AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Wed 12/10/08


Total Messages Posted: 23



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:56 AM - Re: portable, handheld (bob noffs)
     2. 04:53 AM - Re: Break a P+B toggle circuit breaker (Robert Borger)
     3. 05:53 AM - Re: Trim Speed (Dr. Andrew Elliott)
     4. 06:07 AM - Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent Pin Crimper (MauleDriver)
     5. 06:54 AM - Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent Pin Crimper (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 07:00 AM - Re: portable, handheld (Larry Mac Donald)
     7. 07:35 AM - Re: Break a P+B toggle circuit breaker (earl_schroeder@juno.com)
     8. 07:47 AM - Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent Pin Crimper ()
     9. 08:19 AM - Re: Trim Speed (Eric M. Jones)
    10. 08:29 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Eric M. Jones)
    11. 09:28 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Ernest Christley)
    12. 09:34 AM - Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent Pin Crimper (MauleDriver)
    13. 09:57 AM - Re: Re: Trim Speed (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    14. 10:01 AM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    15. 10:06 AM - Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent Pin Crimper (Werner Schneider)
    16. 12:08 PM - Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent Pin Crimper (Charlie England)
    17. 01:03 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (F. Tim Yoder)
    18. 02:00 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Dale Rogers)
    19. 02:52 PM - Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent Pin Crimper (MauleDriver)
    20. 06:01 PM - Re: Need for start-up protection? (Bob-tcw)
    21. 07:18 PM - Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent Pin Crimper (Ron Quillin)
    22. 07:24 PM - Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent Pin Crimper (Ron Quillin)
    23. 09:48 PM - Re: Break a P+B toggle circuit breaker (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:56:07 AM PST US
    From: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net>
    Subject: Re: portable, handheld
    joe, that's it! thanks, bob noffs ----- Original Message ----- From: Joemotis@aol.com To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:26 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: portable, handheld A tick tracer is used to detect voltage by induction. I believe that what he is looking for is a Toner. A toner is a 9 volt powered signal generator with 2 leads to clip to the conductor and a ground/ The other half is an inductive amplifier that picks up the signal usually a DeeDO "tone" Quite useful on telephone back boards and any place else you are trying to pick a conductor out of a rat's nest. Joe Motis Do no Archive In a message dated 12/9/2008 7:46:33 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, elhershb@comcast.net writes: That would be a tick tracer. Ed Hershberger 40430 Fuse -------------- Original message -------------- From: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net> hi all, there is a portable , handheld device[ like an ammeter] that will allow you to follow a wire thru a bundle of wires by attaching one end to the wire inside the conductor. then the device will pick out the wire in a bundle. what is this thing called, please? bob noffs ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution st href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one pcid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now.


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:53:15 AM PST US
    From: Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
    Subject: Re: Break a P+B toggle circuit breaker
    Ron, Please post the pics in an album on your build website. Bob Borger On Wednesday, December 10, 2008, at 01:43AM, <rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> wrote: > > >If anyone wants to see some pics let me know. > >Ron Parigoris


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:53:39 AM PST US
    From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" <a.s.elliott@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Trim Speed
    No need for a fancy controller unless you want a continuously variable response. Try a diode or two in the line. Each diode will drop the voltage about 0.8-0.9 volts. Be sure you use diodes that can handle the load. Example - A 1N4001 might be rated for 1A at 50V. Should be fine, I'd think. Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:07:17 AM PST US
    From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
    Subject: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent Pin
    Crimper I've become a bit concerned about the integrity of my crimped D-sub pins and socket. I've been giving each connection a tug after crimping and I just had one come off. Upon examination, I can't see the difference between that connection and others I recently made. So the question is, what is the proper technique for crimping on Machined D-sub pins with a 4-way indent pin crimper? I've searched Bob's site and the Web in general and can't find any how-to information. None came with the tool I obtained from Stein. In particular, how should the tool be adjusted? How far should the wire be stripped (should the insulation be clear of the pin or should it be in the pin)? Should I solder? Avoid the crimp pins altogether and use solder-on D-subs? Use the 'regular' crimp on, stamped pins instead? Crimp and solder (the hole in the barrel of the pin suggests that may be an option). Advice or links are welcome. Thanks Bill "building an RV10 panel" Watson


