---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 11/06/08: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 11:22 PM - Reminder (Matt Dralle) 1. 07:15 AM - Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 07:20 AM - Re: Alt to starter connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 07:33 AM - Re: FAQ question... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:33 AM - Re: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . (Dj Merrill) 5. 07:39 AM - Re: ANL current limiter location on rear battery installations (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 07:49 AM - Re: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . (Steve Thomas) 7. 07:49 AM - Re: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . (Carlos Trigo) 8. 07:50 AM - Re: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . (Richard Girard) 9. 08:03 AM - Re: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 10. 08:33 AM - Re: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . (Ernest Christley) 11. 09:24 AM - Terra Tri Nav C Wireing (Bill) 12. 10:15 AM - Re: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 13. 10:40 AM - Re: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 14. 10:40 AM - Re: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 15. 12:38 PM - [Fw: The best pilot ever?] (Harley) 16. 01:07 PM - Re: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . (Gilles Thesee) 17. 02:33 PM - Re: Electronic Ignition problem - any suggestions? (Peter Pengilly) 18. 02:33 PM - Re: Alt to starter connection (Bradley Webb) 19. 02:39 PM - Re: FAQ question... (Bradley Webb) 20. 02:46 PM - Re: ANL current limiter location on rear battery installations (Bradley Webb) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 11:22:18 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Reminder Dear Listers, Just a quick reminder that November is the annual List Fund Raiser. The Matronics Lists are 100% member supported and all of the operational costs are provided for my your Contributions during this time of the year. Your personal Contribution makes a difference and keeps all of the Matronics Email Lists and Forums completely ad-free. Please make your Contribution today to keep these services up and running! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you in advance! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . Something to be said for torque-tube aileron controls. If this airplane had been rigged with cables . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv_w3IrRYq0 Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:28 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alt to starter connection At 02:19 PM 11/4/2008 -0800, you wrote: > >Sorry if this has been covered, but I can't find it anywhere. > >First, I'm using a NipponDenso IR alternator of 55amps, and a Bosch >starter from the car the engine came from. I am not planning on using a >separate starter contactor. > >On my install, it would be very convenient to run the power lead from the >big starter post to the alternator B-lead post, then 4AWG back to the battery. That works. It's been done on lots of Lycoming installations where the alternator and starter are in close proximity. How long is the wire from your alternator b-terminal and the starter fat-wire terminal? >Is it harmful to run the starter voltage through the alternator this way >when cranking the engine? No, what you've proposed is electrically no different than other architectures published. In most installations the b-lead is generally connected to the bus all the time. You're only re-arranging the mechanics of the same connections. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:07 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FAQ question... At 02:26 PM 11/4/2008 -0800, you wrote: > > >From the list FAQ: > > > > > > >Hmmm. My understanding is different. As wired in my plane, the OV > module shorts the breaker > > as you say. However, when the circuit breaker pops it kills the voltage > to the field of the > > contactor which is connecting the alternator output (B lead) to the > battery, thus removing the > > offending voltage from the system whether or not the alternator field > is receiving power internally > > to the alternator itself. > > > > A Internally and externally regulated alternators ARE slightly > different in the way that the > > OVM tames a runaway alternator. For internally regulated machines, the > external B-lead > > contactor is not necessary. Bob . . . > > >Bob, >Is the above response a typo? Figure Z-24 was conceived FOR an IR >alternator, no? It basically adds an alt disconnect contactor and shows >how to wire it up. But the above comment suggests it is not necessary. Understand. Yes that is a typo. For externally regulated machines, it's easy to tame a runaway system by breaking the field power lead. To do the same thing on an internally regulated hardware, you have to modify it (like Plane-Power) to get access to the field power path . . . or do some form of external disconnect of the b-terminal as suggested in Z-24 and the document I published at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf I mentioned a trip to visit Motorcar Parts of America alternator and starter fabrication facilities last month. What I learned one that trip re-enforces my understanding for achieving design goals on an ON/OFF, any time, any conditions control of an internally regulated alternator. Z-24 is just fine for alternators designed and tested to survive their own load dumps . . . like the MPA products. Unfortunately, some alternators are not blessed with such diligence on the part of their designers. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . From: Dj Merrill Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Something to be said for torque-tube aileron controls. > If this airplane had been rigged with cables . . . > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv_w3IrRYq0 They got you Bob - it is an RC model in a "faked" video... :-) -Dj do not archive -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ KR-2 Builder N770DJ http://deej.net/sportsman/ http://deej.net/kr-2/ "Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ANL current limiter location on rear battery installations At 02:13 PM 11/4/2008 -0800, you wrote: > > > > > That interested me since in another context I had been wondering > about ANL location. I was > > puzzling why in Z-24 the ANL was shown downstream of the internally > regulated alternator > > isolation contactor. My thinking was that by having it close to the > alternator it would blow if > > anything (including the isolation contactor) ran amok downstream. What > is the advantage of > > having it at the main bus end ? > > A The ANL limiter (fat fuse) is there to protect the alternator b-lead > wire . . . the source of > > energy that places this wire at risk is NOT the alternator but the > battery. An alternator is > > incapable of putting out enough current to open its own b-lead > protection while the battery is > > capable of fat-wire faults approaching 1000 amps. So, while selecting > the SIZE of the protection > > device is driven by alternator output capability, selecting LOCATION is > associated with the risk > > source . . the BATTERY. > > On some occasions, we have fat wires that can source a fault from > either end . . . in > > which case, you might have a limiter at both ends of the same > conductor. However, I've never > > encountered a situation like this for small aircraft. Bob . . . > > >The above is in the FAQ's for the list. I would like to clarify a bit >further: If the battery is the current feeder in a frayed B-lead scenario, >and the battery is in the tail (with the master contactor and eng power >bus (FI auto)), then wouldn't the ANL current limiter be located back >there as well? If so, between the battery and contactor, or between the >contactor and main bus loads? Actually, a frayed b-lead is likely to arc a bit and "burn clear" like other battery connected fat wires in airplanes. The ANL is risk mitigation for shorted diodes . . . an exceedingly rare event in modern alternators . . . ESPECIALLY those supported by due diligence on the part of the designers/rebuilders. Small aircraft do not get circuit protection in the battery feeders to the starter and distribution busses. Only the alternator b-leads got the ANLs (or similar) to deal with the internally shorted alternator but that risk too has steadily diminished over the years. If you choose to include a limiter in the b-lead, then about any place in the b-lead wire is okay but best at the end away from the alternator. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:01 AM PST US From: Steve Thomas Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . Just so everyone knows, this video that is "flying" around the Internet like wildfire is a fake. It is a combination of a real airplane and an RC controlled model. Great video editing, but not what it appears to be. Steve On Nov 6, 2008, at 7:13 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Something to be said for torque-tube aileron controls. > If this airplane had been rigged with cables . . . > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv_w3IrRYq0 > > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:14 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . It's really a very good video editing illusion, and a very good model airplane builder and pilot ... I could feature the guy who opens the canopy on the last frames! Carlos > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: quinta-feira, 6 de Novembro de 2008 15:14 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . > > > > Something to be said for torque-tube aileron controls. > If this airplane had been rigged with cables . . . > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv_w3IrRYq0 > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:14 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . Amazing what they can do with giant scale RC these days but you'd think they could make them a bit stronger. There's another video on You tube that shows the exact same model of aircraft only it's the left wing that comes off that one and they don't try to fake that it's a real aircraft. Rick On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 9:13 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@cox.net> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@cox.net> > > Something to be said for torque-tube aileron controls. > If this airplane had been rigged with cables . . . > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv_w3IrRYq0 > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:14 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . ....it wouldn't have made a difference as it's a completely fake combination of an RC and CGI effects. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:14 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . Something to be said for torque-tube aileron controls. If this airplane had been rigged with cables . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv_w3IrRYq0 Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:50 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . Dj Merrill wrote: > > Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> Something to be said for torque-tube aileron controls. >> If this airplane had been rigged with cables . . . >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv_w3IrRYq0 > > They got you Bob - it is an RC model in a "faked" video... :-) > > -Dj > do not archive > > It looks like the switchover occurs at the 49th second, then they have an RV with one wing removed that taxis for just a short distance. There is some playing around with the focus just as the plane lands, and then a building in the background takes a pretty big jump. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:10 AM PST US From: "Bill" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Terra Tri Nav C Wireing ----- Have a question on the wiring of a tri nav c. I have the manual but one thing is not very clear. I am using a terra txn 920 nav/com and a Navaid ap 1 autopilot. I guess my question is, What is done with green wire from Tri Nav C Plug #1 pin # 7 ? The tri nav c manual states that it is grounded (Where?) The Txn 920 manual diagram shows it connected to Pin #9 on plug #1. Is Pin #9 a proper ground? When connected to a navaid ap 1 autopilot. Thanks Bill S. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 10/14/2008 2:02 AM ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:06 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . Bob, I have seen this around for a while. Do you think it is real or some good editing?? Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:14 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . Something to be said for torque-tube aileron controls. If this airplane had been rigged with cables . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv_w3IrRYq0 Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:21 AM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . It's a viral ad. A bit of both and them some other things too. -------------- Original message -------------- From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" > Bob, > > I have seen this around for a while. Do you think it is real or some good > editing?? > > Roger > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. > Nuckolls, III > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:14 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . > . . > > > > Something to be said for torque-tube aileron controls. > If this airplane had been rigged with cables . . . > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv_w3IrRYq0 > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > >
It's a viral ad.  A bit of both and them some other things too.
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany@verizon.net>

> Bob,
>
> I have seen this around for a while. Do you think it is real or some good
> editing??
>
> Roger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:14 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing .
> . .
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>
>
> Something to be said for torque-tube aileron controls.
> If this airplane ha d been rigged with cables . . .
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv_w3IrRYq0
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . 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It's a viral ad. A bit of both and them some other things too. -------------- Original message -------------- From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" > Bob, > > I have seen this around for a while. Do you think it is real or some good > editing?? > > Roger > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. > Nuckolls, III > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:14 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . > . . > > > > Something to be said for torque-tube aileron controls. > If this airplane had been rigged with cables . . . > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv_w3IrRYq0 > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > >
It's a viral ad.  A bit of both and them some other things too.
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany@verizon.net>

> Bob,
>
> I have seen this around for a while. Do you think it is real or some good
> editing??
>
> Roger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:14 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing .
> . .
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>
>
> Something to be said for torque-tube aileron controls.
> If this airplane ha d been rigged with cables . . .
