---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/09/08: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:21 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Richard T. Schaefer) 2. 06:37 AM - =?UTF-8?Q?Re: Need for start-up protection?= =?UTF-8?Q?=3F? (jon@finleyweb.net) 3. 07:07 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? () 4. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: Need for start-up protection? (Robert Borger) 5. 07:33 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 6. 08:02 AM - Re: Re: Need for start-up protection? (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty) 7. 08:34 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Ernest Christley) 8. 08:50 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Dennis Golden) 9. 09:33 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Richard Dudley) 10. 10:06 AM - More debugging of alternator whine problem (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 11. 10:46 AM - Trim Speed (philip smith) 12. 12:39 PM - Re: Trim Speed (Bill) 13. 02:20 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 02:33 PM - Re: More debugging of alternator whine problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 02:39 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 03:13 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 17. 03:27 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Yahoo Mail) 18. 04:42 PM - Re: Re: Food For Thought (Richard T. Schaefer) 19. 06:40 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (B Tomm) 20. 06:41 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (B Tomm) 21. 07:31 PM - portable, handheld (bob noffs) 22. 07:44 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 07:45 PM - Re: portable, handheld (elhershb@comcast.net) 24. 07:50 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Dale Rogers) 25. 08:29 PM - Re: portable, handheld (Joemotis@aol.com) 26. 11:47 PM - Break a P+B toggle circuit breaker (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:55 AM PST US From: "Richard T. Schaefer" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? Spikes are not always the problem. This would stem from poor startup regulation as the alternator comes on line. Low voltage (during cranking) can cause some solid state devices that normally operate in a switching mode to operate in a linear mode. This can cause a device that normally does not need to dissipate heat to get hot and potentially destroy itself. A Transorb or TVS will not protect against these types of problems. r.t.s. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jon@finleyweb.net Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:32 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? Nice post Earnest, I totally agree. The responses to Sam's question have been disappointing. I am NOT an electrical wiz. That said, I think you are in need of a Transorb or TVS (Transient voltage Suppressor) Sam (or maybe Eric's Snap-Jacks??). The purpose of these little guys is to protect devices from overvoltage conditions by clamping the voltage at some set point. They are placed between the device and power supply. I'm not good one to recommend part numbers but there are lots of possibilities at Digi-Key. My goal in using these in my plane was not to allow me to leave the power switch on all the time. Rather, I wanted to avoid frying some peice of equipment when the day comes that I accidentally start/shutdown with something on. Jon -----Original Message----- From: "Ernest Christley" Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 4:14pm Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? Rodney Dunham wrote: > Sam, > > The short 'n sweet answer to... > "So, how do I make sure the ICOM is always off before engine start?" > ...is. Reach over and twist the ON/OFF knob CCW until it clicks! > What if the on/off switch is a push button type? > I do the "5 M's" mnoemonic on shutdown to help me remember to switch > everything off, including the Master. > ...Music (turn off all avionics in addition to radios if needed) > ...Mags (quick mag check, just to let you know that the rpm's drop on > one mag) > ...Mixture (full lean for engine cut-off) > ...Mags (both off) > ...Master (off) > > No fancy electronic knowledge required. Just good airmanship. And there's nothing wrong with good airmanship...however... 'Good airmanship' is so often code words for learning another lists of mnemonics to overcome the shortfalls of a poor system design. Why should I be forced to turn off so many systems manually before turning off a master switch? I don't have to do that in an automobile. An airplane engine is not that significantly different. Granted, the certificated airplanes are stuck by Federal decree with their glorious bobby-sock era glory, but the year is 2008, we're building and maintaining our own systems, and we no longer have to suffer such idiocy. The airplane should be built to accommodate the pilot, not the other way around. There are valid reasons to learn lists of mnemonics, mostly for transitioning configurations from one flight regime to the next. Shutdown shouldn't be one of them. All of my switches are in one place. The shutdown procedure is to verify that all the switches are in the down position. There is no point in anything more complicated. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:43 AM PST US Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection?= =?UTF-8?Q?=3F? From: jon@finleyweb.net =0AOk, then what is the answer? I am one of the folks that just can't und erstand why this is not a problem in cars but is in aircraft. Does a car ha ve a relay that disconnects all electronics during engine start or are the components better designed or ???=0A=0A =0A=0AJon=0A=0A-----Original Messag e-----=0AFrom: "Richard T. Schaefer" =0ASent: Tu esday, December 9, 2008 9:18am=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASubj ect: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection?=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0ASpikes are not always the problem. This would stem from poor start up regulation as the alternator comes on line.=0A=0ALow voltage (during cra nking) can cause some solid state devices that normally operate in a switch ing mode to operate in a linear mode.=0A=0AThis can cause a device that nor mally does not need to dissipate heat to get hot and potentially destroy it self.=0A=0A =0A=0AA Transorb or TVS will not protect against these types of problems.=0A=0A =0A=0Ar.t.s.=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: owner-aer oelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@ matronics.com] On Behalf Of jon@finleyweb.net=0ASent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:32 PM=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: AeroElect ric-List: Need for start-up protection?=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0ANice post Earnest , I totally agree. The responses to Sam's question have been disappointing . =0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0AI am NOT an electrical wiz. That said, I think you are in need of a Transorb or TVS (Transient voltage Suppressor) Sam (or maybe Eric's Snap-Jacks??). The purpose of these little guys is to protec t devices from overvoltage conditions by clamping the voltage at some set p oint. They are placed between the device and power supply. I'm not good o ne to recommend part numbers but there are lots of possibilities at Digi-Ke y.=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0AMy goal in using these in my plane was not to al low me to leave the power switch on all the time. Rather, I wanted to avoi d frying some peice of equipment when the day comes that I accidentally sta rt/shutdown with something on.=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0AJon=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: "Ernest Christley" =0ASent: Monday, December 8, 2008 4:14pm=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matron ics.com=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection?=0A unham wrote:=0A> Sam,=0A>=0A> The short 'n sweet answer to...=0A> "So, how do I make sure the ICOM is always off before engine start?"=0A> ...is. Reac h over and twist the ON/OFF knob CCW until it clicks!=0A>=0AWhat if the on/ off switch is a push button type?=0A> I do the "5 M's" mnoemonic on shutdow n to help me remember to switch =0A> everything off, including the Master. =0A> ...Music (turn off all avionics in addition to radios if needed)=0A> . ..Mags (quick mag check, just to let you know that the rpm's drop on =0A> o ne mag)=0A> ...Mixture (full lean for engine cut-off)=0A> ...Mags (both off )=0A> ...Master (off)=0A>=0A> No fancy electronic knowledge required. Just good airmanship.=0AAnd there's nothing wrong with good airmanship...however ...=0A=0A'Good airmanship' is so often code words for learning another list s of =0Amnemonics to overcome the shortfalls of a poor system design. Why =0Ashould I be forced to turn off so many systems manually before turning =0Aoff a master switch? I don't have to do that in an automobile. An =0Aair plane engine is not that significantly different. Granted, the =0Acertifica ted airplanes are stuck by Federal decree with their glorious =0Abobby-sock era glory, but the year is 2008, we're building and =0Amaintaining our own systems, and we no longer have to suffer such =0Aidiocy. The airplane shou ld be built to accommodate the pilot, not the =0Aother way around.=0A=0AThe re are valid reasons to learn lists of mnemonics, mostly for =0Atransitioni ng configurations from one flight regime to the next. =0AShutdown shouldn't be one of them. All of my switches are in one =0Aplace. The shutdown proce dure is to verify that all the switches are in =0Athe down position. There is no point in anything more complicated.=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Aht tp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List=0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics. ribution Gifts! Incentive Free Terrific s> [http://www.matronics.com/contri ww.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List] http://www.matronics.com/Navi =0A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:55 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? 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AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? Gents, FWIW: I don't switch the Avionics Master on till after the engine is started and switch it off before I shut the engine down. This procedure was drubbed into me back in the 60's when I was a student pilot and it has stuck with me since. It is also in the check lists of the two aircraft I fly most frequently. This procedure seems to preclude any issues of bus voltage drop or spikes affecting the expensive electrical goodies. This morning, I observed what occurred when I started my 2007 Ford Ranger Pickup (manual & small V-6). When the starter is engaged, the other electrical stuff drops off line till the starter is disengaged. So it appears that in the case of my little pickup, there is some mechanism to disconnect the electronics (in my case, the AM/FM radio/CD player) when the engine is started. Just my two cents... Check six, Bob Borger On Tuesday, December 09, 2008, at 08:37AM, wrote: > >Ok, then what is the answer? I am one of the folks that just can't understand why this is not a problem in cars but is in aircraft. Does a car have a relay that disconnects all electronics during engine start or are the components better designed or ??? > > > >Jon ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:18 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? Ok, then what is the answer? I am one of the folks that just can't understand why this is not a problem in cars but is in aircraft. Does a car have a relay that disconnects all electronics during engine start or are the components better designed or ??? Jon Most of us don't even notice that when we turn the ignition switch, in our automobile, to the momentary start position, the radio and most accessories are turned off until the switch is released to run. Do you suppose there is a reason for this?? Roger ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:56 AM PST US From: "Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty" Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? Robert, A key statement in your post is "buss voltage drop or spikes affecting the expensive electrical goodies." I agree with your post totally. Most of us building understand we do not want to damage our expensive electrical goodies, we only want to purchase them once! Consequently, we should follow our check list. Just my two cents. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Borger" Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 9:12 AM Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? > > Gents, > > FWIW: > > I don't switch the Avionics Master on till after the engine is started and > switch it off before I shut the engine down. This procedure was drubbed > into me back in the 60's when I was a student pilot and it has stuck with > me since. It is also in the check lists of the two aircraft I fly most > frequently. This procedure seems to preclude any issues of bus voltage > drop or spikes affecting the expensive electrical goodies. > > This morning, I observed what occurred when I started my 2007 Ford Ranger > Pickup (manual & small V-6). When the starter is engaged, the other > electrical stuff drops off line till the starter is disengaged. So it > appears that in the case of my little pickup, there is some mechanism to > disconnect the electronics (in my case, the AM/FM radio/CD player) when > the engine is started. > > Just my two cents... > > Check six, > Bob Borger > > On Tuesday, December 09, 2008, at 08:37AM, wrote: >> >>Ok, then what is the answer? I am one of the folks that just can't >>understand why this is not a problem in cars but is in aircraft. Does a >>car have a relay that disconnects all electronics during engine start or >>are the components better designed or ??? >> >> >> >>Jon > > > -- > Checked by AVG. > 9:59 AM > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:13 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? Robert Borger wrote: > > Gents, > > FWIW: > > I don't switch the Avionics Master on till after the engine is started and switch it off before I shut the engine down. This procedure was drubbed into me back in the 60's when I was a student pilot and it has stuck with me since. It is also in the check lists of the two aircraft I fly most frequently. This procedure seems to preclude any issues of bus voltage drop or spikes affecting the expensive electrical goodies. > Great training, and you are to be commended for your good airmanship. That's not the issue, though. The issue is whether the good training serves any purpose or if it is just an extra hazing point. The spikes have never been shown to exist. Short of a stuck bendix gear turning the starter into a generator, I've not heard of any theory that explains how a spike COULD exist. If the low voltage does damage to the radio during the few seconds that you are cranking, what is it going to do the day your alternator drops offline and you have a low voltage for many minutes. Will your radio burn up during the situation when you need it most? If this was a common problem with radios when pilots encountered electrical problems, wouldn't we have heard about it? Mostly what I've heard is more along the lines of pilots talking to center to get help until their battery runs out completely. And how about working on your avionics on the ground. If your troubleshooting and your battery starts to run down, do you run the risk of burning up your radio? > This morning, I observed what occurred when I started my 2007 Ford Ranger Pickup (manual & small V-6). When the starter is engaged, the other electrical stuff drops off line till the starter is disengaged. So it appears that in the case of my little pickup, there is some mechanism to disconnect the electronics (in my case, the AM/FM radio/CD player) when the engine is started. > Could it be so that all of the batteries power can be used to crank the engine? This would also be a valid reason to turn off everything in an airplane before start, but is totally unrelated to protecting electronics from some ghostly danger that hasn't been shown to exist and can't exist if our theories of DC electronics hold water. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:26 AM PST US From: Dennis Golden Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? Ernest Christley wrote: > Could it be so that all of the batteries power can be used to crank the > engine? This would also be a valid reason to turn off everything in an > airplane before start, but is totally unrelated to protecting > electronics from some ghostly danger that hasn't been shown to exist and > can't exist if our theories of DC electronics hold water. Yes, because that big old air conditioner is also running of the same accessory circuit. You don't want those kinds of loads on the engine while trying to start it. Dennis -- Dennis Golden Golden Consulting Services, Inc. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:18 AM PST US From: "Richard Dudley" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? It is amazing how deeply embedded the myth is. I have heard it from many flight instructors and read many posts promoting it on this list. Even after the technology has progressed and the specifications require tolerance, the myth persists. I am inclined to believe Bob Nuckolls assertions based on a long history in the industry and his many attempts to find the illusive "killer spike". It is too bad to have to include unnecessary and redundant steps in your procedures that continue to feed that myth. And even add a single point potential failure in the form of an "avionics master". The myth will never go away! Also watch out for black cats, ladders and broken mirrors. A little salt over the shoulder before each flight might help. Regards to all, Richard Dudley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Christley" Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 11:33 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? > > > Robert Borger wrote: >> >> Gents, >> >> FWIW: >> >> I don't switch the Avionics Master on till after the engine is started >> and switch it off before I shut the engine down. This procedure was >> drubbed into me back in the 60's when I was a student pilot and it has >> stuck with me since. It is also in the check lists of the two aircraft I >> fly most frequently. This procedure seems to preclude any issues of bus >> voltage drop or spikes affecting the expensive electrical goodies. >> > Great training, and you are to be commended for your good airmanship. > That's not the issue, though. The issue is whether the good training > serves any purpose or if it is just an extra hazing point. > > The spikes have never been shown to exist. Short of a stuck bendix gear > turning the starter into a generator, I've not heard of any theory that > explains how a spike COULD exist. > > If the low voltage does damage to the radio during the few seconds that > you are cranking, what is it going to do the day your alternator drops > offline and you have a low voltage for many minutes. Will your radio burn > up during the situation when you need it most? If this was a common > problem with radios when pilots encountered electrical problems, wouldn't > we have heard about it? Mostly what I've heard is more along the lines of > pilots talking to center to get help until their battery runs out > completely. > And how about working on your avionics on the ground. If your > troubleshooting and your battery starts to run down, do you run the risk > of burning up your radio? > >> This morning, I observed what occurred when I started my 2007 Ford Ranger >> Pickup (manual & small V-6). When the starter is engaged, the other >> electrical stuff drops off line till the starter is disengaged. So it >> appears that in the case of my little pickup, there is some mechanism to >> disconnect the electronics (in my case, the AM/FM radio/CD player) when >> the engine is started. >> > Could it be so that all of the batteries power can be used to crank the > engine? This would also be a valid reason to turn off everything in an > airplane before start, but is totally unrelated to protecting electronics > from some ghostly danger that hasn't been shown to exist and can't exist > if our theories of DC electronics hold water. > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:53 AM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: AeroElectric-List: More debugging of alternator whine problem I have continued the testing of the electrical system on my 601XL in attempts to reduce or eliminate the alternator whine. No luck yet. Here is what I have done so far: [1] Ran radio off an isolated battery. No noise. [2] Disconnected shield ground for headset wires. Noise persists. [3] Disconnected power for headsets which runs along side the audio wires. (Thought this was a good candidate!) Noise persists. Additional notes: [4] Whine increases significantly in volume when adding power. Implies it is power related, not ground loop, yes? [5] Noted that some Z-diagrams for permanent magnet setups show alternator control relay between alternator and regulator, and some show this between regulator and bus. Mine is the latter. Any reason to suspect this? [6] Noted that for installation diagram of motorcycle voltage regulator, they show it connected directly to the battery. In my plane, the voltage regulator feeds the primary buss separately from the batteries. That is, there are two power feeds to the buss. Any chance that moving the connection from the regulator directly to the battery and removing the "extra" buss feed would have any effect? Still hoping, and with a filter on order, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:28 AM PST US From: "philip smith" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim Speed Here's one for you electrical types. The elevator trim servo in my CH 701 ( read MAC ) runs really fast. When checking out the wiring I used a common 9v battery to confirm the wiring and it ran substantially slower - what resistor - gizmo do I put in series with the 12v to reduce the voltage to about 9v and slow things down. What would the circuit look like in a schematic? Thanks Phil ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:28 PM PST US From: "Bill" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trim Speed Phil Ray Allen makes a speed controller just for that. kina pricy at app. $45.00 I think it is fully adjustable over a broad range. Doc ----- Original Message ----- From: philip smith To: Aeroelectric-List@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:41 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim Speed Here's one for you electrical types. The elevator trim servo in my CH 701 ( read MAC ) runs really fast. When checking out the wiring I used a common 9v battery to confirm the wiring and it ran substantially slower - what resistor - gizmo do I put in series with the 12v to reduce the voltage to about 9v and slow things down. What would the circuit look like in a schematic? Thanks Phil ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 10/14/2008 2:02 AM ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:01 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? At 09:29 AM 12/9/2008, you wrote: > >Ok, then what is the answer? I am one of the folks that just can't >understand why this is not a problem in cars but is in aircraft. >Does a car have a relay that disconnects all electronics during >engine start or are the components better designed or ??? It's not a "problem" in cars. That shutdown of the accessories in automobiles is for load shedding during cranking that maximizes available energy from the battery for starting. This is especially important when the battery is nearing failure from age or abuse. > > >Jon > > >Most of us don't even notice that when we turn the ignition switch, >in our automobile, to the momentary start position, the radio and >most accessories are turned off until the switch is released to >run. Do you suppose there is a reason for this?? The most complex components in your car are used to orchestrate fuel and ignition control. Obviously, these cannot be turned off during cranking . . . the car would never start! The path to Nirvana is found by simply designing accessories to dance to the music described in DO-160 and similar documents for other industries. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/DO-160.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/avmaster.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection/Load_Dump_A.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection/DC_Power_System_Dynamics_C.pdf My points are (1) it's stone simple to design products that live happily with anything the ship's bus can throw at it and (2) it's been done by ALL suppliers to TC aircraft for 35+ years and most suppliers to OBAM aircraft (including the 'Connection) for 20+ years. Finally, (3) in spite of many queries to folks who worked in TC aircraft community (like Narco, King, Terra, Lear, Cessna, Beech, Wilcox, etc), not one individual has come forward to identify the source, character and total energy contained in the most feared "spike". It's one of those deeply held beliefs that endures to this day: "I know spikes exist because folks have worshiped at the altar of AV master switches for decades . . . can that many true believers be wrong?" Nobody would happier to be proven in error about this than I. Once the source is identified, simple repeatable experiments will confirm its existence and magnitude. I'd be pleased to write an article about it . . . and cite co-authorship to the individual who discovers (a) what does it, (b) how is it shaped, and (c)how much energy does it contain? Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:47 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: More debugging of alternator whine problem At 12:04 PM 12/9/2008, you wrote: >I have continued the testing of the electrical system on my 601XL in >attempts to reduce or eliminate the alternator whine. No luck >yet. Here is what I have done so far: > >[1] Ran radio off an isolated battery. No noise. Okay, this suggests that the noise is coming in through the power line. A filter is called for. What kind of radio are we talking about? How much current does it draw in receive and transmit? > >[2] Disconnected shield ground for headset wires. Noise persists. > >[3] Disconnected power for headsets which runs along side the audio >wires. (Thought this was a good candidate!) Noise persists. > >Additional notes: > >[4] Whine increases significantly in volume when adding >power. Implies it is power related, not ground loop, yes? Not necessarily but when you did the isolated battery test, that eliminated all other root causes. > >[5] Noted that some Z-diagrams for permanent magnet setups show >alternator control relay between alternator and regulator, and some >show this between regulator and bus. Mine is the latter. Any >reason to suspect this? No > >[6] Noted that for installation diagram of motorcycle voltage >regulator, they show it connected directly to the battery. In my >plane, the voltage regulator feeds the primary buss separately from >the batteries. That is, there are two power feeds to the buss. Any >chance that moving the connection from the regulator directly to the >battery and removing the "extra" buss feed would have any effect? Try it. If you have a test filter identified, you're on the right track. I have another filter that MIGHT be suited to your task if you'd like to give it a try it would be interesting to know . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:16 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? At 11:31 AM 12/9/2008, you wrote: > > > It is too bad to have to include unnecessary and redundant steps > in your procedures that continue to feed that myth. And even add a > single point potential failure in the form of an "avionics master". > The myth will never go away! Also watch out for black cats, ladders > and broken mirrors. A little salt over the shoulder before each > flight might help. Our customer base tends to help perpetuate the myth too. I had this discussion with numerous folks at Beech/RAC over a period of 20 years. All agreed that the AV Master could be dispensed with. Marketing objected stating that it was too much a part of the operating procedure and they didn't want to introduce new features that high time pilots might find troubling. It was decided that genuflecting at the altar of AV master switches would continue although that deity seems to have vacated the temple many years ago. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:54 PM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? As for me..Having my entire avionics stack that I risk my life on in IMC to one master switch with one fuse is not smart. For me I have 4 switches to turn off before start/shutdown..Its just not a big deal to turn them off..and if i forget then its probably not an issue a nyway. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:19 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? At 09:29 AM 12/9/2008, you wrote: Ok, then what is the answer? I am one of the folks that just can't unders tand why this is not a problem in cars but is in aircraft. Does a car have a relay that disconnects all electronics during engine start or are the com ponents better designed or ??? It's not a "problem" in cars. That shutdown of the accessories in automobiles is for load shedding during cranking that maximizes available energy from the battery for starting. This is especially important when the battery is nearing failure from age or abuse. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:02 PM PST US From: "Yahoo Mail" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? I started my flying with the military and they did not have a master avionics switch, so when I started flying civilian aircraft with the master avionics switch I thought this is cool you do not have to turn on each radio individually you do it with just one switch. I thought it was just for convenience. My aircraft will have a master avionics switch. Lynn A. Riggs http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 4:39 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? At 11:31 AM 12/9/2008, you wrote: > > > It is too bad to have to include unnecessary and redundant steps > in your procedures that continue to feed that myth. And even add a > single point potential failure in the form of an "avionics master". > The myth will never go away! Also watch out for black cats, ladders > and broken mirrors. A little salt over the shoulder before each > flight might help. Our customer base tends to help perpetuate the myth too. I had this discussion with numerous folks at Beech/RAC over a period of 20 years. All agreed that the AV Master could be dispensed with. Marketing objected stating that it was too much a part of the operating procedure and they didn't want to introduce new features that high time pilots might find troubling. It was decided that genuflecting at the altar of AV master switches would continue although that deity seems to have vacated the temple many years ago. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:01 PM PST US From: "Richard T. Schaefer" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Food For Thought The Cessna 400 has a "High Pump Enable" that is on during takeoff and climbs to 10,000'. Off otherwise. Actually they are on "Low On" over 10,000' for vapor suppression. During the "Enable" a low fuel pressure will cause the external fuel pump to run in "High" mode. This Is latched until the "High Pump Enable" is set to off. You must be able to disable a latched fuel pump. Some continental engines do not like high fuel pressures when the Throttle is not wide open. They can flood or die from being to rich. This is typically from a poor setup. The problem is that there are lots of these engines that have poor setups! You might want to check to see if you can run your engine at idle power with the fuel pump on. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:23 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Food For Thought At 02:38 PM 12/8/2008, you wrote: This looked like a good idea to consider for the Z-diagram library, or at least kick around here... -Bill B ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Valentine Kozak Subject: [OhioValleyRVators] Food For Thought I heard of a recent incident where an RV made an off airport landing due to a failure of an engine driven fuel pump. Maybe someone was just "joking" around but consider the following. If the boost pump was wired so that whenever the fuel pressure dropped below a preset value (around 15-20 psi for fuel injected engines) the pump would run without intervention of the pilot. Just an idea to make things a little easier on the pilot. Val Kozak What you've hypothesized has been done. Other airplanes I've flow call for the boost pump to be ON for takeoff and approach to landing. The times I've allowed a tank to run dry en route, the boost pump switch was turned on before the tank was switched. If this guy lost power and had enough altitude to effect a choice of landings, he certainly had enough time to get a fuel pump turned on. This is a case where adherence to abnormal ops check lists is a pretty inexpensive alternative to power-off, off-field landings. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:05 PM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? Bob, I too have never understood the fear of a voltage "spike" during engine start BUT, I always assumed that while the average pilot may not know what's going on here electrically, he may have reason to be concerned just the same. I always thought one could assume that during engine cranking, the buss voltage would sag. This sagging would "under power" the electronics currently turned on, and it would be this extreme low voltage event that would cause damage to sensitive things. I call it a "brown out" and many electronics don't like it. They malfunction in many ways. Sort of like not knowing whether they're supposed to be off, or on, or...off, no on etc. In your experience, could this voltage sag for several seconds cause trouble for some electronics (certified or not) in aircraft? Bevan RV7A wiring -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:39 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? --> At 11:31 AM 12/9/2008, you wrote: > > > It is too bad to have to include unnecessary and redundant steps in > your procedures that continue to feed that myth. And even add a single > point potential failure in the form of an "avionics master". > The myth will never go away! Also watch out for black cats, ladders > and broken mirrors. A little salt over the shoulder before each flight > might help. Our customer base tends to help perpetuate the myth too. I had this discussion with numerous folks at Beech/RAC over a period of 20 years. All agreed that the AV Master could be dispensed with. Marketing objected stating that it was too much a part of the operating procedure and they didn't want to introduce new features that high time pilots might find troubling. It was decided that genuflecting at the altar of AV master switches would continue although that deity seems to have vacated the temple many years ago. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:25 PM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? I do think it MAY be for protection, secondly for convenience. However, I will have a backup switch in the form of "EBUSS" switch for redundancy. Bevan RV7A wiring based on Z13/8 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yahoo Mail Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 3:19 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? --> I started my flying with the military and they did not have a master avionics switch, so when I started flying civilian aircraft with the master avionics switch I thought this is cool you do not have to turn on each radio individually you do it with just one switch. I thought it was just for convenience. My aircraft will have a master avionics switch. Lynn A. Riggs http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 4:39 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? At 11:31 AM 12/9/2008, you wrote: > > > It is too bad to have to include unnecessary and redundant steps in > your procedures that continue to feed that myth. And even add a single > point potential failure in the form of an "avionics master". > The myth will never go away! Also watch out for black cats, ladders > and broken mirrors. A little salt over the shoulder before each flight > might help. Our customer base tends to help perpetuate the myth too. I had this discussion with numerous folks at Beech/RAC over a period of 20 years. All agreed that the AV Master could be dispensed with. Marketing objected stating that it was too much a part of the operating procedure and they didn't want to introduce new features that high time pilots might find troubling. It was decided that genuflecting at the altar of AV master switches would continue although that deity seems to have vacated the temple many years ago. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:49 PM PST US From: "bob noffs" Subject: AeroElectric-List: portable, handheld hi all, there is a portable , handheld device[ like an ammeter] that will allow you to follow a wire thru a bundle of wires by attaching one end to the wire inside the conductor. then the device will pick out the wire in a bundle. what is this thing called, please? bob noffs ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:40 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? At 08:37 PM 12/9/2008, you wrote: > >Bob, > >I too have never understood the fear of a voltage "spike" during engine >start BUT, I always assumed that while the average pilot may not know >what's going on here electrically, he may have reason to be concerned just >the same. We TEACH people to be concerned. It's a primal force that sells a LOT of products! Just watch TV for an hour and count the commercials designed to instill fear of: getting old, hardening of the arteries, pressure in the plumbing too high, pressure in other plumbing too low, skin cancer, hydro-planing, home invasion, less than snow white clothes . . . you name it. In this case, we (at Cessna in 1968) didn't understand transistors and second-breakdown. It was assumed that "spikes" from the starters was killing our new hybrid vacuum tube/transistor radios. In fact, it was brown-out, not spikes that was killing the rather fragile, germanium power transistors in power supplies (the audio systems were okay). The Avionics Master was born there with siblings at Piper, Beech, et. als. 40 years later, we've learned to make products live with the ship's power as presented . . . but we neglected to un-learn a deeply held belief that has now morphed into an almost primal fear. > I always thought one could assume that during engine cranking, >the buss voltage would sag. This sagging would "under power" the >electronics currently turned on, and it would be this extreme low voltage >event that would cause damage to sensitive things. I call it a "brown out" >and many electronics don't like it. They malfunction in many ways. Sort of >like not knowing whether they're supposed to be off, or on, or...off, no >on etc. > >In your experience, could this voltage sag for several seconds cause trouble >for some electronics (certified or not) in aircraft? Absolutely! One of the DO160 recommendations is that a product EXPECT brownout during starter inrush time. Here's what my last van did in the summer time, it's worse in winter: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/95_GMC_Safari_1.gif Here's Dr. Dee's little red roller skate . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/99_Saturn_SL1.jpg Here's a B400A Beechjet . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/turbine_start_a.jpg All of these vehicles have electronics that in some cases is expected to perform during the brown-out for the purpose of getting an engine started. Other systems are allowed to complain but should recover gracefully after the brownout event passes. Graceful recovery is something that a number of OBAM aircraft equipment suppliers choose to forego. Here's an excerpt from DO160 speaking to a suite of power interruption/brown-out tests for digital equipment qualified to various classifications. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Misc_PDF/DO-160_Section_16_Excerpt_1.pdf The idea is that whoever has some notion of supplying equipment to virtually any alternator/battery DC system aboard vehicles has no excuse for not considering the demonstrable gremlins that need to be tolerated if not dispatched. All of my processor based stuff resets within milliseconds of having normal power restored. I'll be helping some folks with a suite of engine controls early next year. THIS system will have to operate through any transient event that does not drop below 6 volts . . . and recover gracefully for all events that drop lower. Not a big deal. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:22 PM PST US From: elhershb@comcast.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: portable, handheld That would be a tick tracer. Ed Hershberger 40430 Fuse -------------- Original message -------------- From: "bob noffs" hi all, there is a portable , handheld device[ like an ammeter] that will allow you to follow a wire thru a bundle of wires by attaching one end to the wire inside the conductor. then the device will pick out the wire in a bundle. what is this thing called, please? bob noffs
That would be a tick tracer.
