Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:12 AM - Re: BatteryMinder and "boil-over" (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 05:37 AM - Re: BatteryMinder and "boil-over" (Harley)
3. 05:54 AM - Re: BatteryMinder and "boil-over" (paul wilson)
4. 06:14 AM - Re: 20 Amp Solid State Relay (C William Sallas)
5. 09:42 AM - For Sale: BMA EFIS system. (kentb)
6. 10:13 AM - Re: 20 Amp Solid State Relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 10:34 AM - Re: Dimmer Control Units (Phil Samuelian)
8. 11:04 AM - Re: BatteryMinder and "boil-over" (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 11:19 AM - Re: Dimmer Control Units (Bruce Gray)
10. 03:41 PM - Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Brantel)
11. 05:50 PM - Re: panel dimmers? (Phil Samuelian)
Message 1
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| Subject: | BatteryMinder and "boil-over" |
At 09:26 PM 10/8/2008 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>No, it is not an RG battery - just a standard lead-acid battery. Looking at
>the Concorde website, I think it is a CB-35A. It is my understanding that
>the BatteryMinder is ok for this type of battery. Is that not true??
>
>Ok, will test it further.
>
>Thanks for the input!
>
>Jon
There's a lot of floobydust being thrown in the
air about suitability-to-task for the various
offerings in "smart chargers". Each manufacturer
has to figure out a way to make their product more
attractive to the consumer than their competition.
But it's beginning to be like laundry soap . . .
there's only so much you can do to make it "new
and improved" before practical benefits become
obscured by marketing hype.
The modus operandi for the vast majority of batteries
in mobile dc power supplies is such that they NEVER
see a plug-in-the-wall charger over the lifetime
of the battery. Consumers run'em 'til they drop and
put in new one. The benchmark for goodness is measured
in months of service . . . under as-installed operating
conditions.
Potions and notions for improved battery service life
have been around for decades. I recall ads in magazines
from when I was a kid touting magic juice or tablets that
one could put into a battery that would "rejuvenate
your ailing battery." The sundry notions for de-sulfating
an ageing battery by electrically hammering the oversized
crystals is another idea that has yet to emerge as a
"good thing to do" everywhere, all the time. One of the
things that consumers seldom considered was the value
of technological competition amongst battery makers and
alternator/regulator makers. If any after market enhancement
has a real return on investment, then the folks who make
millions of them every year have a greater interest
in the idea than the guy selling battery potions out
of the trunk of his car. I.e, if this is such a
good thing to do, why isn't it already being done?
Getting back to the Battery Tender as suited to task
on the flooded battery, ALL lead-acid batteries have
one thing in common . . . self discharge in storage.
I'm told that a strong forcing factor is the amount
of dissolved oxygen in the electrolyte. Sealed batteries
have very little, flooded batteries have a lot but
BOTH batteries will eventually run down just sitting.
The real goal of a battery maintenance charger is to
support the battery at some voltage just above its
open circuit potential at rest. This is a voltage
too low to overcharge the battery . . . but sufficient
to have self discharge currents be totally picked up
by the external energy supply. Once the battery
maintenance device senses that the battery is "topped
off" . . . it needs to shift gears from a CHARGER
to MAINTAINER like:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_3.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_5.jpg
Now, one can slice and dice the charge modes into
finely tuned recipes for success depending on laboratory
studies of optimum performance for each battery
technology . . . AGM, gel and flooded. But if one
compares the way batteries are charged in-situ in
millions of vehicles . . . NONE are treated anything
like the optimized recipe for success. Yet millions
of consumers perceive satisfactory service-life for
their purchase. I.e, I've been stuffing new batteries
into vehicles for 50 years and have returned very
few devices for warranty replacement. The rest performed
well enough to avoid any notions of "Gee, that last
battery was a piece of crap . . . not going to buy
THAT brand again."
I have observed battery performance in the wild
and in aircraft systems for decades. I have concluded
that customers who perceived poor return on investment
for their battery purchase WOULD NOT have found relief
by plugged the thing in the wall every night and punching
the "right" button for AGM, gel or flooded technology.