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv_w3IrRYq0
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . 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Qk9CLElIQVZFU0VFTlRISVNBUk9VTkRGT1JBV0hJTEVET1lPVVRISU5LSVRJU1JFQUxPUlNPTUVH T09ERURJVElORz8/Uk9HRVItLS0tLU9SSUdJTkFMTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tRgAAAACVzg= --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_9858_1225996773_2-- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:16 PM PST US From: Harley Subject: AeroElectric-List: [Fwd: The best pilot ever?] Let's put an end to this thread quickly...by discussing it, we are doing EXACTLY what Killathrill Clothing wants...known as "viral advertising" Here's an email I sent to the Canard Aviator's group when this video was being discussed there. It should answer all your questions (even some you haven't asked yet). BTW...apparently, this is a standard stunt that advanced RC pilots attempt. Harley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>He could be the best pilot ever ............ or the luckiest.<< Being a great movie CGI and special effects fan, and with a friend of my son's in the business, (she's done the CGI work and lighting for a lot of them - Spiderman 2, for example), that video of the plane's wing coming off and the guy landing didn't quite look right to me. for example, the wheel pants on the roll out look like they were touched up (or not lighted as the plane is later), and the bounce on landing looked more like an RC plane. And there was plenty of focus adjustments and off screen shots to piece in a real aircraft. So this prompted me to start doing a little research online, and found that another person had beat me to it. From his findings and my suspicions, it looks like that was just a video that was CREATED (and the operative word is "created" by combining a real plane at the end, with an RC, and CGI work to seamlessly connect them) to spread the word about either Red Bull or, more likely, the KillaThrill clothing company. An RC model builder and flyer, with the online forum name of arithonkelis, did the research and reported as follows. Harley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "It's fake, and here's why. There's an "interview" with James Andersson, the pilot, here: http://www.jamesandersson.com/interview.html I watched the video a few more times after work and started getting a little suspicious. I've seen real stunt planes with enough thrust to 'helicopter' themselves, and I've seen planes knife edge. I think it's theoretically possible for a model plane to do this kind of landing if you've got a good model plane and an incredibly skilled person behind the remote...." "So, I did more poking around. The James Andersson website claims he is from Great Britain and Germany. However, if it's a real aircraft, where's the aircraft registration number? It could be that it's just too small to see, but watching carefully, I didn't see anything like that. Then I got suspicious. Whois.net shows that the jamesandersson.com domain is registered to "Sandra Thielecke" with a killathrill email address (ct@killathrill.com). Then, further through that J. A. website, it claims he has placed 24th, 14th and 15th in Red Bull Air Races. Yet according to the Red Bull Air Race website, there are only 12 racers, so 12th place is dead last - it's impossible to place 14th, 15th or 24th. Disqualification, the most common placement listed on the J. A. website, is also not shown as an option. Furthermore, a google search doesn't find him listed anywhere on the Red Bull Air Race site. I also tried this for the other races and several of the air shows listed on his site with no success. The J.A. website also uses country code "GRB" when showing his listings in Red Bull Air Races. However, on the Red Bull Air Race website, Great Britain is represented as GBR, and Germany is represented as GER. Another suspicious bit: Two copies of this video were posted on YouTube. Both were posted by users with no other postings (MrMarodeur and AirRacer89), 2 days apart. The users' favorite videos are almost identical. The nail in the coffin, for me, came from the Red Bull Air Race website's About The Race section: Currently there are three different types of aircraft used in the Red Bull Air Race World Championship: the Edge 540, the MXS and the Extra 300SR. James Andersson's website claims he flies a Giles G-300. The Giles G-300 is single-seat, single engine kit plane, but it was produced by AkroTech Aviation, Inc. They went out of business in August 2000. They also have an empty weight of 431kg - and the James Andersson website claims ... reduction in weight to a basic weight of 650kg. *sigh* So, in short, I think it's a complete fabrication, done with either a computer or an RC plane, either for KillaThrill or Red Bull. I was rather hoping it was real, 'cause that would have been one hell of a flight... ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:38 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Anything you walk away from is a GOOD landing . . . Carlos Trigo a crit : > > Its really a very good video editing illusion, and a very good model > airplane builder and pilot .. > Search the Web for Bill Hempel... Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:02 PM PST US From: "Peter Pengilly" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Electronic Ignition problem - any suggestions? As a follow up, my friend could not get any sense out of Electroair so replaced the EI with a mag. Same problem still evident! Probably why Electroair comments made no sense ... After further investigation it seems that one of the inlet valves is leaking at high BMEPs, such that small reductions in throttle reduce the cylinder pressure sufficiently to stop the leak. The blow back into the inlet system was enough to cause a serious miss fire. Switching off one mag was probably the equivalent of a "small reduction in throttle" so the implication that the EI was at fault was a complete red herring! This also explains why the miss fire was throttle setting dependent, rather than rpm dependent. Cylinder repairs now underway - I'll post again once this problem is finally licked. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: 07 October 2008 00:22 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electronic Ignition problem - any suggestions? I wouldn't waste any time thinking about this until first replacing the spark plugs (seriously) and then the wires but apparently that has been done. I've also seen failing ignition coils do what you describe. Electroair coils look like GM automotive coils which would mean they may be cheap to replace?? A multi tooth pickup wheel will have a repeating irregular pulse pattern AND the pulse voltage will vary accordingly. All teeth are not evenly spaced or there is at least one tooth missing to establish timing. I don't know how reliable the Electroair pickup has been but it would not be my first suspect. A scope will show an amazing amount of noise on both primary and secondary sides of these coils. As long as it is a regular repeating pattern, it is probably normal. Yes they are of similar voltage to what fires the plugs. I'd only be suspicious if they are non repeating spikes. Ken Peter Pengilly wrote: > > Hi All, I'm posting this for a friend who is not a member and is trying > to diagnose an electronic ignition problem. Any thoughts would be > gratefully received. > > I have an interesting problem with my electronic ignition that I'd > appreciate further opinion on. My RV6 has an O-320 with a Slick magneto > on the left drive and Electroair EIS on the right drive. The EIS is a > dual coil, lost spark system (each coil fires 2 opposing cylinders on > both compression and exhaust stroke), and has been successfully operated > for 480 hours. > > The problem is that each time I go to take off the engine misfires when > full power is applied. I am getting 2150 rpm static, and as the plane > accelerates at full power, after 10-15 seconds the engine starts to > misfire. The misfires occur at roughly 1-2 seconds frequency and last > for 200-700 milliseconds. There is never any backfiring. > > I've conducted one flight, and found that as soon as I eased the climb > and reduced power, the problem went away. I was able to fly at 2,600 rpm > with no problems, and could not re-create the misfire whilst airborne. > Because there is no backfiring, I initially assumed a problem with fuel > supply. This has been eliminated, and I have been testing the ignition > system whilst static on the ground. > > I connected an oscilloscope input to an ignition lead and the trace gave > large spikes at every 1/2 engine revolution as expected. However, > intermediate lower amplitude spikes were also observed at 2/3 to 3/4 of > the main spike period. This occurs throughout the full rev range, > including clean running. > > I also tested the signal output from the magneto timing housing. It was > found to have irregular modulation and an irregular gap. > > I don't know what signal the processor unit can tolerate, but I think > that the irregular signal from the timing sensor may be the issue. > However, the manufacturer still suggests that the charge is arcing out > through either the leads or plugs. > > Having replaced both the leads and plugs, and that there's no evidence > or arcing through either the power or earth connections, I think it's a > fault with the unit. > > One significant point is that when I turn off the EIS, the engine runs > perfectly on the single magneto. When the EIS is turned back on and the > misfire occurs, I would expect the magneto to continue firing as normal. > I think it probably is, but there's no fuel left to burn and the > misfiring is caused by wrongly timed sparks from the EIS igniting fuel > in the cylinders before the mixture is compressed and ignited by the > magneto. > > Am I missing something? Any thoughts would be much appreciated > > Regards, James > RV6 G-JSRV > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:02 PM PST US From: "Bradley Webb" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alt to starter connection Thank you. I suspected it to be as you said, but I wanted to make sure before I blow up an otherwise working alternator. The distance from the starter to alternator big leads is about 12 inches. It will only save a few ounces, but I need all I can from up there, plus it makes a slightly simpler installation. Simple is good. Bradley -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:20 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alt to starter connection At 02:19 PM 11/4/2008 -0800, you wrote: > >Sorry if this has been covered, but I can't find it anywhere. > >First, I'm using a NipponDenso IR alternator of 55amps, and a Bosch >starter from the car the engine came from. I am not planning on using a >separate starter contactor. > >On my install, it would be very convenient to run the power lead from the >big starter post to the alternator B-lead post, then 4AWG back to the battery. That works. It's been done on lots of Lycoming installations where the alternator and starter are in close proximity. How long is the wire from your alternator b-terminal and the starter fat-wire terminal? >Is it harmful to run the starter voltage through the alternator this way >when cranking the engine? No, what you've proposed is electrically no different than other architectures published. In most installations the b-lead is generally connected to the bus all the time. You're only re-arranging the mechanics of the same connections. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:19 PM PST US From: "Bradley Webb" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: FAQ question... I feel comfortable with the alternator disconnect solenoid in series with the "control" wire on my IR alternator. If I should feel the need to throw the Master DC switch to the BATT position, my alternator will simply become a spinning weight up front. I'm installing the OVM-14 on the 5 amp CB on the panel, so the only thing yet missing from my panel is the 2x4 coming at me during the over/under voltage event. I'm still considering options for which way I want to go, and the B&C BC207-1 is looking right for the job. Bradley Understand. Yes that is a typo. For externally regulated machines, it's easy to tame a runaway system by breaking the field power lead. To do the same thing on an internally regulated hardware, you have to modify it (like Plane-Power) to get access to the field power path . . . or do some form of external disconnect of the b-terminal as suggested in Z-24 and the document I published at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf I mentioned a trip to visit Motorcar Parts of America alternator and starter fabrication facilities last month. What I learned one that trip re-enforces my understanding for achieving design goals on an ON/OFF, any time, any conditions control of an internally regulated alternator. Z-24 is just fine for alternators designed and tested to survive their own load dumps . . . like the MPA products. Unfortunately, some alternators are not blessed with such diligence on the part of their designers. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:31 PM PST US From: "Bradley Webb" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ANL current limiter location on rear battery installations Ahhh, I see. I took your stance to be that the ANL fuse is a much required item in our OBAM systems. I now take you to mean them to be fine to add, but not wholly necessary to safety. Correct? So having no circuit protection in both/either the alternator and/or starter circuit in a competently-designed system is ok? Hard to swallow, but that's why I'm asking. I have an ANL fuse and holder, but in the interest of fewer connections (hence less to go wrong), I may forego it. Bradley -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:39 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ANL current limiter location on rear battery installations At 02:13 PM 11/4/2008 -0800, you wrote: > > > > > That interested me since in another context I had been wondering > about ANL location. I was > > puzzling why in Z-24 the ANL was shown downstream of the internally > regulated alternator > > isolation contactor. My thinking was that by having it close to the > alternator it would blow if > > anything (including the isolation contactor) ran amok downstream. What > is the advantage of > > having it at the main bus end ? > > A The ANL limiter (fat fuse) is there to protect the alternator b-lead > wire . . . the source of > > energy that places this wire at risk is NOT the alternator but the > battery. An alternator is > > incapable of putting out enough current to open its own b-lead > protection while the battery is > > capable of fat-wire faults approaching 1000 amps. So, while selecting > the SIZE of the protection > > device is driven by alternator output capability, selecting LOCATION is > associated with the risk > > source . . the BATTERY. > > On some occasions, we have fat wires that can source a fault from > either end . . . in > > which case, you might have a limiter at both ends of the same > conductor. However, I've never > > encountered a situation like this for small aircraft. Bob . . . > > >The above is in the FAQ's for the list. I would like to clarify a bit >further: If the battery is the current feeder in a frayed B-lead scenario, >and the battery is in the tail (with the master contactor and eng power >bus (FI auto)), then wouldn't the ANL current limiter be located back >there as well? If so, between the battery and contactor, or between the >contactor and main bus loads? Actually, a frayed b-lead is likely to arc a bit and "burn clear" like other battery connected fat wires in airplanes. The ANL is risk mitigation for shorted diodes . . . an exceedingly rare event in modern alternators . . . ESPECIALLY those supported by due diligence on the part of the designers/rebuilders. Small aircraft do not get circuit protection in the battery feeders to the starter and distribution busses. Only the alternator b-leads got the ANLs (or similar) to deal with the internally shorted alternator but that risk too has steadily diminished over the years. If you choose to include a limiter in the b-lead, then about any place in the b-lead wire is okay but best at the end away from the alternator. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.