Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:55 AM - Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (David E. Nelson)
2. 12:33 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (Joe Ronco)
3. 12:46 PM - AeroElectric-list : [ Terry McMillan ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! (Email List PhotoShares)
4. 01:02 PM - Re: Split loom melting (Speedy11@aol.com)
5. 01:06 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (Steve Thomas)
6. 01:20 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (Greg Young)
7. 01:25 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (JOHN TIPTON)
8. 01:39 PM - Re: What is the best value battery right now? (S. Ramirez)
9. 02:22 PM - Electronic Ignition problem - any suggestions? (Peter Pengilly)
10. 02:39 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (David E. Nelson)
11. 03:22 PM - Re: Electronic Ignition problem - any suggestions? (Richard Girard)
12. 04:17 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 04:20 PM - Re: Electronic Ignition problem - any suggestions? (Ken)
14. 04:35 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (Lynn Riggs)
15. 04:40 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (David Nelson)
16. 04:41 PM - B&C Crowbar with diode (Sam Hoskins)
17. 04:46 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (Mike Humphrey)
18. 04:49 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (David Nelson)
19. 05:03 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (David Nelson)
20. 05:06 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (David Nelson)
21. 05:18 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 05:21 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 05:22 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 07:44 PM - Re: Re: Split loom melting (Ken)
25. 08:23 PM - Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing (Dale Rogers)
26. 09:34 PM - HAPPY Instrumentation on Jabiru 3300 (so far) (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
Hi Bob,
I'm having a heck of a time finding either brass or copper sheet/straps to
make the contactor-to-contactor buss bars. The 'KS Engineering'
(spelling?) display seems to have become quite rare in the likes of Lowes,
Home Depot, and Ace Hardware.
Looking around the shop, I was thinking of taking some 1/2" annealed (ie.
soft) copper tubing and flattening it out in a vise w/ smooth jaws to make
some ~3/4" "bar" with a thinkness of around .098" (I think the wall
thinkness is .049, IIRC). I was then thinking of silver soldering brass
washers though that that may be overkill.
If my math is right, this comes out to something around 93500 CM which is
somewhere between 1 and 0 AWG. While this may seem overkill, I chose 1/2"
over 3/8" tubing to allow plenty of edge distance (a little over 1/4")
around the 5/16" contactor bolts.
Do you have any concerns of using this method?
Thank you,
/\/elson
Message 2
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| Subject: | Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
DAVID: Go to http://www.mcmaster.com/ and search for Page 3610. There is a
large selection of copper bar stock.
Joe R
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David E.
Nelson
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 12:54 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing
<david.nelson@pobox.com>
Hi Bob,
I'm having a heck of a time finding either brass or copper sheet/straps to
make the contactor-to-contactor buss bars. The 'KS Engineering'
(spelling?) display seems to have become quite rare in the likes of Lowes,
Home Depot, and Ace Hardware.
Looking around the shop, I was thinking of taking some 1/2" annealed (ie.
soft) copper tubing and flattening it out in a vise w/ smooth jaws to make
some ~3/4" "bar" with a thinkness of around .098" (I think the wall
thinkness is .049, IIRC). I was then thinking of silver soldering brass
washers though that that may be overkill.
If my math is right, this comes out to something around 93500 CM which is
somewhere between 1 and 0 AWG. While this may seem overkill, I chose 1/2"
over 3/8" tubing to allow plenty of edge distance (a little over 1/4")
around the 5/16" contactor bolts.
Do you have any concerns of using this method?
Thank you,
/\/elson
Message 3
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| Subject: | AeroElectric-list : [ Terry McMillan ] : New Email |
List PhotoShare Available!
(Listers - Sorry for the delay in processing this Photoshare; all of the incoming
Photoshares where getting caught by my email client's spam filter. I wondered
why nobody had posted a Photoshare in a long while... I've fixed the filter
and Photoshares should be processed in a normal period of time now. -Matt)
A new Email List PhotoShare is available:
Poster: Terry McMillan <terryml5c2p6@sympatico.ca>
Lists: AeroElectric-list,RV-List,RV7-List,RV8-List,RV10-List,RV9-List
Subject: Dual Battery System
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/terryml5c2p6@sympatico.ca.10.06.2008
----------------------------------------------------------
o Main PhotoShare Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a PhotoShare
If you wish to submit a PhotoShare of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
----------------------------------------------------------
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Split loom melting |
Roger,
I'm using Thermo-Tec Thermo Sleeve tape to protect wiring exposed to heat.
It withstands 2000F so it should do well in all situations up to and
including a fire.
Here is a link to one source - although if you search the net a bit you can
find better prices.
_http://www.autobarn.net/thhowiprta.html_
(http://www.autobarn.net/thhowiprta.html)
On my hoses I used the thermo sleeve and on things that are
difficult/impossible to pull a sleeve on, I used the tape. It presents a much
nicer
appearance on the engine than standard red fire sleeve.