If you have a battery that demonstrates loss of water
while "plugged in", it is likely that the maintenance
voltage is too high. This would be true of any lead-acid
battery technology.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: BatteryMinder and "boil-over" |
Morning, Jon...
This reminds me of an similar ongoing problem I used to have with the
fork truck and material handling vehicle operators where I used to
work. It was a pharmaceutical plant, so internal combustion engines
were not allowed, and they were all electric.
I could never get the operators to stop refilling the batteries
(actually OVERFILLING) and then putting them on charge. The next
morning, the fork truck would be sitting in a pool of acid/water as it
boiled over when charged.
So, since you mentioned that the fluid level barely covered the plates,
is it possible that he is refilling the battery and then charging it?
And could this sequence cause the boil over?
Harley
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Finley wrote:
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> No, it is not an RG battery - just a standard lead-acid battery. Looking at
> the Concorde website, I think it is a CB-35A. It is my understanding that
> the BatteryMinder is ok for this type of battery. Is that not true??
>
> Ok, will test it further.
>
> Thanks for the input!
>
> Jon
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 7:21 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BatteryMinder and "boil-over"
>
>
> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>
> At 12:44 PM 10/8/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have a friend with a C-195 that has had a BatteryMinder on his battery
>> (Concorde) for the last several weeks.
>>
>
> A Concorde RG battery?
>
>
>> He found a bunch of residue (white flaky stuff) had come out of the
>> battery overflow tube during this time and was concerned. I assume this
>> is just due to boil-over but am looking for more information to give
>> him. Oh, the battery fluid level following this was just a hair above
>> the top of the plates.
>>
>> Any thoughts??
>>
>
> It's in the genes of true battery maintainers not
> to outgas ANY battery, flooded or sealed. If he's
> loosing liquid under charge/maintain cycles from
> a Battery Minder, then the charger is defective.
> It's easy to tell. A few hours after the Battery
> Minder's indicator light turns green . . . measure
> the voltage on the battery. It should be 13.8 volts
> MAX and ideally about 13.2 volts.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Agelesswings certifies that no virus is in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | BatteryMinder and "boil-over" |
And the Schumacher mentioned maintainer has gone for $17+ to 20+
yesterday at Walmart since I bought the last one. Still a good buy
for what it does for batteries in storage.
Part number changed and they have a different box and the
instructions & how it works on a label on the top of the unit. New
number is SEM-1562A old # was WM-1562A.
Paul
====================
At 05:10 AM 10/9/2008, you wrote:
><nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>
>At 09:26 PM 10/8/2008 -0600, you wrote:
>>
>>Hi Bob,
>>
>>No, it is not an RG battery - just a standard lead-acid battery. Looking at
>>the Concorde website, I think it is a CB-35A. It is my understanding that
>>the BatteryMinder is ok for this type of battery. Is that not true??
>>
>>Ok, will test it further.
>>
>>Thanks for the input!
>>
>>Jon
>
> There's a lot of floobydust being thrown in the
> air about suitability-to-task for the various
> offerings in "smart chargers". Each manufacturer
> has to figure out a way to make their product more
> attractive to the consumer than their competition.
> But it's beginning to be like laundry soap . . .
> there's only so much you can do to make it "new
> and improved" before practical benefits become
> obscured by marketing hype.
>
> The modus operandi for the vast majority of batteries
> in mobile dc power supplies is such that they NEVER
> see a plug-in-the-wall charger over the lifetime
> of the battery. Consumers run'em 'til they drop and
> put in new one. The benchmark for goodness is measured
> in months of service . . . under as-installed operating
> conditions.
