanilla mag can break a ring in a second, and hole a piston in little more time than it takes to read this. Can you turn it off that quick? Whether it was wired correctly or not is not the real issue. If it losses time (and it's been well documented that they do) it can do major damage very quickly. Tim Andres -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michle W Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 10:00 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner <michele.delsol@microsigma.fr> To all, The issues on PMags are a concern as I have planned for 2 of them on a TMX-IO360. As for shutting down the PMags in flight (it seems that Mark Z had a PMag, not an Emag), you can't shut it down by just turning the power off because it will continue generating its own power (above 900 RPM). It does however have a Plead as regular mags have, which will shut it down by grounding. But the Plead has to be connected just as on regular mags. Question, did Marc Z connect his Pleads in such a way that he could shut the PMags down ? In my set up, I have a regular keyed ignition switch just like regular magnetos, connecting the Pleads, plus two breaker switches which feed power to the PMags and LEDS which when lit indicate that the PMags are indeed getting 12 volts. Michle RV8 - trying to get it finished -----Message d'origine----- De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Tim Andres Envoy: lundi 15 septembre 2008 18:13 : aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Objet: RE: AeroElectric-List: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner <tim2542@sbcglobal.net> Dave, if you read Marc Z's account of his problems carefully, you will note that he was UNABLE to turn off the EMAG in flight. If he had been able to turn it off he could have continued on without damaging the engine. Just so you know, it may not be just a matter of turning off the failed Emag and flying safely on one mag. Tim Andres Dave wrote: Thanks to all those concerned for other builder's safety. That's one of the wonderful benefits of subscribing to a group! In the meantime, as I approach finishing of my plane, I'll probably be taking the advice of a good friend and go with one conventional magneto and one (hopefully) fixed EMag product. Also, is this an issue with O-360's and not others? (O-320, O-235,O-200) Dave


    Message 7


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    Time: 05:53:10 PM PST US
    From: "raymondj" <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: OFF TOPIC-- .ewb software
    Greetings, I am working my way through Floyd's Electric Fundamentals 5th ed. and would like use the resources on the included CD. This requires software which will open .ewb files. The most common one is Multisim by National Instrument. Unfortunately, they require that you be enrolled in a formal learning environment to allow the purchase of the student version of Multisim. I am looking for a copy of the student version that someone is no longer using or any other software which will allow me to open and use the .ewb files. Thanks, Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst." do not archive


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:53:48 PM PST US
    From: rocket2man <rocket2man@isp.com>
    Subject: re: B+C alternator problem
    This tends to confirm my suspicion that B&C has probably not replaced departed technical staff that used to support this and other products . . . It's true that the "C" version was crafted to offset the effects of an extra-ordinary (outside the Mil-Std-704 envelope) noise situation on the G36 Bonanza. It's also true that your particular installation may be generating some un-anticipated stress that upsets the ov protection. I should point out here . . . AGAIN . . . that this situation is not unique to the so-called "crowbar" shutdown philosophy. It's a situation driven by the dynamics of circuitry that watches for an ov condition and makes a Let-Run/Shut-Down decision. It's a system design and integration problem that must be solved irrespective of the designer's choice for shut-down philosophy. I.e, anyone's OV protection scheme can be similarly "spoofed" into an unnecessary shutdown event. My sense is that B&C is hopeful of keeping this prolem out of their shops . . . so let's do this. The upstream field supply protection should be a 5A breaker. If there's a "fusible" function upstream of the breaker, make it a 24AWG fusible link. Let's get the unit-fuse out of the system. The breaker should be mounted within reach of the pilot. Let's do some flying and see if you can identify the antagonist condition. By the way, I'm assuming you DO have a single point ground behind the panel for all the electro-whizzies? Let's conduct some experiments to see if the noise source can be deduced. If push comes to shove, you can mail me your regulator and I'll modify it here. I think I recall all the things we did to them . . . but it's been 7-10 years ago. Bob . . . Bob - One more data point - before I replaced the blade fuse with a 5 amp C/B, I inserted a 20 amp fuse (the biggest I had handy) and flew it. Used the fuel pump and strobes a couple of times on and off but it did not blow. Then, 20 minutes later without any change in load it blew. Landed, installed another 20 amp blade fuse and flew again. No electrical loads this time until I turned the nav lights on and it was fine. 20 minutes into the flight it blew again. I'm taking the airplane apart again to install the 5 amp C/B. ???? How come this seems to be related to time? I live in the desert and it was 105 F during these flights. JBB




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