---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/24/08: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:05 AM - Re: current draw (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 06:41 AM - Re: Source for welding cable? (Ron Raby) 3. 06:54 AM - Re: Z13/8 Aux Alternator Fuselink (Jeff Page) 4. 07:23 AM - Re: Source for welding cable? (Christopher Stone) 5. 07:36 AM - Re: Re: Z13/8 Aux Alternator Fuselink (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 09:37 AM - Re: Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs (Vernon Little) 7. 11:06 AM - Re: Source for welding cable? (Ron Raby) 8. 12:56 PM - Re: Source for welding cable? (rampil) 9. 12:58 PM - Re: Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs (B Tomm) 10. 02:21 PM - Re: Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs (Vernon Little) 11. 06:54 PM - Re: Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs (Dale Rogers) 12. 07:19 PM - Re: Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs (Vernon Little) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:29 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: current draw At 05:45 PM 9/23/2008 -0500, you wrote: >Can anyone tell me the expected current draw on a facet solid state fuel >pump? ( 12v - 2.5/4.5 psi ) Also on rac servos. Thanks Bill S. The Ray Allen servos draw about 500 mA fully loaded. Most folks systems use 100 mA or so. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:42 AM PST US From: "Ron Raby" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Source for welding cable? I have a surplus roll of # 2 welding cable aprox 120 feet left. Back in 2000 I paid 90 cents per foot. I also have the lugs 2.50 ea and the right crimper to put them on. I will make the cable with the lugs installed for the cost of the material. I also can put on a piece of red heat shrink if you want. Regards Ron Raby www.advanceddesign.com ----- Original Message ----- From: John McMahon To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 1:48 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Source for welding cable? Hi Sam, I got mine from Wiremasters. Sedveral of us have used them, Deb was very helpful and the price for all their wire was the best I found. Deb Sullivan Account Executive WireMasters, Inc. Phone: 800-635-5342 Fax: 615-791-6182 Email: dsullivan@ wiremasters.net Web site: http://www.wiremasters.net/ -- John McMahon Lancair Super ES, S/N 170, N9637M (Reserved) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:31 AM PST US From: "Jeff Page" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/8 Aux Alternator Fuselink > I believe the major idea here is that it's probably not worth your > productive $time$ to worry about it much. If you're wanting > to acquire a more academic understanding, then the task before > you is significant. You can start with AC43-13 and I can offer > some other references. I made my recommendations knowing that > the combination suggested was well inside the edges of the > voltage-drop/temperature-rise envelope. I guess I am looking for some basic approaches so i can choose the size of a fuselink. The wire charts easily allow me to select a wire size for currents based on voltage drop and temperature rise. Is there a chart for fuselinks ? AC43-13 doesn't seem to even mention the word. The AeroElectric Connection says to use 4 agw smaller for fuselinks, but this discourse indicates that is incorrect. Continuing on in the theme, what about protection for the wire that activates the battery contactor ? The diode will fail open, but what about a short internal to the contactor due to, say, mechanical failure ? There would be an unfused 4awg wire feeding huge currents through the switched wire to ground. Although an unlikely possiblilty, it would be ugly if it happened. What about a fuselink on it ? What size ? Thanks, Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:36 AM PST US From: Christopher Stone Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Source for welding cable? Sam... Check Waytek http://order.waytekwire.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB?WEBEVENT+L0F99F83E3041F200097A061+M37+ENG Chris Stone RV-8 Newberg, OR -----Original Message----- >From: Sam Hoskins >Sent: Sep 23, 2008 1:09 PM >To: Aerolectric List >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Source for welding cable? > >I'm looking for a place to get some good 4AWG welding cable. (Small amounts- >of course). I see McMaster-Carr has some, but I would prefer to get both >black and red. Does anyone have any sources? I see some on Ebay also. > >Sam Hoskins >Murphysboro, IL >www.samhoskins.blogspot.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:44 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/8 Aux Alternator Fuselink At 09:51 AM 9/24/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >> I believe the major idea here is that it's probably not worth your >> productive $time$ to worry about it much. If you're wanting >> to acquire a more academic understanding, then the task before >> you is significant. You can start with AC43-13 and I can offer >> some other references. I made my recommendations knowing that >> the combination suggested was well inside the edges of the >> voltage-drop/temperature-rise envelope. > >I guess I am looking for some basic approaches so i can choose the >size of a fuselink. The wire charts easily allow me to select a wire >size for currents based on voltage drop and temperature rise. Is >there a chart for fuselinks ? AC43-13 doesn't seem to even mention >the word. The AeroElectric Connection