>
> Potions and notions for improved battery service life
> have been around for decades. I recall ads in magazines
> from when I was a kid touting magic juice or tablets that
> one could put into a battery that would "rejuvenate
> your ailing battery." The sundry notions for de-sulfating
> an ageing battery by electrically hammering the oversized
> crystals is another idea that has yet to emerge as a
> "good thing to do" everywhere, all the time. One of the
> things that consumers seldom considered was the value
> of technological competition amongst battery makers and
> alternator/regulator makers. If any after market enhancement
> has a real return on investment, then the folks who make
> millions of them every year have a greater interest
> in the idea than the guy selling battery potions out
> of the trunk of his car. I.e, if this is such a
> good thing to do, why isn't it already being done?
>
> Getting back to the Battery Tender as suited to task
> on the flooded battery, ALL lead-acid batteries have
> one thing in common . . . self discharge in storage.
> I'm told that a strong forcing factor is the amount
> of dissolved oxygen in the electrolyte. Sealed batteries
> have very little, flooded batteries have a lot but
> BOTH batteries will eventually run down just sitting.
>
> The real goal of a battery maintenance charger is to
> support the battery at some voltage just above its
> open circuit potential at rest. This is a voltage
> too low to overcharge the battery . . . but sufficient
> to have self discharge currents be totally picked up
> by the external energy supply. Once the battery
> maintenance device senses that the battery is "topped
> off" . . . it needs to shift gears from a CHARGER
> to MAINTAINER like:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_3.jpg
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_5.jpg
>
> Now, one can slice and dice the charge modes into
> finely tuned recipes for success depending on laboratory
> studies of optimum performance for each battery
> technology . . . AGM, gel and flooded. But if one
> compares the way batteries are charged in-situ in
> millions of vehicles . . . NONE are treated anything
> like the optimized recipe for success. Yet millions
> of consumers perceive satisfactory service-life for
> their purchase. I.e, I've been stuffing new batteries
> into vehicles for 50 years and have returned very
> few devices for warranty replacement. The rest performed
> well enough to avoid any notions of "Gee, that last
> battery was a piece of crap . . . not going to buy
> THAT brand again."
>
> I have observed battery performance in the wild
> and in aircraft systems for decades. I have concluded
> that customers who perceived poor return on investment
> for their battery purchase WOULD NOT have found relief
> by plugged the thing in the wall every night and punching
> the "right" button for AGM, gel or flooded technology.
>
> If you have a battery that demonstrates loss of water
> while "plugged in", it is likely that the maintenance
> voltage is too high. This would be true of any lead-acid
> battery technology.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 20 Amp Solid State Relay |
I was planning on using them for Master Battery Contactor, Starter
Contactor, Ground Power Relay, and Avionics Master Relay.
Message 5
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| Subject: | For Sale: BMA EFIS system. |
Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS Sport and Lite with AutoPilot. It has been in my plane
two years and now I want to upgrade my panel. The Lite is version G3 and the
Sport is G2, it is similar to what is currently being sold as the G4 Lite Plus.
Original price was $12750.00. Have it all for only $6200.00. I am willing
to sell the parts as follows AP $2500.00; Efis Sport $2500.00; Efis Lite $2000.00.
Contact Kent Byerley at Byerley@web-ster.com or Phone 503-627-4045 (work)
503-706-2618 (cell).
--------
Kent Byerley
RV9A - IO320 - CS - Tipup
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8052#208052
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 20 Amp Solid State Relay |
At 08:13 AM 10/9/2008 -0500, you wrote:
><bsallas@comcast.net>
>
>I was planning on using them for Master Battery Contactor, Starter
>Contactor, Ground Power Relay, and Avionics Master Relay.
Hmmmm . . . I'm aware of no solid state contactor suited
for use as a battery master (high-current, bi-directional
capability). There are devices that could serve in the rest
of the applications you mentioned . . . but I'll suggest
your return on investment would be poor. All except the
Starter and Ground Power contactors good for hundreds
of amps are hefty devices with a commensurate price tag.
Our solid state relay will be a 20A rated device and could
be used for an AV Master relay but it's better suited to
pitot heater, landing lights, and perhaps a robust e-bus
alternate feed path.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Dimmer Control Units |
Phil:
I curious, where on ebay are you selling them?
