Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:47 AM - Re: Use of Vans ES14684 60A Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 06:07 AM - Re: breaker specs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:15 AM - Re: Does the Alternator shut down if battery power is removed? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:15 AM - Re: Help debugging an alternator noise problem (Ken)
5. 08:03 AM - Re: Help debugging an alternator noise problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:32 AM - Re: Where to find closed-end lugs for Super-CCA cable (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 02:12 PM - Dancing ammeter and alternator drop outs (Gautier, Thomas N)
8. 05:15 PM - Z-11 Questions (grjtucson)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Use of Vans ES14684 60A Alternator |
At 02:45 PM 12/2/2008, you wrote:
>Sorry if this question has been dealt with before, but I would like
>to know if use of a Vans ES 14684 60A alternator with internal
>regulation would be suitable in a system designed around Bob's Z-11
>Generic Light Aircraft Electrical System. As this alternator is
>internally regulated, is the generic "Ford" regulator still needed
>or should it be eliminated?
It's eliminated.
> I am also considering purchase of the Overvoltage Module (OVM-14)
> from B & C but see there is a caution about using OV protection
> with this alternator on Vans site. The caution concerns a need to
> contact the manufacturer of the OV device to ensure any special
> wiring requirements are met. Would the Z-11 diagram show the
> correct wiring for use of this device with this alternator?
I was recently offered a tour of an alternator/
starter remanufacturing facility that produces about
22,000 units a day. They box product for a host of customers
not the least of which is AC Delco and includes many of
big-name chain stores.
I learned that it's exceedingly difficult if not impossible
for a "small" users of alternators to acquire a factory-fresh
device . . . The folks who build brand new product want to
schedule car-loads of units to a minimum number of deliveries.
This is because transportation and handling is a MAJOR cost of
the product.
I'm working on a white-paper that will publish details of
what I learned but the short answer now is that we don't
know where Van's alternators come from. We do know that SOME
parts were vulnerable to their own load dump transients
in the past.
I do know that the factory, QA and IR&D facilities I toured
produces products intended to withstand a series of five, max-rpm,
max-current, high-temperature load-dumps in a row without damage
to its internals. I witnessed one such demonstration in their labs.
14684 is a "Lester Number" . . . an industry cataloging
system that brings parts of like functionality into a
specific application. While this part number MIGHT
get you a device with all original parts from the
likes of Nipon Denso or Bosch, it's not a guarantee
and most likely, the part has been disassembled for
some manner of refurbishment.
If you want to buy 100 pcs minimum per month, you
can put your hands on brand-new 14684 machines
here:
http://tinyurl.com/5sguzm
Bottom line is that there are dozens of alternators
from DOZENS OF SOURCES that are adaptable to your
engine. By adaptable we mean that the alternator
requires appropriate mounting configuration to
bolt to your machine. Van offers a kit of tension
arm and bracket to adapt a "14684" alternator to
Lycoming engines at:
http://tinyurl.com/5uz5n6
I'll call the reader's attention to the caveat on
Van's page that reads as follows:
Caution: Builders planning to utilize overvoltage protection with
Van's internally regulated 60 amp alternator should consult with
the manufacturer of the overvoltage device to insure that any
special wiring requirements are met during installation.
I've never enjoyed direct conversation with folks
at Van's in spite of specific attempts
to enter into constructive dialog. Their
initial reaction to reported failures of
alternators combined with b-lead disconnect
contactors was not so measured as the statement
above. As it turns out, not all alternators
are potential victims to their own load-dump
transients in spite of the fact that they
have THE SAME part number.
The short answer is that installing ANY internally
regulated alternator with external ov protection
described in:
http://tinyurl.com/5n989y
. . . is a perfectly rational thing to do. Just
be wary of turning the alternator OFF under
load at more than idle RPM until the final
solution described is available.
Alternatively, one may certainly run the alternator
"barefoot" as many folks recommend. This discussion
isn't about imperatives. It's about risk reduction.
>I also have a Grand Rapids (model 4000) EIS I am planning on using
>so I plan on eliminating the low voltage monitor module (AEC 9005 -
>101) as I believe this function is included in the EIS. Any comments?
The low voltage annunciation on your EIS is
a useful substitution for independent low
voltage warning.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: breaker specs |
At 12:35 AM 12/3/2008, you wrote:
>Bob, et al
>
>I'm trying to educate myself about circuit breakers (Klixon in this
>case). I can't find any tech info online, nor any sales info from
>Mouser, Digi-key, Electronic etc. Can you suggest a source?
