---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/14/08: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:05 AM - Fund Raiser Lagging Last Year By Over 30%... (Matt Dralle) 1. 06:48 AM - Re: Fund Raiser Lagging Last Year By Over 30%... (JAMES SMITH) 2. 07:16 AM - Lessons Learned, Lessons Forgotten, Tools for Sharing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 07:21 AM - Re: Fund Raiser Lagging Last Year By Over 30%... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:25 AM - Re: Prestolite vs B&C (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 09:35 AM - Re: Prestolite vs B&C (Peter Pengilly) 6. 12:05 PM - Re: Prestolite vs B&C (Allan Aaron) 7. 12:28 PM - Re: Prestolite vs B&C (David M) 8. 06:17 PM - Re: Prestolite vs B&C (Charlie England) 9. 07:42 PM - Re: Prestolite vs B&C (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 10. 09:22 PM - Re: Prestolite vs B&C (David M) 11. 09:40 PM - Re: Lessons Learned, Lessons Forgotten, Tools for Sharing (Ed Holyoke) 12. 10:10 PM - test email (David M) 13. 11:33 PM - Re: Squeal PTT (Allan Aaron) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:31 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fund Raiser Lagging Last Year By Over 30%... As of the 13th, the Fund Raiser is currently about 30% behind last year in terms of the number of Contributions. Yet, oddly the number of messages posted per day is up by 10 to 20% on the average. It costs real money to run these Lists and they are supported 100% though your Contributions during the Fund Raiser. Won't you please take a minute right now to make your Contribution to keep these Lists up and running? Contribution Page: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Email List Admin. ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:05 AM PST US From: JAMES SMITH Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fund Raiser Lagging Last Year By Over 30%... Matt: I tried several times last year to donate=2C but could not make it work and gave up. I'll try again and let you know how it works -- either way. Jim Smith> Date: Fri=2C 14 Nov 2008 00:04:45 -0800> To: aeroelectric-list@m atronics.com> From: dralle@matronics.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fund Raiser Lagging Last Year By Over 30%... > > --> AeroElectric-List message p osted by: Matt Dralle > > As of the 13th=2C the Fund Raiser is currently about 30% behind last year in terms of the number of Co ntributions. Yet=2C oddly the number of messages posted per day is up by 10 to 20% on the average. It costs real money to run these Lists and they are supported 100% though your Contributions during the Fund Raiser. Won't you please take a minute right now to make your Contribution to keep these Lis ts up and running? > > Contribution Page: > > http://www.matronics.com/cont ribution > > Thank you for your support! > > Matt Dralle > Email List Admin =====================> > > _________________________________________________________________ Get 5 GB of storage with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_5gb_ 112008 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lessons Learned, Lessons Forgotten, Tools for Sharing At 09:53 PM 11/13/2008 -0800, you wrote: > >We found a way to not have any electrons for keeping the engine alive. >Easy enough not to have our problem, but very critical that you do it >right. The fat wire from the battery to the contactor shorted out on a >brake line and filled the cabin with smoke. Shutting off the master didn't >help since it was downstream of the short. When the industry accepted the notion that fat wire protection wasn't useful or necessary in TC aircraft, they were also cognizant of a need for due-diligence in the installation of said wires . . . separation and support being chief amongst concerns. The scenario cited above could also have caused a landing accident. If the short had been a soft fault, it might have slowly eroded a hole in a brake line causing loss of brakes. Here's an excerpt from a thread that ran though the List 4 years ago: ----- IMHO, the only advantage of zip-ties is reduced time for installation. I don't recommend using them in the engine compartment, they get brittle with time and can let loose without warning. This is mostly a materials issue. Like bolts, you can purchase cable ties in a wide variety of materials and qualities . . . and like bolts, you cannot deduce the any secrets of fabrication by simply looking at it. Not all plastics are equal but most all plastics are relatively cheap . . . so it's not difficult to purchase cable ties fabricated from known materials selected for their suitability to the task. If one wishes to acquire the Cadillac of cable ties made from the same stuff as the wire insulation of choice, you can purchase Tefzel ties from lots of places not the least of which is our friends a Steinair. See: http://www.steinair.com/cableties.htm Any supplier worth his salt will KNOW