Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:21 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Richard T. Schaefer)
2. 06:37 AM - =?UTF-8?Q?Re: Need for start-up protection?= =?UTF-8?Q?=3F? (jon@finleyweb.net)
3. 07:07 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? ()
4. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: Need for start-up protection? (Robert Borger)
5. 07:33 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
6. 08:02 AM - Re: Re: Need for start-up protection? (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty)
7. 08:34 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Ernest Christley)
8. 08:50 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Dennis Golden)
9. 09:33 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Richard Dudley)
10. 10:06 AM - More debugging of alternator whine problem (Dr. Andrew Elliott)
11. 10:46 AM - Trim Speed (philip smith)
12. 12:39 PM - Re: Trim Speed (Bill)
13. 02:20 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 02:33 PM - Re: More debugging of alternator whine problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 02:39 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 03:13 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
17. 03:27 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Yahoo Mail)
18. 04:42 PM - Re: Re: Food For Thought (Richard T. Schaefer)
19. 06:40 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (B Tomm)
20. 06:41 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (B Tomm)
21. 07:31 PM - portable, handheld (bob noffs)
22. 07:44 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 07:45 PM - Re: portable, handheld (elhershb@comcast.net)
24. 07:50 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Dale Rogers)
25. 08:29 PM - Re: portable, handheld (Joemotis@aol.com)
26. 11:47 PM - Break a P+B toggle circuit breaker (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Need for start-up protection? |
Spikes are not always the problem. This would stem from poor startup
regulation as the alternator comes on line.
Low voltage (during cranking) can cause some solid state devices that
normally operate in a switching mode to operate in a linear mode.
This can cause a device that normally does not need to dissipate heat to get
hot and potentially destroy itself.
A Transorb or TVS will not protect against these types of problems.
r.t.s.
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jon@finleyweb.net
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection?
Nice post Earnest, I totally agree. The responses to Sam's question have
been disappointing.
I am NOT an electrical wiz. That said, I think you are in need of a
Transorb or TVS (Transient voltage Suppressor) Sam (or maybe Eric's
Snap-Jacks??). The purpose of these little guys is to protect devices from
overvoltage conditions by clamping the voltage at some set point. They are
placed between the device and power supply. I'm not good one to recommend
part numbers but there are lots of possibilities at Digi-Key.
My goal in using these in my plane was not to allow me to leave the power
switch on all the time. Rather, I wanted to avoid frying some peice of
equipment when the day comes that I accidentally start/shutdown with
something on.
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: "Ernest Christley" <echristley@nc.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 4:14pm
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection?
Rodney Dunham wrote:
> Sam,
>
> The short 'n sweet answer to...
> "So, how do I make sure the ICOM is always off before engine start?"
> ...is. Reach over and twist the ON/OFF knob CCW until it clicks!
>
What if the on/off switch is a push button type?
> I do the "5 M's" mnoemonic on shutdown to help me remember to switch
> everything off, including the Master.
> ...Music (turn off all avionics in addition to radios if needed)
> ...Mags (quick mag check, just to let you know that the rpm's drop on
> one mag)
> ...Mixture (full lean for engine cut-off)
> ...Mags (both off)
> ...Master (off)
>
> No fancy electronic knowledge required. Just good airmanship.
And there's nothing wrong with good airmanship...however...
'Good airmanship' is so often code words for learning another lists of
mnemonics to overcome the shortfalls of a poor system design. Why
should I be forced to turn off so many systems manually before turning
off a master switch? I don't have to do that in an automobile. An
airplane engine is not that significantly different. Granted, the
certificated airplanes are stuck by Federal decree with their glorious
bobby-sock era glory, but the year is 2008, we're building and
maintaining our own systems, and we no longer have to suffer such
idiocy. The airplane should be built to accommodate the pilot, not the
other way around.
There are valid reasons to learn lists of mnemonics, mostly for
transitioning configurations from one flight regime to the next.
