---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/16/08: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:38 AM - Z13-8B Brown-out battery question (pgroell) 2. 04:55 AM - Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Brantel) 3. 05:20 AM - Re: Z13-8B Brown-out battery question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: B+C alternator problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 06:47 AM - Re: EV200 circuit (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:10 AM - Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner (Jeff Page) 7. 08:37 AM - Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner (Mike) 8. 09:22 AM - Re: Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner (S. Ramirez) 9. 09:30 AM - Re: Z13-8B Brown-out battery question (Pascal GROELL) 10. 10:23 AM - Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner (Marc Zeitlin) 11. 10:57 AM - Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs **Breaking News** (Vernon Little) 12. 11:29 AM - Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs **Breaking News** (Vernon Little) 13. 01:02 PM - Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs **Breaking News** (George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/TBM) 14. 01:53 PM - Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs **Breaking News** (Vernon Little) 15. 01:57 PM - Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs **Breaking News** (Vernon Little) 16. 06:56 PM - E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Well reasoned followup part1 (Steve Stearns) 17. 06:58 PM - E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Well reasoned followup part2 (Steve Stearns) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:38:10 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z13-8B Brown-out battery question From: "pgroell" Hello, I have a question about the Z13-8B drawing. http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8B(BrownOutBattery).pdf I understand that the brown-out battery relay opens when pushing the engine start button, disconnecting the brownout battery from the main battery circuit. But I am right to think that in order to have the E-bus energized by the brown-out battery at cranking time, the e-bus alternate feed has to be closed. Or is the alternate feed relay closed by another mean I'm unable to figure out reading the drawing. Thanks for your help. Pascal GROELL www.notreavion.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4531#204531 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:33 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver From: "Brantel" Bob, Have not received the driver board yet. Is it lost or ??? Thanks, Brian Chesteen DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4537#204537 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:55 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z13-8B Brown-out battery question At 02:35 AM 9/16/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >Hello, >I have a question about the Z13-8B drawing. >http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8B(BrownOutBattery).pdf > >I understand that the brown-out battery relay opens when pushing the >engine start button, disconnecting the brownout battery from the main >battery circuit. >But I am right to think that in order to have the E-bus energized by the >brown-out battery at cranking time, the e-bus alternate feed has to be closed. >Or is the alternate feed relay closed by another mean I'm unable to figure >out reading the drawing. >Thanks for your help. Your analysis is correct. To use this feature for the purpose of preventing reset of e-bus feed systems due to starter inrush brown-out, the e-bus alternate feed switch needs to be closed during starting. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:15 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: re: B+C alternator problem At 11:51 PM 9/15/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >This tends to confirm my suspicion that B&C has > probably not replaced departed technical staff that > used to support this and other products . . . > > > > If push comes to shove, you can mail me your regulator > and I'll modify it here. I think I recall all the things > we did to them . . . but it's been 7-10 years ago. > > Bob . . . > >Bob - >One more data point - before I replaced the blade fuse with a 5 amp C/B, I >inserted a 20 amp fuse (the biggest I had handy) and flew it. Used the >fuel pump and strobes a couple of times on and off but it did not >blow. Then, 20 minutes later without any change in load it blew. Landed, >installed another 20 amp blade fuse and flew again. No electrical loads >this time until I turned the nav lights on and it was fine. 20 minutes >into the flight it blew again. I'm taking the airplane apart again to >install the 5 amp C/B. ???? How come this seems to be related to >time? I live in the desert and it was 105 F during these flights. JBB The best hypothesis of the moment suggests that were seeing the effects of time in service for downward drift of trip setting of OV protection, upward drift in total system noise or both. It's equally plausible that the conditions that combine to finally push the OV sensor over the edge are a statistical aggregate of all conditions where they stack up at the edge of the bell curve . . . the conditions that combine to trip the sensor are not frequent but they are random. This is the reason that design goals for OV sense systems use timing values that are substantially above the worst case noise expected in the airplane. The operative term here is 'expected' . . . where we discovered after years of production with one configuration, a particular airplane produced an unexpected combination of stimulus that tripped the OV protection. Folks mistakenly believe that the size of the upstream protection sets the sensitivity of the OV protection. Not so. Increasing the fuse size does not make the system less likely to trip. This is why we recommend that the 5A cb be in included in aircraft that are otherwise protected by fuses. This nuisance tripping phenomenon is not 100.0% predictable. Send me your LR3 and I'll see what I can do to tweak it's setpoint and timing such that it fixes your problem. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EV200 circuit >Still waiting on my contactor sample. What size copper strip are you needing. I found my stash of copper sheet. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:24 AM PST US From: "Jeff Page" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner Any possibility that grounding the P-Lead would have no effect if the microcontroller was way too busy handling strangely timed interrupts due to the timing sensor bouncing around ? That would depend on whether the P-Lead is a standard input read by the microcontroller, or goes directly to some circuitry that shuts off the spark outputs. Anyone know how the circuirty is designed ? Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 > As for shutting down the PMags in flight (it seems that Mark Z had a PMag, > not an Emag), you can't shut it down by just turning the power off because > it will continue generating its own power (above 900 RPM). It does however > have a Plead as regular mags have, which will shut it down by grounding. But > the Plead has to be connected just as on regular mags. Question, did Marc Z > connect his Pleads in such a way that he could shut the PMags down ? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:53 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner Tim, You bring up the most important issue of unstable timing. If you time advances at high power it reduces you detonation margin. Their are some important issues here, one you may not recognize detonation, two you may/will damage internal components of your engine, and three permanent damage and/or engine can occur. I have personally rescued a pilot who landed out on a highway in the high country of Arizona. He was very lucky that he found a place to land and no cars were on the road at the time. This could have been a life altering experience. The recap of the failure mode was attributed to heat on the emag/pmags. I'm not sure if that was a correct assessment. I have been running the Lightspeed Plasma III in a dual configuration for over 300 hours. I have had one hard failure with one ignition unite at about 60 hours. Since that repair and upgrade (cooling ports for the hot AZ summers) both unites have worked perfectly. I can assure you that if I ever have a problem with maintaining proper timing that I WILL BECOME A MAGNETO CUSTOMER. Maintaining proper timing is the difference between being a glider and an airplane. An extreme example of improper timing is shown by watching a Top Fuel dragster or funny car go off time. Off timing makes for the BIGGEST explosions in these cars. Check out You Tube. Mike Larkin 31 years flying 30 wrenching 8 years professional wrenching 15 years avionics 5 years professional avionics 21 years professional flying 24 years homebuilding I'm an airplane guy and safety is no. 1 NO COMPROMISING -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Andres Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 12:45 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner FWIW, a misfiring PMAG/EMAG or plain vanilla mag can break a ring in a second, and hole a piston in little more time than it takes to read this. Can you turn it off that quick? Whether it was wired correctly or not is not the real issue. If it losses time (and it's been well documented that they do) it can do major damage very quickly. Tim Andres 9/5/2008 6:57 AM ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:01 AM PST US From: "S. Ramirez" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner Jeff, although a good point to bring up, I highly doubt that such an important function would go to the microprocessor, except as a status input. Surely it would go to a hard wired shut off circuit outside the micro to guarantee outside control without software being involved. If it didn't, it would be a major design error. However, all of these details are most likely proprietary data, and only Emagair would know. Simon Do Not Archive Copyright C 2008 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Page Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 10:32 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner Any possibility that grounding the P-Lead would have no effect if the microcontroller was way too busy handling strangely timed interrupts due to the timing sensor bouncing around ? That would depend on whether the P-Lead is a standard input read by the microcontroller, or goes directly to some circuitry that shuts off the spark outputs. Anyone know how the circuirty is designed ? Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 > As for shutting down the PMags in flight (it seems that Mark Z had a PMag, > not an Emag), you can't shut it down by just turning the power off because > it will continue generating its own power (above 900 RPM). It does however > have a Plead as regular mags have, which will shut it down by grounding. But > the Plead has to be connected just as on regular mags. Question, did Marc Z > connect his Pleads in such a way that he could shut the PMags down ? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:25 AM PST US From: "Pascal GROELL" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z13-8B Brown-out battery question Hello, Thanks for the answer Best regards Pascal Do not archive > -----Message d'origine----- > De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner- > aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Robert L. > Nuckolls, III > Envoy: mardi 16 septembre 2008 14:21 > : aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Objet: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z13-8B Brown-out battery question > > > > At 02:35 AM 9/16/2008 -0700, you wrote: > > > >Hello, > >I have a question about the Z13-8B drawing. > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13- > 8B(BrownOutBattery).pdf > > > >I understand that the brown-out battery relay opens when pushing the > >engine start button, disconnecting the brownout battery from the main > >battery circuit. > >But I am right to think that in order to have the E-bus energized by > the > >brown-out battery at cranking time, the e-bus alternate feed has to be > closed. > >Or is the alternate feed relay closed by another mean I'm unable to > figure > >out reading the drawing. > >Thanks for your help. > > Your analysis is correct. To use this feature for the purpose > of preventing reset of e-bus feed systems due to starter > inrush brown-out, the e-bus alternate feed switch needs to > be closed during starting. > > Bob . . . > > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:22 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Referenced msg from Mr. Cotner From: "Marc Zeitlin" I joined the matronics lists to be able to respond to a few of the comments posted here, but don't expect to be a regular. At any rate: dalamphere(at)comcast.net wrote: > Either the "P" Lead circuit from his ignition switch was broken, the ignition switch malfunctioning or miswired, or did not switch to running ignition. The Emagair products I had on my engine (one Pmag and one Emag) were both wired with "P" leads, just as the manual explains, and both ignitions were tested with "mag checks" before every flight, including the one in question. In fact, you CAN turn off a Pmag, even with the RPM's above the cutoff of the generator kick-in, with a "P-lead" grounding event, and it had always worked before. The switch worked correctly for 6.5 years prior to and all tests after the failure event, indicating that the switch and wiring were/are working fine. While in the air, I attempted to run off of one EI, then the other EI, then Both EI's, and saw minor differences in operation in the three cases. After landing and UNPLUGGING the power from the failed EI, the engine ran perfectly on the single remaining EI. dalamphere(at)comcast.net wrote: > I do not believe that the ignition not shutting off is related to the timing magnet loosening. I don't know what the firmware in the EI assumes, or how it works, and I don't know what the hardware is doing either. All I can tell you is that when the EI failed due to the magnet slippage and the HUGE change in timing, in this one case the EI would NOT shut itself off via "P-lead" grounding. In all other cases of Emagair product failures that I've had (and it's been a substantial number), they've always shut themselves off when grounded, but in this case, it did not. Believe what you will - I'm certainly more than familiar with believing what I WANT to believe, no matter what the facts of the matter are - just review my usage history with the Emagair products to see that. But the facts are what the facts are. -------- Marc J. Zeitlin marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu http://www.cozybuilders.org/ http://www.mdzeitlin.com/Marc/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4621#204621 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:22 AM PST US From: "Vernon Little" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs **Breaking News** Here's some breaking news for those following the burnt-switch thread: I am receipt of a photo from another builder that shows three switches with burnt fast-on tabs! He's identified that two of the switches are the Wig-Wag switch and the Strobe switch. Not sure what the third one is for. I am getting more information and will post it here, including the indentification of the switches and the brands. Compare this new photo: http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/PH_Switches.JPG With the photo from my aircraft: http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0935_2.JPG My investigation shows no burned terminals on my Wig-Wag, Landing or Taxi switches, although they did get warm. I do have inrush current limiters on the lighting circuits. My Strobe switch (photo) was toasted, literally, as shown in the second photo. What are the commonalities here? Both are from RV-9As but that's irrelevant. Both aircraft have problems with both the Strobe and Wig-Wag switches (and potentially Landing and Taxi circuits as well). Have yet to identify the switch manufacturers, but evidence is leaning towards brand-independence. Stay tuned. Vern ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:14 AM PST US From: "Vernon Little" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs **Breaking News** One correction, there are only 2 switches affected in the photo, the third has a black tie-wrap on it! The two circuits that show distress (left to right) are the Wig-Wag and Strobe switches. I have confirmed that the Strobe switch is made by Carling, but the Wig-Wag brand has not been confirmed. Vern -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Little Sent: September 16, 2008 10:56 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs **Breaking News** Here's some breaking news for those following the burnt-switch thread: I am receipt of a photo from another builder that shows three switches