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:54:58 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent
    Pin Crimper At 08:04 AM 12/10/2008, you wrote: > >I've become a bit concerned about the integrity of my crimped D-sub >pins and socket. I've been giving each connection a tug after >crimping and I just had one come off. Upon examination, I can't see >the difference between that connection and others I recently made. > >So the question is, what is the proper technique for crimping on >Machined D-sub pins with a 4-way indent pin crimper? I've searched >Bob's site and the Web in general and can't find any how-to >information. None came with the tool I obtained from Stein. > >In particular, how should the tool be adjusted? How far should the >wire be stripped (should the insulation be clear of the pin or >should it be in the pin)? Insulation can touch the pin but the wires need to be inserted a minimum depth as observed through the inspection hole. My installations have a pretty good gap between end of pin and insulation when the strands are fully inserted on the pin. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_4-quad-crimp.jpg If your tool looks like this: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/rct-3.jpg There are no adjustments to be made. The tool is set up for D-sub, 20AWG pins like . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_20AWG_Pin.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_20AWG_Socket.jpg and should produce a finished joint like the first picture above. If your tool looks like this: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Daniels_4-Quad_1.jpg then there are adjustments to be made in addition to selecting the right pin positioner. The tool should have come with instructions. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Daniels_4-Quad_2.JPG http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Daniels_4-Quad_3.JPG http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Tool-Locater_Cross_Reference.jpg >Should I solder? No . . . > Avoid the crimp pins altogether and use solder-on D-subs? Millions of these pins are installed every day world wide and deliver as advertised. You need to figure out what's going on with your materials, tools, techniques . . . >Use the 'regular' crimp on, stamped pins instead? No, these are more problematic for the neophyte builder than machined pins. I don't even keep them in the shop. We've been 100% machined pins for 20+ years. >Crimp and solder (the hole in the barrel of the pin suggests that >may be an option). No, that's an inspection hole. If the wires are sufficiently inserted you can see the strands through the hole. >Advice or links are welcome. Thanks What tool do you have? What pins are you trying to install and what connector is the target residence for the pins? Are you trying to install 22AWG (high density) pins with the 20AWG standard density) tool? Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:00:18 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: portable, handheld
    From: Larry Mac Donald <lm4@juno.com>
    I believe your talking about a circuit tracer ! On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:26:50 -0600 "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net> writes: > hi all, there is a portable , handheld device[ like an ammeter] that > will allow you to follow a wire thru a bundle of wires by attaching > one end to the wire inside the conductor. then the device will pick > out the wire in a bundle. what is this thing called, please? > bob noffs ____________________________________________________________ Click here for free information on consolidating your debt. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2PBHOxNVrx6k3ZAyz5akIp3WQZhlKJ6mUzFuJ6GJ49mzmoJ/