where his inventory comes from, what it's made of and MAY be able to advise for or against the use of any particular product in certain applications. When you buy that big jar of 1000 cable ties at Harbor Freight for $9.95, what you see is what you get and you cannot deduce much from simply seeing. For ties that you do not wish to look and or touch for a very long time, it's worth your time and effort to purchase ties by name brand manufacturers where the material and it's features are cited. Looking for UV, ozone, and/or hydrocarbon resistant products. These are NOT the generic nylon cable wraps offered by the vast majority of consumer oriented suppliers including Walmart and Harbor Freight. Tensioning zip-ties is also problematic. If you overtension, they WILL eat the insulation with enough vibration/time. There are at least two underlying issues here. Insulation is hard to "eat" . . . but certain insulations like Teflon are soft enough to flow under continuous pressure exceeding its compression strength combined with heating cycles. I have also seen wire-ties eat into engine mounts and aluminum when installed improperly There have been suggestions in this thread concerning abrasion of metal tubes like engine mounts due to the improper use of cable ties. I'll suggest that ANY form of wire attachment can become a problem for metals IF the attachment is loose enough to allow motion -AND- you add dust and grit to the space between the metal surface and whatever is riding against it. I had a power steering hose simply lay against a brake line in my '57 Chevy for a bunch of years. I lost brakes when a hole blew out in a section of the brake line thinned by continuous motion of a rubber hose lubricated with gritty grease. This didn't even involve a wire tie, "Adel" clamp or similar technology. These kinds of things CAN and DO happen and it has nothing to do with the type of retention technology and a LOT to do with craftsmanship. If you undertension, wire-ties they don't hold well. They have a tendency to slightly loosen after initial installation. To cure the above problems, you might consider a wire tie install tool. There are cable tie installation tools that feature adjustable and repeatable tensioning and cutoff adjustments. Many factories use them (including Raytheon Aircraft) and they've proven useful. They're not cheap. I've never bothered to own one. The range of acceptable tensions for wire ties is large and it's not hard to apply them by hand in a way that offers long service life. Wire-ties also have an affinity for human skin. You'll find this out down the road when you reach up behind your panel to do something and shortly thereafter donate a small amount of blood to the nylon god. This is not so much an issue with the tie but how the tail is cut off. Avoid using the classic diagonal wire cutter (dikes) . . . they part the material by driving two symmetrical wedges together and the finished cut protrudes from the tie buckle and is sharp. Use flush cutters like: http://www.action-electronics.com/cutters.htm http://www.home-jewelry-business-success-tips.com/wire-cutter.html http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Wire_Cutters/Flush-Cutters.jpg . . . and trim the tail off squarely and flush with the buckle and you'll not have to bleed on the project at any time in the future. For shear beauty (and no cuts on your hands) nothing can beat tying your wires together the old fashioned way. See the aeroelectric site for the technique. Yes, it's time consuming! and requires a certain amount of learned skill. Probably no more effort than required to learn the use of a cable-tie installation tool. However, there's nothing 'magic' about the techniques suggested in: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/cable_lace/cable_lace.html the choice of MATERIALS is still just as critical. You wouldn't want to tie up your wire bundles with kite string. Adels work great. They also weigh more and are time consuming to install. I'd use them to use larger wiring harnesses and for all wiring attachment in the engine compartment unless no other option exists. We're talking about two related but different tasks. The cable tie is used in many places to simply hold the bundle of wires together. The MS21919 (Adel) series clamps . . . http://aeroelectric.com/articles/adel.html . . . are certainly adequate to many applications. This doesn't mean that other materials and technologies are not recommended. Proper use of any technology is dependent upon understanding it's limitations. On occasion, a bundle of wires needs to be support on the airframe either for the purpose of simply holding the bundle in place -or- to prevent the bundle from coming into adverse contact with parts of the airplane. Like all things on an aircraft, each situation will require a balance of needs and limitations... Exactly. The situation is further improved with a thoughtful analysis of cause and