says to use 4 agw smaller for >fuselinks, but this discourse indicates that is incorrect. And it shouldn't. You need to review the writings I've posted on fusible links. I've cautioned that they are not replacements for fuses or circuit breakers. They are circuit protection with timing constants on the same order as the ANL current limiters and similar devices used in the automotive world. I do not recommend their use in any locations and/or sizes not illustrated in the Z-figures. You seldom see them incorporated into the Z-figures and there's a reason for that . . . >Continuing on in the theme, what about protection for the wire that >activates the battery contactor ? The diode will fail open, but what >about a short internal to the contactor due to, say, mechanical >failure ? There would be an unfused 4awg wire feeding huge currents >through the switched wire to ground. Although an unlikely >possiblilty, it would be ugly if it happened. What about a fuselink >on it ? What size ? The Z-figures are direct descendants of system architectures that go back 70 years or more. They've been crafted to illustrate architecture and protection philosophies that have been filtered through the production history of hundreds of thousands of airplanes. The fact that no "protection" is shown on any given wire is not accidental. I've never seen or heard of a coil suppression device failing in service. They are VERY lightly stressed as-installed. I.e., not worthy of additional concern for protection against failure. Adding circuit protection where none is shown/needed/recommended only increases parts count and drives system reliability down. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:59 AM PST US From: "Vernon Little" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs Update on my findings. One question that I had was if vibration could be working the rivets loose on the Carling switches. Given that I believe the rivets to be suspect to begin with-- even new switches have loose rivets-- vibration may be a trigger for a cascade of overheating problems. I took a photo of my switches from under the panel, seen here: http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0988_1.JPG. This photo shows the black sheathed wiring bundled which brings the airframe circuits to the panel, and the 2-3 inch pigtails to the switches. Based on my inspection, there may be a vibration coupling into the pigtails from the main bundle. Even though the bundle is secured every 8 inches or so, I was able to move it by hand in the vertical (pitch) dimension. Given the uncertainties here, I will not add more tie-downs to this bundle yet. I want to see if the switch replacement has done the trick. This may take a year or so to complete the experiment. If it solves the problem, we will know that the superior construction of the switches is a fix. If it does not, I will add tie downs to the bundle and re-run the experiment. The problem with doing both right now, is that we'll never know what the root cause was. I'm willing to sacrifice a few switches in the greater search for knowledge. At least this area is easy to get at! Vern ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:06:22 AM PST US From: "Ron Raby" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Source for welding cable? I also have some extraflex 4awg tin coated fine stranded copper wire. The marking on the wire say's awm I A/B 105C FT1 LL59358. not sure what that means. seems better than welding cable. I paid 1.88 a foot. I have both black and green. I will sell it for a buck a foot. Regards Ron Raby ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Raby To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 9:35 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Source for welding cable? I have a surplus roll of # 2 welding cable aprox 120 feet left. Back in 2000 I paid 90 cents per foot. I also have the lugs 2.50 ea and the right crimper to put them on. I will make the cable with the lugs installed for the cost of the material. I also can put on a piece of red heat shrink if you want. Regards Ron Raby www.advanceddesign.com ----- Original Message ----- From: John McMahon To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 1:48 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Source for welding cable? Hi Sam, I got mine from Wiremasters. Sedveral of us have used them, Deb was very helpful and the price for all their wire was the best I found. Deb Sullivan Account Executive WireMasters, Inc. Phone: 800-635-5342 Fax: 615-791-6182 Email: dsullivan@ wiremasters.net Web site: http://www.wiremasters.net/ -- John McMahon Lancair Super ES, S/N 170, N9637M (Reserved) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:56:07 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Source for welding cable? From: "rampil" for the few feet you probably need, it doesn't make sense to mail order it. any local welding supply will have appropriate cable. Welding cable by definition is fine stranded 100% copper. Buy a touch long since despite the fine stranding, it still has a significant bend radius -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 5988#205988 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:58:04 PM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs Vern, I agree with the experiment. Be sure to add a couple switches and tools to the A/C repair kit. Probably a good thing to have on all our airplanes especially when away from home base. Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Little Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 9:35 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs --> Update on my findings. One question that I had was if vibration could be working the rivets loose on the Carling switches. Given that I believe the rivets to be suspect to begin with-- even new switches have loose rivets-- vibration may be a trigger for a cascade of overheating problems. I took a photo of my switches from under the panel, seen here: http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0988_1.JPG. This photo shows the black sheathed wiring bundled which brings the airframe circuits to the panel, and the 2-3 inch pigtails to the switches. Based on my inspection, there may be a vibration coupling into the pigtails from the main bundle. Even though the bundle is secured every 8 inches or so, I was able to move it by hand in the vertical (pitch) dimension. Given the uncertainties here, I will not add more tie-downs to this bundle yet. I want to see if the switch replacement has done the trick. This may take a year or so to complete the experiment. If it solves the problem, we will know that the superior construction of the switches is a fix. If it does not, I will add tie downs to the bundle and re-run the experiment. The problem with doing both right now, is that we'll never know what the root cause was. I'm willing to sacrifice a few switches in the greater search for knowledge. At least this area is easy to get at! Vern ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:39 PM PST US From: "Vernon Little" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs Good idea. I'll keep the list posted on any developments. Vern > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of B Tomm > Sent: September 24, 2008 12:57 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs > > > > > > Vern, > > I agree with the experiment. Be sure to add a couple > switches and tools to the A/C repair kit. Probably a good > thing to have on all our airplanes especially when away from > home base. > > Bevan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of Vernon Little > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 9:35 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs > > --> > > Update on my findings. > > One question that I had was if vibration could be working the > rivets loose on the Carling switches. Given that I believe > the rivets to be suspect to begin with-- even new switches > have loose rivets-- vibration may be a trigger for a cascade > of overheating problems. > > I took a photo of my switches from under the panel, seen > here: > http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0988_1.JPG. > > This photo shows the black sheathed wiring bundled which > brings the airframe circuits to the panel, and the 2-3 inch > pigtails to the switches. > > Based on my inspection, there may be a vibration coupling > into the pigtails from the main bundle. Even though the > bundle is secured every 8 inches or so, I was able to move it > by hand in the vertical (pitch) dimension. > > Given the uncertainties here, I will not add more tie-downs > to this bundle yet. I want to see if the switch replacement > has done the trick. This may take a year or so to complete > the experiment. If it solves the problem, we will know that > the superior construction of the switches is a fix. If it > does not, I will add tie downs to the bundle and re-run the > experiment. > > The problem with doing both right now, is that we'll never > know what the root cause was. I'm willing to sacrifice a few > switches in the greater search for knowledge. At least this > area is easy to get at! > > Vern > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:07 PM PST US From: Dale Rogers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs Vernon Little wrote: > Update on my findings. > > One question that I had was if vibration could be working the rivets loose > on the Carling switches. Given that I believe the rivets to be suspect to > begin with-- even new switches have loose rivets-- vibration may be a > trigger for a cascade of overheating problems. > Vern, If you have loose rivets on a new switch, the manufacturer has a QA problem. A tab that is not held in intimate contact the inner component with sufficient force to resist movement by finger pressure has already begun to fail. If I got switches like that from two or more production lots, that manufacturer would be off my supplier list. Dale R. Mesa, AZ COZY MkIV #0497 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:11 PM PST US From: "Vernon Little" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs Yup, mine too. Do not archive. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of Dale Rogers > Sent: September 24, 2008 6:52 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Toggle Switches with Fast-On Tabs > > > > > Vernon Little wrote: > > Update on my findings. > > > > One question that I had was if vibration could be working > the rivets > > loose on the Carling switches. Given that I believe the > rivets to be > > suspect to begin with-- even new switches have loose rivets-- > > vibration may be a trigger for a cascade of overheating problems. > > > > Vern, > > If you have loose rivets on a new switch, the manufacturer > has a QA problem. A tab that is not held in intimate contact > the inner component with sufficient force to resist movement > by finger pressure has already begun to fail. > > If I got switches like that from two or more production > lots, that manufacturer would be off my supplier list. > > Dale R. > Mesa, AZ > COZY MkIV #0497 > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.