---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/27/08: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:14 AM - Re: Durocell Leaking Batteries (Richard Girard) 2. 06:35 AM - Off topic - 737 runs out of battery power (Sam Hoskins) 3. 06:56 AM - Re: Installing Audio Jacks (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:45 AM - Vision Microsystems IO Board () 5. 09:07 AM - Re: Durocell Leaking Batteries (John Cox) 6. 09:35 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 10/26/08 (John Markey) 7. 09:45 AM - Dynon EFIS & EMS power on the main bus (Jeff Davidson) 8. 09:54 AM - Re: Re: Dry Cell Batteries? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 10:07 AM - Re: Off topic - 737 runs out of battery power (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 11:21 AM - Re: Off topic - 737 runs out of battery power (MauleDriver) 11. 03:42 PM - Re: Installing Audio Jacks (Carlos Trigo) 12. 05:20 PM - Re: Installing Audio Jacks (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 08:38 PM - Re: AUX BATTERY MANAGEMENT MODULE (Mike Pienaar) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:05 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Durocell Leaking Batteries Following Bob's report on the quality of alkaline batteries from Dollar General several years ago, I've been using them exclusively. Never had the problem you're experiencing with a single one and they're half the price of the major brands, typically 20 for $5. Rick On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:18 PM, jerb wrote: > > Hi, > Has anyone else experienced an increase of Durocell batteries leaking in > devices in the last couple years. I've used them for years in test > equipment, cameras, and high dollar radios because they didn't leak. Can't > say that no more. So far I had them leak in a couple small Mag flashlights, > my PDA device, and my GPS. A little further back they done in my red/white > lens aviation flash light also. I never used to have a problem with them. > They cost more than ever today and appear to leak more, is there a > relationship here. I never recharge them. > > Darn, I just looked behind me at a package to see if I had spelled the name > right, and found another one of a few I had sitting their has leaked. > Crap.... Might they relabeling Rayovac's. What is different with these > batteries selling now? > jerb > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:11 AM PST US From: "Sam Hoskins" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off topic - 737 runs out of battery power Speaking of standby power, here is an interesting preliminary NTSB report: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 081007X03940&key=1 I wonder why they didn't land when they first switched to battery power, since "The QRH procedure also referenced that, "The battery will provide bus power for approximately 30 minutes." ". ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Installing Audio Jacks At 08:53 PM 10/26/2008 +0000, you wrote: >Bob > > >I really didn t find anything about my question in the link you provided, >although it is your book s chapter about Audio Systems. My apologies, I thought I'd touched on signal grounds in that chapter . . . In complex machines where there is a mix of power (100 ma and up) and signal systems (milliamperes and down) it is useful to make some effort to isolate these systems from each other as much as practical. This starts with single point grounding so that no potential victim (in this case headphones) has it's desired signal (ATC talking to you) polluted with undesired signals (alternator whine) because the power and signal ground paths are shared along some portion of the airframe. The underlying thought here is that "ground is not ground" for all systems when you simply tie the ground wires to the vehicle structure. At Cessna way back when, we simply tied mic and headset jacks to airframe ground at the lower edge of the panel. As loads in the airplane went up and generators were replaced with alternators, there was the occasional situation where alternator noise was heard by folks at the other end of your transmission . . . or you could hear alternator whine in your headsets. NONE of the noise mitigating techniques (isolation washers, single point grounds, shielded wires, etc) are absolute guarantees against having to wrestle with a noise issue. These are easy to accomplish, prophylactic measures that have been shown to be useful in the past and when implemented in total one can expect eliminating 99.9% of all potential noise propagation paths . . . therefore we recommend that they be implemented as standard practice. Bob . . . > > >Can you please be more specific about what you think about not insulating >the Headphone jack? > >And if I isolate it, to where exactly should I connect the ground lug of >the Headphone jack? > > >Carlos > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > > > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > > > Sent: domingo, 26 de Outubro de 2008 20:23 > > > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > > > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Installing Audio Jacks > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 07:25 PM 10/26/2008 +0000, you wrote: > > > > > > >I am installing the Intercom in my RV and I remember reading in this forum > > > >that, when installing the audio jacks on the panel or any other aluminium > > > >surface of the cockpit, one shall isolate the jacks from the metal surface > > > >with plastic or rubber insulating washers. > > > > > > > >However, in the Flightcom instructions they only recommend (and include > > > >washers to) isolation of the Microphone jack and not in the Headphone > jack. > > > > > > > >They even show in the schematic drawing the Headphone jack locally > grounded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Is this correct? If yes, why? > > > > > > It's a good idea if not a necessary thing to isolate > > > small signal systems from airframe ground . . . > > > > > > See > > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/18Audio_R11.