effect for both materials selection and techniques applied to their use. --------------- We who make a living swinging hammers and CAD keyboards on airplanes experience the "red flag event" when any two objects come into contact with each other in an uncontrolled manner be it fluid lines, wires, control cables, etc. The drill is to (1) fasten them together with appropriate retention and buffering as illustrated in the cable lacing article cited above or (2) separate them. >Dragged the battery down to 5 volts. I presume this was a voltage measured on the ground after the smoke cleared. It's clearly indicative of a fault that drained the battery well past the "used up" voltage level of 10 volts. It would be interesting to have the carcasses of shorted wire and brake line to inspect . . . IMPORTANT . . . some readers of this thread may be thinking that a fuse would have prevented this. NO. ANL's and their cousins would probably have carried the current necessary to feed this fault and discharge this battery. It's a much more practical mitigation of risk to concentrate on installation technique than to add protection for lack of craftsmanship. >We do have one magneto and that's what kept it running long enough to get >on the ground. Very, very important that this wire not be allowed to short, Yup! > especially if both of your ignitions are on it. Please don't run both electrically dependent ignitions from the same power source. Better yet, make at least one of the ignition systems a self-powered Emag. These are USEFUL events to know about, contemplate, and analyze for discovery of lessons-learned (or reminders of lessons forgotten). These are the things that grey-beards in the factories do as sort of second-nature and it's become one of the most important services I can offer my customers. The problem is that fewer and fewer of my contemporaries get their hands dirty working on real hardware . . . and fewer and fewer of our production line folks are trained for or expected to think for themselves nor are they given such information to contemplate. It's just not the ISO9000 way. Bottom line is that while our TC airframes grow in parts count and operational complexity, the OBAM aircraft community is becoming the true expert in practical, low-risk aircraft design, fabrication and operation. Recall that several years ago we here on the AeroElectric-List mounted an effort to help defend Matronics from a silly, knee-jerk lawsuit. If we can put on the white hats and come rushing over the hill to rescue a good thing under attack, then we must certainly nurture it too. It may be heartwarming to offer somebody a Thanksgiving dinner with all the trimmings . . . but there are 364 OTHER days in the year too. If I were to send 1800 List members a bill for their share of my services for the year at my current rates, it would be a hell of a lot more than $10 apiece. If Matt finds it necessary to give up this endeavor for lack of support of the hardware, then we suffer loss of a critical communication tool. Be assured that I cannot spend the $time$ necessary to support the same mission one-on-one through my telephone or email! I've donated over $1000 in product to this cause, you folks can do a lot more for a lot less if you all participate. Do it now. Sent your $10 or more right now. The money we're talking about won't buy you a lunch at Bennigan's. This is MORE IMPORTANT than care and feeding of the occasional predatory lawyer. Go to . . . http://matronics.com/contribution Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fund Raiser Lagging Last Year By Over 30%... At 09:46 AM 11/14/2008 -0500, you wrote: >Matt: > >I tried several times last year to donate, but could not make it work and >gave up. I'll try again and let you know how it works -- either way. Just checked it. It flagged a typo in my email address and made me go back and fix it. After that, it worked as advertised. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:12 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Prestolite vs B&C At 06:17 PM 11/14/2008 +1100, you wrote: >After going to a lot of trouble to get the weight of my Mustang down I'm >running out of options to get my CG further forward. The only solution I >can think of is taking off my B&C starter and re-installing the original >Prestolite starter which I guess weighs about 10-15lbs more than the >B&C. Assuming it will fit in my cowling, are there any major >disadvantages (advantages?) in using the Prestolite. Thanks. Allan They're certainly a known quantity. Tho shalt not fly a tail-heavy airplane lest ye discover that you have but mere seconds to regret it. A guy has to do what a guy has to do. What airplane are you working with and what combination of installation decisions painted you into this corner? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:29 AM PST US From: "Peter Pengilly" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Prestolite vs B&C A guy called Mark Landoll (405-392-3847 from Sport Aviation) used to sell a harmonic dampener that bolted to the crankshaft and weighed 15+lb. It might help with the cg issues and also make the engine run more smoothly? I believe a B&C starter is around 9lb lighter than a Prestolite, but the cg of a Prestolite is a couple of inches further aft. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allan Aaron Sent: 14 November 2008 07:18 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Prestolite vs B&C After going to a lot of trouble to get the weight of my Mustang down I'm running out of options to get my CG further forward. The only solution I can think of is taking off my B&C starter and re-installing the original Prestolite starter which I guess weighs about 10-15lbs more than the B&C. Assuming it will fit in my cowling, are there any major disadvantages (advantages?) in using the Prestolite. Thanks. Allan ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:02 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Prestolite vs B&C From: "Allan Aaron" Bob, it's a Mustang II. The CG is within the allowable range as long as I manage my fuel properly and don't carry any meaningful baggage. However, I suspect the rear CG is making my handling on landing more difficult. As for the combination of decisions .. I bought the plane as a part completed project with wet wings (rather than a single forward mounted fuel tank). I've relocated the battery to the firewall (using an odyssey PC625 - I might be able to add a second battery there or maybe a heavier one but really like the odyssey). I have a CS prop (a fair bit more weight forward). The only thing I regret is making a slick and very lightweight carbon fibre cowling whereas I could have made a much cheaper and heavier fibreglass cowl:) Allan They're certainly a known quantity. Tho shalt not fly a tail-heavy airplane lest ye discover that you have but mere seconds to regret it. A guy has to do what a guy has to do. What airplane are you working with and what combination of installation decisions painted you into this corner? Bob . . . At 06:17 PM 11/14/2008 +1100, you wrote: >After going to a lot of trouble to get the weight of my Mustang down >I'm running out of options to get my CG further forward. The only >solution I can think of is taking off my B&C starter and re-installing >the original Prestolite starter which I guess weighs about 10-15lbs >more than the B&C. Assuming it will fit in my cowling, are there any >major disadvantages (advantages?) in using the Prestolite. Thanks. >Allan ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:30 PM PST US From: "David M" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Prestolite vs B&C ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:21 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Prestolite vs B&C Pretty good idea, and he also sells a simple steel ring of about the same weight that's a lot less expensive than the damper (had one on my 1st RV-4). BTW, if you need a Prestolite, I think I've got one on the shelf. Email me off list & I'll try to come up with a price. Charlie Peter Pengilly wrote: > > A guy called Mark Landoll (405-392-3847 from Sport Aviation) used to > sell a harmonic dampener that bolted to the crankshaft and weighed > 15+lb. It might help with the cg issues and also make the engine run > more smoothly? I believe a B&C starter is around 9lb lighter than a > Prestolite, but the cg of a Prestolite is a couple of inches further aft. > > Peter > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Allan Aaron > *Sent:* 14 November 2008 07:18 > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Prestolite vs B&C > > > > After going to a lot of trouble to get the weight of my Mustang down > I'm running out of options to get my CG further forward. The only > solution I can think of is taking off my B&C starter and re-installing > the original Prestolite starter which I guess weighs about 10-15lbs > more than the B&C. Assuming it will fit in my cowling, are there any > major disadvantages (advantages?) in using the Prestolite. Thanks. Allan > > * * ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:56 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Prestolite vs B&C In a message dated 11/14/2008 1:21:17 A.M. Central Standard Time, aaaron@tvp.com.au writes: The only solution I can think of is taking off my B&C starter and re-installing the original Prestolite starter which I guess weighs about 10-15lbs more than the B&C. >>> I replaced a Delco starter (similar to Prestolite if not the same thing) with a Sky-tec which really screwed up the W&B on my O-320/wood prop RV-6A exactly as you describe. After hearing many recommendations on the RV-list and elsewhere over the years, I added a Landoll Ring (a little over $100) to my ring gear to balance things back out, but will need to get everything dynamically balanced before I know the full effects of