You could even use the sleeve and split it along the seam, cover the wires,
and then tape it with the thermo tape to hold it in place. I've also used
safety wire on the ends to hold it.
Another good option is sleeving that is designed for wires and can be slit
to fit on the wires. It's good to 750F and comes in several colors. You can
see it at _https://www.shopatron.com/product/part_number=17078/681.0_
(https://www.shopatron.com/product/part_number=17078/681.0)
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
I have experanced melting of some of the black split loom I used an
conduit to prevent wire chaffing in my engine compartment. One piese
that melted was 6 or 7 inches from the exhaust tube.
Note that this is a recent problem that has occured after I add some
additional heat shield due to heat discoloration on the inside of the
lower cowl,
Has anyone else had this problem?
Does anyone have any data on what temperatue exists in the engine
compartment?
As an aside I did some informal tests of the black split loom and it
burns and is not self extinguishing.
Are thre any good fire resistant alternatives?
New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining,
Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out!
(http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
Try a hobby store. They are most likely to have those products.
On Oct 6, 2008, at 11:54 AM, David E. Nelson wrote:
> >
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I'm having a heck of a time finding either brass or copper sheet/
> straps to make the contactor-to-contactor buss bars. The 'KS
> Engineering' (spelling?) display seems to have become quite rare in
> the likes of Lowes, Home Depot, and Ace Hardware.
>
> Looking around the shop, I was thinking of taking some 1/2" annealed
> (ie. soft) copper tubing and flattening it out in a vise w/ smooth
> jaws to make some ~3/4" "bar" with a thinkness of around .098" (I
> think the wall thinkness is .049, IIRC). I was then thinking of
> silver soldering brass washers though that that may be overkill.
>
> If my math is right, this comes out to something around 93500 CM
> which is somewhere between 1 and 0 AWG. While this may seem
> overkill, I chose 1/2" over 3/8" tubing to allow plenty of edge
> distance (a little over 1/4") around the 5/16" contactor bolts.
>
> Do you have any concerns of using this method?
>
> Thank you,
> /\/elson
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
I found the K&S display at a hobby shop. They might also be at craft stores.
In lieu of that, the flattened tubing is an accepted, time-honored method in
the experimental world.
Regards,
Greg Young
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of David E. Nelson
> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 1:54 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing
>
> --> <david.nelson@pobox.com>
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I'm having a heck of a time finding either brass or copper
> sheet/straps to make the contactor-to-contactor buss bars.
> The 'KS Engineering'
> (spelling?) display seems to have become quite rare in the
> likes of Lowes, Home Depot, and Ace Hardware.
>
> Looking around the shop, I was thinking of taking some 1/2"
> annealed (ie.
> soft) copper tubing and flattening it out in a vise w/ smooth
> jaws to make some ~3/4" "bar" with a thinkness of around
> .098" (I think the wall thinkness is .049, IIRC). I was then
> thinking of silver soldering brass washers though that that
> may be overkill.
>
> If my math is right, this comes out to something around 93500
> CM which is somewhere between 1 and 0 AWG. While this may
> seem overkill, I chose 1/2"
> over 3/8" tubing to allow plenty of edge distance (a little
> over 1/4") around the 5/16" contactor bolts.
>
> Do you have any concerns of using this method?
>
> Thank you,
> /\/elson
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
Why complicate things:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/2009Individual/Cat09466.pdf
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson@pobox.com>
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 7:54 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing
> <david.nelson@pobox.com>
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I'm having a heck of a time finding either brass or copper sheet/straps to
> make the contactor-to-contactor buss bars. The 'KS Engineering'
> (spelling?) display seems to have become quite rare in the likes of Lowes,
> Home Depot, and Ace Hardware.
>
> Looking around the shop, I was thinking of taking some 1/2" annealed (ie.
> soft) copper tubing and flattening it out in a vise w/ smooth jaws to make
> some ~3/4" "bar" with a thinkness of around .098" (I think the wall
> thinkness is .049, IIRC). I was then thinking of silver soldering brass
> washers though that that may be overkill.
>
> If my math is right, this comes out to something around 93500 CM which is
> somewhere between 1 and 0 AWG. While this may seem overkill, I chose 1/2"
> over 3/8" tubing to allow plenty of edge distance (a little over 1/4")
> around the 5/16" contactor bolts.
>
> Do you have any concerns of using this method?
>
> Thank you,
> /\/elson
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | What is the best value battery right now? |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What is the best value battery right now?
> How do you quantify "value"? Lacking data beyond statements
> like "My brand Z battery has been in the airplane 5 years
> and it still starts my engine" what qualities in a battery
> are most important to you. Further, how much $time$ are you
> willing to spend to acquire, maintain and monitor that battery
> for ability to meet your design goals?
