AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Wed 11/26/08


Total Messages Posted: 7



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     0. 12:08 AM - Just A Few More Days... (Matt Dralle)
     1. 04:35 AM - Re: Fast-On Tabs and Soldering (Robert McCallum)
     2. 05:37 AM - Re: 2-10 SWITCH - Can this be done? (Sam Hoskins)
     3. 07:16 AM - Re: 2-10 SWITCH - Can this be done? (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
     4. 07:45 AM - Re: 2-10 SWITCH - Can this be done? (Sam Hoskins)
     5. 10:25 AM - Re: Another leaking battery (Chris Stone)
     6. 08:25 PM - Re: Fast-On Tabs and Soldering (Bill Schlatterer)
 
 
 


Message 0


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    Time: 12:08:06 AM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Just A Few More Days...
    Dear Listers, There are just a few more days left in this year's List Fund Raiser. There are some great gifts available when you make a qualifying Contribution and there's plenty still available. Don't forget that its *your* Contribution that keeps the computers running, the electricity turned on, and the computer room AC cooling! If you look forward to reading your List email each day, won't you please take a minute right now to make your personal Contribution? Credit Card or Paypal: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Personal Check: Matronics / Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore, CA 94550 Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle


    Message 1


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    Time: 04:35:52 AM PST US
    From: "Robert McCallum" <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
    Subject: Re: Fast-On Tabs and Soldering
    Fast-On Tabs and SolderingDave; It matters not what type of connection the connector provides, the wire attachment is identical. Ring, tongue, hook, fork, fast-on female, fast-on male, etc, etc. The wire termination parts are the same, so the methods of attachment are the same. You can get non-insulated versions of all of these as well as the PIDG style for crimping. Bob McC ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave VanLanen To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:17 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fast-On Tabs and Soldering Chapter 9 of the 'Connection discusses the tradeoffs between soldered and crimped connections, and suggests that for those who do not want to invest in crimp-on terminals and associated tools, soldering is acceptable and possibly preferable for use on airplanes. This chapter goes on to explain the proper method for soldering and heat-shrinking ring terminals to wire. However, a solder method for fast-on tabs is not addressed. Since some electrical components come with male fast-on tabs, it is necessary to terminate some wires with female fast-on tabs. Do I still need to invest in the crimp-on terminals and associated tools to do fast-on tabs, or is there a method and terminal type for soldering fast-on tabs as well, and if so, is there any documentation on this?