Shutdown shouldn't be one of them. All of my switches are in one
place. The shutdown procedure is to verify that all the switches are in
the down position. There is no point in anything more complicated.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Need for start-up protection?= =?UTF-8?Q?=3F? |
=0AOk, then what is the answer? I am one of the folks that just can't und
erstand why this is not a problem in cars but is in aircraft. Does a car ha
ve a relay that disconnects all electronics during engine start or are the
components better designed or ???=0A=0A =0A=0AJon=0A=0A-----Original Messag
e-----=0AFrom: "Richard T. Schaefer" <schaefer@rts-services.com>=0ASent: Tu
esday, December 9, 2008 9:18am=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASubj
ect: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection?=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0ASpikes are not always the problem. This would stem from poor start
up regulation as the alternator comes on line.=0A=0ALow voltage (during cra
nking) can cause some solid state devices that normally operate in a switch
ing mode to operate in a linear mode.=0A=0AThis can cause a device that nor
mally does not need to dissipate heat to get hot and potentially destroy it
self.=0A=0A =0A=0AA Transorb or TVS will not protect against these types of
problems.=0A=0A =0A=0Ar.t.s.=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: owner-aer
oelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of jon@finleyweb.net=0ASent: Monday, December 08,
2008 4:32 PM=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: AeroElect
ric-List: Need for start-up protection?=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0ANice post Earnest
, I totally agree. The responses to Sam's question have been disappointing
. =0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0AI am NOT an electrical wiz. That said, I think
you are in need of a Transorb or TVS (Transient voltage Suppressor) Sam (or
maybe Eric's Snap-Jacks??). The purpose of these little guys is to protec
t devices from overvoltage conditions by clamping the voltage at some set p
oint. They are placed between the device and power supply. I'm not good o
ne to recommend part numbers but there are lots of possibilities at Digi-Ke
y.=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0AMy goal in using these in my plane was not to al
low me to leave the power switch on all the time. Rather, I wanted to avoi
d frying some peice of equipment when the day comes that I accidentally sta
rt/shutdown with something on.=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0AJon=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: "Ernest Christley" <echristley@nc.rr.
com>=0ASent: Monday, December 8, 2008 4:14pm=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matron
ics.com=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection?=0A
unham wrote:=0A> Sam,=0A>=0A> The short 'n sweet answer to...=0A> "So, how
do I make sure the ICOM is always off before engine start?"=0A> ...is. Reac
h over and twist the ON/OFF knob CCW until it clicks!=0A>=0AWhat if the on/
off switch is a push button type?=0A> I do the "5 M's" mnoemonic on shutdow
n to help me remember to switch =0A> everything off, including the Master.
=0A> ...Music (turn off all avionics in addition to radios if needed)=0A> .
..Mags (quick mag check, just to let you know that the rpm's drop on =0A> o
ne mag)=0A> ...Mixture (full lean for engine cut-off)=0A> ...Mags (both off
)=0A> ...Master (off)=0A>=0A> No fancy electronic knowledge required. Just
good airmanship.=0AAnd there's nothing wrong with good airmanship...however
...=0A=0A'Good airmanship' is so often code words for learning another list
s of =0Amnemonics to overcome the shortfalls of a poor system design. Why
=0Ashould I be forced to turn off so many systems manually before turning
=0Aoff a master switch? I don't have to do that in an automobile. An =0Aair
plane engine is not that significantly different. Granted, the =0Acertifica
ted airplanes are stuck by Federal decree with their glorious =0Abobby-sock
era glory, but the year is 2008, we're building and =0Amaintaining our own
systems, and we no longer have to suffer such =0Aidiocy. The airplane shou
ld be built to accommodate the pilot, not the =0Aother way around.=0A=0AThe
re are valid reasons to learn lists of mnemonics, mostly for =0Atransitioni
ng configurations from one flight regime to the next. =0AShutdown shouldn't
be one of them. All of my switches are in one =0Aplace. The shutdown proce
dure is to verify that all the switches are in =0Athe down position. There
is no point in anything more complicated.=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Aht
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List=0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.
ribution Gifts! Incentive Free Terrific s> [http://www.matronics.com/contri
ww.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List] http://www.matronics.com/Navi
=0A
Message 3
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| Subject: | Need for start-up protection? |
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Need for start-up protection? |
Gents,
FWIW:
I don't switch the Avionics Master on till after the engine is started and switch
it off before I shut the engine down. This procedure was drubbed into me
back in the 60's when I was a student pilot and it has stuck with me since. It
is also in the check lists of the two aircraft I fly most frequently. This
procedure seems to preclude any issues of bus voltage drop or spikes affecting
the expensive electrical goodies.
This morning, I observed what occurred when I started my 2007 Ford Ranger Pickup
(manual & small V-6). When the starter is engaged, the other electrical stuff
drops off line till the starter is disengaged. So it appears that in the case
of my little pickup, there is some mechanism to disconnect the electronics
(in my case, the AM/FM radio/CD player) when the engine is started.
Just my two cents...
Check six,
Bob Borger
On Tuesday, December 09, 2008, at 08:37AM, <jon@finleyweb.net> wrote:
>
>Ok, then what is the answer? I am one of the folks that just can't understand
why this is not a problem in cars but is in aircraft. Does a car have a relay
that disconnects all electronics during engine start or are the components better
designed or ???