with burnt fast-on tabs! He's identified that two of the switches are the Wig-Wag switch and the Strobe switch. Not sure what the third one is for. I am getting more information and will post it here, including the indentification of the switches and the brands. Compare this new photo: http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/PH_Switches.JPG With the photo from my aircraft: http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0935_2.JPG My investigation shows no burned terminals on my Wig-Wag, Landing or Taxi switches, although they did get warm. I do have inrush current limiters on the lighting circuits. My Strobe switch (photo) was toasted, literally, as shown in the second photo. What are the commonalities here? Both are from RV-9As but that's irrelevant. Both aircraft have problems with both the Strobe and Wig-Wag switches (and potentially Landing and Taxi circuits as well). Have yet to identify the switch manufacturers, but evidence is leaning towards brand-independence. Stay tuned. Vern ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:51 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs **Breaking News** From: "George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/TBM" Vern - I'm betting on sub-standard crimps in high-current circuits. As in not enough wire in the tube to make a proper crimp. For the sake of argument, let's call that a "light" crimp. A light crimp may withstand a tug-test, but then begin to loosen up under the vibration and heat cycles of normal operation. Heat cycles then accelerate deterioration of the joint. Neal ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:34 PM PST US From: "Vernon Little" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs **Breaking News** I've got some crimps into Bob for F/A, so we can test your theory. It's a bit worrisome, however, that (at least) three persons have had similar failures on their strobe switches, and two on their lamp switches. The other photo I provided is from a builder 3000 miles away, using the same fast-ons and presumably the same crimper. Vern > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/TBM > Sent: September 16, 2008 1:01 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Toggle Switches with Fast-On > Tabs **Breaking News** > > > > USAF ACC > --> 605 TES/TBM" > > Vern - > > I'm betting on sub-standard crimps in high-current circuits. > As in not enough wire in the tube to make a proper crimp. > For the sake of argument, let's call that a "light" crimp. A > light crimp may withstand a tug-test, but then begin to > loosen up under the vibration and heat cycles of normal > operation. Heat cycles then accelerate deterioration of the joint. > > Neal > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:57:00 PM PST US From: "Vernon Little" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs **Breaking News** More information from the new photo (friend's airplane). The Wig-Wag switch that is failing is from: http://www.apem.com/pdf/600H-600NH.pdf. It is a 644H. The wig-wag circuit is flashing an MR16 50W lamp. The HID landing light switch looks fine. Strobe is a Carling switch. More data.... maybe not more information, yet! Vern -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Little Sent: September 16, 2008 11:27 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs **Breaking News** One correction, there are only 2 switches affected in the photo, the third has a black tie-wrap on it! The two circuits that show distress (left to right) are the Wig-Wag and Strobe switches. I have confirmed that the Strobe switch is made by Carling, but the Wig-Wag brand has not been confirmed. Vern -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Little Sent: September 16, 2008 10:56 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs **Breaking News** Here's some breaking news for those following the burnt-switch thread: I am receipt of a photo from another builder that shows three switches with burnt fast-on tabs! He's identified that two of the switches are the Wig-Wag switch and the Strobe switch. Not sure what the third one is for. I am getting more information and will post it here, including the indentification of the switches and the brands. Compare this new photo: http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/PH_Switches.JPG With the photo from my aircraft: http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0935_2.JPG My investigation shows no burned terminals on my Wig-Wag, Landing or Taxi switches, although they did get warm. I do have inrush current limiters on the lighting circuits. My Strobe switch (photo) was toasted, literally, as shown in the second photo. What are the commonalities here? Both are from RV-9As but that's irrelevant. Both aircraft have problems with both the Strobe and Wig-Wag switches (and potentially Landing and Taxi circuits as well). Have yet to identify the switch manufacturers, but evidence is leaning towards brand-independence. Stay tuned. Vern href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:14 PM PST US From: Steve Stearns Subject: AeroElectric-List: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Well reasoned followup part1 Although there have been (as one would expect) a variety of replies to Marc Z's posting on canard-aviators, they were not (my opinion) informative to the same degree that would prompt me to cross-post. However, a posting today by Nick U. (another source that over the time I have been on canard-aviators has struck me as particularly credible) did seem so worthy. I do not anticipate any need to keep people abreast of any more messages on Canard-aviators beyond the posting from Nick U. For those with a particular interest in following the discussion as