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:37:33 AM PST US
    From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: 2-10 SWITCH - Can this be done?
    Okay. I have completely split the two EFI fuel pumps - one from the engine bat bus and one from the main bat bus. The four primary injectors are now fed solely by the main bat bus and the backup throttle body (TB) injector is fed solely by the engine bat bus. A single double-pole switch turns on both A & B sides of the ECU - OFF/BOTH. The ECU has it's own dedicated panel with it's own A/B switch, not shown here. I have not figured another, more independent way to feed the four ignition coils from either the main or bat bus, so I guess I'll leave that switch arrangement alone. I think it's important to be able to feed from either bus. I have also rearranged the remaining switches a little better. Here are the modified arrangements: http://www.mistakeproofing.net/transfer/Isolated_POWER_DISTRIBUTION.pdf http://www.mistakeproofing.net/transfer/Switches_POWER_DISTRIBUTION.pdf Thanks for everyone's input. A team always has a better result than just individuals slugging away. Sam On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@cox.net> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@cox.net> > > At 01:23 PM 11/24/2008, you wrote: > >> Thanks Bob. Let me cogitate over that a few hours. >> Sam >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <<mailto: >> nuckolls.bob@cox.net>nuckolls.bob@cox.net> wrote: >> <<mailto:nuckolls.bob@cox.net>nuckolls.bob@cox.net> >> >> At 10:53 AM 11/24/2008, you wrote: >> Bob, >> >> Here are my basic thoughts and rational on the design. >> >> The <<http://www.rotaryaviation.com/eficont.html> >> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/eficont.html>RWS EFI controller (ECU) has >> two separate Ignition/fuel injection controllers mounted on a single board. >> These are labeled as A & B. They are almost identical and separate. >> >> >> They allow separate +12V supply inputs, as well as separate ignition and >> fuel injector output triggers. The two battery busses, main and engine, can >> each supply the A or B sides of the ECU. >> >> >> I am able to select a feed from either the main or the engine battery bus >> and supply it to either the A input of the B input. On my drawing, the >> engine bus is sometimes reffered to as "backup". >> > > Yes, there are MANY combinations of things you can do that > function as advertised. I've seen airplanes at fly-ins that > have LOTS of switches. > > Your task as system designer and integrator of components is > to 'optimize' the design. I.e., what components can be eliminated > to reduce complexity from the (1) perspective of reliability and > space savings and (2) reduce pilot workload for having to make > the right decisions for continued flight when some part of the > system decides to throw a temper tantrum. > > I'll suggest you reconsider your design with the notion that > (1) the hardware SHARED by plan-a and plan-b systems needs to > be an absolute minimum. (2) Likelihood of having two failures > in the airplane on any single tank full of fuel is exceedingly > rare (read insignificant). (3) Manage energy sources and loads > to meet design goals for endurance when a failure does occur. > > I'm certain that you'll discover a way to reduce numbers of > switches down to independent control of system-A and system-B > probably as simple as one switch per system. Does each ECU > have its own dedicated fuel pump or can either pump supply > either system? If the former, combine the pumps on the > ECU controls. If the later, one switch per pump is called for. > > Bob . . . > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:16:51 AM PST US
    From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany@verizon.net>
    Subject: 2-10 SWITCH - Can this be done?
    Okay. I have completely split the two EFI fuel pumps - one from the engine bat bus and one from the main bat bus. The four primary injectors are now fed solely by the main bat bus and the backup throttle body (TB) injector is fed solely by the engine bat bus. A single double-pole switch turns on both A & B sides of the ECU - OFF/BOTH. The ECU has it's own dedicated panel with it's own A/B switch, not shown here. I have not figured another, more independent way to feed the four ignition coils from either the main or bat bus, so I guess I'll leave that switch arrangement alone. I think it's important to be able to feed from either bus. I have also rearranged the remaining switches a little better. Here are the modified arrangements: http://www.mistakeproofing.net/transfer/Isolated_POWER_DISTRIBUTION.pdf http://www.mistakeproofing.net/transfer/Switches_POWER_DISTRIBUTION.pdf Sam, Going back to your first request for info on this thread, you asked how to operate either of 2 ECU's from 2 separate power sources through 1 switch. Several individuals indicated that it is not a good thing to go through 1 switch and thus create a "single point of failure" for both systems. You now have a single point of failure in your ECU ON / Off switch. Assuming that you will need to have 1 ECU and 1 EFI pump operating continuously, wire ECU A and EFI# 1 through a DPDT switch, the one you presently have for your ECU ON / OFF, connected as follows: Engine Battery Bus to pin 2; Engine Battery Bus to pin 3 (fused separately); ECU A to pin 1; EFI Pump 1 to pin 4. Repeat similar wiring from Main battery Bus to ECU B and EFI pump 2. This will give you a totally separate, redundant system and will also eliminate 1 switch. Now when you turn on switch #1, ECU A and EFI fuel pump# 1 will be on, supplied with power from the Engine Battery Bus. If you turn on Switch# 2, ECU B and EFI fuel pump# 2 will be on, powered from Main Battery Bus. This is only one of many ways to wire a fault tolerant redundant system. I am sure others will have different ideas for wiring schemes.