>
>
>
>Jon
Message 5
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| Subject: | Need for start-up protection? |
Ok, then what is the answer? I am one of the folks that just can't
understand why this is not a problem in cars but is in aircraft. Does a
car
have a relay that disconnects all electronics during engine start or are
the
components better designed or ???
Jon
Most of us don't even notice that when we turn the ignition switch, in
our
automobile, to the momentary start position, the radio and most
accessories
are turned off until the switch is released to run. Do you suppose
there is
a reason for this??
Roger
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Need for start-up protection? |
Robert, A key statement in your post is "buss voltage drop or spikes
affecting the expensive electrical goodies." I agree with your post
totally. Most of us building understand we do not want to damage our
expensive electrical goodies, we only want to purchase them once!
Consequently, we should follow our check list. Just my two cents.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Borger" <rlborger@mac.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection?
>
> Gents,
>
> FWIW:
>
> I don't switch the Avionics Master on till after the engine is started and
> switch it off before I shut the engine down. This procedure was drubbed
> into me back in the 60's when I was a student pilot and it has stuck with
> me since. It is also in the check lists of the two aircraft I fly most
> frequently. This procedure seems to preclude any issues of bus voltage
> drop or spikes affecting the expensive electrical goodies.
>
> This morning, I observed what occurred when I started my 2007 Ford Ranger
> Pickup (manual & small V-6). When the starter is engaged, the other
> electrical stuff drops off line till the starter is disengaged. So it
> appears that in the case of my little pickup, there is some mechanism to
> disconnect the electronics (in my case, the AM/FM radio/CD player) when
> the engine is started.
>
> Just my two cents...
>
> Check six,
> Bob Borger
>
> On Tuesday, December 09, 2008, at 08:37AM, <jon@finleyweb.net> wrote:
>>
>>Ok, then what is the answer? I am one of the folks that just can't
>>understand why this is not a problem in cars but is in aircraft. Does a
>>car have a relay that disconnects all electronics during engine start or
>>are the components better designed or ???
>>
>>
>>
>>Jon
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 9:59 AM
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Need for start-up protection? |
Robert Borger wrote:
>
> Gents,
>
> FWIW:
>
> I don't switch the Avionics Master on till after the engine is started and switch
it off before I shut the engine down. This procedure was drubbed into me
back in the 60's when I was a student pilot and it has stuck with me since.
It is also in the check lists of the two aircraft I fly most frequently. This
procedure seems to preclude any issues of bus voltage drop or spikes affecting
the expensive electrical goodies.
>
Great training, and you are to be commended for your good airmanship.
That's not the issue, though. The issue is whether the good training
serves any purpose or if it is just an extra hazing point.
The spikes have never been shown to exist. Short of a stuck bendix gear
turning the starter into a generator, I've not heard of any theory that
explains how a spike COULD exist.
If the low voltage does damage to the radio during the few seconds that
you are cranking, what is it going to do the day your alternator drops
offline and you have a low voltage for many minutes. Will your radio
burn up during the situation when you need it most? If this was a
common problem with radios when pilots encountered electrical problems,
wouldn't we have heard about it? Mostly what I've heard is more along
the lines of pilots talking to center to get help until their battery
runs out completely.
And how about working on your avionics on the ground. If your
troubleshooting and your battery starts to run down, do you run the risk
of burning up your radio?
> This morning, I observed what occurred when I started my 2007 Ford Ranger Pickup
(manual & small V-6). When the starter is engaged, the other electrical stuff
drops off line till the starter is disengaged. So it appears that in the
case of my little pickup, there is some mechanism to disconnect the electronics
(in my case, the AM/FM radio/CD player) when the engine is started.
>
Could it be so that all of the batteries power can be used to crank the
engine? This would also be a valid reason to turn off everything in an
airplane before start, but is totally unrelated to protecting
electronics from some ghostly danger that hasn't been shown to exist and
can't exist if our theories of DC electronics hold water.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Need for start-up protection? |
Ernest Christley wrote:
> Could it be so that all of the batteries power can be used to crank the
> engine? This would also be a valid reason to turn off everything in an
> airplane before start, but is totally unrelated to protecting
> electronics from some ghostly danger that hasn't been shown to exist and
> can't exist if our theories of DC electronics hold water.
Yes, because that big old air conditioner is also running of the same
accessory circuit. You don't want those kinds of loads on the engine
while trying to start it.
Dennis
--
Dennis Golden
Golden Consulting Services, Inc.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Need for start-up protection? |
It is amazing how deeply embedded the myth is. I have heard it from many
flight instructors and read many posts promoting it on this list. Even after
the technology has progressed and the specifications require tolerance, the
myth persists. I am inclined to believe Bob Nuckolls assertions based on a
long history in the industry and his many attempts to find the illusive
"killer spike". It is too bad to have to include unnecessary and redundant
steps in your procedures that continue to feed that myth. And even add a
single point potential failure in the form of an "avionics master". The myth
will never go away! Also watch out for black cats, ladders and broken
mirrors. A little salt over the shoulder before each flight might help.
