---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/30/08: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:10 AM - Last "Official" Day Of The List Fund Raiser! (Matt Dralle) 1. 06:36 AM - Re: Failed Contactor? (RALPH HOOVER) 2. 08:55 AM - Re: Circuit lesson (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 08:56 AM - Re: Re: Failed contactor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 09:01 AM - Re: RFI problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 09:08 AM - Re: Re: E-Bus Alternate Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 09:14 AM - Re: Choosing Z-Diagram base (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: E-Bus Alternate Switch (Henry Trzeciakowski) 8. 06:02 PM - 12/24V systems (D Fritz) 9. 07:29 PM - Re: Failed Contactor (Emrath) 10. 08:03 PM - Re: 12/24V systems (Bruce Gray) 11. 11:04 PM - Re: 12/24V systems (n801bh@netzero.com) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:03 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Last "Official" Day Of The List Fund Raiser! Dear Listers, Its November 30th and that means three things:.. 1) Today I am now officially 45 years old... 2) It marks that last "official" day of this year's List Fund Raiser! 3) Its the last day I will be bugging everyone for a whole year! If you use the Lists and enjoy the content and the no-advertising, no-spam, and no-censorship way in which they're run, please make a Contribution today to support their continued operation and upkeep. Your $20 or $30 goes a long way to keep the List bills paid. I will be posting the List of Contributors next week so make sure your name is on it! Thank you to everyone that has made a Contribution so far this year! It is greatly appreciated. http://www.matronics.com/contribution Best regards, Matt Dralle Email List and Forum Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:08 AM PST US From: "RALPH HOOVER" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Failed Contactor? Marty, Just to amplify what Bob has said. A simple troubleshooting technique is as follows. (Ground to operate circuit as in Master Contactor) 1. (Switch off) Measure from Ground to either small terminal should be Battery voltage. 2. If 0 on both terminals battery supply is missing. If 0 on only one terminal then the coil is open. 3. (Switch on) If both terminals are battery voltage the ground circuit through the switch is open. 4. If one is battery and one is 0 then the contactor should operate. (If not the coil is suspect). 5. If the coil is suspect measure it's DC resistance with an ohmmeter (I imagine less than 100 ohms is good, It will probably be OK or open to very high resistance, If shorted expect smoke) 6. As an aside a 12V test lamp between the ground side of the contactor and battery ground should glow if the supply voltage is present, the coil is OK and the switch is off. With the switch on it will go off if the ground circuit is OK. Reading the voltage across the contactor coil verified that there is no voltage drop and thus no operation but it doesn't tell you what part of the circuit is open. Measuring to the battery ground tells you exactly what is missing. Usually parts are reliable (although not 100%), and problems are found in installation workmanship. Suspect bad crimps and the like. (I have been doing electronic wiring for 45 years and I still screw-up a crimp now and again (crimp insulation only, cut the wire, not crimped tight etc.)). Check everything! Happy hunting. Ralph & Laura Hoover RV7A N527LR 21 hours and having a ball -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Emrath Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:03 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Failed Contactor? I was demonstrating my newly wired panel for family this weekend and the contractor mysteriously dropped off line. I had my battery charger connected to the battery and system voltage was 13.3v DC. When the master is OFF, I'm seeing .5v between the two small contactor terminal with the diode removed and zero volts when the master is ON, yet contactor will not activate. All other external wiring checks out and the contractor is wired per the B&C web site. System has been working fine up until now, any one have ideas as to what has happened? Did the Contactor suddenly go bad? Marty RV6A Brentwood TN getting ready to paint! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:50 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Circuit lesson At 05:58 PM 11/29/2008, you wrote: > >Bob, >Why do we feed power to the starter contactor thru the master contactor? >Could one run a short hot lead from the always hot terminal on the master >contactor to the starter contactor. Thus eliminating the voltage drop and >stress on the master contactor when starting. Interested in your comments. > >Marty RV-6A Brentwood TN You've already seen a good answer to this. I would elaborate by sharing two tense moments in OBAM aircraft where the starter contactor stuck closed (it's the most abused contactor in the airplane) and the battery master was not wired to shut down the starter. In one case, the starter survived but the 17 a.h. battery case melted. In the other case, the pilot was able to get out, pull the cowl and disconnect the battery before anything smoked or melted. Type certificated aircraft have always been wired such that EVERYTHING other than battery-bus power goes through the battery master contactor. Turning off the battery switch gets the electrical system the most benign condition possible. Bob . . . Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:36 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: re: Failed contactor At 05:58 PM 11/29/2008, you wrote: > >Bob: > >I disconnected the diode between the terminals. With the master off, I read >on my Fluke meter 13.34 VDC on the terminal fed from the jumper to the fat >battery terminal. The other terminal with the ground lead to the master >switch reads 0.47 VDC with the master off. With the master switch on, >voltage between the two small terminals reads 13.34 VDC. I checked the >continuity of the master wire and switch to ground and it works fine. I also >disconnected everything and get an open circuit reading between the two >small terminals, no resistance and no short circuit warning on my Fluke. If >you ask me, the small internal coil on the contractor has failed open. Does >this seem possible with a new contactor? ANYTHING is possible. Your measurements do indicate that the contactor coil is indeed open. It would be interesting to do a tear-down and find out where it broke. You should be able to get a replacement from whoever sold it to you. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:10 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RFI problem At 10:13 AM 11/29/2008, you wrote: > > >Bob, > >I need to get 5-10 feet outside of the building before the reception clears >up. Hmmm . . . assuming it's a metal building, it seems likely that the noise is radiating directly into the radio through the enclosure. You stated that the antenna was outside and would therefore expect to see a similar benefit of shielding or distance attenuation. If you have several fixtures, it's probably easier to find a radio that is more resistant to local noises than to figure out how to filter/shield the lamps. As a final experiment, can you pull the antenna coax outside and then operated the radio outside the building while connected to the antenna coax? Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-Bus Alternate Switch At 08:02 PM 11/29/2008, you wrote: > > >Bob: > >In your Z-32 Diagram, you use a 1-3 Switch - Is this a B&C S700-1-3: Single >Pole-Double Throw ??? Yes. This presumes also that your system includes a pullable 5A breaker for the alternator field supply. This allows you to do ground operations battery only by pulling the field breaker. >My second question is: > >I have a Honeywell 1TL-1-2D (MS24658-22D) - Locking Single Pole-Single >Throw that I purchased from Digi-Key and I'm wondering if that would work in >place of the 1-3 ? If it can, then this switch has 2 terminals: #2 & >#3..... (NO #1)....would I wire the ground to #2 and 22g from the relay to >#3...........or do I really need to order a SPDT ? The Honeywell switch is fine. The 1TL1-2D is OFF when the toggle is on the key-way side. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/Microswitch_TL-Series.pdf This means that the switch would have to be installed key-way down. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:07 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Choosing Z-Diagram base At 11:33 AM 11/17/2008, you wrote: > >Two questions on Z13-8... > >I like the design. My engine comes with an 80 amp internally regulated >alternator. Assuming its use, but not yet needing 80 amps (may add >air-conditioning later), may I reduce the current at the ANL using say, >a 50 amp ANL? I am assuming the shunt would be 80 AMP coming off the >Alt. No, the ANL or any other protective device is intended to open under extreme stress of faulting a wire. It's not a controlling device to change or limit the effects of your alternator. Aside from weight and size, there's nothing wrong with having a "too big" alternator. There's a bunch of C-150/ C-152 flying with 60A alternators! Lots of OBAM aircraft with Continental engines use salvaged 60A alternators from a Cessna even if their power requirements are a hand-full of amps. >Does B & C offer a product to monitor/switch (from DC Power Master sw) >an alternator that is already internally regulated? Any switch (including those sold by B&B) will control an alternator that is controllable. Do you know the brand and part number of the alternator supplied? Are there instructions with it that indicate the alternator is controllable? Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:36 PM PST US From: "Henry Trzeciakowski" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-Bus Alternate Switch So Bob, If I understand what you're saying: mount the 1TL-1-2D keyway down, #2 terminal = ground wire and #3 terminal = 22 g wire from S401 relay.....or do I have it backwards ??? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 9:07 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-Bus Alternate Switch > > At 08:02 PM 11/29/2008, you wrote: > > > > > >Bob: > > > >In your Z-32 Diagram, you use a 1-3 Switch - Is this a B&C S700-1-3: Single > >Pole-Double Throw ??? > > Yes. This presumes also that your system includes > a pullable 5A breaker for the alternator field supply. > This allows you to do ground operations battery only > by pulling the field breaker. > >My second question is: > > > >I have a Honeywell 1TL-1-2D (MS24658-22D) - Locking Single Pole-Single > >Throw that I purchased from Digi-Key and I'm wondering if that would work in > >place of the 1-3 ? If it can, then this switch has 2 terminals: #2 & > >#3..... (NO #1)....would I wire the ground to #2 and 22g from the relay to > >#3...........or do I really need to order a SPDT ? > > The Honeywell switch is fine. The 1TL1-2D is OFF when > the toggle is on the key-way side. See: > > http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/Microswitch_TL-Series.pdf > > This means that the switch would have to be installed > key-way down. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:15 PM PST US From: D Fritz Subject: AeroElectric-List: 12/24V systems Hello all, I'm building a Velocity with a Deltahawk Diesel engine.- This engine requires 24 volts to start, so I'm planing a 24 V system.- Most ev erything I'm installing is able to handle 24V without any problem; however, the hydraulic pump and associated circuitry that raise the gear are design ed for 12V, so I'll need a 12V bus.- I've been looking at battery equaliz ers as a way to feed this bus from a center tap while not causing a battery imbalance.