---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/21/08: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:14 AM - Re: Grounding (Dave Leikam) 2. 09:54 AM - Re: Grounding (John Cox) 3. 11:04 AM - Re: Routing wires point-to-point () 4. 11:09 AM - Re: Grounding () 5. 11:54 AM - Re: Wing-to-Fuselage electrical connections () 6. 12:34 PM - Wing-to-Fuselage electrical connections (James H Nelson) 7. 02:57 PM - [Fw: Frank Feldman] (RScott) 8. 03:02 PM - Re: Wing-to-Fuselage electrical connections (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 03:04 PM - Re: Grounding (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 03:54 PM - Re: Routing wires point-to-point (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 05:17 PM - Alternator questions (Neil Clayton) 12. 05:56 PM - Re: Alternator questions (Matt Prather) 13. 06:56 PM - Re: Alternator questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 06:57 PM - Filtered BuckPuck LED Drivers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 07:13 PM - Re: Alternator questions (Jim) 16. 07:23 PM - Re: [Fw: Frank Feldman] (Walter Fellows) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:46 AM PST US From: "Dave Leikam" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Thanks, I should have rephrased battery to mean single point ground. Dave do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 10:13 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding > > > At 08:57 AM 10/20/2008 -0500, you wrote: >>When should you ground components locally and when should you ground to >>the battery directly? >>Flap motor? Lights? Pitot heat? Defrost fans, and the like? > > Nothing grounds directly to the battery. The battery > and all things local to the panel and engine should > go to a single point ground on the firewall. See View -A- > of figure 15 of: > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11M.pdf > > Stuff away from the panel like landing lights, strobe > supplies, position lights and pitot heat can ground > locally to structure. > > Also see photos of grounding accessories at: > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/ > > > Bob . . . > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:00 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Grounding From: "John Cox" The subject of single point ground is an interesting one. I think the world of Bob's contribution to aircraft electrical wiring yet, the SFAR88 issue (for the airlines) is an attempt by the FAA to quash those of us that believe the US Navy actually brought down TWA 800 not a bad single point ground using WWII wiring schemes. There are many points covered in SFAR88 but one is a direct effort to avoid single point grounds for electrical devices in proximity to hydrocarbons. It makes for an interesting consideration. Till then, this is still the best place to gain knowledge on wiring kit built aircraft and enjoying their flight characteristics. Like Bob says, They are not equal, they are better than certificated production units. John Do not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 5:13 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Thanks, I should have rephrased battery to mean single point ground. Dave do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 10:13 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding > > > At 08:57 AM 10/20/2008 -0500, you wrote: >>When should you ground components locally and when should you ground to >>the battery directly? >>Flap motor? Lights? Pitot heat? Defrost fans, and the like? > > Nothing grounds directly to the battery. The battery > and all things local to the panel and engine should > go to a single point ground on the firewall. See View -A- > of figure 15 of: > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11M.pdf > > Stuff away from the panel like landing lights, strobe > supplies, position lights and pitot heat can ground > locally to structure. > > Also see photos of grounding accessories at: > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/ > > > Bob . . . > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:33 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Routing wires point-to-point From: Bob, Good point. Max is 2 amps for either trim or led strobe lights, so I should be ok? Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:20 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Routing wires point-to-point At 09:52 AM 10/20/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >I just passed through the same dilemma. What to do, what to do. On my >bird the wings may be detached for fuel line maintenance or perhaps >transport at some point, so I decided to install one DB15 connector in >the fuselage to handle trim and wing lights which need to be loose to >detach the wings. Are you paralleling some of the pins per . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/D-Sub_Power_Dist_1.jpg Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:32 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Grounding From: Myself as well as many other builders in my area have simply used the B & C grounding block. It's a thing of beauty. 