Regards to all,
Richard Dudley
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Christley" <echristley@nc.rr.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection?
> <echristley@nc.rr.com>
>
> Robert Borger wrote:
>>
>> Gents,
>>
>> FWIW:
>>
>> I don't switch the Avionics Master on till after the engine is started
>> and switch it off before I shut the engine down. This procedure was
>> drubbed into me back in the 60's when I was a student pilot and it has
>> stuck with me since. It is also in the check lists of the two aircraft I
>> fly most frequently. This procedure seems to preclude any issues of bus
>> voltage drop or spikes affecting the expensive electrical goodies.
>>
> Great training, and you are to be commended for your good airmanship.
> That's not the issue, though. The issue is whether the good training
> serves any purpose or if it is just an extra hazing point.
>
> The spikes have never been shown to exist. Short of a stuck bendix gear
> turning the starter into a generator, I've not heard of any theory that
> explains how a spike COULD exist.
>
> If the low voltage does damage to the radio during the few seconds that
> you are cranking, what is it going to do the day your alternator drops
> offline and you have a low voltage for many minutes. Will your radio burn
> up during the situation when you need it most? If this was a common
> problem with radios when pilots encountered electrical problems, wouldn't
> we have heard about it? Mostly what I've heard is more along the lines of
> pilots talking to center to get help until their battery runs out
> completely.
> And how about working on your avionics on the ground. If your
> troubleshooting and your battery starts to run down, do you run the risk
> of burning up your radio?
>
>> This morning, I observed what occurred when I started my 2007 Ford Ranger
>> Pickup (manual & small V-6). When the starter is engaged, the other
>> electrical stuff drops off line till the starter is disengaged. So it
>> appears that in the case of my little pickup, there is some mechanism to
>> disconnect the electronics (in my case, the AM/FM radio/CD player) when
>> the engine is started.
>>
> Could it be so that all of the batteries power can be used to crank the
> engine? This would also be a valid reason to turn off everything in an
> airplane before start, but is totally unrelated to protecting electronics
> from some ghostly danger that hasn't been shown to exist and can't exist
> if our theories of DC electronics hold water.
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | More debugging of alternator whine problem |
I have continued the testing of the electrical system on my 601XL in
attempts to reduce or eliminate the alternator whine. No luck yet.
Here is what I have done so far:
[1] Ran radio off an isolated battery. No noise.
[2] Disconnected shield ground for headset wires. Noise persists.
[3] Disconnected power for headsets which runs along side the audio
wires. (Thought this was a good candidate!) Noise persists.
Additional notes:
[4] Whine increases significantly in volume when adding power. Implies
it is power related, not ground loop, yes?
[5] Noted that some Z-diagrams for permanent magnet setups show
alternator control relay between alternator and regulator, and some show
this between regulator and bus. Mine is the latter. Any reason to
suspect this?
[6] Noted that for installation diagram of motorcycle voltage regulator,
they show it connected directly to the battery. In my plane, the
voltage regulator feeds the primary buss separately from the batteries.
That is, there are two power feeds to the buss. Any chance that moving
the connection from the regulator directly to the battery and removing
the "extra" buss feed would have any effect?
Still hoping, and with a filter on order,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair
Message 11
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Here's one for you electrical types. The elevator trim servo in my CH 701
( read MAC ) runs really fast. When checking out the wiring I used a common
9v battery to confirm the wiring and it ran substantially slower - what
resistor - gizmo do I put in series with the 12v to reduce the voltage to
about 9v and slow things down. What would the circuit look like in a
schematic?
Thanks Phil
Message 12
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Phil Ray Allen makes a speed controller just for that. kina pricy at
app. $45.00 I think it is fully adjustable over a broad range. Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: philip smith
To: Aeroelectric-List@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:41 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim Speed
Here's one for you electrical types. The elevator trim servo in my CH
701
( read MAC ) runs really fast. When checking out the wiring I used a
common
9v battery to confirm the wiring and it ran substantially slower -
what
resistor - gizmo do I put in series with the 12v to reduce the voltage
to
about 9v and slow things down. What would the circuit look like in a
schematic?
Thanks Phil
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
10/14/2008 2:02 AM
Message 13
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| Subject: | Need for start-up protection? |
At 09:29 AM 12/9/2008, you wrote:
>
>Ok, then what is the answer? I am one of the folks that just can't
>understand why this is not a problem in cars but is in aircraft.