>
> If you're a day vfr airplane, don't care about alternator-out
> endurance and will accept a risk of having to hand-prop the engine
> or replace a battery off the home field, then anecdotal offerings
> of 5-year service life may be useful to you.
>
> On the other hand, if you have a design goal of x.x hours alternator-
> out operation of the endurance bus then meeting the design goal
> is driven not only by the demonstrated robustness of the battery
> but your willingness to do periodic capacity tests to make sure
> the design goals are not violated.
>
> Right now, periodic capacity testing involves either running
> your e-bus from the battery and seeing how long it takes to
> get down to 11.0 volts -or- doing on-purpose capacity measurements
> with some device like . .
>http://westmountainradio.com/CBA.htm
> that will allow you to do a precise evaluation of your
> battery's ability to perform.
> Here's where you have to make a judgement of value based
> on the economics of $time$. You buy a battery for $time$,
> buy a piece of test equipment for $time$ and then invest
> $time$ at each determination for continued airworthiness
> against your design goals. Nobody can advise you as to
> the trade offs without knowing your personal quantification
> on $time$.
> I've often suggested that the highest value batter is that
> which meets all design goals with a minimum expenditure
> of $time$. Consider that if you buy the least expensive battery
> you can find, say . . .
>http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=522-1014-N
D
>http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=P231-ND
>http://www.batteryuniverse.com/Sealed-Lead-Acid/CSB/GH12170/GZ12180NB_CSB_G
H12170_Sealed-Lead-Acid
> and divide the cost of acquisition by hours flown per year
> and simply replace it every annual, you now have a hard data
> number for the cost of meeting your design goals.
> Periodic replacement of an inexpensive battery eliminates
> the $time$ one is tempted to invest in a $high-quality$ battery,
> $test-equipment$ and the $time$ to exercise that equipment
> until the battery finally shows that it's no longer airworthy.
> That's a decision that nobody can make for you. Further,
> lacking that detail in a value-study, your choice of product
> made from the anecdotal influences here on the List are
> not much better than basing it on a television advertisement.
> You will find a host of experiences ranging from "that's a
> piece of trash" to "best battery since they started slicing
> bread". Nobody is lying to you. Maybe nobody is trying to
> persuade you. But if you NEED for the battery to perform
> to some expectations for alternator-out endurance, none of
> this will be useful data for getting the most return on
> expenditure of your flying dollars.
> Bob . . .
I agree with Bob's analytical approach to engineering on this problem.
Earlier, I posted that the Odyssey battery is the cure all as the best
battery out there. I still believe it is, but Bob's approach is to find the
best value as a function of $TIME$, and this is what engineering is all
about. This approach often times doesn't find the longest life product as
the optimum choice. I just happen to have a history of being let down by
batteries at the most awkward times, once in an airplane and several times
in cars, so I have a tendency to over-react and deviate from the analytical
approach. It's called shotgun engineering. It's bad practice, and I should
know better, because I criticize others for it at work. However, in my own
personal application, I use it when it comes to batteries. I just happen to
post about the Odyssey battery because others posted about their success
with Odyssey batteries, and I, too, have had great success with them. If
you are cost-conscious, you should follow Bob's analytical approach to this
problem. It is true engineering.
Simon Ramirez
Do Not Archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Electronic Ignition problem - any suggestions? |
Hi All, I'm posting this for a friend who is not a member and is trying
to diagnose an electronic ignition problem. Any thoughts would be
gratefully received.
I have an interesting problem with my electronic ignition that I'd
appreciate further opinion on. My RV6 has an O-320 with a Slick magneto
on the left drive and Electroair EIS on the right drive. The EIS is a
dual coil, lost spark system (each coil fires 2 opposing cylinders on
both compression and exhaust stroke), and has been successfully operated
for 480 hours.
The problem is that each time I go to take off the engine misfires when
full power is applied. I am getting 2150 rpm static, and as the plane
accelerates at full power, after 10-15 seconds the engine starts to
misfire. The misfires occur at roughly 1-2 seconds frequency and last
for 200-700 milliseconds. There is never any backfiring.
I've conducted one flight, and found that as soon as I eased the climb
and reduced power, the problem went away. I was able to fly at 2,600 rpm
with no problems, and could not re-create the misfire whilst airborne.
Because there is no backfiring, I initially assumed a problem with fuel
supply. This has been eliminated, and I have been testing the ignition
system whilst static on the ground.
I connected an oscilloscope input to an ignition lead and the trace gave
large spikes at every 1/2 engine revolution as expected. However,
intermediate lower amplitude spikes were also observed at 2/3 to 3/4 of
the main spike period. This occurs throughout the full rev range,
including clean running.
I also tested the signal output from the magneto timing housing. It was
found to have irregular modulation and an irregular gap.