Henry
You can find the MaxDim product on ebay by doing an ebay search.
Phil
RV7 empannage/wing ... Cessna 177
Message 8
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| Subject: | BatteryMinder and "boil-over" |
At 06:36 AM 10/9/2008 -0600, you wrote:
>
>And the Schumacher mentioned maintainer has gone for $17+ to 20+ yesterday
>at Walmart since I bought the last one. Still a good buy for what it does
>for batteries in storage.
>Part number changed and they have a different box and the instructions &
>how it works on a label on the top of the unit. New number is SEM-1562A
>old # was WM-1562A.
Yeah, I saw those a couple of days ago at WallyWorld.
I've got one of the older versions and did extensive
testing that showed this little guy was about 2x
faster than the Battery-Minder/Battery-Tender wall-wart
crowd (0.8A versus 1.5A recharge) and equally as
"smart" with at less than 2/3 the price.
My favorite of the small guys.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Dimmer Control Units |
Just do a search for Maxdim.
Bruce
<http://www.glasair.org/> www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil
Samuelian
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dimmer Control Units
Phil:
I curious, where on ebay are you selling them?
Henry
You can find the MaxDim product on ebay by doing an ebay search.
Phil
RV7 empannage/wing ... Cessna 177
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
Bob I was able to test with a handheld not connected to anything.
Test one: Original Raw Driver, led array and about 3 ft of power wires. Handheld
gets trashed at over 20ft. Lots of audible noise and the squelch is opened
even at max.
Test two: Bob's Modified Driver, same everything else. Handheld can be as close
as 1 ft before picking up noise and it gets stronger the closer the antenna
is to the setup.
Test three: Bob's driver, same everything else with the power wires to the driver
passed twice thru a ferrite core. Handheld can be as close as the antenna
touching the power wires with no noise.
Seems we are very much on the right track. With the ferrite core, it seems the
problems are almost fully eliminated.
Bob, how can I get another one of these for the other side of my nav lights?
I do not have a panel mount to test. This would be the ultimate test as the driver
and the radio would be sharing a common power supply.
Bob, your thoughts????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8102#208102
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: panel dimmers? |
Skip:
LEDs certainly reduce the amount of current necessary compared to
incandescent, and a rheostat would perform better in that situation.
However, the rheostat is still changing aircraft power into heat. If
you're OK with that, then a rheostat is still the least expensive
solution.
There will still be a few calculations that will be necessary so you
obtain the correct rheostat and fixed resistance for your particular
installation.
What we are aiming for is continuous useful lumen output throughout
the entire rotational range of the rheostat without blowing out all
the LEDs.
You will have to know in advance how many LEDs you will be lighting
and the total current draw.
You can calculate the minimum resistance (highest brightness) from
those figures. (Resistance = Aircraft Voltage / Total LED Current).
Call this value "Rfixed."
Then you need to find out the maximum resistance that gives the
lowest useful lumen output from the LEDs (not off). Call this value
"Rmax."
Rheostat resistance = Rmax - Rfixed.
Now we figure wattage:
Rheostat wattage = (Total Current squared x Rheostat resistance) x 2
Rfixed wattage = (Total Current squared x Rfixed resistance) x 2
The "...x 2" is a fudge factor so the resistor is not running at its
maximum power capacity.
Place the fixed resistor in series with the rheostat.
Note that this solution does not allow for a bunch more (or less)
LEDs as the calculations and resistance would then change
substantially. This can happen if you decide to add or delete
lighting for some future modification.
Solid state dimmers all use voltage regulation to control lumen
output. They regulate the voltage in different ways, but all we're
concerned with is if the dimmer/regulator can control the amount of
current we need at our design voltage and if its operation is not
going to emit RF that will interfere with other equipment. Of course,
it would also be nice if it were easy to install, like 1 mounting
bushing and 3 wires.
Phil
Why not go with all LED technology and control the lights with
a simple
reostat?
What am I missing? Skip
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