>Does a car have a relay that disconnects all electronics during
>engine start or are the components better designed or ???
It's not a "problem" in cars. That shutdown of the
accessories in automobiles is for load shedding during
cranking that maximizes available energy from the battery
for starting. This is especially important when the
battery is nearing failure from age or abuse.
>
>
>Jon
>
>
>Most of us don't even notice that when we turn the ignition switch,
>in our automobile, to the momentary start position, the radio and
>most accessories are turned off until the switch is released to
>run. Do you suppose there is a reason for this??
The most complex components in your car are used to
orchestrate fuel and ignition control. Obviously,
these cannot be turned off during cranking . . .
the car would never start!
The path to Nirvana is found by simply designing
accessories to dance to the music described in
DO-160 and similar documents for other industries.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/DO-160.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/avmaster.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection/Load_Dump_A.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection/DC_Power_System_Dynamics_C.pdf
My points are (1) it's stone simple to design products
that live happily with anything the ship's bus can
throw at it and (2) it's been done by ALL suppliers
to TC aircraft for 35+ years and most suppliers
to OBAM aircraft (including the 'Connection) for
20+ years. Finally, (3) in spite of many queries to folks
who worked in TC aircraft community (like Narco, King,
Terra, Lear, Cessna, Beech, Wilcox, etc), not one
individual has come forward to identify the source,
character and total energy contained in the most feared
"spike". It's one of those deeply held beliefs that
endures to this day: "I know spikes exist because
folks have worshiped at the altar of AV master switches
for decades . . . can that many true believers be
wrong?"
Nobody would happier to be proven in error about this
than I. Once the source is identified, simple repeatable
experiments will confirm its existence and magnitude.
I'd be pleased to write an article about it . . . and
cite co-authorship to the individual who discovers
(a) what does it, (b) how is it shaped, and (c)how much energy
does it contain?
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: More debugging of alternator whine problem |
At 12:04 PM 12/9/2008, you wrote:
>I have continued the testing of the electrical system on my 601XL in
>attempts to reduce or eliminate the alternator whine. No luck
>yet. Here is what I have done so far:
>
>[1] Ran radio off an isolated battery. No noise.
Okay, this suggests that the noise is coming in through
the power line. A filter is called for. What kind of radio
are we talking about? How much current does it draw in
receive and transmit?
>
>[2] Disconnected shield ground for headset wires. Noise persists.
>
>[3] Disconnected power for headsets which runs along side the audio
>wires. (Thought this was a good candidate!) Noise persists.
>
>Additional notes:
>
>[4] Whine increases significantly in volume when adding
>power. Implies it is power related, not ground loop, yes?
Not necessarily but when you did the isolated battery
test, that eliminated all other root causes.
>
>[5] Noted that some Z-diagrams for permanent magnet setups show
>alternator control relay between alternator and regulator, and some
>show this between regulator and bus. Mine is the latter. Any
>reason to suspect this?
No
>
>[6] Noted that for installation diagram of motorcycle voltage
>regulator, they show it connected directly to the battery. In my
>plane, the voltage regulator feeds the primary buss separately from
>the batteries. That is, there are two power feeds to the buss. Any
>chance that moving the connection from the regulator directly to the
>battery and removing the "extra" buss feed would have any effect?
Try it.
If you have a test filter identified, you're on
the right track. I have another filter that MIGHT
be suited to your task if you'd like to give it
a try it would be interesting to know . . .
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Need for start-up protection? |
At 11:31 AM 12/9/2008, you wrote:
><rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>
>
> It is too bad to have to include unnecessary and redundant steps
> in your procedures that continue to feed that myth. And even add a
> single point potential failure in the form of an "avionics master".
> The myth will never go away! Also watch out for black cats, ladders
> and broken mirrors. A little salt over the shoulder before each
> flight might help.
Our customer base tends to help perpetuate the myth too.
I had this discussion with numerous folks at Beech/RAC over
a period of 20 years. All agreed that the AV Master could
be dispensed with. Marketing objected stating that it was
too much a part of the operating procedure and they didn't
want to introduce new features that high time pilots might
find troubling. It was decided that genuflecting at the
altar of AV master switches would continue although that deity
seems to have vacated the temple many years ago.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 16
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| Subject: | Need for start-up protection? |
As for me..Having my entire avionics stack that I risk my life on in IMC to
one master switch with one fuse is not smart.
For me I have 4 switches to turn off before start/shutdown..Its just not a
big deal to turn them off..and if i forget then its probably not an issue a
nyway.
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:19 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection?
At 09:29 AM 12/9/2008, you wrote:
Ok, then what is the answer? I am one of the folks that just can't unders
tand why this is not a problem in cars but is in aircraft. Does a car have
a relay that disconnects all electronics during engine start or are the com
ponents better designed or ???
It's not a "problem" in cars. That shutdown of the
accessories in automobiles is for load shedding during
cranking that maximizes available energy from the battery
for starting. This is especially important when the
battery is nearing failure from age or abuse.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Need for start-up protection? |
I started my flying with the military and they did not have a master
avionics switch, so when I started flying civilian aircraft with the master
avionics switch I thought this is cool you do not have to turn on each radio
individually you do it with just one switch. I thought it was just for
convenience. My aircraft will have a master avionics switch.
Lynn A. Riggs
http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection?
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 11:31 AM 12/9/2008, you wrote:
><rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>
>
> It is too bad to have to include unnecessary and redundant steps
> in your procedures that continue to feed that myth. And even add a
> single point potential failure in the form of an "avionics master".
> The myth will never go away! Also watch out for black cats, ladders
> and broken mirrors. A little salt over the shoulder before each
> flight might help.
Our customer base tends to help perpetuate the myth too.
I had this discussion with numerous folks at Beech/RAC over
a period of 20 years. All agreed that the AV Master could
be dispensed with. Marketing objected stating that it was
too much a part of the operating procedure and they didn't
want to introduce new features that high time pilots might
find troubling. It was decided that genuflecting at the
altar of AV master switches would continue although that deity
seems to have vacated the temple many years ago.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Food For Thought |
The Cessna 400 has a "High Pump Enable" that is on during takeoff and climbs
to 10,000'. Off otherwise.
Actually they are on "Low On" over 10,000' for vapor suppression.
During the "Enable" a low fuel pressure will cause the external fuel pump to
run in "High" mode. This
Is latched until the "High Pump Enable" is set to off.
You must be able to disable a latched fuel pump. Some continental engines do
not like high fuel pressures when the
Throttle is not wide open. They can flood or die from being to rich. This is
typically from a poor setup.
The problem is that there are lots of these engines that have poor setups!
You might want to check to see if you can run your engine at idle power with
the fuel pump on.
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:23 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Food For Thought
At 02:38 PM 12/8/2008, you wrote:
This looked like a good idea to consider for the Z-diagram library, or at
least kick around here...
-Bill B
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Valentine Kozak <hangar_p1@yahoo.com>
Subject: [OhioValleyRVators] Food For Thought
I heard of a recent incident where an RV made an off airport landing
due to a failure of an engine driven fuel pump. Maybe someone was
just "joking" around but consider the following.
If the boost pump was wired so that whenever the fuel pressure
dropped below a preset value (around 15-20 psi for fuel injected
engines) the pump would run without intervention of the pilot.
<snip>
Just an idea to make things a little easier on the pilot.
Val Kozak
What you've hypothesized has been done. Other airplanes
I've flow call for the boost pump to be ON for takeoff
and approach to landing. The times I've allowed a tank
to run dry en route, the boost pump switch was turned on
before the tank was switched.
If this guy lost power and had enough altitude to
effect a choice of landings, he certainly had enough
time to get a fuel pump turned on. This is a case where
adherence to abnormal ops check lists is a pretty
inexpensive alternative to power-off, off-field
landings.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 19
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| Subject: | Need for start-up protection? |
Bob,
I too have never understood the fear of a voltage "spike" during engine
start BUT, I always assumed that while the average pilot may not know
what's going on here electrically, he may have reason to be concerned just
the same. I always thought one could assume that during engine cranking,
the buss voltage would sag. This sagging would "under power" the
electronics currently turned on, and it would be this extreme low voltage
event that would cause damage to sensitive things. I call it a "brown out"
and many electronics don't like it. They malfunction in many ways. Sort of
like not knowing whether they're supposed to be off, or on, or...off, no
on etc.
In your experience, could this voltage sag for several seconds cause trouble
for some electronics (certified or not) in aircraft?
Bevan
RV7A wiring
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection?
--> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 11:31 AM 12/9/2008, you wrote:
><rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>
>
> It is too bad to have to include unnecessary and redundant steps in
> your procedures that continue to feed that myth. And even add a single
> point potential failure in the form of an "avionics master".
> The myth will never go away! Also watch out for black cats, ladders
> and broken mirrors. A little salt over the shoulder before each flight
> might help.
Our customer base tends to help perpetuate the myth too.
I had this discussion with numerous folks at Beech/RAC over
a period of 20 years. All agreed that the AV Master could
be dispensed with. Marketing objected stating that it was
too much a part of the operating procedure and they didn't
want to introduce new features that high time pilots might
find troubling. It was decided that genuflecting at the
altar of AV master switches would continue although that deity
seems to have vacated the temple many years ago.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 20
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| Subject: | Need for start-up protection? |
I do think it MAY be for protection, secondly for convenience. However, I
will have a backup switch in the form of "EBUSS" switch for redundancy.