I don't know what signal the processor unit can tolerate, but I think
that the irregular signal from the timing sensor may be the issue.
However, the manufacturer still suggests that the charge is arcing out
through either the leads or plugs.
Having replaced both the leads and plugs, and that there's no evidence
or arcing through either the power or earth connections, I think it's a
fault with the unit.
One significant point is that when I turn off the EIS, the engine runs
perfectly on the single magneto. When the EIS is turned back on and the
misfire occurs, I would expect the magneto to continue firing as normal.
I think it probably is, but there's no fuel left to burn and the
misfiring is caused by wrongly timed sparks from the EIS igniting fuel
in the cylinders before the mixture is compressed and ignited by the
magneto.
Am I missing something? Any thoughts would be much appreciated
Regards, James
RV6 G-JSRV
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
Hi All,
It appears that I've miscommunicated my intentions via the subject line as
I should not have used the word 'buss-bar'. Sorry about that.
What I was aiming for was the big copper jumpers between the master relay,
starter contactor, and the ANL current limiter base that are mounted on
the firewall of an RV-7A.
Regards,
/\/elson
~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition problem - any suggestions? |
Peter, I once had a vehicle with a conventional points ignition system and
the same problems. The answer was exactly as Electroair is telling you. The
vehicle was an early Ford Econoline Van, the kind with the engine in a metal
doghouse between the driver and passenger seats. I left the cover off one
night to try and diagnose the misfiring by ear and sorted it out by eye
instead. Most amazing light show I've ever seen so close up. New plug wires
with a high temperature rated silicone insulation did the trick. If you're
running car plugs for the EIS system I'd make new plug wires, as A: it's the
quickest to eliminate on the list of probables, B: Costs little as airplane
parts go, C: If the condition doesn't change you're in a better position to
ask for more help from Electroair, and D: If it does work you're flyin'
again.
Rick
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com>wrote:
> peter@sportingaero.com>
>
> Hi All, I'm posting this for a friend who is not a member and is trying
> to diagnose an electronic ignition problem. Any thoughts would be
> gratefully received.
>
> I have an interesting problem with my electronic ignition that I'd
> appreciate further opinion on. My RV6 has an O-320 with a Slick magneto
> on the left drive and Electroair EIS on the right drive. The EIS is a
> dual coil, lost spark system (each coil fires 2 opposing cylinders on
> both compression and exhaust stroke), and has been successfully operated
> for 480 hours.
>
> The problem is that each time I go to take off the engine misfires when
> full power is applied. I am getting 2150 rpm static, and as the plane
> accelerates at full power, after 10-15 seconds the engine starts to
> misfire. The misfires occur at roughly 1-2 seconds frequency and last
> for 200-700 milliseconds. There is never any backfiring.
>
> I've conducted one flight, and found that as soon as I eased the climb
> and reduced power, the problem went away. I was able to fly at 2,600 rpm
> with no problems, and could not re-create the misfire whilst airborne.
> Because there is no backfiring, I initially assumed a problem with fuel
> supply. This has been eliminated, and I have been testing the ignition
> system whilst static on the ground.
>
> I connected an oscilloscope input to an ignition lead and the trace gave
> large spikes at every 1/2 engine revolution as expected. However,
> intermediate lower amplitude spikes were also observed at 2/3 to 3/4 of
> the main spike period. This occurs throughout the full rev range,
> including clean running.
>
> I also tested the signal output from the magneto timing housing. It was
> found to have irregular modulation and an irregular gap.
>
> I don't know what signal the processor unit can tolerate, but I think
> that the irregular signal from the timing sensor may be the issue.
> However, the manufacturer still suggests that the charge is arcing out
> through either the leads or plugs.
>
> Having replaced both the leads and plugs, and that there's no evidence
> or arcing through either the power or earth connections, I think it's a
> fault with the unit.
>
> One significant point is that when I turn off the EIS, the engine runs
> perfectly on the single magneto. When the EIS is turned back on and the
> misfire occurs, I would expect the magneto to continue firing as normal.
> I think it probably is, but there's no fuel left to burn and the
> misfiring is caused by wrongly timed sparks from the EIS igniting fuel
> in the cylinders before the mixture is compressed and ignited by the
> magneto.
>
> Am I missing something? Any thoughts would be much appreciated
>
> Regards, James
> RV6 G-JSRV
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
At 01:25 PM 10/6/2008 -0600, you wrote:
>
>DAVID: Go to http://www.mcmaster.com/ and search for Page 3610. There is a
>large selection of copper bar stock.
>
>Joe R
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David E.
>Nelson
>Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 12:54 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing
>
><david.nelson@pobox.com>
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I'm having a heck of a time finding either brass or copper sheet/straps to
>make the contactor-to-contactor buss bars. The 'KS Engineering'
>(spelling?) display seems to have become quite rare in the likes of Lowes,
>Home Depot, and Ace Hardware.