>
>I'm beginning to think Klixon is not a manufacture's name but just a
>product name. Still, I should be able to find performance specs
>online though, no?
"Klixon" has been associated with Texas Instruments for
a very long time. I don't know if it originated with TI
or they acquired it. Klixon forte was a slightly dished
disk of homogenous material useful for push-button springs
and the bi-metal versions suited for use as current sensors
in breakers.
You can drink from the firehose of data on Sensata-Klixon
at:
http://www.sensata.com/products/controls/circuitbreakers.htm
>
>Relevance: Due to space and design goals, I am incorporating fuse
>blocks and some breakers (Klixon) into my panel (RV7A). However, I
>have just recently discovered another type of breaker that I'm sure
>you're aware of, namely the switch/breaker, see
>
>
><http://www.avionicsmall.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=189&products_id=8161>http://www.avionicsmall.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=189&products_id=8161
>
>This nifty puppy will save space by incorporating a switch and
>circuit breaker into one unit at comparable cost to a switch and
>klixon breaker. However, when reading the performance specs, (click
>on the data sheet tab
>here
><http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=655-W31-X2M1G-5>http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=655-W31-X2M1G-5
>) it looks to be very slow acting at the current flows that we are
>dealing with. I would think that we want an overload to be shut own
>within seconds not minutes. Even at a response time of 10 seconds,
>the amount of overload would have to be 150-250% of rated value ( I
>suppose dependant on ambient temperature). I don't think this is
>acceptable for an aircraft, do you?
>
>This is why I wonder what the Klixon's response times are. Maybe
>they are no better. I'm pretty sure that an ATO type fuse will be
>lightning fast at 150% overload, no? I look forward to you comments.
Don't loose any sleep over it. Studying the response times
of the hundreds of products will not yield satisfying
conclusions. ALL breakers and breaker-switches are suited
to the task of keeping the smoke inside the wires they
feed. The switch-breaker you've cited has a very close
cousin in service on the Beech Bonanza and Baron lines
to the tune of 80,000+ units over the past 25 years or
more.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Does the Alternator shut down if battery power |
is removed?
At 05:41 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote:
>
>Given an alternator and an LR3 controller, with the engine running,
>will the alternator shut down if the battery master is switched off?
Not if you simply shut off the battery. Few airplanes are
wired with separate battery and alternator switches. The vast
majority of alternators on aircraft are wired with some form
of interlocking between battery master and alternator controls
to prevent alternator operation without the battery.
See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Progressive-Xfr_Split-Rocker_Switches.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11M.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternators/Know_Your_Charging_System.pdf
>I'm guessing that the alternator will continue to function normally
>since it's still self-exciting the field line. Shutting down the
>alternator would require pulling the field breaker.
Not if you wire it per the recommendations in Appendix Z
cited above (which is consistent with legacy alternator
installations on most certified aircraft). In any case,
your alternator field current should be controllable by some
switch whether independent of the battery master (al la Bonanza/
Baron) or ganged with the battery switch.
>Is that correct?
>
>Thanks
>Bill Watson
>RV10 with a Z-14
If you're wired per Z-14 as published then your alternator
is controlled by the DC Power Master switch. Down is all power
OFF, mid position is BAT ON only, up position is BAT+ALT.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Help debugging an alternator noise problem |
Andy
I don't see a reply to you so I'll add a little incidental info.
I can confirm that the 20 amp nominal single phase (two output wires)
John Deere permanent magnet alternator should not add noticeable noise
to your system. I do not use a capacitor and my batteries are smaller
than yours. I use the John Deere regulator which works fine as long as
it is not disconnected from the battery while the engine is running. In
fact mine is hard wired to the battery because it will fail (max
charging and no regulation) if disconnected with the engine running. I
don't know if your battery switch could be an issue but it doesn't sound
likely. My Overvoltage relay is between the alternator and the
regulator. I do have a small filter on the strobe power supplies. In
general a large electrolytic capacitor will tend to destroy itself
visibly if wired backwards. Capacitors can certainly be tested if
someone has a tester. However if it holds a charge it is probably fine.
By that I mean if you see a spark when you connect it to a battery and
it retains voltage after being disconnected for a minute or more.