Bevan
RV7A wiring based on Z13/8
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yahoo
Mail
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 3:19 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection?
--> <riggs_la@yahoo.com>
I started my flying with the military and they did not have a master
avionics switch, so when I started flying civilian aircraft with the master
avionics switch I thought this is cool you do not have to turn on each radio
individually you do it with just one switch. I thought it was just for
convenience. My aircraft will have a master avionics switch.
Lynn A. Riggs
http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection?
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 11:31 AM 12/9/2008, you wrote:
><rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>
>
> It is too bad to have to include unnecessary and redundant steps in
> your procedures that continue to feed that myth. And even add a single
> point potential failure in the form of an "avionics master".
> The myth will never go away! Also watch out for black cats, ladders
> and broken mirrors. A little salt over the shoulder before each flight
> might help.
Our customer base tends to help perpetuate the myth too.
I had this discussion with numerous folks at Beech/RAC over
a period of 20 years. All agreed that the AV Master could
be dispensed with. Marketing objected stating that it was
too much a part of the operating procedure and they didn't
want to introduce new features that high time pilots might
find troubling. It was decided that genuflecting at the
altar of AV master switches would continue although that deity
seems to have vacated the temple many years ago.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 21
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| Subject: | portable, handheld |
hi all, there is a portable , handheld device[ like an ammeter] that
will allow you to follow a wire thru a bundle of wires by attaching one
end to the wire inside the conductor. then the device will pick out the
wire in a bundle. what is this thing called, please?
bob noffs
Message 22
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| Subject: | Need for start-up protection? |
At 08:37 PM 12/9/2008, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>I too have never understood the fear of a voltage "spike" during engine
>start BUT, I always assumed that while the average pilot may not know
>what's going on here electrically, he may have reason to be concerned just
>the same.
We TEACH people to be concerned. It's a primal force that
sells a LOT of products! Just watch TV for an hour and count
the commercials designed to instill fear of: getting old,
hardening of the arteries, pressure in the plumbing too high,
pressure in other plumbing too low, skin cancer, hydro-planing,
home invasion, less than snow white clothes . . . you name it.
In this case, we (at Cessna in 1968) didn't understand transistors
and second-breakdown. It was assumed that "spikes" from the starters
was killing our new hybrid vacuum tube/transistor radios.
In fact, it was brown-out, not spikes that was killing the
rather fragile, germanium power transistors in power supplies
(the audio systems were okay).
The Avionics Master was born there with siblings at Piper,
Beech, et. als. 40 years later, we've learned to make products
live with the ship's power as presented . . . but we neglected to
un-learn a deeply held belief that has now morphed into an almost
primal fear.
> I always thought one could assume that during engine cranking,
>the buss voltage would sag. This sagging would "under power" the
>electronics currently turned on, and it would be this extreme low voltage
>event that would cause damage to sensitive things. I call it a "brown out"
>and many electronics don't like it. They malfunction in many ways. Sort of
>like not knowing whether they're supposed to be off, or on, or...off, no
>on etc.
>
>In your experience, could this voltage sag for several seconds cause trouble
>for some electronics (certified or not) in aircraft?
Absolutely! One of the DO160 recommendations is that
a product EXPECT brownout during starter inrush time.
Here's what my last van did in the summer time, it's
worse in winter:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/95_GMC_Safari_1.gif
Here's Dr. Dee's little red roller skate . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/99_Saturn_SL1.jpg
Here's a B400A Beechjet . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/turbine_start_a.jpg
All of these vehicles have electronics that in some
cases is expected to perform during the brown-out for the
purpose of getting an engine started. Other systems are
allowed to complain but should recover gracefully after
the brownout event passes. Graceful recovery is something
that a number of OBAM aircraft equipment suppliers choose
to forego.
Here's an excerpt from DO160 speaking to a suite of
power interruption/brown-out tests for digital
equipment qualified to various classifications.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Misc_PDF/DO-160_Section_16_Excerpt_1.pdf
The idea is that whoever has some notion of supplying
equipment to virtually any alternator/battery DC
system aboard vehicles has no excuse for not considering
the demonstrable gremlins that need to be tolerated
if not dispatched.
All of my processor based stuff resets within milliseconds
of having normal power restored. I'll be helping some folks
with a suite of engine controls early next year. THIS system
will have to operate through any transient event that does
not drop below 6 volts . . . and recover gracefully for
all events that drop lower. Not a big deal.
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: portable, handheld |
That would be a tick tracer.
