Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:23 AM - Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During November! (dralle@matronics.com)
2. 06:50 AM - Using relay for engine control . . . ()
3. 07:37 AM - Re: Using relay for engine control . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 11:34 AM - Filtered Buck-Puck LED Drivers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 11:34 AM - Refurbished wire strippers . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 01:55 PM - Re: Re: Sub Panel Labeling ()
Message 1
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| Subject: | Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During November! |
Dear Listers,
Each November I hold a PBS-like fund raiser to support the continued operation
and upgrade of the List services at Matronics. It's through soley through the
Contributions of List members that these Matronics Lists are possible.
You have probably noticed that there are no banner ads or pop-up windows on any of the Matronics Lists or related web sites such as the Forums site ( http://forums.matronics.com ), Wiki site ( http://wiki.matronics.com ), or other related pages such as the List Search Engine ( http://www.matronics.com/search ), List Browse ( http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse ), etc. This is because I believe in a List experience that is completely about the sport we all enjoy - namely Airplanes and not about annoying advertisments.
During the month of November I will be sending out List messages every few days
reminding everyone that the Fund Raiser is underway. I ask for your patience
and understanding during the Fund Raiser and throughout these regular messages.
The Fund Raiser is only financial support mechanism I have to pay all of the
bills associated with running these lists. Your personal Contribution counts.
Once again, this year I've got a terrific line up of free gifts to go along with
the various Contribution levels. Most all of these gifts have been provided
by some of the vary members and vendors that you'll find on Matronics Lists and
have been either donated or provided at substantially discounted rates.
This year, these generous people include Bob Nuckolls of the AeroElectric Connection (http://www.aeroelectric.com/), Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore (http://www.buildersbooks.com/), and Jon Croke of HomebuiltHELP (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/).
These are extremely generous guys and I encourage you to visit their respective
web sites. Each one offers a unique and very useful aviation-related product
line. I would like publicly to thank Bob, Andy, and Jon for their generous support
of the Lists again this year!!
You can make your List Contribution using any one of three secure methods this
year including using a credit card, PayPal, or by personal check. All three methods
afford you the opportunity to select one of this year's free gifts with
a qualifying Contribution amount!!
To make your Contribution, please visit the secure site below:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I would like to thank everyone in advance for their generous financial AND moral
support over the years. I know it sounds a little cliche, but you guys really
do feel like family.
Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 2
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| Subject: | Using relay for engine control . . . |
11/1/2008
Hello Layman, Bob Nuckolls wrote:
1) "It's been my recommendation for years that electrically dependent
engines run from the always-hot, battery-bus.This means that if you have
smoke in the cockpit, you can shut off the alternator-battery-master switch
and kill everything electrical without having the engine quit."
I'd like to add another reason to have the electrically dependent engine
(and its electrically dependent vital accessories) run from the always-hot,
battery-bus: I am personally aware of the failure of two different
manufacturer's master battery contactors that left the two different
aircraft without any electrical supply whatever downstream of the contactor.
2) "Modern relays are pretty robust and have excellent service lives under
the hood of
an automobile."
Neither of the master battery contactors mentioned in 1 above were "modern",
but both (one in a type certificated airplane and one in an amateur built
airplane) are in very common use.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
PS: You wrote: "By the way, the engine can also be shut off by pulling
breakers and shutting off fuel if necessary."
Do the electrical circuit(s) running through these breaker(s) also represent
some single point(s)of unwanted engine shut down possibilities?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Time: 02:50:02 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Using relay for engine control . . .
>Comments/Questions: I have your book, and I read the section on relays,
>but I'm still not sure a decision I made long ago is the right one. I have
>an automotive engine in a pusher, and for whatever reason the engine must
>be shut off by removing power from the computer. Rather than depend upon a
>switch and a long run of wire, I connected the computer directly to the
>battery contactor, through the normally closed contacts of a relay. This
>way, the switch and wire are only used to activate the relay, which shuts
>down the engine. By the way, the engine can also be shut off by pulling
>breakers and shutting off fuel if necessary. Questions: What are the
>consequences of using the normally closed contacts for this purpose? I ask
>because they are rated lower and probably held closed with a spring. How
>about a latching relay instead? Or a more appropriate relay for the task
>that a layman such as myself might not know about? Thanks for the help.
Is the computer the only device that needs
power to keep the engine running? How about fuel
pump?
It's been my recommendation for years that electrically
dependent engines run from the always-hot, battery-bus.
This means that if you have smoke in the cockpit, you
can shut off the alternator-battery-master switch and
kill everything electrical without having the engine
quit.
Since you already have a switch and some length of
wire in place to control a relay, there is little value
in adding the relay unless the current needed to run
the computer is too large to consider running through
the switch and its associated wiring. There is a reliability
factor for the switch an associated wire . . . which can
only get worse by adding the relay. However, if there
is a performance driver for adding the relay (you don't
want to run 20A the length of the airplane twice and
a 20A rated switch is a real pig), then using a smaller
switch, wire and a relay to control that pathway is a
rational decision. This is what battery and starter
contactors are about also.
