AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sat 10/25/08


Total Messages Posted: 7



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:34 AM - Re: Continuous Lacing (bcrnfnp@sbcglobal.net)
     2. 06:23 AM - Re: Continuous Lacing (BobsV35B@aol.com)
     3. 06:53 AM - Facts and Fables about the modern automotive alternator . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 07:33 AM - Re: Continuous Lacing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 08:45 AM - Power consumption (Sam Hoskins)
     6. 10:49 AM - Re: Continuous Lacing (Joemotis@aol.com)
     7. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: Dry Cell Batteries? (Sam Hoskins)
 
 
 


Message 1


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 05:34:48 AM PST US
    From: bcrnfnp@sbcglobal.net
    Subject: Re: Continuous Lacing
    Dave,=0A=0ACan't clarify, but I have some experience ripping out old wires in a C-172. DON"T LACE IT. If you ever (or someone after you) has to trac e wires or try to remove an old system, it is pure hockey poo getting aroun d that lacing. Very time consuming also. Just a thought. I plan on using tie wraps in the 172 and also my RV-9A when I get there.=0A=0ABarry Chapma n RV-9A Wings=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Dave V anLanen <davevanlanen@sbcglobal.net>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, October 24, 2008 6:33:19 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Continuous Lacing=0A=0AContinuous Lacing =0AIwasplanning to use the continu ous lacing technique suggested inThe AeroElectric Connection, rather than t ie wraps, to bundle wires between support points,(for example the wiresI am routing through my wings for lighting), for the beneficial reasons that Bo b provided. However, I just came acrossaparagraphin AC 43.13-1B, Section 8 'Wiring Installation Inspection Requirements'paragraphi., which states =93Continuous lacing(spaced 6 inchesapart) is not used, except in panels an d junctionboxes where this practice is optional=94. This seems to conflict with the continuous lacing suggestion. Can anyone clarify for me? =0AThan -======================== ==================


    Message 2


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 06:23:58 AM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Continuous Lacing
    Good Morning Barry, Just to prove there are always differences of opinion, may I say that I prefer proper lacing to Tywraps? What I do is use Tywraps during the layout and build up process, then replace them with flat waxed lacing cord after the build up is complete. I do NOT use a continuous string as was taught fifty to sixty years ago and as is sh own in Manual 18, but use individual ties where needed. I think such ties are a t least as easy to remove as are Tywraps, and they do not have the large protrusions such as cutoff Tywraps have. I think they are even just a tiny bit lighter!<G> Back when I attended Aviation Electrician Mate training, we were told to us e continuous lacing cord because it supplied some support for the wire run. I think that thought is no longer in vogue. It probably went away with Manual 18! Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 10/25/2008 7:36:45 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bcrnfnp@sbcglobal.net writes: Dave, Can't clarify, but I have some experience ripping out old wires in a C-172. DON"T LACE IT. If you ever (or someone after you) has to trace wires or tr y to remove an old system, it is pure hockey poo getting around that lacing. Very time consuming also. Just a thought. I plan on using tie wraps in th e 172 and also my RV-9A when I get there. Barry Chapman RV-9A Wings **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites , no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)