48 inside and 24 on the firewall. If that doesn't cut it, better to chat with Boeing on that SFAR88 thingy. Kudos to B & C for coming up with a simple but elegant solution to grounding. Yes, unless it's a 59' Plymouth with one of those Morse code looking regulators, don't run grounds to the battery. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:13 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding At 08:57 AM 10/20/2008 -0500, you wrote: >When should you ground components locally and when should you ground to >the battery directly? >Flap motor? Lights? Pitot heat? Defrost fans, and the like? Nothing grounds directly to the battery. The battery and all things local to the panel and engine should go to a single point ground on the firewall. See View -A- of figure 15 of: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11M.pdf Stuff away from the panel like landing lights, strobe supplies, position lights and pitot heat can ground locally to structure. Also see photos of grounding accessories at: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/ Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:54:48 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wing-to-Fuselage electrical connections What are the thoughts on using MOLEX connectors? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 6:03 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wing-to-Fuselage electrical connections > > > At 01:19 PM 10/19/2008 -0700, you wrote: >> >> >>Gentlemen, >> >>I'm at a point where I need to decide how to connect wires in the wing, to >>the corresponding wires in the fuselage. For DC stuff, I had planned to >>use the wiring connectors one often sees connecting a trailer to a truck >>(and as seen on aeroelectric.com). I'm now thinking that since I will >>need to splice these connectors into the wiring anyway (2 splices for each >>wire), I might as well just splice the WIRES together and eliminate the >>connector (1 splice per wire). But I'm using wingtip nav antennas, and >>I'm wondering whether to use BNC connectors or splice the coax. I don't >>know which will create more of an impedance mismatch or RF loss, but I'm >>thinking for a receiver, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. What >>do you think? > > The airplanes I fly are on average, 15+ years old. > I'll bet not a one of them has ever had the wings off. > If I were building an airplane, wings would be wired as > they are built and 10' or so pigtails left at the fuselage > end coiled up for later routing into the fuselage and > attachment to their respective destinations . . .but > with a "service loop" about 4-6" in diameter (12-18" > of slack wire) under the wing root fairing. > > Should it become necessary to EVER remove the wings, > then cut wires and/or coaxes in the middle of their > service loops. When replacing the wings, permanent > splices (and mated coax cable connectors) > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Coax/BNC_Cable_Female_1.jpg > > or > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Coax/BNC_Bulkhead_Female.jpg > > and > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Coax/BNC_Cable_Male.jpg > > > are in order for re-attaching the wings and associated > wiring. > > For permanent splices, these critters are certainly > an option . . . > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Terminals/PIDG-Splices.jpg > > these are also favored by the grey beards for > closing cut lines but leaving a service connection > behind . . . > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Terminals/ksplc2.jpg > > If you wanted to use one one of these style > connectors > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/wingwire/wingwire.html > > you could also consider this technique for making > high-quality, permanent splices of ship's wiring > to the connector's pigtails . . . > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Solder_Lap_Splicing/Solder_Lap_Splices.html > > Inclusion of a "service loop" of excess wire at > time of original fabrication allows for a dozen or > more cut-out-and-replace operations on individual > wires over the lifetime of the airplane. > > Finally, I had a chance to fiddle with these > connectors while wiring Ol' Blue (My hand-me-down > '87 Jimmy) to tow a trailer. This was the first > time I'd put my hands on this combination of > connectors: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Power/Trailer_Lights_Plug.jpg > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Power/Trailer_Lights_Jack.jpg > > This mated pair of connectors offers some interesting > design features. The male pins in the jack are solid > bifurcated brass that plug into seamless tube sockets > in the plug housing. The spring loaded lid has a retaining > dog that holds the plug engaged the jack. These are only > slightly heavier than their mil-spec counterparts and > they're a whole lot cheaper. The only disappointment was > the wire attach methodology that runs a screw thread down > against the wire strands. > > I installed wires by cutting 2x long, folding the strands > back and soldering them such that they became a solid, solder > encased "plug". run the screw down against the plug nice and > tight and follow up with an encapsulation of E6000 not unlike > what we did here > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html > > to deal with those pesky little 26AWG wires on a RayAllen > actuator. > > The wiring jack can probably be mounted to fuselage skin > under the wing root fairing. > > Bob . . . > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:37 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wing-to-Fuselage electrical connections From: James H Nelson Good devices and easy to use. I used them on both of my builds. Jim ____________________________________________________________ Click to become a master chef, own a restaurant and make millions. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m4pC6XacHZcPyTSRB9VrOczUjVt1LyhVGNOIafLQmBfRlfb/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:57:24 PM PST US From: RScott Subject: AeroElectric-List: [Fwd: Frank Feldman] A man walks into the street and manages to get a taxi just going by. He gets into the taxi, and the cabbie says, "Perfect timing. You're just like Frank" Passenger: "Who?" Cabbie: "Frank Feldman. He's a guy who did everything right all the time. Like my coming along when you needed a cab, things happened like that to Frank Feldman every single time." Passenger: "There are always a few clouds over everybody." Cabbie: "Not Frank Feldman. He was a terrific athlete. He could have won the Grand-Slam at tennis. He could golf with the pros. He sang like an opera baritone and danced like a Broadway star and you should have heard him play the piano. He was an amazing guy." Passenger: Sounds like he was something really special. Cabbie: "There's more... He had a memory like a computer. Could remember everybody's birthday. He knew all about wine, which foods to order and which fork to eat them with. He could fix anything. Not like me. I change a fuse, and the whole street blacks out. But Frank Feldman, he could do everything right." Passenger. "Wow, some guy then." Cabbie: "He always knew the quickest way to go in traffic and avoid traffic jams. Not like me, I always seem to get stuck in them. But Frank, he never made a mistake, and he really knew how to treat a woman and make her feel good. He would never answer her back even if she was in the wrong; and his clothing was always immaculate, shoes highly polished too -- he was the perfect man! He never made a mistake. No one could ever measure up to Frank Feldman." Passenger: "An amazing fellow. How did you meet him?" Cabbie: "Well, I never actually met Frank. I just married his f*cking widow." ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:02 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wing-to-Fuselage electrical connections At 11:52 AM 10/21/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >What are the thoughts on using MOLEX connectors? Molex makes a raft of different connectors but I presume your talking about white nylon critters that look like these: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/matenlok/matenlok.html Waldom/Molex and Tyco/AMP both have variations on this theme of power connectors. The Mate-n-Locks were incorporated into the single-engine airplanes at Cessna while I was still in their employ . . . about 1968. As far as I know, there were no big service issues that popped up resulting from utilization of these connectors. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:04:25 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Grounding At 02:05 PM 10/21/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >Myself as well as many other builders in my area have simply used the B >& C grounding block. It's a thing of beauty. 48 inside and 24 on the >firewall. If that doesn't cut it, better to chat with Boeing on that >SFAR88 thingy. > >Kudos to B & C for coming up with a simple but elegant solution to >grounding. That's a product we developed here and sold for a time before turning it over to B&C. We're going to be offering a panel-ground concentrator block in the near future. It will look like this: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/AVG_RA.jpg We're looking at a more compact version of the forest- of-ground-tabs too, but that one is not a done deal yet. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:23 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Routing wires point-to-point At 02:00 PM 10/21/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >Bob, >Good point. Max is 2 amps for either trim or led strobe lights, so I >should be ok? Yup. Landing lights get bigger tho . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:59 PM PST US From: Neil Clayton Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator questions When I bought a Honda auto alternator for my Cozy many moons ago, it's spec said it puts out 70 amps at 10,000 revs. I don't need anything like 70 amps (nor the associated heat) and I didn't like the idea of anything turning at 10,000 revs under my cowling, so I turned up a larger pulley to step down the alternator speed and it's output. I think I went too far. The original pulley was about 2" diameter and used a flat belt. My new pulley is about 5 1/2" diameter with a machined "V" belt groove to match the Lycoming flywheel. My voltmeter barely indicates 12v at 2000 engine revs (and nothing like the 13.6 volts I think it should be) and my ammeter is showing a slight discharge when the engine is running, suggesting the ammeter isn't charging the battery. Up till now, I put the readings down to poor gauge quality. So my questions are; 1) Would I see a "low" voltage reading if the alternator wasn't turning fast enough? 2) Is there a low-end threshold rpm at which the alternator must run to sustain battery charge? What happens on a car at idle RPM? 3) Was my logic flawed about stepping down the alternator RPM? Thanks for comments. Neil ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator questions From: "Matt Prather" It sounds like your alternator or wiring is kaput. The bare battery should have about 12.5V by itself. If the alternator is turning at all, and the bus loads are low, the bus should at least maintain 12.5V. Even with the larger pulley, the alternator is going to turn several times the engine RPM. I'd guess that the flywheel is probably at least 18 inches in diameter which would be between three and four times the diameter of the alternator pulley. That means that at 2000 engine RPM, the alternator is turning between 6000 and 8000 RPM. Plenty for normal output. I'd say check the wiring, and if all that looks good, pull the alternator and take it to Autozone or someplace with an alternator test stand have it checked out. Matt- > > > When I bought a Honda auto alternator for my Cozy many moons ago, > it's spec said it puts out 70 amps at 10,000 revs. > I don't need anything like 70 amps (nor the associated heat) and I > didn't like the idea of anything turning at 10,000 revs under my > cowling, so I turned up a larger pulley to step down the alternator > speed and it's output. > > I think I went too far. The original pulley was about 2" diameter and > used a flat belt. My new pulley is about 5 1/2" diameter with a > machined "V" belt groove to match the Lycoming flywheel. My voltmeter > barely indicates 12v at 2000 engine revs (and nothing like the 13.6 > volts I think it should be) and my ammeter is showing a slight > discharge when the engine is running, suggesting the ammeter isn't > charging the battery. Up till now, I put the readings down to poor > gauge quality. > > So my questions are; > 1) Would I see a "low" voltage reading if the alternator wasn't > turning fast enough? > 2) Is there a low-end threshold rpm at which the alternator must run > to sustain battery charge? What happens on a car at idle RPM? > 3) Was my logic flawed about stepping down the alternator RPM? > > Thanks for comments. > Neil > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:47 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator questions At 06:55 PM 10/21/2008 -0600, you wrote: > >It sounds like your alternator or wiring is kaput. The bare battery >should have about 12.5V by itself. If the alternator is turning at all, >and the bus loads are low, the bus should at least maintain 12.5V. Even >with the larger pulley, the alternator is going to turn several times the >engine RPM. I'd guess that the flywheel is probably at least 18 inches in >diameter which would be between three and four times the diameter of the >alternator pulley. That means that at 2000 engine RPM, the alternator is >turning between 6000 and 8000 RPM. Plenty for normal output. > >I'd say check the wiring, and if all that looks good, pull the alternator >and take it to Autozone or someplace with an alternator test stand have it >checked out. That's a good first start. Automotive alternators tend to develop full output in the 4000 to 5000 RPM range. A typical plot looks like this: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/80A_OutCurve.gif If your alternator pulley is smaller than engine pulley, then at 2,000 rpm your alternator should be capable of full or nearly full output. I agree with Matt that your particular specimen is either not hooked up right or kaput. On Lycoming installations, it's not uncommon to leave the stock small pulleys on modern alternators. 10K+ RPM is not especially hard on them. Field current is lower, fans run more air, and you get full output at taxi rpms to recharge the battery after start-up. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/60A_Nipon_Denso.jpg This particular item has been installed on thousands of Lycomings as has it's smaller stable mate, both of which run the small pulley. Service record has been excellent. Check your wiring . . . then have the alternator checked. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:40 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Filtered BuckPuck LED Drivers Zach and Juanita just left for the evening. We stuffed, tested and conformal coated the first batch of filtered BuckPuck supplies. They went into the mail this evening. We're short some parts so Zach will assemble another batch tomorrow after we get a care package from Digikey. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:58 PM PST US From: "Jim" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator questions Hi Neil, Assuming the alternator and it's support system (wiring) are in good form, a pulley something close to three inch DIA. should offer good idle output without over revving the unit at 2700 RPM. Modern alternators can comfortably handle revs in excess of 12000 RPM. Conservatively speaking the Honda that your unit was designed for ran a pulley to pulley ratio of something like three to four to one with 5000 + engine RPM survival expected by the designer. A five inch + pulley seems to me to be well into overkill as far as rev limiting is concerned. I would not be surprised to see low power output at idle. An awful lot of racers run these units at much higher RPM. than you will ever reach with your engine RPM limited at something under 3000 RPM. Happy building, Jim in Kelowna - RV6-A for sale {[:-( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Clayton" Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 5:16 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator questions > > > > When I bought a Honda auto alternator for my Cozy many moons ago, it's > spec said it puts out 70 amps at 10,000 revs. > I don't need anything like 70 amps (nor the associated heat) and I didn't > like the idea of anything turning at 10,000 revs under my cowling, so I > turned up a larger pulley to step down the alternator speed and it's > output. > > I think I went too far. The original pulley was about 2" diameter and used > a flat belt. My new pulley is about 5 1/2" diameter with a machined "V" > belt groove to match the Lycoming flywheel. My voltmeter barely indicates > 12v at 2000 engine revs (and nothing like the 13.6 volts I think it should > be) and my ammeter is showing a slight discharge when the engine is > running, suggesting the ammeter isn't charging the battery. Up till now, I > put the readings down to poor gauge quality. > > So my questions are; > 1) Would I see a "low" voltage reading if the alternator wasn't turning > fast enough? > 2) Is there a low-end threshold rpm at which the alternator must run to > sustain battery charge? What happens on a car at idle RPM? > 3) Was my logic flawed about stepping down the alternator RPM? > > Thanks for comments. > Neil > > > Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (4.0.0.26 - 10.100.044). > http://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/ Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (4.0.0.26 - 10.100.044). http://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:01 PM PST US From: "Walter Fellows" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: [Fwd: Frank Feldman] Can we keep this on topic? On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 2:46 PM, RScott wrote: > > A man walks into the street and manages to get a taxi just going by. > He gets into the taxi, and the cabbie says, > "Perfect timing. You're just like Frank" > > Passenger: "Who?" > Cabbie: "Frank Feldman. He's a guy who did everything right all the time. > > Like my coming along when you needed a cab, things happened like that > to Frank Feldman every single time." > Passenger: "There are always a few clouds over everybody." > Cabbie: "Not Frank Feldman. He was a terrific athlete. He could have > won the Grand-Slam at tennis. He could golf with the pros. He sang like > an opera baritone and danced like a Broadway star and you should have heard > > him play the piano. He was an amazing guy." > > Passenger: Sounds like he was something really special. > Cabbie: "There's more... He had a memory like a computer. > Could remember everybody's birthday. > He knew all about wine, which foods to order and which > > fork to eat them with. He could fix anything. Not like me. > I change a fuse, and the whole street blacks out. > But Frank Feldman, he could do everything right." > > Passenger. "Wow, some guy then." > Cabbie: "He always knew the quickest way to go in traffic and avoid > traffic jams. Not like me, I always seem to get stuck in them. > But Frank, he never made a mistake, > and he really knew how to treat a woman and make her feel good. > > He would never answer her back even if she was in the wrong; > and his clothing was always immaculate, shoes highly polished too -- > he was the perfect man! > He never made a mistake. > No one could ever measure up to Frank Feldman." > > Passenger: "An amazing fellow. How did you meet him?" > Cabbie: "Well, I never actually met Frank. > I just married his f*cking widow." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.