Ed Hershberger
40430
Fuse
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net>
hi all, there is a portable , handheld device[ like an ammeter] that will allow
you to follow a wire thru a bundle of wires by attaching one end to the wire
inside the conductor. then the device will pick out the wire in a bundle. what
is this thing called, please?
bob noffs
<html><body>
<DIV>That would be a <U>tick tracer</U>.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ed Hershberger</DIV>
<DIV>40430</DIV>
<DIV>Fuse</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "bob noffs"
<icubob@newnorth.net> <BR>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.5659" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>hi all, there is a portable , handheld device[ like
an ammeter] that will allow you to follow a wire thru a bundle of wires by attaching
one end to the wire inside the conductor. then the device will pick out
the wire in a bundle. what is this thing called, please?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
bob noffs</FONT></DIV><PRE><B><FONT face="courier
new,courier" size=2 color000000?>
</B></FONT></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Need for start-up protection? |
jon@finleyweb.net wrote:
> Ok, then what is the answer? I am one of the folks that just can't
> understand why this is not a problem in cars but is in aircraft. Does
> a car have a relay that disconnects all electronics during engine
> start or are the components better designed or ???
>
Nothing that complicated. An automotive ignition switch is a multi-pole
device. In the "run" position, it connects B+ to two terminals:
"ignition" and "accessory". When it is turned to the momentary "start"
position, it disconnects B+ from the "accessory" pole. Usually,
everything that isn't essential to running the engine is connected to
"accessory"; hence, the radio (and, often, the
cigarette_lighter/accessory_power socket) drop out, until one allows the
switch to spring back to the "run" position. Thus, no need for a check list.
HTH,
Dale R.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: portable, handheld |
A tick tracer is used to detect voltage by induction. I believe that what he
is looking for is a Toner. A toner is a 9 volt powered signal generator with
2 leads to clip to the conductor and a ground/ The other half is an inductive
amplifier that picks up the signal usually a DeeDO "tone" Quite useful on
telephone back boards and any place else you are trying to pick a conductor out
of a rat's nest.
Joe Motis
Do no Archive
In a message dated 12/9/2008 7:46:33 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
elhershb@comcast.net writes:
That would be a tick tracer.
Ed Hershberger
40430
Fuse
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net>
hi all, there is a portable , handheld device[ like an ammeter] that will
allow you to follow a wire thru a bundle of wires by attaching one end to the
wire inside the conductor. then the device will pick out the wire in a bundle.
what is this thing called, please?
bob noffs
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
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favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Break a P+B toggle circuit breaker |
Borrowed a new P+B toggle circuit breaker form local IA to help with
design of electrical stuff that is going in and behind passenger headrest
of our Europa XS monowheel.
I wanted to screw on a ring terminals to get better idea of space
requirements.
Sounds easy enough. Grabbed my favorite #2 screwdriver and removed first
screw, the second one was unbelievably tight. I got it loose, but put a
crack in the plastic housing because the torque required to loosen the
screw distorted the lug. What an idiot, even though the factory should
have not tightened down the screw so tight, I should have just held the
lug with a pair of pliers to prevent any stress from being transmitted to
housing, instead of holding the housing and loosening the screw.
OK $25 mistake, won't let that happen again. Figured would let others in
on my mistake so it happens not to you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since I am now the proud owner of a cracked P+B toggle breaker, even
though a little JB Weld could fix it, I decided to dissect. I never liked
the high factor of wigulation (feel) the toggle has on these units so
figured I needed a look. My business is copiers, and several times a year
I end up taking apart switches and relays to do field repair to get
machines going till I can obtain a new one. I am pretty aware of what
fails in electrical parts such as this.
WOW!!! If you ever wondered why a P+B non pull able breaker is around 5
bucks, and why a P+B toggle breaker is around $25, take a look inside.
There are close to 4 dozen parts on the toggle breaker!
>From talking to people who have experience with these toggle breakers long
term, they acknowledge good reliability, but man are there a lot of things
in there that can fail. One thing I am pretty confident assuming, once
breaker is closed I think it will maintain a pretty reliable connection.
Trying to close contacts is a different story. It is a mechanical
nightmare that highly stresses many components. There are things that are
greased, and when it becomes well used and grease goes away from the
friction contact area and strategic plastic parts such as the white
plastic lever that connects the toggle with the main mechanism become
brittle, I can see a failure when trying to close contacts.
I went as far as reassembling the unit onto just one side, installed
bracing, bonded strategic pins, levers and springs so the unit can be
operated with half the cover is off!
Guess this is a leftover from when I was a kid playing with invisible V8s
and invisible radial aeroplane motors.
Impressive unit.
If anyone wants to see some pics let me know.
Ron Parigoris
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