    Message 7


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    Time: 07:35:12 AM PST US
    From: "earl_schroeder@juno.com" <earl_schroeder@juno.com>
    Subject: Re: Break a P+B toggle circuit breaker
    Interesting.. last evening I set about replacing a deep well pump pressure switch that had a water leak. Three of the screws were easily loosened and the appropriate wires attached. The fourth one was so tight [done by the assembler at the factory] that I needed a small compound pliers and much effort to break it loose since a phillips screwdriver sized correctly and a flat screwdriver just would not do the job and about to destroy the screw head. I even mentioned this 'problem' to my wife after successful completion with the comment that 'some little Chinese girl had over used the air operated driver when assembling the switch'. Of course the only switches available at Lowes were all 'Made in China'... Frustrating to say the least.. Earl do not archive -- rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote: Borrowed a new P+B toggle circuit breaker form local IA to help with design of electrical stuff that is going in and behind passenger headrest of our Europa XS monowheel. I wanted to screw on a ring terminals to get better idea of space requirements. Sounds easy enough. Grabbed my favorite #2 screwdriver and removed first screw, the second one was unbelievably tight. I got it loose, but put a crack in the plastic housing because the torque required to loosen the screw distorted the lug. What an idiot, even though the factory should have not tightened down the screw so tight, I should have just held the lug with a pair of pliers to prevent any stress from being transmitted to housing, instead of holding the housing and loosening the screw. OK $25 mistake, won't let that happen again. Figured would let others in on my mistake so it happens not to you. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Since I am now the proud owner of a cracked P+B toggle breaker, even though a little JB Weld could fix it, I decided to dissect. I never liked the high factor of wigulation (feel) the toggle has on these units so figured I needed a look. My business is copiers, and several times a year I end up taking apart switches and relays to do field repair to get machines going till I can obtain a new one. I am pretty aware of what fails in electrical parts such as this. WOW!!! If you ever wondered why a P+B non pull able breaker is around 5 bucks, and why a P+B toggle breaker is around $25, take a look inside. There are close to 4 dozen parts on the toggle breaker! >From talking to people who have experience with these toggle breakers long term, they acknowledge good reliability, but man are there a lot of things in there that can fail. One thing I am pretty confident assuming, once breaker is closed I think it will maintain a pretty reliable connection. Trying to close contacts is a different story. It is a mechanical nightmare that highly stresses many components. There are things that are greased, and when it becomes well used and grease goes away from the friction contact area and strategic plastic parts such as the white plastic lever that connects the toggle with the main mechanism become brittle, I can see a failure when trying to close contacts. I went as far as reassembling the unit onto just one side, installed bracing, bonded strategic pins, levers and springs so the unit can be operated with half the cover is off! Guess this is a leftover from when I was a kid playing with invisible V8s and invisible radial aeroplane motors. Impressive unit. If anyone wants to see some pics let me know. Ron Parigoris


    Message 8


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    Time: 07:47:00 AM PST US
    From: <rv@thelefflers.com>
    Subject: Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent
    Pin Crimper Bill, Marc has posted a good document on his website concerning connectors. http://www.verticalpower.com/documents.html I've picked up the Daniels crimper of Ebay, so I can't offer any advice on the 4way ident crimper. I would recommend not using solder. I think that is just putting a ticking time bomb into your panel. bob > > From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com> > Date: 2008/12/10 Wed AM 09:04:18 EST > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent Pin Crimper > > > I've become a bit concerned about the integrity of my crimped D-sub pins > and socket. I've been giving each connection a tug after crimping and I > just had one come off. Upon examination, I can't see the difference > between that connection and others I recently made. > > So the question is, what is the proper technique for crimping on > Machined D-sub pins with a 4-way indent pin crimper? I've searched > Bob's site and the Web in general and can't find any how-to > information. None came with the tool I obtained from Stein. > > In particular, how should the tool be adjusted? How far should the wire > be stripped (should the insulation be clear of the pin or should it be > in the pin)? > > Should I solder? Avoid the crimp pins altogether and use solder-on > D-subs? Use the 'regular' crimp on, stamped pins instead? Crimp and > solder (the hole in the barrel of the pin suggests that may be an option). > > Advice or links are welcome. Thanks > > Bill "building an RV10 panel" Watson > > > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 08:19:36 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Trim Speed
    From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
    The correct way to reduce the speed is to pulse-width modulate the input (kind of like jabbing the button fast). Reducing the voltage reduces the motor torque and thus the trim force. You might get away with it in some applications...but still...there is a point where applying low voltage to a stalled armature will just fry the brushes. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218674#218674


    Message 10


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    Time: 08:29:19 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Need for start-up protection?
    From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
    Your automobile doesn't require some "special" technique to get everything going. This is the classic "accident waiting to happen". The Air Force did a study of airmen where they turned on a red/green indicator light and the airman had to push a button in response to the green light. In about three cases per-thousand, the very best airmen either didn't push the button when the green light turned on, or pushed the button when the red light turned on. This seems to be the performance limit of for the best human brains. So if you have to turn off the avionics before starting. You'll screw it up 0.3 percent of the time. This can be expensive, and unnecessary. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218680#218680


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:28:06 AM PST US
    From: Ernest Christley <echristley@nc.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Need for start-up protection?
    Eric M. Jones wrote: > > Your automobile doesn't require some "special" technique to get everything going. This is the classic "accident waiting to happen". > > The Air Force did a study of airmen where they turned on a red/green indicator light and the airman had to push a button in response to the green light. In about three cases per-thousand, the very best airmen either didn't push the button when the green light turned on, or pushed the button when the red light turned on. This seems to be the performance limit of for the best human brains. > > So if you have to turn off the avionics before starting. You'll screw it up 0.3 percent of the time. This can be expensive, and unnecessary. > > Exactly, Eric. Years of training to work around a problem will never beat eliminating the problem in the first place.