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob . . . > > > > > > ----------------------------------------) > > > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > > > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > > > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > > > ( ) > > > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > > AeroElectric-List Email Forum - > > > browse > > > Un/Subscription, > > > FAQ, > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > > ========== > > > bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > > Forums! > > > > > > ========== > > > bsp; - List Contribution Web Site - > > > > > > bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========== > > > > > > > > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >2:52 PM Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:42 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Vision Microsystems IO Board Does anyone have any information of the Vision Micros systems IO Board? I'd like to add one to my existing EPI800 system but JPI/VMS no longer stock the item. They're not particularly helpful in locating one or providing information so I can build one (I have the technology). Any information would be helpful. A manual, wiring diagram, schematic, hi-res picture, anything. Thanks Neil ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:00 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Durocell Leaking Batteries From: "John Cox" Confirming an increased rate in the Duracell batteries, AA and AAA purchased at Costco in large quantity packs in the last 36 months. John Cox -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jerb Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Durocell Leaking Batteries Hi, Has anyone else experienced an increase of Durocell batteries leaking in devices in the last couple years. I've used them for years in test equipment, cameras, and high dollar radios because they didn't leak. Can't say that no more. So far I had them leak in a couple small Mag flashlights, my PDA device, and my GPS. A little further back they done in my red/white lens aviation flash light also. I never used to have a problem with them. They cost more than ever today and appear to leak more, is there a relationship here. I never recharge them. Darn, I just looked behind me at a package to see if I had spelled the name right, and found another one of a few I had sitting their has leaked. Crap.... Might they relabeling Rayovac's. What is different with these batteries selling now? jerb ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:20 AM PST US From: John Markey Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 10/26/08 Jerb, - YES !!! - I have seen them fail most recently in my 121.5Mhz ELT - ruined it, they le aked so bad. Also, I pitched out a new LED flashlight that used 1 AA battery. The batter y was so swelled and caused so much corrosion in the casing that I couldn't extract it. - Not sure what's up with DURACELL, but this is killin' me. I need a new ELT and don't want to buy an old 121.5 unit, and my cheap slef isn't willing to buy an overpriced 405 unit. - John Glasair 2FT Hi, Has anyone else experienced an increase of Durocell batteries leaking in devices in the last couple years.- I've used them for years in test equipment, cameras,- and high dollar radios because they didn't leak.- Can't say that no more.- So far I had them leak in a couple small Mag flashlights, my PDA device, and my GPS.- A little further back they done in my red/white lens aviation flash light also.- I never used to have a problem with them.- They cost more than ever today and appear to leak more, is there a relationship here.- I never recharge them. Darn, I just looked behind me at a package to see if I had spelled the name right, and found another one of a few I had sitting their has leaked.- Crap....- Might they relabeling Rayovac's.---What is different with these batteries selling now? jerb =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:51 AM PST US From: Jeff Davidson Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dynon EFIS & EMS power on the main bus Background: I tried to start my Jabiru 3300A yesterday. It didn't start because of a lack of fuel. I can address that. At the same time, an electrical system question has come up. The battery is a 2-3 year old 17 Amp Hour motorcycle battery. It was charged up and eventually spun the engine fast enough to start under normal circumstances in my opinion. I intend to replace it soon. The ship's wiring diagram is a combination of Jabiru's design from their installation manual augmented with Aeroconnection techniques like the forest of ground tabs. As such, with the Permanent Magnet alternator, I followed Jabiru's advice that Over Voltage protection is not needed. Question: My question here is about the wiring of the Dynon EMS and EFIS to the main bus. They are powered up when the Master Switch grounds the Battery Contactor. The starter contactor is downstream of the battery contactor. When the starter is engaged by grounding the starter contactor with the ignition switch, both Dynons lost ship's power and came up on the backup battery. When we had tried this several times, the Dynon backup battery was exhausted and the Dynons simply went off. Again, the engine never started