>
>Looking around the shop, I was thinking of taking some 1/2" annealed (ie.
>soft) copper tubing and flattening it out in a vise w/ smooth jaws to make
>some ~3/4" "bar" with a thinkness of around .098" (I think the wall
>thinkness is .049, IIRC). I was then thinking of silver soldering brass
>washers though that that may be overkill.
>
>If my math is right, this comes out to something around 93500 CM which is
>somewhere between 1 and 0 AWG. While this may seem overkill, I chose 1/2"
>over 3/8" tubing to allow plenty of edge distance (a little over 1/4")
>around the 5/16" contactor bolts.
>
>Do you have any concerns of using this method?
What you propose is probably okay but a lot of
work. Joe had a good solution. 4AWG equivalent
is sufficient for between contactor jumpers.
4AWG is .2" diam, or 0.031 square inches of copper.
This says .031" x 1" would do. One inch is a bit
wide and .031 is thin to work with so take a look
at 8964K712 at http://Mcmaster.com
It's 3/4 wide x .062 thick for 0.043 square inches
for about a 3AWG equivalent. Plenty robust and it will
look a whole lot nicer when you're done.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition problem - any suggestions? |
I wouldn't waste any time thinking about this until first replacing the
spark plugs (seriously) and then the wires but apparently that has been
done. I've also seen failing ignition coils do what you describe.
Electroair coils look like GM automotive coils which would mean they may
be cheap to replace??
A multi tooth pickup wheel will have a repeating irregular pulse pattern
AND the pulse voltage will vary accordingly. All teeth are not evenly
spaced or there is at least one tooth missing to establish timing. I
don't know how reliable the Electroair pickup has been but it would not
be my first suspect.
A scope will show an amazing amount of noise on both primary and
secondary sides of these coils. As long as it is a regular repeating
pattern, it is probably normal. Yes they are of similar voltage to what
fires the plugs. I'd only be suspicious if they are non repeating spikes.
Ken
Peter Pengilly wrote:
>
> Hi All, I'm posting this for a friend who is not a member and is trying
> to diagnose an electronic ignition problem. Any thoughts would be
> gratefully received.
>
> I have an interesting problem with my electronic ignition that I'd
> appreciate further opinion on. My RV6 has an O-320 with a Slick magneto
> on the left drive and Electroair EIS on the right drive. The EIS is a
> dual coil, lost spark system (each coil fires 2 opposing cylinders on
> both compression and exhaust stroke), and has been successfully operated
> for 480 hours.
>
> The problem is that each time I go to take off the engine misfires when
> full power is applied. I am getting 2150 rpm static, and as the plane
> accelerates at full power, after 10-15 seconds the engine starts to
> misfire. The misfires occur at roughly 1-2 seconds frequency and last
> for 200-700 milliseconds. There is never any backfiring.
>
> I've conducted one flight, and found that as soon as I eased the climb
> and reduced power, the problem went away. I was able to fly at 2,600 rpm
> with no problems, and could not re-create the misfire whilst airborne.
> Because there is no backfiring, I initially assumed a problem with fuel
> supply. This has been eliminated, and I have been testing the ignition
> system whilst static on the ground.
>
> I connected an oscilloscope input to an ignition lead and the trace gave
> large spikes at every 1/2 engine revolution as expected. However,
> intermediate lower amplitude spikes were also observed at 2/3 to 3/4 of
> the main spike period. This occurs throughout the full rev range,
> including clean running.
>
> I also tested the signal output from the magneto timing housing. It was
> found to have irregular modulation and an irregular gap.
>
> I don't know what signal the processor unit can tolerate, but I think
> that the irregular signal from the timing sensor may be the issue.
> However, the manufacturer still suggests that the charge is arcing out
> through either the leads or plugs.
>
> Having replaced both the leads and plugs, and that there's no evidence
> or arcing through either the power or earth connections, I think it's a
> fault with the unit.
>
> One significant point is that when I turn off the EIS, the engine runs
> perfectly on the single magneto. When the EIS is turned back on and the
> misfire occurs, I would expect the magneto to continue firing as normal.
> I think it probably is, but there's no fuel left to burn and the
> misfiring is caused by wrongly timed sparks from the EIS igniting fuel
> in the cylinders before the mixture is compressed and ignited by the
> magneto.
>
> Am I missing something? Any thoughts would be much appreciated
>
> Regards, James
> RV6 G-JSRV
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
Try here.
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218
Lynn A. Riggs
http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
----- Original Message ----
From: David E. Nelson <david.nelson@pobox.com>
Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 12:54:05 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing
Hi Bob,
I'm having a heck of a time finding either brass or copper sheet/straps to
make the contactor-to-contactor buss bars. The 'KS Engineering'
(spelling?) display seems to have become quite rare in the likes of Lowes,
Home Depot, and Ace Hardware.