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:34:20 AM PST US
    From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent
    Pin Crimper I think I have several problems and oversights that need to be addressed. I'm using a tool that looks like this: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/rct-3.jpg As you said, it is setup for one size of wire and one type of pin/socket. I've been using it on 20AWG and probably 22 AWG which would immediately indicate some inconsistency. But in this case, I was using it on 24AWG wires that was part of a pre-made harness pig tail. In addition, I was trying to strip the wire just far enough to barely clear or be flush with the pin. Given that this crimper seems to crimp concentrically at the the very tip of the pin, allowing any of the insulation into the pin could further compromise the crimp. (I'm attaching 2 pics of the pin that failed). I first need to determine what size wire the crimper is setup for and limit its use to that wire. And re-confirm I'm using the right pins (non-high density). For this particular connection involving the 24AWG wires, I'm going to follow your guidance on using a 9 pin D-sum with solder terminals along with shrink tubing, clear adhesive and more shrink tubing. It's a good solution for this particular connection. I'll have to take a closer look at the adjustable Daniels crimper if I want to get serious... but it may be too expensive to justify. What do you think? Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 08:04 AM 12/10/2008, you wrote: >> <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com> >> >> I've become a bit concerned about the integrity of my crimped D-sub >> pins and socket. I've been giving each connection a tug after >> crimping and I just had one come off. Upon examination, I can't see >> the difference between that connection and others I recently made. >> >> So the question is, what is the proper technique for crimping on >> Machined D-sub pins with a 4-way indent pin crimper? I've searched >> Bob's site and the Web in general and can't find any how-to >> information. None came with the tool I obtained from Stein. >> >> In particular, how should the tool be adjusted? How far should the >> wire be stripped (should the insulation be clear of the pin or should >> it be in the pin)? > > Insulation can touch the pin but the wires need to be > inserted a minimum depth as observed through the inspection > hole. My installations have a pretty good gap between > end of pin and insulation when the strands are fully > inserted on the pin. > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_4-quad-crimp.jpg > > > If your tool looks like this: > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/rct-3.jpg > > There are no adjustments to be made. The tool is set up for > D-sub, 20AWG pins like . . . > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_20AWG_Pin.jpg > > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_20AWG_Socket.jpg > > > and should produce a finished joint like the first > picture above. > > If your tool looks like this: > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Daniels_4-Quad_1.jpg > > > then there are adjustments to be made in addition to selecting > the right pin positioner. The tool should have come with instructions. > > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Daniels_4-Quad_2.JPG > > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Daniels_4-Quad_3.JPG > > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Tool-Locater_Cross_Reference.jpg > > >> Should I solder? > > No . . . > > >> Avoid the crimp pins altogether and use solder-on D-subs? > > Millions of these pins are installed every day world wide and > deliver as advertised. You need to figure out what's going > on with your materials, tools, techniques . . . > >> Use the 'regular' crimp on, stamped pins instead? > > No, these are more problematic for the neophyte builder than > machined pins. I don't even keep them in the shop. We've > been 100% machined pins for 20+ years. > >> Crimp and solder (the hole in the barrel of the pin suggests that may >> be an option). > > No, that's an inspection hole. If the wires are sufficiently > inserted you can see the strands through the hole. > > >> Advice or links are welcome. Thanks > > What tool do you have? What pins are you trying to install and > what connector is the target residence for the pins? Are you > trying to install 22AWG (high density) pins with the 20AWG > standard density) tool? > > Bob . . . > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 09:57:30 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Trim Speed
    >The correct way to reduce the speed is to pulse-width modulate the >input (kind of like jabbing the button fast). Reducing the voltage >reduces the motor torque and thus the trim force. You might get away >with it in some applications...but still...there is a point where >applying low voltage to a stalled armature will just fry the brushes. This is not true. Motor torque is a function of average armature current . . . whether the voltage is supplied as a steady state or pulse-width modulated source. The only way to reduce speed while RETAINING the actuator's maximum torque capabilities is to add electronics that maintains motor speed irrespective of load and voltage (within bounds). I did a tutorial on motor performance for a client last week. Here's the set of power point slides I used in that presentation. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Motors/DC_Motor_Performance_in_small_Actuators.ppt There are three major drivers of motor performance. (1) internal losses - i.e. total resistance of brushes and windings. (2) Torque constant (Kt) as a function proportional to average current. (3) Counter emf constant as a function proporational to motor RPM. The first three figures in the PP presentation speak to ways these parameters can be measured for any particular PM motor. Figure 4 is a compendium of motor performance constants and their relationships with respect to the speed that a motor can be expected to run when the applied voltage and torque requirements are known. Of particular interest is the last expression in the top box where all constants are combined in the Great Motor Performance formula. There are ways the algebraic models can be illustrated and analyzed graphically. Figure 5 shows the speed torque curve for a motor we were discussing for a particular small actuator design. Stall torque at 28v applied = 4.5 in-oz Stall current at 28V = .74 amps yielding a K(t) value of 6.1 in-oz/amp. Counter EMF constant K(e) of 4.5v/1000RPM Internal resistance of 37.8 ohms at room temperature. Figure 5 explores the effects of variable system loads when the motor is supplied with fixed voltages. The top set of data points show that over an operating range of .72 to 1.82 in-oz of torque, the speed of this motor can be expected to run between 5340 RPM at (C) and 3780 RPM at (B). Let us suppose we want to drive the actuator at 1/6th nominal speed over the same ranges of load torque. With a nominal load of 1.22 in-oz, the voltage needs to be reduced to 11.2 volts. Now as torque varies over the same range, speed varies from 1430 RPM at (F) and is incapable of carrying the expected torque level. The motor will stall. Figure 6 shows us what's necessary to maintain a constant speed over full torque range. Here we see that 11.2 volts gets us 1/6th speed at nominal torque. At full torque (point H) we need to increase applied voltage to 15.1 volts. At minimum torque (point J), applied voltage can be reduced to 8 volts applied. This functionality can be achieved ONLY with active electronics that adjusts motor applied voltage such that speed is well regulated. Smart DC motor controls for maintenance of speed under variable loads is what butters our bread these days. It matters not how the voltage is adjusted. It can be smart voltage regulator, duty-cycle pwm, or even a series resistor. NONE of these techniques will offer a STABLE speed with respect to load. Having said that, the effects of constant applied voltage for the Ray-Allen actuators is not too big a deal. The reason for slowing them down is to effect good control over fine changes in pitch at cruising speed. Torque loads on the actuator under this condition are not wildly variable. Set the voltage at the most useful speed and you'll probably not notice much variability of performance at cruise. For approach to landing, running the motor wide open is often the solution in order to achieve rapid changes in combinations of descent rate/ airspeed/power during approach maneuvers. There's a host of articles on motor performance on the 'net for those interested in exploring these critters in more detail. Bob . . .