so all this was happening while the starter was engaged. My question is whether or not the Dynons should be moved to the Avionics bus. Yes, I have an Avionics Master and understand the concern about it. The functional problem is that the tachometer and oil pressure are displayed on the EMS and nowhere else. In the certified planes with glass panels that I'm familiar with, the glass panels are similarly connected to the Master Switch and stay on when the engine is started. I need to be able to check oil pressure as soon as the engine starts. Thanks for any light you can shed on this. Next time, I'll move the fuel selector from the Off position! Jeff Davidson (still an electrical newbie) CH601-HD w/Jabiru3300A ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:28 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dry Cell Batteries? At 02:59 PM 10/26/2008 -0700, you wrote: >The "AUX BATTERY MANAGEMENT MODULE" illustrated on page 2 in the article >mentioned, can I buy that or do I have to make it. > That version of the device is no longer in production. For a time I was offering bare boards . . . so you could do your own. There's a DIY article on the website at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/DIY/LV_Warn_Fab_and_Install.pdf. However, depending on how soon you need it, there's a new product under development (we started the software last week) intended to replace the LV_Warn/ABMM with a LV_Warn/On_Board_Battery_Capacity Meter. Since Z-19 cannot readily make good use of a battery capacity meter (two batteries that need to be tracked) then perhaps we should consider a version of the new product that drops in to replace the LV_Warn/ABMM . . . I'll consider that as an option. I just checked an we're out of the bare boards and don't plan to restock those. If you'd like to go the DIY route, there's artwork for the boards posted at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/DIY/9005-301-1C_Fab.pcb You need to download free ECB crafting and ordering software from: http://expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Free_cad_software.htm The minimum order for the boards is 3 coupons that make 2 boards each for total of 6. This will cost you about $61 total but perhaps you can find some other DIY enthusiasts to share the board costs with. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:07:28 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Off topic - 737 runs out of battery power At 08:29 AM 10/27/2008 -0500, you wrote: >Speaking of standby power, here is an interesting preliminary NTSB report: >http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 081007X03940&key=1 > >I wonder why they didn't land when they first switched to battery power, >since "The QRH procedure also referenced that, "The battery will provide >bus power for approximately 30 minutes." ". I'm presently involved in a task to upgrade and airframe with new engines and associated accessories along with a total overhaul of the cockpit to glass screens. The customer is adamant that systems functionality and operations in the upgraded electrical system be identical to the older versions. The rationale is that flight crews need to transition across the fleet of aircraft with minimal risk of doing the wrong thing in a new airplane based on their experience with the old airplane. This is a subtle if not overt admission that in spite of specific perfectly accurate written instructions, folks in command are vulnerable to episodes of logic-lock . . . Having a carefully crafted plan-B to back up plan-A is one of those seemingly innocuous ideas that can be exceedingly useful during situations that are rare by design goal. Here our design goal is to mini Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:03 AM PST US From: MauleDriver Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Off topic - 737 runs out of battery power Very interesting. I'm not sure there is enough information here for an untrained person (me) to actually see what was done correctly or incorrectly. But I'm thinking that the procedure that called for the standby system to be switched to BATT killed the charging of the main battery. Conversely, it it had been left OFF, some subsystems would have been offline but the critical systems would have continued to run on battery power and the battery would have been charged.... ...and while none of that quite makes sense to me, the write-up seems like a lot of bureacratic-speak that is impossible to understand outside of the 757/pro community. Good off-topic. Thanks do not archive Sam Hoskins wrote: > Speaking of standby power, here is an interesting preliminary NTSB report: > http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 081007X03940&key=1 > > > I wonder why they didn't land when they first switched to battery > power, since "The QRH procedure also referenced that, "The battery > will provide bus power for approximately 30 minutes." ". > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:02 PM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Installing Audio Jacks Many thanks Bob Now I got the whole picture!! Obviously I will isolate the headphone jacks as well. Now, isolating the headphone jacks from the airframe, where should I connect its ground lugs to? Shall I run a dedicated wire from each jack ground lug? Shall this wire go to the firewall single point ground, or to pin 13 (mic return) or pin 1 (ground) of the Intercom? By the way (and forgive me for asking so many questions), since I am using shielded wire to connect Mic and Headphone jacks to the Intercom, on which side should I connect the shield mesh to ground, the jack or the Intercom? Carlos > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: segunda-feira, 27 de Outubro de 2008 13:54 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Installing Audio Jacks > > > > At 08:53 PM 10/26/2008 +0000, you wrote: > > >Bob > > > > > > > >I really didn t find anything about my question in the link you provided, > >although it is your book s chapter about Audio Systems. > > My apologies, I thought I'd touched on signal grounds > in that chapter . . . > > In complex machines where there is a mix of power (100 ma and > up) and signal systems (milliamperes and down) it is useful to > make some effort to isolate these systems from each other as > much as practical. > > This starts with single point grounding so that no potential > victim (in this case headphones) has it's desired signal (ATC > talking to you) polluted with undesired signals (alternator > whine) because the power and signal ground paths are shared > along some portion of the airframe. > > The underlying thought here is that "ground is not ground" > for all systems when you simply tie the ground wires to the > vehicle structure. At Cessna way back when, we simply tied > mic and headset jacks to airframe ground at the lower edge > of the panel. As loads in the airplane went up and generators > were replaced with alternators, there was the occasional situation > where alternator noise was heard by folks at the other end of > your transmission . . . or you could hear alternator whine > in your headsets. > > NONE of the noise mitigating techniques (isolation washers, > single point grounds, shielded wires, etc) are absolute > guarantees against having to wrestle with a noise issue. These > are easy to accomplish, prophylactic measures that have been > shown to be useful in the past and when implemented in total > one can expect eliminating 99.9% of all potential noise > propagation paths . . . therefore we recommend that they be > implemented as standard practice. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:23 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Installing Audio Jacks At 10:38 PM 10/27/2008 +0000, you wrote: >Many thanks Bob > >Now I got the whole picture!! Obviously I will isolate the headphone jacks >as well& > > >Now, isolating the headphone jacks from the airframe, where should I >connect its ground lugs to? back to ground at the same device that drives the headphones (iso amp, intercom?). See . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/DIY/Audio_Isolation_Amplifier.pdf . . . in every schematic, I show the signal ground for EACH headset and EACH microphone jack returned to ground on the device that gets the signal wires. >Shall I run a dedicated wire from each jack ground lug? For headsets, I use single shielded (shielded pair for stereo) and often use the shield itself as the ground return. This way all the conductors stay together. Mic jacks can be a shielded trio (or shielded pair with ground being the signal ground for the mic jack. Either way works fine. >Shall this wire go to the firewall single point ground, or to pin 13 (mic >return) or pin 1 (ground) of the Intercom? To the device that needs or delivers signals to the other end. The next audio isolation amp under design will have LOTS of extra ground pins to accommodate minimum-risk wiring techniques without having to splice a half dozen grounds before dropping them into a single pin. These grounds never go to an airframe ground like g1 thru g5 unless specifically called out on the diagram. Bob . . . > > >By the way (and forgive me for asking so many questions), since I am using >shielded wire to connect Mic and Headphone jacks to the Intercom, on which >side should I connect the shield mesh to ground, the jack or the Intercom? At the intercom end only unless you're using that ground as part of the signal path. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:22 PM PST US From: "Mike Pienaar" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AUX BATTERY MANAGEMENT MODULE Thanks, No rush, I'll wait for your module Cheers Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 9:51 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dry Cell Batteries? > > > At 02:59 PM 10/26/2008 -0700, you wrote: >>The "AUX BATTERY MANAGEMENT MODULE" illustrated on page 2 in the article >>mentioned, can I buy that or do I have to make it. >> > > That version of the device is no longer in production. For a time > I was offering bare boards . . . so you could do your own. There's > a DIY article on the website at: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/DIY/LV_Warn_Fab_and_Install.pdf. > > However, depending on how soon you need it, there's > a new product under development (we started the software > last week) intended to replace the LV_Warn/ABMM with > a LV_Warn/On_Board_Battery_Capacity Meter. > > Since Z-19 cannot readily make good use of a battery > capacity meter (two batteries that need to be tracked) > then perhaps we should consider a version of the new > product that drops in to replace the LV_Warn/ABMM . . . > I'll consider that as an option. > > I just checked an we're out of the bare boards and > don't plan to restock those. If you'd like to go the > DIY route, there's artwork for the boards posted > at: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/DIY/9005-301-1C_Fab.pcb > > You need to download free ECB crafting and ordering > software from: > > http://expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Free_cad_software.htm > > The minimum order for the boards is 3 coupons that > make 2 boards each for total of 6. This will cost > you about $61 total but perhaps you can find some > other DIY enthusiasts to share the board costs with. > > Bob . . . > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.