    Message 3


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 06:53:55 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Facts and Fables about the modern automotive alternator
    . . . I just got home from a trip to Tijuana, Mexico and Torrance, California where I was the guess of Motorcar Parts of America and in the company of 9 other individuals who make their living distributing and selling car parts. The purpose of the trip was to get a first hand look at what's possible when your fliver's alternator or starter departs for the happy hunting ground. We've all been an observer if not the beneficiary of the work product of Smilely Jack's Pretty Good Autoparts and Repair Shop. Over most of our lives, we've acquired some notions what it means to have an alternator or starter "repaired, refurbished, or remanufactured". We've also been blessed with ol' mechanics tales and the sermons of the devoutly faithful when it comes to the physics and simple ideas that support the functionality and endurance of starters and alternators. Finally, the largest (and most loosely controlled) variable in selecting an off-the-shelf product is driven by perceptions of quality . . . with each of us having a different mental image or faith with respect to the meaning of quality. I can tell you that what I witnessed and learned over the past three days was astounding. The facilities I was privileged to visit were benchmark examples of what it means to effectively implement all those buzz words and phrases that our bosses and employers have been tossing around for the past 20 years like TQM, ISO9000, quality circles, etc, etc. The folks at MPA didn't just go take the courses we've all attended and then go home expecting some miracle of transition to Nirvana to take place. MPA (and their most capable competitors) have hired the best chefs, given them the necessary authority and resources to craft an end-to-end process that starts with a lump of grease and dirt covered salvage and convert it to a product that you can buy over the counter with an expectation of equal to or better performance than the part you took off the car. I'll be working on a white paper that details what I've learned. It's my hope that what I have to share of this experience will be useful to the readers of this List and my website. As a little teaser for things to come, know that a great deal of what's been handed down or even preached with great enthusiasm does not track with reality. In the final analysis, simple ideas of physics and the benefits of an honorable exchange of value in a free-market will prevail. I am pleased to have witnessed a finely tuned example of what is possible when ignorant if not dishonorable folks are prevented from spoiling a recipe for success. Watch this space. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 4


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 07:33:18 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Continuous Lacing
    At 05:30 AM 10/25/2008 -0700, you wrote: >Dave, > >Can't clarify, but I have some experience ripping out old wires in a >C-172. DON"T LACE IT. If you ever (or someone after you) has to trace >wires or try to remove an old system, it is pure hockey poo getting around >that lacing. Very time consuming also. Just a thought. I plan on using >tie wraps in the 172 and also my RV-9A when I get there. > >Barry Chapman RV-9A Wings > > >From: Dave VanLanen <davevanlanen@sbcglobal.net> >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 6:33:19 PM >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Continuous Lacing > >I was planning to use the continuous lacing technique suggested in The >AeroElectric Connection, rather than tie wraps, to bundle wires between >support points, (for example the wires I am routing through my wings for >lighting), for the beneficial reasons that Bob provided. However, I just >came across a paragraph in AC 43.13-1B, Section 8 Wiring Installation >Inspection Requirements paragraph i., which states Continuous lacing >(spaced 6 inches apart) is not used, except in panels and junction boxes >where this practice is optional. This seems to conflict with the >continuous lacing suggestion. Can anyone clarify for me? Every methodology for the formation and support of wire bundles is optional. There are lots of ingredients that go into recipes for success. The end goal is to keep bundles organized, supported so that they don't chafe and/or flop around so severely that joints in wiring are stressed. Finally, there's simply the sense of craftsmanship. Continuous lacing has but one advantage over all other techniques. It probably goes on faster and uses less string. It is also process-sensitive . . . it takes perhaps more skill to make it look good. The process was included in the 'Connection as one of several options, not a recommendation. Bob . . .


    Message 5


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 08:45:34 AM PST US
    From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins@gmail.com>
    Subject: Power consumption
    Is there a comprehensive list, maintained on the Connection, of the power consumption of various devices? Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL


    Message 6


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 10:49:09 AM PST US
    From: Joemotis@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Continuous Lacing
    Hi Bob, They were still teaching lacing when I went through Aircraft Electrician school at Fort Eustis VA. in 1971. Joe Motis Do not archive or lace or ty wrap In a message dated 10/25/2008 6:26:02 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes: Good Morning Barry, Just to prove there are always differences of opinion, may I say that I prefer proper lacing to Tywraps? What I do is use Tywraps during the layout and build up process, then replace them with flat waxed lacing cord after the build up is complete. I do NOT use a continuous string as was taught fifty to sixty years ago and as is sh own in Manual 18, but use individual ties where needed. I think such ties are a t least as easy to remove as are Tywraps, and they do not have the large protrusions such as cutoff Tywraps have. I think they are even just a tiny bit lighter!<G> Back when I attended Aviation Electrician Mate training, we were told to us e continuous lacing cord because it supplied some support for the wire run. I think that thought is no longer in vogue. It probably went away with Manual 18! Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 10/25/2008 7:36:45 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bcrnfnp@sbcglobal.net writes: Dave, Can't clarify, but I have some experience ripping out old wires in a C-172. DON"T LACE IT. If you ever (or someone after you) has to trace wires or tr y to remove an old system, it is pure hockey poo getting around that lacing. Very time consuming also. Just a thought. I plan on using tie wraps in th e 172 and also my RV-9A when I get there. Barry Chapman RV-9A Wings ____________________________________ Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics =93 _check it out!_ ttp://www.games.com?ncid=emlcnt usgame00000001) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites , no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)


    Message 7


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 06:21:29 PM PST US
    From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Dry Cell Batteries?
    Bob, What would be the proper way to parallel two batteries? I am using Z19/RB Sam On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:39 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@cox.net> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@cox.net> > > > > >> > What are your requirements for capacity? Have you >> > done an energy study for battery-only endurance? >> > The 310 is not cheap and it's fragile compared to it's >> > larger siblings. >> > >> > Bob . . . >> > >> > After much discussion, we think this is how my electrically-dependent >> engine breaks out... >> >> > Current draw on 4 cylinder EFI engines: >> > >> > Pump at 40 psi- 5-8 amps >> > Injectors at 5000 rpm- 3-4 amps >> > Ignition at 5000 rpm- 2.5-4 amps (depends on coil charge time) >> > ECU- .15- .6 amps depending on ECU >> > >> > My total current draw in flight at 4500 rpm with 2 pumps on (one LP >> > Facet, one HP Bosch 048), transponder, comm, gps, injectors, coils, >> > ECU and scavenge pump is 18 amps. >> >> >> We seem to think that the 17ah PC680 clone would give just about 15 >> minutes of realistic run time, given some age on the battery. I guess I >> might have to carry the weight of another battery around to be safe. >> > > According to the performance curves at: > > http://tinyurl.com/5p6d4w > > a 17A load on a 100% battery will give you just > under 30 minutes of run time down to about 10V. So > a battery due for replacement would be suited > for about 20 minutes of operation. > > Consider running both batteries of a 2-battery > architecture in parallel. Losses in any given battery is an > I(squared)*R function. By cutting the current per > battery by about 1/2, the energy lost in each battery > drops to 1/4th the original amount. Doing 1/4 > per battery in two batteries gets you 1/2 the > lost watts. Two 17 a.h. batteries gives you > 34 a.h. of total capacity. An 18A load on this > combo goes to a 60+ minutes of duration. > > A savings of 5 or so pounds can be realized by > going to a single 28 a.h. battery. > > http://tinyurl.com/6eu2p8 > > The internal impedance of this battery seems > better than two 17 a.h. in parallel. It gives > you the same 60+ minutes at less weight > and total capacity. > > Of course, with a single battery or treating > two batteries as one battery dictates an > aggressive capacity tracking protocol. If > ever there was an power plant begging for > a second, small alternator, it's this one. > > Bob . . . > >




    Other Matronics Email List Services

  • Post A New Message
  •   aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
  • UN/SUBSCRIBE
  •   http://www.matronics.com/subscription
  • List FAQ
  •   http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
  • Web Forum Interface To Lists
  •   http://forums.matronics.com
  • Matronics List Wiki
  •   http://wiki.matronics.com
  • 7-Day List Browse
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list
  • Browse AeroElectric-List Digests
  •   http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list
  • Browse Other Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse
  • Live Online Chat!
  •   http://www.matronics.com/chat
  • Archive Downloading
  •   http://www.matronics.com/archives
  • Photo Share
  •   http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
  • Other Email Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
  • Contributions
  •   http://www.matronics.com/contribution

    These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.

    -- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --