---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/14/08: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:39 AM - SD-8 Failure in Z-13 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 07:31 AM - Z diagram notations (James Baldwin) 3. 08:08 AM - Re: Z diagram notations (Jay Hyde) 4. 08:11 AM - Re: Z diagram notations (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 5. 08:14 AM - Re: Z diagram notations (Dale Rogers) 6. 08:36 AM - Contactors (Jay Hyde) 7. 09:03 AM - Re: Contactors (jaybannist@cs.com) 8. 10:07 AM - Re: Contactors (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 9. 10:22 AM - Re: GARMIN GPS 296 panel installation (Carlos Trigo) 10. 10:32 AM - Re: Contactors (mikef) 11. 10:54 AM - Re: Contactors (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 12. 01:05 PM - Re: GARMIN GPS 296 panel installation (Greg Young) 13. 01:46 PM - Re: Contactors (Jay Hyde) 14. 02:07 PM - Re: Z diagram notations (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 08:04 PM - jab 3300 ground straps (bob noffs) 16. 08:32 PM - Re: jab 3300 ground straps (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:39 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Failure in Z-13 Bob. I have used your Z-13 "All Electric Airplane on a Budget" schematic as the basis of the electrical system on my Long-Ez. I recently returned from a flight to find the Aux Alt Off/On switch to be ON, whilst the DC Power switch was on, the battery contactor closed and the main alternator supplying the power. On checking the Aux Alt system subsequently I have that it does not work. To help me with the fault finding, are there any parts that could have shorted out/been fried? Is there a procedure for checking out the 'dynamo' and its circuit? Any help would be great. Many thanks Bob. First, it's not an automatic no-no to have the small alternator turned on at the same time the main alternator is on . . . When two alternators run in parallel, the alternator with the LOWER regulator voltage set-point will relax and the one with the HIGHER set-point will attempt to pick up all system loads. If the 8A machine had the higher set-point, then it would have been running all-out for the duration of your flight. The main alternator would have picked up the difference between the SD-8 output and system loads as the bus voltage sagged. This is not an automatic recipe for alternator failure but if the rectifier/regulator were inadequately heat-sinked, it could have caused internal damage at some point in the flight. That's about the only part of the SD-8 system that's vulnerable. Check with a voltmeter that you have AC voltage coming in while the engine is running and that the disconnect relay is closing. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:54 AM PST US From: "James Baldwin" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z diagram notations I was looking at the old Z-1 Aeroelectric drawing and saw the notation "MOV" inside an oval box. Anybody know what that means and where the "notes" are for these drawings? Thank you. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:23 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z diagram notations A MOV is a Metal Oxide Varistor and is used to protect against overvoltages; I don't have the Z1 diagram so I cannot tell what its doing in the circuit- if you want to send the diagram to me (email add below) I can have a look at it. Jay ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact details for Jay Hyde Mobile: +27 (0) 83 300 8675 Email: jay@horriblehyde.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Baldwin Sent: 14 October 2008 04:30 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z diagram notations I was looking at the old Z-1 Aeroelectric drawing and saw the notation "MOV" inside an oval box. Anybody know what that means and where the "notes" are for these drawings? Thank you. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Pinpoint, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:45 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z diagram notations James, This is a metal oxide varistor, used as a transient suppressor across an inductor. It has been determined that a diode works better for this task, so you will see diodes across the contactor coils in the later "Z" drawings. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Baldwin Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z diagram notations I was looking at the old Z-1 Aeroelectric drawing and saw the notation "MOV" inside an oval box. Anybody know what that means and where the "notes" are for these drawings? Thank you. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:14 AM PST US From: Dale Rogers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z diagram notations James Baldwin wrote: > > I was looking at the old Z-1 Aeroelectric drawing and saw the notation > MOV inside an oval box. Anybody know what that means and where the > notes are for these drawings? Thank you. > Metal Oxide Varistor? Generally used for surge protection. Dale R. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:28 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Contactors Hey there, new to the list.. Where do you source power contactors for 12V applications? Thanks Jay ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact details for Jay Hyde Mobile: +27 (0) 83 300 8675 Email: jay@horriblehyde.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Pinpoint, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:34 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactors From: jaybannist@cs.com I'm afraid I don't know how to source a contactor. I don't even know what that means.? However, you can buy them at bandcspecialties.com. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Jay Hyde Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:39 am Subject: AeroElectric-List: Contactors Hey there, new to the list.. ? Where do you source power contactors for 12V applications? ? Thanks ? Jay ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact details for Jay Hyde Mobile: +27 (0) 83 300 8675 Email: jay@horriblehyde.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ? ? -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Pinpoint Securemail, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:07:57 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Contactors Dale, For the continuous duty Main power and intermittent duty Starter contactors, I purchased mine from Aircraft Spruce. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Hyde Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:39 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Contactors Hey there, new to the list.. Where do you source power contactors for 12V applications? Thanks Jay ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact details for Jay Hyde Mobile: +27 (0) 83 300 8675 Email: jay@horriblehyde.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Pinpoint Securemail, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:10 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GARMIN GPS 296 panel installation Thanks to everybody who answered. Stein or anyone else Do you know if the "Alarm" white wire is designed to be connected to an annunciator panel light? If yes, does it carry power or ground to the light? Carlos _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteinAir, Inc. Sent: domingo, 12 de Outubro de 2008 21:37 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GARMIN GPS 296 panel instalation Hi Carlos, Typically everyone ignores those wires, except for the data in - which is used for traffic input on the 396/496 GPSes. Cheers, Stein -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:03 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: GARMIN GPS 296 panel instalation For those of you who have ever installed a portable GARMIN GPS296 in your panel, using the optional Power/Data Cable, will you please enlighten me about: - White wire, labelled as "Alarm", what is it for? - Brown wire (labelled as "Voice(+) ) and Orange (labelled as Voice(-) ), are these to be connected to the aircraft Audio system? - have you used any of the "Data In" wires (Yellow or Green)? Carlos href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:35 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Contactors From: "mikef" http://www.gigavac.com/search/index.htm type in: GX-11 and review the specs. Gigavac contactors - a bit more expensive but high quality. They take phone orders, call them and tell them you want the GX-11 model for a 12 volt system. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8750#208750 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:30 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Contactors Jay! Don't know why I called you Dale. My apologies! Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ROGER & JEAN CURTIS Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:06 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Contactors Dale, For the continuous duty Main power and intermittent duty Starter contactors, I purchased mine from Aircraft Spruce. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Hyde Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:39 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Contactors Hey there, new to the list.. Where do you source power contactors for 12V applications? Thanks Jay ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact details for Jay Hyde Mobile: +27 (0) 83 300 8675 Email: jay@horriblehyde.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Pinpoint Securemail, and is believed to be clean. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:16 PM PST US From: "Greg Young" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GARMIN GPS 296 panel installation If memory serves, the Alarm wire is the audible alarms - not a light. I think that's the one I wired from my 396 into an unswitched Aux on my audio panel. The voice wires (for the 396 at least) carry the XM radio and turn direction voice - but in mono. I used the stereo output jack and wired into the entertainment input on the audio panel. Regards, Greg Young _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 12:21 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GARMIN GPS 296 panel installation Thanks to everybody who answered. Stein or anyone else Do you know if the "Alarm" white wire is designed to be connected to an annunciator panel light? If yes, does it carry power or ground to the light? Carlos _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteinAir, Inc. Sent: domingo, 12 de Outubro de 2008 21:37 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GARMIN GPS 296 panel instalation Hi Carlos, Typically everyone ignores those wires, except for the data in - which is used for traffic input on the 396/496 GPSes. Cheers, Stein -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:03 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: GARMIN GPS 296 panel instalation For those of you who have ever installed a portable GARMIN GPS296 in your panel, using the optional Power/Data Cable, will you please enlighten me about: - White wire, labelled as "Alarm", what is it for? - Brown wire (labelled as "Voice(+) ) and Orange (labelled as Voice(-) ), are these to be connected to the aircraft Audio system? - have you used any of the "Data In" wires (Yellow or Green)? Carlos href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:33 PM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Contactors No problem! Thanks for all the answers everyone. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact details for Jay Hyde Mobile: +27 (0) 83 300 8675 Email: jay@horriblehyde.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ROGER & JEAN CURTIS Sent: 14 October 2008 07:53 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Contactors Jay! Don't know why I called you Dale. My apologies! Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ROGER & JEAN CURTIS Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:06 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Contactors Dale, For the continuous duty Main power and intermittent duty Starter contactors, I purchased mine from Aircraft Spruce. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Hyde Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:39 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Contactors Hey there, new to the list.. Where do you source power contactors for 12V applications? Thanks Jay ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact details for Jay Hyde Mobile: +27 (0) 83 300 8675 Email: jay@horriblehyde.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Pinpoint Securemail, and is believed to be clean. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Pinpoint, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:30 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z diagram notations At 07:30 AM 10/14/2008 -0700, you wrote: >I was looking at the old Z-1 Aeroelectric drawing and saw the notation MOV >inside an oval box. Anybody know what that means and where the notes are >for these drawings? Thank you. Your book is waaaayyyy out of date. Suggest you download the latest Z-figures at: http://aeroelectric.com/whatsnew.html The MOV's were an early experiment that was supposed to effectively tame the magnetic field collapse transient in relay and contactor coils. It proved not be as efficient and cost effective as the ordinary diode which you will find featured in later drawings. In the current drawing set, Z-1 is replaced by Z-11. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:07 PM PST US From: "bob noffs" Subject: AeroElectric-List: jab 3300 ground straps hi all, i apologize for the garbled mess i sent yesterday and promise never to mess with copy and paste again! bob, let me ask the question again.................. my jab 3300 is grounded with 4ga cable from the battrey to the 1/2'' thick aluminum plate which attraches the engine to the engine mount. this is a common method of grounding. a recent service bulletin recommends grounding at a 3/16'' bolt which attaches the starter to this plate. supposed to increase the voltage to the starter by .4 volts. i want to run my ground cable to the starter bolt AND with a ground strap also ground from the starter bolt to the aluminum plate. i would solder the strap to the cable in the connector that attaches the cable to the starter bolt. my question is this...should i use 4 ga strap[ from napa and big as a house] or will 10 ga strap be sufficient considering that i am grounding in 2 locations, 8'' from each other? thanks for your time, bob noffs ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:55 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: jab 3300 ground straps At 09:13 PM 10/13/2008 +0000, you wrote: > > >bob, >my jab is grounded with 4ga from the battery to the 1/2'' thick >aluminum plate which attaches the engine to the engine mount. a common >place i understand. a recent service bulletin recommends grounding at >a 3/16''bolt which attaches the starter to the plate. supposed to >increase the voltage by .4 to the starter. i wat to run my groung >cable to the starter and with a ''groung strap'' also ground from the >starter bolt to the alum. plate. i would solder the strap to the cable >in the connector that attaches the cable to the starter bolt. my >question is this....should i use ''4ga'' strap [from napa and as big >as a house] or will 10 ga strap be sufficient considering that i am >grounding in the 2 locations, 8'' from each other? > >thanks for an answer to a wordy question, I'm not real sure I have a clear image of your proposed architecture but let me offer this. I'm skeptical of a 0.4 volt difference across engine structure at starter currents but let's assume there is value in getting the battery(-) very close to the starter mounting bolts . . . so fine, run battery(-) to the suggested location. All other currents that run through "ground" connections are small by comparison. They're the loads supported by your alternator which if I recall correctly is good for about 20 Amps. So a single, super-flex wire from your engine crankcase to a single point ground on the firewall would be sufficient. Suggest a piece of the smallest welding cable you can get which I think is 6AWG. You don't need the copper but the flexibility and robustness is good. Use 4AWG welding cable for the other "fat" wires in the starter circuit. Ground everything else to the single point ground on the firewall. 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