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:45:21 AM PST US
    From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: 2-10 SWITCH - Can this be done?
    Roger, you are correct. My oops. Right after I hit the send button I realized my error. I changed it so the ECU is controlled by two independent switches. I had to add in another switch, but I laid out the panel to be more logical. The second row is all the backup stuff. You can see that if you click on the links below. This is what I came up with before your e-mail. I'll spend a few minutes and look over your suggestions. Thanks. My bad. Sam "I'm not a real airplane builder. I just play one at home". On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 9:12 AM, ROGER & JEAN CURTIS < mrspudandcompany@verizon.net> wrote: > Okay. > > I have completely split the two EFI fuel pumps - one from > the engine bat bus and one from the main bat bus. > > The four primary injectors are now fed solely by the main > bat bus and the backup throttle body (TB) injector is fed solely by the > engine bat bus. > > A single double-pole switch turns on both A & B sides of the > ECU - OFF/BOTH. The ECU has it's own dedicated panel with it's own A/B > switch, not shown here. > > I have not figured another, more independent way to feed the > four ignition coils from either the main or bat bus, so I guess I'll leave > that switch arrangement alone. I think it's important to be able to feed > from either bus. > > I have also rearranged the remaining switches a little > better. > > Here are the modified arrangements: > > > http://www.mistakeproofing.net/transfer/Isolated_POWER_DISTRIBUTION.pdf > > > http://www.mistakeproofing.net/transfer/Switches_POWER_DISTRIBUTION.pdf > > > Sam, > > Going back to your first request for info on this thread, you asked how to > operate either of 2 ECU's from 2 separate power sources through 1 switch. > Several individuals indicated that it is not a good thing to go through 1 > switch and thus create a "single point of failure" for both systems. You > now have a single point of failure in your ECU ON / Off switch. > Assuming that you will need to have 1 ECU and 1 EFI pump operating > continuously, wire ECU A and EFI# 1 through a DPDT switch, the one you > presently have for your ECU ON / OFF, connected as follows: > > Engine Battery Bus to pin 2; Engine Battery Bus to pin 3 (fused > separately); > ECU A to pin 1; EFI Pump 1 to pin 4. Repeat similar wiring from Main > battery Bus to ECU B and EFI pump 2. This will give you a totally > separate, > redundant system and will also eliminate 1 switch. > > Now when you turn on switch #1, ECU A and EFI fuel pump# 1 will be on, > supplied with power from the Engine Battery Bus. If you turn on Switch# 2, > ECU B and EFI fuel pump# 2 will be on, powered from Main Battery Bus. > > This is only one of many ways to wire a fault tolerant redundant system. I > am sure others will have different ideas for wiring schemes. > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:25:21 AM PST US
    From: Chris Stone <rv8iator@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Another leaking battery
    AA alkaline cells... I have been using Panasonic and Costco brand AA cells for 10+ years without a leak. Knock on wood. Chris Stone RV-8 Newberg, OR -----Original Message----- >From: "earl_schroeder@juno.com" <earl_schroeder@juno.com> >Sent: Nov 25, 2008 8:45 AM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Another leaking battery > > >Yesterday I had the occasion to open the battery compartment on a small audio amplifier that uses four AA alkaline batteries. All four had leaked and two had to be pried out. Apple cider vinegar cleaned up the mess with the usual bubbles normally seen when using baking soda on lead acid battery leaks. > >The batteries were purchased at Harbor Freight with Thunderbolt Magnum made in China on their labels. > >I believe we are approaching the point that after using a device powered by batteries, they must be removed until the next use to prevent problems. I remember doing this in years gone by.. Earl > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:25:24 PM PST US
    From: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Fast-On Tabs and Soldering
    Dave, do yourself a favor,...get the tools. They are very cheap in the overall scheme of things, will make your work quicker and probably cleaner as well. You can crimp connectors on in lots of places that you would never get at easily with a soldering gun. Do solder splices if you get the chance. The look good, and are trim and clean. The fast-on crimper tool falls in the same category as band saws, hemostats, side cutters, wire strippers, angle drill attachments, rivet fan guides, scotch bright wheels on a bench grinder, air drills, and center punches. You can do without any or all of them but you will do it better, faster, and cleaner with good "mechanical help". The cost of good tools is really nothing in the overall cost of the plane and you can probably get at least 50% back when you sell them after finishing. Good luck Bill S 7a finishing _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave VanLanen Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:17 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fast-On Tabs and Soldering Chapter 9 of the 'Connection discusses the tradeoffs between soldered and crimped connections, and suggests that for those who do not want to invest in crimp-on terminals and associated tools, soldering is acceptable and possibly preferable for use on airplanes. This chapter goes on to explain the proper method for soldering and heat-shrinking ring terminals to wire. However, a solder method for fast-on tabs is not addressed. Since some electrical components come with male fast-on tabs, it is necessary to terminate some wires with female fast-on tabs. Do I still need to invest in the crimp-on terminals and associated tools to do fast-on tabs, or is there a method and terminal type for soldering fast-on tabs as well, and if so, is there any documentation on this?




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