the Ring. Copied from the Yeller Pages: MARK LANDOLL 405-392-3847 405-685-0239 _landollskydoll2001@yahoo.com_ (mailto:%20landollskydoll2001@yahoo.com) STARTERS, MASS/DAMPING RINGS, ALTERNATORS Mark Phillips Columbia, TN _http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/_ (http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:05 PM PST US From: "David M" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Prestolite vs B&C ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:18 PM PST US From: Ed Holyoke Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lessons Learned, Lessons Forgotten, Tools for Sharing Bob, I didn't build the plane, but I did maintain it for more than 3 years (and annual condition inspections) without noticing the danger posed by the proximity of the two. I will never overlook this particular issue again. The builder used a stainless braided line for the brake which crossed near the battery cable at 90 degrees. The last time I replaced the battery, apparently I failed to insure separation and it rubbed through causing the short. The current was conducted along the brake line to the gear leg mount where it was also rubbing, another oversight on my part. The 5606 was all boiled off and filled the cabin with smoke. My nephew declared emergency and shut off the master and E-busses while holding the canopy part open, so he could breathe, with one hand and flying with the other. He found an airport and landed and yes, the brake was not functional. The voltage was measured after the fact, as you surmised, Bob. When I got there 90 minutes later, the brake line was still in contact with the cable. The cable had a total of 3 broken strands and some localized discoloration. There was about a half a square inch of insulation missing. It was returned to service with a few layers of heat shrink over the scar. The braided line was limp and I made a replacement in the field out of the aluminum tubing that Van's supplies. There is now very positive separation between it and the battery cable, believe me. I have replaced the fluid with the high temp variant, MIL- PRF-83282. I also replaced the O-rings in the calipers with Viton for higher temperature capacity. I just wanted to share this story in the hope that people designing, installing or maintaining systems take a hard look at the way the battery cable to the contactor is protected from harm. This is pretty much the only place in the plane where an insulation failure cannot be mitigated by turning off a switch or automatically by circuit protection. The other issue, as has been mentioned, is that if 2 electronic ignitions are hooked to 1 battery, bad stuff you hadn't accounted for could take them both down at once. I don't particularly like magnetos and I think that, barring a failure in the power provided to them, an electronic ignition is probably way more reliable. The thought of having an magneto, which will almost certainly crap out at some point, as a backup to a more reliable system offends my sensibilities. My next airplane will have 2 EIs on board, and 2 batteries also. One of them may wind up being little to save weight, but I don't want all my eggs in one basket. Pax, Ed Holyoke Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 09:53 PM 11/13/2008 -0800, you wrote: >> >> >> We found a way to not have any electrons for keeping the engine >> alive. Easy enough not to have our problem, but very critical that >> you do it right. The fat wire from the battery to the contactor >> shorted out on a brake line and filled the cabin with smoke. Shutting >> off the master didn't help since it was downstream of the short. > > When the industry accepted the notion that fat wire > protection wasn't useful or necessary in TC aircraft, > they were also cognizant of a need for due-diligence in > the installation of said wires . . . separation and > support being chief amongst concerns. > > The scenario cited above could also have caused a > landing accident. If the short had been a soft fault, > it might have slowly eroded a hole in a brake line > causing loss of brakes. > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:14 PM PST US From: "David M" Subject: AeroElectric-List: test email ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:38 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Squeal PTT From: "Allan Aaron" Paul, you were right. It was my lightspeed Twenty3G headset that was the problem. My 20XLc work fine as do the passive set I used. I=92ll email lightspeed and see if they will fix them. Thanks for the tip! Allan On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Hi Allan, I called Light Speed and the worked on them at no charge to address the problem. I can't say that it was completely fixed, but it improved them to the point of making them usable. Cheers, Paul Checked by AVG. 13/11/2008 6:01 PM Checked by AVG. 14/11/2008 7:32 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.