it continues to develop on this subject please follow it directly at the source: canard-aviators on groups.yahoo.com. Steve Stearns Boulder/Longmont, Colorado CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less) Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs) Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D ****************** From canard-aviators ******************** 10. Emag/Pmag Discussion Part 1 Posted by: "U-Nick" unick3@gmail.com unick3 Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:02 pm (PDT) Hi all, I wanted to provided an alternate viewpoint to the group discussion concerning Emagair based on my personal experience. In our canard community, I am positive I have the most years/flying hours in front a Pmag and have had many discussions with the owners of Emagair over the years. I can assure all of you, the owners of the company are absolutely committed to the success of Emagair, they listen to each purchasers input, are very open with information, spare no expense to make their electronic ignition the best product possible and try to do right by their customers. I have had a three failures over the years with my Pmag. All the failures were related to the series 112 optical sensor installation which was admittedly early in the development of the product line. In my particular case, I was comfortable early on with the risk I was taking using an unproven product. I just happen to hate mags and wanted something different. Over the years, my confidence with Emagair has grown and I have been lying with a 113 series for about 260 hrs with no problems (2.5 years). My success may be an isolated case in this community, but with over a thousand units out there, Emagair would not still be in business if there was major systemic problems, a high failure rate or they were totally unsafe to fly as some might indicate. This being said, I too share the concern others are expressing with the experience Marc had with his installation. After reading the latest series of emails, I decided to call Emagair to talk with the owner to find out the current news on the magnet cup issue. The reason for my involvement is solely because I am using their product and inadvertently happened to be at Oshkosh this year when Marc brought his failed 114 series Pmag to the Emagair booth and listened to the discussion. After seeing Marc's Emag and listening to his very valid and well reasoned points concerning mass, inertia, mounting system, thermal expansion, adhesive bonding issues, etc, I too could see there was a problem with the how the magnet was mounted on the shaft. Although Emagair had only seen one other case at that time of a loosened magnet assembly they felt this problem needed to be positively resolved. Resolution (part 2) Nick Ugolini Charleston, SC LongEZ-N29TM (2390 hrs), Cozy IV-N199V (restoring), Cozy 540RG (planning stage) Website: http://www.canardzone.com/members/nickugolini/ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:04 PM PST US From: Steve Stearns Subject: AeroElectric-List: E-Mag P-Mag Safety info - Well reasoned followup part2 The second part of Nick U's following message - Steve. *************** from canard-aviators ******************* 11. Emag/Pmag Discussion Part 2 Posted by: "U-Nick" unick3@gmail.com unick3 Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:02 pm (PDT) The Resolution: Immediately after returning from OSH, a in-house review of the assembly was initiated and a new magnet cup was designed by Emagair to address the concerns of how the magnet assembly is mounted. 1. The mass was significantly reduced from 9.4g to 3.7g. 2. The shaft now have keyway to lock the cup and shaft together. 3. Roll pins have been inserted through the cup and shaft to lock them in place. 4. No adhesive is being used (they are press fit into place) Additionally, a mechanical engineer who is deeply involved with the aviation field, with years of experience working with aviation engines was hired to do a top to bottom review of the mechanics of the ignition system including the magnetic cup assembly. The "fix" (keyway/rollpin) may be overkill (not I am not an expert in this area), but to me it is much more sensible and robust than the previous mounting system. In talking with Emagair the design might change again IF the engineer they hired determines this new mounting method is way too robust and can be further modified for ease of manufacturing and future reliability. The company has issued a service recall on their Pmag/Emag's to replace the magnet assembly. They will tear down the units, inspect them, replace bearings, seals, update electronics, etc free of charge. You only have to pay shipping one way (to them). If you wish to see the old and new cup assemblies, they have posted pictures on thier website under "Service Notes". On a side note, the electronics of the both the Pmag/Emag systems has been very reliable and they have seen very few issues in this area. For my part, I will not ground my plane and will continue to comfortably fly my Pmag with complete confidence. I still think it is a great product and it works very well in my installation. Before anyone has a bone to pick with me for my posts, I want to assure every I am not an advocate or have any involvement with this company. I am just a user of their product and want to provided a fuller picture of this issue based on my discussions with the company and my overall positive experience. That is what this group is all about isn't it? Sharing of information information. Nick Ugolini Charleston, SC LongEZ-N29TM (2390 hrs), Cozy IV-N199V (restoring), Cozy 540RG (planning stage) Website: http://www.canardzone.com/members/nickugolini/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.