- There are several different models out there, primarily aime d at RVs, big rigs, and solar electric battery banks. Does anyone have experience with these units?- Any recommendations on the best unit for use in an aircraft I probably need a 10 or 20 A unit)?- Al so, what kind of failure modes do I need to prepare for in architecting a s ystem using these.- Finally, will having one of these units allow me to e ffectively charge both batteries using a 12V battery charger (this isn't te rribly important, but nice to know). Thanks in advance for your help. Dan =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:11 PM PST US From: "Emrath" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Failed Contactor Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll call Todd at B&C tomorrow about this. Marty Subject: Re: re: Failed contactor From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III (nuckolls.bob@cox.net) At 05:58 PM 11/29/2008, you wrote: > >Bob: > >I disconnected the diode between the terminals. With the master off, I read >on my Fluke meter 13.34 VDC on the terminal fed from the jumper to the fat >battery terminal. The other terminal with the ground lead to the master >switch reads 0.47 VDC with the master off. With the master switch on, >voltage between the two small terminals reads 13.34 VDC. I checked the >continuity of the master wire and switch to ground and it works fine. I also >disconnected everything and get an open circuit reading between the two >small terminals, no resistance and no short circuit warning on my Fluke. If >you ask me, the small internal coil on the contractor has failed open. Does >this seem possible with a new contactor? ANYTHING is possible. Your measurements do indicate that the contactor coil is indeed open. It would be interesting to do a tear-down and find out where it broke. You should be able to get a replacement from whoever sold it to you. Bob . . . Marty ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:05 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 12/24V systems I'll ask the obvious. Have you contacted the vendor who makes the hydraulic pump to see if a 24v version is available. If the pump is made by Oildyne, I'm sure a 28v version can be had. Same with relays. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of D Fritz Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:59 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: 12/24V systems Hello all, I'm building a Velocity with a Deltahawk Diesel engine. This engine requires 24 volts to start, so I'm planing a 24 V system. Most everything I'm installing is able to handle 24V without any problem; however, the hydraulic pump and associated circuitry that raise the gear are designed for 12V, so I'll need a 12V bus. I've been looking at battery equalizers as a way to feed this bus from a center tap while not causing a battery imbalance. There are several different models out there, primarily aimed at RVs, big rigs, and solar electric battery banks. Does anyone have experience with these units? Any recommendations on the best unit for use in an aircraft I probably need a 10 or 20 A unit)? Also, what kind of failure modes do I need to prepare for in architecting a system using these. Finally, will having one of these units allow me to effectively charge both batteries using a 12V battery charger (this isn't terribly important, but nice to know). Thanks in advance for your help. Dan 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:29 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 12/24V systems I think his biggest obstacle will be actually obtaining a DeltaHawk engi ne, do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Bruce Gray" wrote: I'll ask the obvious. Have you contacted the vendor who makes the hydrau lic pump to see if a 24v version is available. If the pump is made by Oi ldyne, I'm sure a 28v version can be had. Same with relays. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroele ctric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of D Fritz Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:59 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: 12/24V systems Hello all, I'm building a Velocity with a Deltahawk Diesel engine. This engine requires 24 volts to start, so I'm planing a 24 V system. Most everything I'm installing is able to handle 24V without any problem; how ever, the hydraulic pump and associated circuitry that raise the gear ar e designed for 12V, so I'll need a 12V bus. I've been looking at batter y equalizers as a way to feed this bus from a center tap while not causi ng a battery imbalance. There are several different models out there, p rimarily aimed at RVs, big rigs, and solar electric battery banks. Does anyone have experience with these units? Any recommendations on th e best unit for use in an aircraft I probably need a 10 or 20 A unit)? Also, what kind of failure modes do I need to prepare for in architectin g a system using these. Finally, will having one of these units allow m e to effectively charge both batteries using a 12V battery charger (this isn't terribly important, but nice to know). Thanks in advance for your help. Dan 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3Dhref='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www. matronics.com/contribution3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dhref='3D"http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?AeroElectric-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElec tric-List3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3Dhref='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums. matronics.com3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== _____________________________________________________________________ Get Freebies & Coupons -- Free of Hassle at FreeInternet.com! 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