Why the n.c. contacts? Modern relays are pretty robust
and have excellent service lives under the hood of
an automobile. If this pathway and its controls have
to be 100% golden for the engine to run, then perhaps
a normally open solid state relay is called for. Eric
Jones has one, we'll have one too pretty soon. How
much current are you talking about?
What does this computer control? What other electro-
whizzies need to be powered up to keep the engine
runnnig?
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
I check the List several times a day and attempt to be as
responsive as time will allow. Further, there are 1800
or so subscribers that include many technically capable
teachers. This is the best venue for assisting you in
your studies.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Using relay for engine control . . . |
At 09:45 AM 11/1/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>
>11/1/2008
>
>Hello Layman, Bob Nuckolls wrote:
>
>1) "It's been my recommendation for years that electrically dependent
>engines run from the always-hot, battery-bus.This means that if you have
>smoke in the cockpit, you can shut off the alternator-battery-master
>switch and kill everything electrical without having the engine quit."
>
>I'd like to add another reason to have the electrically dependent engine
>(and its electrically dependent vital accessories) run from the
>always-hot, battery-bus: I am personally aware of the failure of two
>different manufacturer's master battery contactors that left the two
>different aircraft without any electrical supply whatever downstream of
>the contactor.
Bet they didn't have a dual feed e-bus either.
>2) "Modern relays are pretty robust and have excellent service lives under
>the hood of
> an automobile."
>
>Neither of the master battery contactors mentioned in 1 above were
>"modern", but both (one in a type certificated airplane and one in an
>amateur built airplane) are in very common use.
It matters not whether one paid $25 for a contactor . . . or $2500
there no guarantees that the contactor or combination of wires, terminals,
switches, etc that control them will not fail to perform as intended
at some point in time. Folks spend tens of $thousands$ on engines and
they run as advertised MOST of the time . . . but nothing is guaranteed
infallible.
This is why the prudent builder/owner/operator of any machine upon
which life and limb depend plans for and designs in support for the
most critical failures . . . or procures, designs, tests and maintains
what is believed to be a SYSTEM failure rate of less than one per
million flight hours.
The gentleman who started this thread appears to be planning
on an automotive conversion that like propellers and wing struts,
offers no options for graceful recovery from failure other than to
bail out . . . or perhaps fly day-vmc only over terrain likely
to offer high probability of survivable dead-stick arrivals.
The best he can do is minimize parts count and use parts
that are lightly stressed . . . and in this case, he might
want to consider a Honeywell/Microswitch toggle for computer
control . . . but there is still the terminal that's poorly
crimped, screw that is over or under torqued, etc. But when
all is said and done, his selection of hardware has increased
the numbers of single-failure items that will force an
uncomfortable if not dangerous termination of flight.
The ingredients that go into the final recipe for success
have to be gauged against his skills, operational plans for
the aircraft and amount of risk he's willing to accept. The
best we can do for him here is help drive the risk numbers
in the right direction.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Filtered Buck-Puck LED Drivers |
There has been sufficient demonstrated interest in the
AEC9051 series Buck-Puck LED drivers that we've turned
this into an "official" product of The 'Connection.
I've crafted on-purpose installation documentation and
expanded the offerings to cover lower current versions
of the LED driver in addition to the bare-bones Filter
Assembly to which users may add their own Buck-Puck
LED drivers. See:
https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
and
https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AEC/9051/9051-700A.pdf
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 5
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| Subject: | Refurbished wire strippers . . . |
For those who have wire strippers on order, know that
my supplier got me another dozen pair yesterday. His
barrel of serviceable parts is running low and he thinks
he may get another 5 pair before this offer runs out.
At the present rate of attrition, this opportunity will
run perhaps another 30 days.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Sub Panel Labeling |
Bill:
Would you mind posting details of how you made your labels.
Thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Gill" <wgill10@comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 6:59 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sub Panel Labeling
> Henry,
>
> Attached are a few examples from my project.
>
> Bill
> RV-7 N151WP
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Henry
> Trzeciakowski
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 8:42 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sub Panel Labeling
>
> Gentlemen:
>
> I've seen numerous e-mails, etc regarding panel labeling, but I really
> didn't see comments regarding the "COLOR" of the lettering. I've
> researched
> thru various FAA sites, etc., and I couldn't find articles as to what
> the
> "Legal" color for lettering should be (black, white).
>
> I have a meduim Gray Panel (see attachment) and I'm leaning towards
> BLACK
> Lettering...it stands out better.
>
> I woud appreciate any feedback or suggestions.
>
>
>
> Henry
> Pittsburgh, Pa.
> RV-9A - wiring started
>
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