Looking around the shop, I was thinking of taking some 1/2" annealed (ie.
soft) copper tubing and flattening it out in a vise w/ smooth jaws to make
some ~3/4" "bar" with a thinkness of around .098" (I think the wall
thinkness is .049, IIRC). I was then thinking of silver soldering brass
washers though that that may be overkill.
If my math is right, this comes out to something around 93500 CM which is
somewhere between 1 and 0 AWG. While this may seem overkill, I chose 1/2"
over 3/8" tubing to allow plenty of edge distance (a little over 1/4")
around the 5/16" contactor bolts.
Do you have any concerns of using this method?
Thank you,
/\/elson
Message 15
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| Subject: | Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
Hi Joe,
Thanks for the lead. Wow, McMaster just seems to have everything. Wouldn't it
be nice to be able to just stroll through the isles?
Anyways, looked at the available stock. They seem to only stock "Temper: Hard
(H04)" for the sizes that I'm interested in. Just how "hard" is H04? I need
to be able to put either a 90 deg bend or a twist (depending on where I put the
ANL current limiter block).
Thanks,
/\/elson
On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Joe Ronco wrote:
>
> DAVID: Go to http://www.mcmaster.com/ and search for Page 3610. There is a
> large selection of copper bar stock.
>
> Joe R
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David E.
> Nelson
> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 12:54 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing
>
> <david.nelson@pobox.com>
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I'm having a heck of a time finding either brass or copper sheet/straps to
> make the contactor-to-contactor buss bars. The 'KS Engineering'
> (spelling?) display seems to have become quite rare in the likes of Lowes,
> Home Depot, and Ace Hardware.
>
> Looking around the shop, I was thinking of taking some 1/2" annealed (ie.
> soft) copper tubing and flattening it out in a vise w/ smooth jaws to make
> some ~3/4" "bar" with a thinkness of around .098" (I think the wall
> thinkness is .049, IIRC). I was then thinking of silver soldering brass
> washers though that that may be overkill.
>
> If my math is right, this comes out to something around 93500 CM which is
> somewhere between 1 and 0 AWG. While this may seem overkill, I chose 1/2"
> over 3/8" tubing to allow plenty of edge distance (a little over 1/4")
> around the 5/16" contactor bolts.
>
> Do you have any concerns of using this method?
>
> Thank you,
> /\/elson
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | B&C Crowbar with diode |
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
Nelson,
AircraftSpruce, Wag aero, Chief, Onlinemetals.com sell the copper bar that
you need.
Mike H 9A/8A
----- Original Message -----
From: "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson@pobox.com>
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 2:54 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing
> <david.nelson@pobox.com>
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I'm having a heck of a time finding either brass or copper sheet/straps to
> make the contactor-to-contactor buss bars. The 'KS Engineering'
> (spelling?) display seems to have become quite rare in the likes of Lowes,
> Home Depot, and Ace Hardware.
>
> Looking around the shop, I was thinking of taking some 1/2" annealed (ie.
> soft) copper tubing and flattening it out in a vise w/ smooth jaws to make
> some ~3/4" "bar" with a thinkness of around .098" (I think the wall
> thinkness is .049, IIRC). I was then thinking of silver soldering brass
> washers though that that may be overkill.
>
> If my math is right, this comes out to something around 93500 CM which is
> somewhere between 1 and 0 AWG. While this may seem overkill, I chose 1/2"
> over 3/8" tubing to allow plenty of edge distance (a little over 1/4")
> around the 5/16" contactor bolts.
>
> Do you have any concerns of using this method?
>
> Thank you,
> /\/elson
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
Hi Steve,
That was next on my list. Honestly, I'm getting tired of driving around with
zero results and dumb looks by clerks/staff. While I could phone ahead to some
of the places, getting somebody knowledgeable has, in the past, proven to be
somewhat of an "experience".
The materials I listed I've in the garage and I could assemble them in little
time. I'm hoping that Bob will look favorably at my approach and maybe help
somebody else that may be in the same situation as me. If not, that's Ok, too.
Then on to "Plan B" - whatever that might be. ;)
Thanks,
/\/elson
On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Steve Thomas wrote:
>
> Try a hobby store. They are most likely to have those products.
>
>
> On Oct 6, 2008, at 11:54 AM, David E. Nelson wrote:
>
>> <david.nelson@pobox.com>
>>
>>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> I'm having a heck of a time finding either brass or copper sheet/straps to
>> make the contactor-to-contactor buss bars. The 'KS Engineering'
>> (spelling?) display seems to have become quite rare in the likes of Lowes,
>> Home Depot, and Ace Hardware.
>>
>> Looking around the shop, I was thinking of taking some 1/2" annealed (ie.