 
Ed Hershberger
40430
Fuse
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net>
hi all, there is a portable , handheld device[ like an ammeter] that will allow you to follow a wire thru a bundle of wires by attaching one end to the wire inside the conductor. then the device will pick out the wire in a bundle. what is this thing called, please?
                           bob noffs




________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:16 PM PST US From: Dale Rogers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? jon@finleyweb.net wrote: > Ok, then what is the answer? I am one of the folks that just can't > understand why this is not a problem in cars but is in aircraft. Does > a car have a relay that disconnects all electronics during engine > start or are the components better designed or ??? > Nothing that complicated. An automotive ignition switch is a multi-pole device. In the "run" position, it connects B+ to two terminals: "ignition" and "accessory". When it is turned to the momentary "start" position, it disconnects B+ from the "accessory" pole. Usually, everything that isn't essential to running the engine is connected to "accessory"; hence, the radio (and, often, the cigarette_lighter/accessory_power socket) drop out, until one allows the switch to spring back to the "run" position. Thus, no need for a check list. HTH, Dale R. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:11 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: portable, handheld A tick tracer is used to detect voltage by induction. I believe that what he is looking for is a Toner. A toner is a 9 volt powered signal generator with 2 leads to clip to the conductor and a ground/ The other half is an inductive amplifier that picks up the signal usually a DeeDO "tone" Quite useful on telephone back boards and any place else you are trying to pick a conductor out of a rat's nest. Joe Motis Do no Archive In a message dated 12/9/2008 7:46:33 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, elhershb@comcast.net writes: That would be a tick tracer. Ed Hershberger 40430 Fuse -------------- Original message -------------- From: "bob noffs" hi all, there is a portable , handheld device[ like an ammeter] that will allow you to follow a wire thru a bundle of wires by attaching one end to the wire inside the conductor. then the device will pick out the wire in a bundle. what is this thing called, please? bob noffs (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:31 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Break a P+B toggle circuit breaker From: rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US Borrowed a new P+B toggle circuit breaker form local IA to help with design of electrical stuff that is going in and behind passenger headrest of our Europa XS monowheel. I wanted to screw on a ring terminals to get better idea of space requirements. Sounds easy enough. Grabbed my favorite #2 screwdriver and removed first screw, the second one was unbelievably tight. I got it loose, but put a crack in the plastic housing because the torque required to loosen the screw distorted the lug. What an idiot, even though the factory should have not tightened down the screw so tight, I should have just held the lug with a pair of pliers to prevent any stress from being transmitted to housing, instead of holding the housing and loosening the screw. OK $25 mistake, won't let that happen again. Figured would let others in on my mistake so it happens not to you. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Since I am now the proud owner of a cracked P+B toggle breaker, even though a little JB Weld could fix it, I decided to dissect. I never liked the high factor of wigulation (feel) the toggle has on these units so figured I needed a look. My business is copiers, and several times a year I end up taking apart switches and relays to do field repair to get machines going till I can obtain a new one. I am pretty aware of what fails in electrical parts such as this. WOW!!! If you ever wondered why a P+B non pull able breaker is around 5 bucks, and why a P+B toggle breaker is around $25, take a look inside. There are close to 4 dozen parts on the toggle breaker! >From talking to people who have experience with these toggle breakers long term, they acknowledge good reliability, but man are there a lot of things in there that can fail. One thing I am pretty confident assuming, once breaker is closed I think it will maintain a pretty reliable connection. Trying to close contacts is a different story. It is a mechanical nightmare that highly stresses many components. There are things that are greased, and when it becomes well used and grease goes away from the friction contact area and strategic plastic parts such as the white plastic lever that connects the toggle with the main mechanism become brittle, I can see a failure when trying to close contacts. I went as far as reassembling the unit onto just one side, installed bracing, bonded strategic pins, levers and springs so the unit can be operated with half the cover is off! Guess this is a leftover from when I was a kid playing with invisible V8s and invisible radial aeroplane motors. Impressive unit. If anyone wants to see some pics let me know. Ron Parigoris ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.