Generally it is recommended that a small resister (a few ohms) be put in
series with a large capacitor to slow the charging or discharging
(reduce wear and tear) when testing like this although often folks just
look for the spark to confirm current going in and then again back out
when the terminals are shorted. Reversing the polarity may make the
capacitor explode so keep positive terminal to positive battery
terminal. A large capacitor when charged can provide a momentary large
current so it is good to discharge them before handling them or
installing them.
I'm not familiar with your regulator so I'd be suspicious of it unless
you know others are using it with no problem. My radio is an icom but I
would not expect yours to be more sensitive to noise.
Ken
Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote:
> I submitted this before, but am now including much more information, per
> Bob's request.
>
> Problem - I am getting a lot of clearly alternator (or voltage regulator
> noise) on the receive side of my radio. There is no noise on only
> battery power, or with the alternator disconnect relay unpowered. The
> noise is very low at idle, and increases in both volume and frequency as
> RPM increases, At high RPM makes it very difficult to understand
> transmissions. Radio is a Terra 760D fed from the main bus. I have
> checked to be sure that the problem persists even with no other
> equipment powered up (not coming somehow from lights or avionics).
>
> System - The system is pretty similar to Z-17, except that I have two
> batteries (PC-680) connected through a marine selector switch
> (A-B-Both-Off) and no master relay.
>
> There is a secondary EFIS bus which can be powered through a DC-DC
> regulator, but the problem does not depend on whether this bus is
> powered up or not.
>
> In place of the SD-8, I have an 18 amp John Deere permanent magnet
> alternator feeding through a 4-wire motorcycle voltage regulator (Crane
> Fireball, installation doc here http://tinyurl.com/17a), connected to
> the main bus using the B&C relay/overvoltage protection kit as shown in
> the diagram, which includes a big filter capacitor.
>
> Bus voltage is fine with the alternator connected (about 14V) and the
> charging portion is working OK.
>
> Questions:
> [1] Should not the big capacitor be filtering out this noise?
> [2] Could the capacitor be bad? Can I test it?
> [3] What would happen if I wired the cap backwards?
> (I will check ASAP.)
> [4] Is there other or additional filtering I could put on the
> feed? If so, what?
> [5] Are there other things I could check/test?
>
> Thanks,
> Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
> N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Help debugging an alternator noise problem |
At 03:16 PM 12/2/2008, you wrote:
>I submitted this before, but am now including much more information,
>per Bob's request.
>
>Problem - I am getting a lot of clearly alternator (or voltage
>regulator noise) on the receive side of my radio. There is no noise
>on only battery power, or with the alternator disconnect relay
>unpowered. The noise is very low at idle, and increases in both
>volume and frequency as RPM increases, At high RPM makes it very
>difficult to understand transmissions. Radio is a Terra 760D fed
>from the main bus. I have checked to be sure that the problem
>persists even with no other equipment powered up (not coming somehow
>from lights or avionics).
>
>System - The system is pretty similar to Z-17, except that I have
>two batteries (PC-680) connected through a marine selector switch
>(A-B-Both-Off) and no master relay.
>
>There is a secondary EFIS bus which can be powered through a DC-DC
>regulator, but the problem does not depend on whether this bus is
>powered up or not.
>
>In place of the SD-8, I have an 18 amp John Deere permanent magnet
>alternator feeding through a 4-wire motorcycle voltage regulator
>(Crane Fireball, installation doc here
><http://tinyurl.com/17a>http://tinyurl.com/17a), connected to the
>main bus using the B&C relay/overvoltage protection kit as shown in
>the diagram, which includes a big filter capacitor.
>
>Bus voltage is fine with the alternator connected (about 14V) and
>the charging portion is working OK.
>
>Questions:
>[1] Should not the big capacitor be filtering out this noise?
Not necessarily
>[2] Could the capacitor be bad? Can I test it?
>[3] What would happen if I wired the cap backwards?
> (I will check ASAP.)
It makes smoke . . . or even loud noises!
>[4] Is there other or additional filtering I could put on the
> feed? If so, what?
>[5] Are there other things I could check/test?
Yes, you need to play the Noise Game . . . it's
sorta like Clue. You have a victim, a probable
source . . . now you need a propagation mode. This
process is described in the 'Connection chapter on
Noise.
You may have a ground loop that injects noise into
an audio system . . . this is a very common condition.
Operate the victim from a 12v lantern battery independent
of the aircraft bus to see if the noise goes away.
This tells you if the noise is coming in from the bus
or other pathway(s).