>> soft) copper tubing and flattening it out in a vise w/ smooth jaws to make
>> some ~3/4" "bar" with a thinkness of around .098" (I think the wall
>> thinkness is .049, IIRC). I was then thinking of silver soldering brass
>> washers though that that may be overkill.
>>
>> If my math is right, this comes out to something around 93500 CM which is
>> somewhere between 1 and 0 AWG. While this may seem overkill, I chose 1/2"
>> over 3/8" tubing to allow plenty of edge distance (a little over 1/4")
>> around the 5/16" contactor bolts.
>>
>> Do you have any concerns of using this method?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> /\/elson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
Hi Bob,
Thank you for replying. From Joe's email, I was reviewing the selections.
I'll either need to twist or bend a tab from the relay/contactor to the ANL
current limiter block. My main concern here is the 'Hard (H04) Temper'
characteristic. I have no idea how to relate to 'H04'. Do you have any
comparative annecdotes? ;)
Thank you,
/\/elson
On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>
> At 01:25 PM 10/6/2008 -0600, you wrote:
>>
>> DAVID: Go to http://www.mcmaster.com/ and search for Page 3610. There is a
>> large selection of copper bar stock.
>>
>> Joe R
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David E.
>> Nelson
>> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 12:54 PM
>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing
>>
>> <david.nelson@pobox.com>
>>
>>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> I'm having a heck of a time finding either brass or copper sheet/straps to
>> make the contactor-to-contactor buss bars. The 'KS Engineering'
>> (spelling?) display seems to have become quite rare in the likes of Lowes,
>> Home Depot, and Ace Hardware.
>>
>> Looking around the shop, I was thinking of taking some 1/2" annealed (ie.
>> soft) copper tubing and flattening it out in a vise w/ smooth jaws to make
>> some ~3/4" "bar" with a thinkness of around .098" (I think the wall
>> thinkness is .049, IIRC). I was then thinking of silver soldering brass
>> washers though that that may be overkill.
>>
>> If my math is right, this comes out to something around 93500 CM which is
>> somewhere between 1 and 0 AWG. While this may seem overkill, I chose 1/2"
>> over 3/8" tubing to allow plenty of edge distance (a little over 1/4")
>> around the 5/16" contactor bolts.
>>
>> Do you have any concerns of using this method?
>
> What you propose is probably okay but a lot of
> work. Joe had a good solution. 4AWG equivalent
> is sufficient for between contactor jumpers.
> 4AWG is .2" diam, or 0.031 square inches of copper.
> This says .031" x 1" would do. One inch is a bit
> wide and .031 is thin to work with so take a look
> at 8964K712 at http://Mcmaster.com
>
> It's 3/4 wide x .062 thick for 0.043 square inches
> for about a 3AWG equivalent. Plenty robust and it will
> look a whole lot nicer when you're done.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
Hi Lynn,
I considered that part with my recent order from B&C. However, from a previous
email on this list (dated Sun, 18 May 2008 13:15:58 -0500), the .5" width was
considered marginal for the edge distance even though it has performed well in
the field. I was looking for a better alternative.
Thanks,
/\/elson
On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Lynn Riggs wrote:
>
> Try here.
> http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218
>
> Lynn A. Riggs
> http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: David E. Nelson <david.nelson@pobox.com>
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 12:54:05 PM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing
>
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I'm having a heck of a time finding either brass or copper sheet/straps to
> make the contactor-to-contactor buss bars. The 'KS Engineering'
> (spelling?) display seems to have become quite rare in the likes of Lowes,
> Home Depot, and Ace Hardware.
>
> Looking around the shop, I was thinking of taking some 1/2" annealed (ie.
> soft) copper tubing and flattening it out in a vise w/ smooth jaws to make
> some ~3/4" "bar" with a thinkness of around .098" (I think the wall
> thinkness is .049, IIRC). I was then thinking of silver soldering brass
> washers though that that may be overkill.
>
> If my math is right, this comes out to something around 93500 CM which is
> somewhere between 1 and 0 AWG. While this may seem overkill, I chose 1/2"
> over 3/8" tubing to allow plenty of edge distance (a little over 1/4")
> around the 5/16" contactor bolts.
>
> Do you have any concerns of using this method?
>
> Thank you,
> /\/elson
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
At 06:49 PM 10/6/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi Steve,
>
>That was next on my list. Honestly, I'm getting tired of driving around
>with zero results and dumb looks by clerks/staff. While I could phone
>ahead to some of the places, getting somebody knowledgeable has, in the
>past, proven to be somewhat of an "experience".
>
>The materials I listed I've in the garage and I could assemble them in
>little time. I'm hoping that Bob will look favorably at my approach and
>maybe help somebody else that may be in the same situation as me. If not,
>that's Ok, too. Then on to "Plan B" - whatever that might be. ;)
Many folks have done what you've proposed. I'm aware
of no particular difficulties.
Bob . . .
