---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/05/08: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:47 AM - Re: Use of Vans ES14684 60A Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 06:07 AM - Re: breaker specs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:15 AM - Re: Does the Alternator shut down if battery power is removed? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:15 AM - Re: Help debugging an alternator noise problem (Ken) 5. 08:03 AM - Re: Help debugging an alternator noise problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:32 AM - Re: Where to find closed-end lugs for Super-CCA cable (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 02:12 PM - Dancing ammeter and alternator drop outs (Gautier, Thomas N) 8. 05:15 PM - Z-11 Questions (grjtucson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:47 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Use of Vans ES14684 60A Alternator At 02:45 PM 12/2/2008, you wrote: >Sorry if this question has been dealt with before, but I would like >to know if use of a Vans ES 14684 60A alternator with internal >regulation would be suitable in a system designed around Bob's Z-11 >Generic Light Aircraft Electrical System. As this alternator is >internally regulated, is the generic "Ford" regulator still needed >or should it be eliminated? It's eliminated. > I am also considering purchase of the Overvoltage Module (OVM-14) > from B & C but see there is a caution about using OV protection > with this alternator on Vans site. The caution concerns a need to > contact the manufacturer of the OV device to ensure any special > wiring requirements are met. Would the Z-11 diagram show the > correct wiring for use of this device with this alternator? I was recently offered a tour of an alternator/ starter remanufacturing facility that produces about 22,000 units a day. They box product for a host of customers not the least of which is AC Delco and includes many of big-name chain stores. I learned that it's exceedingly difficult if not impossible for a "small" users of alternators to acquire a factory-fresh device . . . The folks who build brand new product want to schedule car-loads of units to a minimum number of deliveries. This is because transportation and handling is a MAJOR cost of the product. I'm working on a white-paper that will publish details of what I learned but the short answer now is that we don't know where Van's alternators come from. We do know that SOME parts were vulnerable to their own load dump transients in the past. I do know that the factory, QA and IR&D facilities I toured produces products intended to withstand a series of five, max-rpm, max-current, high-temperature load-dumps in a row without damage to its internals. I witnessed one such demonstration in their labs. 14684 is a "Lester Number" . . . an industry cataloging system that brings parts of like functionality into a specific application. While this part number MIGHT get you a device with all original parts from the likes of Nipon Denso or Bosch, it's not a guarantee and most likely, the part has been disassembled for some manner of refurbishment. If you want to buy 100 pcs minimum per month, you can put your hands on brand-new 14684 machines here: http://tinyurl.com/5sguzm Bottom line is that there are dozens of alternators from DOZENS OF SOURCES that are adaptable to your engine. By adaptable we mean that the alternator requires appropriate mounting configuration to bolt to your machine. Van offers a kit of tension arm and bracket to adapt a "14684" alternator to Lycoming engines at: http://tinyurl.com/5uz5n6 I'll call the reader's attention to the caveat on Van's page that reads as follows: Caution: Builders planning to utilize overvoltage protection with Van's internally regulated 60 amp alternator should consult with the manufacturer of the overvoltage device to insure that any special wiring requirements are met during installation. I've never enjoyed direct conversation with folks at Van's in spite of specific attempts to enter into constructive dialog. Their initial reaction to reported failures of alternators combined with b-lead disconnect contactors was not so measured as the statement above. As it turns out, not all alternators are potential victims to their own load-dump transients in spite of the fact that they have THE SAME part number. The short answer is that installing ANY internally regulated alternator with external ov protection described in: http://tinyurl.com/5n989y . . . is a perfectly rational thing to do. Just be wary of turning the alternator OFF under load at more than idle RPM until the final solution described is available. Alternatively, one may certainly run the alternator "barefoot" as many folks recommend. This discussion isn't about imperatives. It's about risk reduction. >I also have a Grand Rapids (model 4000) EIS I am planning on using >so I plan on eliminating the low voltage monitor module (AEC 9005 - >101) as I believe this function is included in the EIS. Any comments? The low voltage annunciation on your EIS is a useful substitution for independent low voltage warning. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:11 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: breaker specs At 12:35 AM 12/3/2008, you wrote: >Bob, et al > >I'm trying to educate myself about circuit breakers (Klixon in this >case). I can't find any tech info online, nor any sales info from >Mouser, Digi-key, Electronic etc. Can you suggest a source? > >I'm beginning to think Klixon is not a manufacture's name but just a >product name. Still, I should be able to find performance specs >online though, no? "Klixon" has been associated with Texas Instruments for a very long time. I don't know if it originated with TI or they acquired it. Klixon forte was a slightly dished disk of homogenous material useful for push-button springs and the bi-metal versions suited for use as current sensors in breakers. You can drink from the firehose of data on Sensata-Klixon at: http://www.sensata.com/products/controls/circuitbreakers.htm > >Relevance: Due to space and design goals, I am incorporating fuse >blocks and some breakers (Klixon) into my panel (RV7A). However, I >have just recently discovered another type of breaker that I'm sure >you're aware of, namely the switch/breaker, see > > >http://www.avionicsmall.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=189&products_id=8161 > >This nifty puppy will save space by incorporating a switch and >circuit breaker into one unit at comparable cost to a switch and >klixon breaker. However, when reading the performance specs, (click >on the data sheet tab >here >http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=655-W31-X2M1G-5 >) it looks to be very slow acting at the current flows that we are >dealing with. I would think that we want an overload to be shut own >within seconds not minutes. Even at a response time of 10 seconds, >the amount of overload would have to be 150-250% of rated value ( I >suppose dependant on ambient temperature). I don't think this is >acceptable for an aircraft, do you? > >This is why I wonder what the Klixon's response times are. Maybe >they are no better. I'm pretty sure that an ATO type fuse will be >lightning fast at 150% overload, no? I look forward to you comments. Don't loose any sleep over it. Studying the response times of the hundreds of products will not yield satisfying conclusions. ALL breakers and breaker-switches are suited to the task of keeping the smoke inside the wires they feed. The switch-breaker you've cited has a very close cousin in service on the Beech Bonanza and Baron lines to the tune of 80,000+ units over the past 25 years or more. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:54 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Does the Alternator shut down if battery power is removed? At 05:41 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: > >Given an alternator and an LR3 controller, with the engine running, >will the alternator shut down if the battery master is switched off? Not if you simply shut off the battery. Few airplanes are wired with separate battery and alternator switches. The vast majority of alternators on aircraft are wired with some form of interlocking between battery master and alternator controls to prevent alternator operation without the battery. See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Progressive-Xfr_Split-Rocker_Switches.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11M.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternators/Know_Your_Charging_System.pdf >I'm guessing that the alternator will continue to function normally >since it's still self-exciting the field line. Shutting down the >alternator would require pulling the field breaker. Not if you wire it per the recommendations in Appendix Z cited above (which is consistent with legacy alternator installations on most certified aircraft). In any case, your alternator field current should be controllable by some switch whether independent of the battery master (al la Bonanza/ Baron) or ganged with the battery switch. >Is that correct? > >Thanks >Bill Watson >RV10 with a Z-14 If you're wired per Z-14 as published then your alternator is controlled by the DC Power Master switch. Down is all power OFF, mid position is BAT ON only, up position is BAT+ALT. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:21 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Help debugging an alternator noise problem Andy I don't see a reply to you so I'll add a little incidental info. I can confirm that the 20 amp nominal single phase (two output wires) John Deere permanent magnet alternator should not add noticeable noise to your system. I do not use a capacitor and my batteries are smaller than yours. I use the John Deere regulator which works fine as long as it is not disconnected from the battery while the engine is running. In fact mine is hard wired to the battery because it will fail (max charging and no regulation) if disconnected with the engine running. I don't know if your battery switch could be an issue but it doesn't sound likely. My Overvoltage relay is between the alternator and the regulator. I do have a small filter on the strobe power supplies. In general a large electrolytic capacitor will tend to destroy itself visibly if wired backwards. Capacitors can certainly be tested if someone has a tester. However if it holds a charge it is probably fine. By that I mean if you see a spark when you connect it to a battery and it retains voltage after being disconnected for a minute or more. Generally it is recommended that a small resister (a few ohms) be put in series with a large capacitor to slow the charging or discharging (reduce wear and tear) when testing like this although often folks just look for the spark to confirm current going in and then again back out when the terminals are shorted. Reversing the polarity may make the capacitor explode so keep positive terminal to positive battery terminal. A large capacitor when charged can provide a momentary large current so it is good to discharge them before handling them or installing them. I'm not familiar with your regulator so I'd be suspicious of it unless you know others are using it with no problem. My radio is an icom but I would not expect yours to be more sensitive to noise. Ken Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote: > I submitted this before, but am now including much more information, per > Bob's request. > > Problem - I am getting a lot of clearly alternator (or voltage regulator > noise) on the receive side of my radio. There is no noise on only > battery power, or with the alternator disconnect relay unpowered. The > noise is very low at idle, and increases in both volume and frequency as > RPM increases, At high RPM makes it very difficult to understand > transmissions. Radio is a Terra 760D fed from the main bus. I have > checked to be sure that the problem persists even with no other > equipment powered up (not coming somehow from lights or avionics). > > System - The system is pretty similar to Z-17, except that I have two > batteries (PC-680) connected through a marine selector switch > (A-B-Both-Off) and no master relay. > > There is a secondary EFIS bus which can be powered through a DC-DC > regulator, but the problem does not depend on whether this bus is > powered up or not. > > In place of the SD-8, I have an 18 amp John Deere permanent magnet > alternator feeding through a 4-wire motorcycle voltage regulator (Crane > Fireball, installation doc here http://tinyurl.com/17a), connected to > the main bus using the B&C relay/overvoltage protection kit as shown in > the diagram, which includes a big filter capacitor. > > Bus voltage is fine with the alternator connected (about 14V) and the > charging portion is working OK. > > Questions: > [1] Should not the big capacitor be filtering out this noise? > [2] Could the capacitor be bad? Can I test it? > [3] What would happen if I wired the cap backwards? > (I will check ASAP.) > [4] Is there other or additional filtering I could put on the > feed? If so, what? > [5] Are there other things I could check/test? > > Thanks, > Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ > N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Help debugging an alternator noise problem At 03:16 PM 12/2/2008, you wrote: >I submitted this before, but am now including much more information, >per Bob's request. > >Problem - I am getting a lot of clearly alternator (or voltage >regulator noise) on the receive side of my radio. There is no noise >on only battery power, or with the alternator disconnect relay >unpowered. The noise is very low at idle, and increases in both >volume and frequency as RPM increases, At high RPM makes it very >difficult to understand transmissions. Radio is a Terra 760D fed >from the main bus. I have checked to be sure that the problem >persists even with no other equipment powered up (not coming somehow >from lights or avionics). > >System - The system is pretty similar to Z-17, except that I have >two batteries (PC-680) connected through a marine selector switch >(A-B-Both-Off) and no master relay. > >There is a secondary EFIS bus which can be powered through a DC-DC >regulator, but the problem does not depend on whether this bus is >powered up or not. > >In place of the SD-8, I have an 18 amp John Deere permanent magnet >alternator feeding through a 4-wire motorcycle voltage regulator >(Crane Fireball, installation doc here >http://tinyurl.com/17a), connected to the >main bus using the B&C relay/overvoltage protection kit as shown in >the diagram, which includes a big filter capacitor. > >Bus voltage is fine with the alternator connected (about 14V) and >the charging portion is working OK. > >Questions: >[1] Should not the big capacitor be filtering out this noise? Not necessarily >[2] Could the capacitor be bad? Can I test it? >[3] What would happen if I wired the cap backwards? > (I will check ASAP.) It makes smoke . . . or even loud noises! >[4] Is there other or additional filtering I could put on the > feed? If so, what? >[5] Are there other things I could check/test? Yes, you need to play the Noise Game . . . it's sorta like Clue. You have a victim, a probable source . . . now you need a propagation mode. This process is described in the 'Connection chapter on Noise. You may have a ground loop that injects noise into an audio system . . . this is a very common condition. Operate the victim from a 12v lantern battery independent of the aircraft bus to see if the noise goes away. This tells you if the noise is coming in from the bus or other pathway(s). Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Where to find closed-end lugs for Super-CCA cable At 01:24 PM 12/2/2008, you wrote: >Where is the best place to buy lugs for Eric Jones' Super-CCA >electric cable in #4 size? My partners wants a "closed end" type as >suggested by Bob Nuckolls on one of his weekend seminars. It appears >that Eric only sells the open end type. This would be a type which >uses the "solder pellet" which you drop into the lug, then insert >the wire and heat. Hmmm . . . I may have mentioned the closed-end devices as being an alternative . . . but I don't think I spoke to them being preferred. In fact, they're more difficult to install using the "copper wedge and solder" technique described in http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf The open-end structure lets you (1) drive wedges and (2) observe the results of your skill in applying heat and solder to achieve the desired result. Closed-end devices are soldered blind and difficult to wedge. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:25 PM PST US From: "Gautier, Thomas N" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dancing ammeter and alternator drop outs Bob, Our club Arrow IV has recently experienced a spate of alternator and related electrical system maintenance issues. The symptoms that the club members complained about centered on alternator drop outs which could often, if not always, be cured by turning the alternator off and then back on. There may have been an outright alternator failure of some sort as well. I haven't followed the maintenance in detail since I haven't, until today, flown the plane in the last month. The upshot of all the maintenance is that first the voltage regulator and then the alternator were replaced. The symptom reported after voltage regulator replacement but before alternator replacement was that the alternator was dropping out every 10 minutes in the last half hour of a cross country trip. I was the first to fly the plane after the alternator replacement and I found the system to still be misbehaving. In my flight immediately upon starting the engine and switching on the alternator the alternator ammeter (a load meter, I think) showed 70 amps, pretty steady, recharging the battery I presume. Then, in less than a minute the ammeter began swinging from 30A to 70A 2 or 3 times a second. I've read your dancing ammeter posts so I assumed this was not particularly troublesome (except that these swings were larger than I had seen before). Then, after my first turn around the pattern, I noticed that the alternator had dropped off line. It came back after cycling the alternator switch, however the ammeter dancing was now as large as 0A to 70A. This behavior continued for a couple more turns around the pattern, with full stop landings, as I watched what was going on. I had to reset the alternator twice more over the span of 20 minutes. So, the plane's electrical problems are not solved and I'm trying to help the owner and his mechanic figure out what is really wrong. I dug some of your posts about dancing ammeters out of the archive and I'm ready to show them to the plane's owner. However I'd like to get your opinion as to whether I'm on the right track. Can the aging wiring problem that causes dancing ammeters also cause the alternator to frequently drop off line? Regards, Nick Gautier ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:55 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-11 Questions From: "grjtucson" Hello Listers, A few questions for my RV-7, Z-11 system, E-Mag/P-Mag. 1. Can I run the Main Bus feed from the Alternator side of the ANL60 Current Limiter? The wiring run would be slightly easier and there's a secondary reason... 2. If I can do #1, would that provide sufficient protection for the 8AWG feed line to the Main Bus? That feed has no protection in Z-11 and it seems like it should. I foresee little risk of that line shorting to ground, but the consequences would be significant. 3. If I can't do #1, can I / should I use a 12AWG fusible link to protect the Main Bus feed line? 4. My Battery Bus feed line will exceed 6". It's roughly the same run length as the Main Bus feed, something like 24". Can I / should I protect it with a fusible link? Same rationale as the Main Bus feed. It would be a 14AWG run (Battery bus is source for the E-Bus Alt Feed) with an 18AWG fusible link. 5. This is more FYI and for comment, but I'm wiring my E-Mag and P-Mag each the same way: - E-Bus to 2A panel breaker to mag for power - SPST switch and shielded P-lead for each mag My thinking is that they should be wired identically and treated much the same as mags. E-Bus 'cuz their important, the individual breakers will allow me to power down the P-Mag to test it, and finally the shielded P-leads allow me to switch to traditional mags if ever needed. It is far less complicated than many schemes I've seen and uses cheaper switches (albeit two pricey panel breakers). Any holes in my plan? 6. Finally, is there any problem with feeding those panel breakers through a fuse on the E-Bus? My only other panel breaker, the Field, will be fed through a fusible link from the Main Bus screw terminal. Thanks in advance, George Jenson Tucson, AZ -------- George Jenson - Tucson, AZ - RV-7 Standard Build Empennage Completed 1/06 Wings Completed 11/06 Fuselage in Progress Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217845#217845 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.