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Where to find closed-end lugs for Super-CCA cable |
At 01:24 PM 12/2/2008, you wrote:
>Where is the best place to buy lugs for Eric Jones' Super-CCA
>electric cable in #4 size? My partners wants a "closed end" type as
>suggested by Bob Nuckolls on one of his weekend seminars. It appears
>that Eric only sells the open end type. This would be a type which
>uses the "solder pellet" which you drop into the lug, then insert
>the wire and heat.
Hmmm . . . I may have mentioned the closed-end devices as
being an alternative . . . but I don't think I spoke to
them being preferred. In fact, they're more difficult to
install using the "copper wedge and solder" technique
described in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf
The open-end structure lets you (1) drive wedges and
(2) observe the results of your skill in applying heat
and solder to achieve the desired result. Closed-end
devices are soldered blind and difficult to wedge.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Dancing ammeter and alternator drop outs |
Bob,
Our club Arrow IV has recently experienced a spate of alternator and
related electrical system maintenance issues. The symptoms that the club
members complained about centered on alternator drop outs which could often,
if not always, be cured by turning the alternator off and then back on.
There may have been an outright alternator failure of some sort as well. I
haven't followed the maintenance in detail since I haven't, until today,
flown the plane in the last month.
The upshot of all the maintenance is that first the voltage regulator
and then the alternator were replaced. The symptom reported after voltage
regulator replacement but before alternator replacement was that the
alternator was dropping out every 10 minutes in the last half hour of a
cross country trip. I was the first to fly the plane after the alternator
replacement and I found the system to still be misbehaving.
In my flight immediately upon starting the engine and switching on the
alternator the alternator ammeter (a load meter, I think) showed 70 amps,
pretty steady, recharging the battery I presume. Then, in less than a minute
the ammeter began swinging from 30A to 70A 2 or 3 times a second. I've read
your dancing ammeter posts so I assumed this was not particularly
troublesome (except that these swings were larger than I had seen before).
Then, after my first turn around the pattern, I noticed that the alternator
had dropped off line. It came back after cycling the alternator switch,
however the ammeter dancing was now as large as 0A to 70A. This behavior
continued for a couple more turns around the pattern, with full stop
landings, as I watched what was going on. I had to reset the alternator
twice more over the span of 20 minutes.
So, the plane's electrical problems are not solved and I'm trying to
help the owner and his mechanic figure out what is really wrong. I dug some
of your posts about dancing ammeters out of the archive and I'm ready to
show them to the plane's owner. However I'd like to get your opinion as to
whether I'm on the right track. Can the aging wiring problem that causes
dancing ammeters also cause the alternator to frequently drop off line?
Regards,
Nick Gautier
Message 8
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Hello Listers,
A few questions for my RV-7, Z-11 system, E-Mag/P-Mag.
1. Can I run the Main Bus feed from the Alternator side of the ANL60 Current Limiter?
The wiring run would be slightly easier and there's a secondary reason...
2. If I can do #1, would that provide sufficient protection for the 8AWG feed line
to the Main Bus? That feed has no protection in Z-11 and it seems like it
should. I foresee little risk of that line shorting to ground, but the consequences
would be significant.
3. If I can't do #1, can I / should I use a 12AWG fusible link to protect the Main
Bus feed line?
4. My Battery Bus feed line will exceed 6". It's roughly the same run length as
the Main Bus feed, something like 24". Can I / should I protect it with a fusible
link? Same rationale as the Main Bus feed. It would be a 14AWG run (Battery
bus is source for the E-Bus Alt Feed) with an 18AWG fusible link.
5. This is more FYI and for comment, but I'm wiring my E-Mag and P-Mag each the
same way:
- E-Bus to 2A panel breaker to mag for power
- SPST switch and shielded P-lead for each mag
My thinking is that they should be wired identically and treated much the same
as mags. E-Bus 'cuz their important, the individual breakers will allow me to
power down the P-Mag to test it, and finally the shielded P-leads allow me to
switch to traditional mags if ever needed. It is far less complicated than many
schemes I've seen and uses cheaper switches (albeit two pricey panel breakers).
Any holes in my plan?
6. Finally, is there any problem with feeding those panel breakers through a fuse
on the E-Bus? My only other panel breaker, the Field, will be fed through a
fusible link from the Main Bus screw terminal.
Thanks in advance,
George Jenson
Tucson, AZ
--------
George Jenson -
Tucson, AZ - RV-7 Standard Build
Empennage Completed 1/06
Wings Completed 11/06
Fuselage in Progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217845#217845
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