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
At 07:06 PM 10/6/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi Lynn,
>
>I considered that part with my recent order from B&C. However, from a
>previous email on this list (dated Sun, 18 May 2008 13:15:58 -0500), the
>.5" width was considered marginal for the edge distance even though it has
>performed well in the field. I was looking for a better alternative.
That IS bus bar stock made from brass (several
times higher resistance than copper) but narrow
enough for use at the relatively low currents
experienced at the breaker panel.
For conductors in the cranking current path,
real copper is much better.
Bob. . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
At 07:00 PM 10/6/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Thank you for replying. From Joe's email, I was reviewing the selections.
>I'll either need to twist or bend a tab from the relay/contactor to the
>ANL current limiter block. My main concern here is the 'Hard (H04) Temper'
>characteristic. I have no idea how to relate to 'H04'. Do you have any
>comparative annecdotes? ;)
I don't think you're going to find copper in any
harness that will make your task difficult.
Bob . . .
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: Split loom melting |
It is more likely radiant energy than actual air temperature that is the
problem. Perhaps your new heat shield is reflecting some heat back
toward your wiring?? Some low dollar solutions that I've used include:
For mild exposure, wrapping the exposed section of wire etc. with
silicone tape will reflect some heat and that nicely protects a rubber
engine mount for me. Silicone is good for up to at least 500F surface
temp. This is essentially what the outer layer of fire sleeve is
composed of I believe.
Wrapping with aluminum foil reflects even more heat.
A metal heat shield between the exhaust and the wires or hoses that are
exposed is probably preferred if you can't relocate the wires. I have
not had any problem with 0.020 aluminum shields even when quite close to
exhaust pipes.
Ken
>
> I have experanced melting of some of the black split loom I used an
> conduit to prevent wire chaffing in my engine compartment. One piese
> that melted was 6 or 7 inches from the exhaust tube.
>
> Note that this is a recent problem that has occured after I add some
> additional heat shield due to heat discoloration on the inside of the
> lower cowl,
>
> Has anyone else had this problem?
>
> Does anyone have any data on what temperatue exists in the engine
> compartment?
>
> As an aside I did some informal tests of the black split loom and it
> burns and is not self extinguishing.
> Are thre any good fire resistant alternatives?
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Copper buss-bar from copper tubing |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>
> At 07:00 PM 10/6/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>> <david.nelson@pobox.com>
>>
>>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> Thank you for replying. From Joe's email, I was reviewing the
>> selections. I'll either need to twist or bend a tab from the
>> relay/contactor to the ANL current limiter block. My main concern
>> here is the 'Hard (H04) Temper' characteristic. I have no idea how to
>> relate to 'H04'. Do you have any comparative annecdotes? ;)
>
> I don't think you're going to find copper in any
> harness that will make your task difficult.
>
> Bob . . .
And ... flattening the ends of copper tubing will work-harden it. You
may want to anneal it after you get the fit right.
Dale R.
COZY MkIV #0497
Ch. 13
Message 26
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| Subject: | HAPPY Instrumentation on Jabiru 3300 (so far) |
-ain't breakin' out the Champagne yet, but here is current synopsis:
Further analysis determines that due to FWF packaging considerations the VDO
fuel pressure sender provided by GRT with the EIS package is located about
1" from the right magneto harness and about 3" from the automotive-style
distributor. Suspicion is that arcing between the rotor and distributor cap is
impressing emf pulses on the sender somehow. Removing the 2 wires to the
sender result in zero spikes on the EGT/CHT traces and any other phantom alarms.
Hmmm... Victim identified? Fuel hoses to sender are lengthened and an
extension for the electrical connections is fabricated from 22AWG wire using
faston connectors- this "pigtail" is about 12" in length with the wires tightly
twisted. Idea is to experiment with sender location by manually moving it
around in the engine compartment with engine running and review effects on EGT
trace spikes.
On initial engine start, trace spikes are completely gone, regardless of
sender positioning or orientation between the engine and firewall. Locating
sender in close proximity to either distributor or magneto results in clean
spike-free EGT traces. Sender is re-mounted to engine mount about 2" farther
away from previous location to magneto harness with pigtail still installed.
EIS is fat, dumb & happy with no phantom alarms, no spikes present on EGT or
CHT traces.
Ya think I'd be shickled titless by this, but I can't explain WHY, dammit...
Measured resistance using a Fluke multimeter indicates .2 ohms on each lead
of extension. Here's the question: Is it the additional resistance in the
connections to the sender (length of extension), or the fact that they are
tightly twisted (about 10 turns per inch) that resolved (band-aided?) this issue?
"Problem" "appears" to be solved, but without knowing why. Serendipity? I
don't buy it. Awaiting knowledgeable insights or explanations...
A big THANKS! for all of those who have chimed in with their thoughts and
suggestions...
Mark
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