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:01:42 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Need for start-up protection?
    At 10:28 AM 12/10/2008, you wrote: > >Your automobile doesn't require some "special" technique to get >everything going. This is the classic "accident waiting to happen". > >The Air Force did a study of airmen where they turned on a >red/green indicator light and the airman had to push a button in >response to the green light. In about three cases per-thousand, the >very best airmen either didn't push the button when the green light >turned on, or pushed the button when the red light turned on. This >seems to be the performance limit of for the best human brains. > >So if you have to turn off the avionics before starting. You'll >screw it up 0.3 percent of the time. This can be expensive, and unnecessary. Which presupposes that the reason for turning the avionics OFF in the first place is the magic wand that prevents expensive damage. In support of the study cited above, I can't tell you how many times I got into an airplane where the avionics master switch was already ON. Since the pre-flight check list doesn't say "Avionics Master Switch - Check OFF" then the electro-whizzies would already be ON when I started the engine. I'll suggest it's even more common than the 3 per thousand events cited. Bottom line is that it doesn't matter. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 15


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    Time: 10:06:24 AM PST US
    From: Werner Schneider <glastar@gmx.net>
    Subject: Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way
    Indent Pin Crimper That crimp seems to be to far to the end for me, mine are in the centre of the rear cylindrical part, so I'm afraid it's not properly adjusted. AWG 24 will be to small for this pins (however you might be able when doubling the wires to get a good grip, just the number of strands are marginal if no strain relief on a d-sub case housing is done) br Werner MauleDriver wrote: > I think I have several problems and oversights that need to be addressed. > > I'm using a tool that looks like this: > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/rct-3.jpg > As you said, it is setup for one size of wire and one type of > pin/socket. I've been using it on 20AWG and probably 22 AWG which > would immediately indicate some inconsistency. But in this case, I > was using it on 24AWG wires that was part of a pre-made harness pig tail. > > In addition, I was trying to strip the wire just far enough to barely > clear or be flush with the pin. Given that this crimper seems to > crimp concentrically at the the very tip of the pin, allowing any of > the insulation into the pin could further compromise the crimp. (I'm > attaching 2 pics of the pin that failed). > I first need to determine what size wire the crimper is setup for and > limit its use to that wire. And re-confirm I'm using the right pins > (non-high density). > > For this particular connection involving the 24AWG wires, I'm going to > follow your guidance on using a 9 pin D-sum with solder terminals > along with shrink tubing, clear adhesive and more shrink tubing. It's > a good solution for this particular connection. > > I'll have to take a closer look at the adjustable Daniels crimper if I > want to get serious... but it may be too expensive to justify. > > What do you think? > > > Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> >> >> At 08:04 AM 12/10/2008, you wrote: >>> <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com> >>> >>> I've become a bit concerned about the integrity of my crimped D-sub >>> pins and socket. I've been giving each connection a tug after >>> crimping and I just had one come off. Upon examination, I can't see >>> the difference between that connection and others I recently made. >>> >>> So the question is, what is the proper technique for crimping on >>> Machined D-sub pins with a 4-way indent pin crimper? I've searched >>> Bob's site and the Web in general and can't find any how-to >>> information. None came with the tool I obtained from Stein. >>> >>> In particular, how should the tool be adjusted? How far should the >>> wire be stripped (should the insulation be clear of the pin or >>> should it be in the pin)? >> >> Insulation can touch the pin but the wires need to be >> inserted a minimum depth as observed through the inspection >> hole. My installations have a pretty good gap between >> end of pin and insulation when the strands are fully >> inserted on the pin. >> >> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_4-quad-crimp.jpg >> >> >> >> If your tool looks like this: >> >> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/rct-3.jpg >> >> There are no adjustments to be made. The tool is set up for >> D-sub, 20AWG pins like . . . >> >> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_20AWG_Pin.jpg >> >> >> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_20AWG_Socket.jpg >> >> >> and should produce a finished joint like the first >> picture above. >> >> If your tool looks like this: >> >> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Daniels_4-Quad_1.jpg >> >> >> then there are adjustments to be made in addition to selecting >> the right pin positioner. The tool should have come with instructions. >> >> >> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Daniels_4-Quad_2.JPG >> >> >> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Daniels_4-Quad_3.JPG >> >> >> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Tool-Locater_Cross_Reference.jpg >> >> >> >> >>> Should I solder? >> >> No . . . >> >> >>> Avoid the crimp pins altogether and use solder-on D-subs? >> >> Millions of these pins are installed every day world wide and >> deliver as advertised. You need to figure out what's going >> on with your materials, tools, techniques . . . >> >>> Use the 'regular' crimp on, stamped pins instead? >> >> No, these are more problematic for the neophyte builder than >> machined pins. I don't even keep them in the shop. We've >> been 100% machined pins for 20+ years. >> >>> Crimp and solder (the hole in the barrel of the pin suggests that >>> may be an option). >> >> No, that's an inspection hole. If the wires are sufficiently >> inserted you can see the strands through the hole. >> >> >>> Advice or links are welcome. Thanks >> >> What tool do you have? What pins are you trying to install and >> what connector is the target residence for the pins? Are you >> trying to install 22AWG (high density) pins with the 20AWG >> standard density) tool? >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >


    Message 16


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    Time: 12:08:14 PM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent
    Pin Crimper Having worked with both solder and crimp for around 30 years, I'd have to say that the solder comment is...terrorism?? ;-) I've seen solder joints fail when they weren't done properly, and I've seen crimps fail when they weren't done properly. I've seen wires break where the 'wicked' (one syllable) solder stopped in the wire, and I've seen wires break at the end of a crimped connector. Either will break if not properly supported outside the joint. Until the recent availability of inexpensive d-sub crimpers, you had to just be a tool collector to buy a crimper for the few hundred connections in one airplane when solder works just as well and the amortized cost of the crimper alone was roughly $1 per crimp. The solder cup type connectors are still a lot cheaper than the machined removable pins; they are just less convenient to wire for a novice. I actually have more faith in solder, but admit that it's largely personal preference. Charlie rv@thelefflers.com wrote: > > Bill, > > Marc has posted a good document on his website concerning connectors. http://www.verticalpower.com/documents.html > > I've picked up the Daniels crimper of Ebay, so I can't offer any advice on the 4way ident crimper. > > I would recommend not using solder. I think that is just putting a ticking time bomb into your panel. > > bob > > >> From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com> >> Date: 2008/12/10 Wed AM 09:04:18 EST >> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way Indent Pin Crimper >> >> >> I've become a bit concerned about the integrity of my crimped D-sub pins >> and socket. I've been giving each connection a tug after crimping and I >> just had one come off. Upon examination, I can't see the difference >> between that connection and others I recently made. >> >> So the question is, what is the proper technique for crimping on >> Machined D-sub pins with a 4-way indent pin crimper? I've searched >> Bob's site and the Web in general and can't find any how-to >> information. None came with the tool I obtained from Stein. >> >> In particular, how should the tool be adjusted? How far should the wire >> be stripped (should the insulation be clear of the pin or should it be >> in the pin)? >> >> Should I solder? Avoid the crimp pins altogether and use solder-on >> D-subs? Use the 'regular' crimp on, stamped pins instead? Crimp and >> solder (the hole in the barrel of the pin suggests that may be an option). >> >> Advice or links are welcome. Thanks >> >> Bill "building an RV10 panel" Watson >> >>


    Message 17


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    Time: 01:03:54 PM PST US
    From: "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
    Subject: Re: Need for start-up protection?
    Bob, I'm getting the impression you are fighting a Up Hill battle. However, the new plane I'm building will not have an Avionics Master Switch. An Old Dog has learned a new trick! Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:00 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need for start-up protection? <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 10:28 AM 12/10/2008, you wrote: <emjones@charter.net> > > > >Your automobile doesn't require some "special" technique to get > >everything going. This is the classic "accident waiting to happen". > > > >The Air Force did a study of airmen where they turned on a > >red/green indicator light and the airman had to push a button in > >response to the green light. In about three cases per-thousand, the > >very best airmen either didn't push the button when the green light > >turned on, or pushed the button when the red light turned on. This > >seems to be the performance limit of for the best human brains. > > > >So if you have to turn off the avionics before starting. You'll > >screw it up 0.3 percent of the time. This can be expensive, and unnecessary. > > Which presupposes that the reason for turning the avionics > OFF in the first place is the magic wand that prevents > expensive damage. In support of the study cited above, I > can't tell you how many times I got into an airplane where > the avionics master switch was already ON. Since the pre-flight > check list doesn't say "Avionics Master Switch - Check OFF" > then the electro-whizzies would already be ON when I started > the engine. I'll suggest it's even more common than the > 3 per thousand events cited. > > Bottom line is that it doesn't matter. > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 02:00:33 PM PST US
    From: Dale Rogers <dale.r@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Need for start-up protection?
    Eric M. Jones wrote: > Your automobile doesn't require some "special" technique to get everything going. This is the classic "accident waiting to happen". > ... > So if you have to turn off the avionics before starting. You'll screw it up 0.3 percent of the time. This can be expensive, and unnecessary. > Umm, Eric, So - like - your proposed solution is ...? Dale R.


    Message 19


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    Time: 02:52:34 PM PST US
    From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way
    Indent Pin Crimper I think you are right about it being too far to the end. I spoke to a 'pro' who uses the same tool and he suggested inserting a small cellulose plug (i.e. stuff a wad of paper) in the hole of the tool. At least, that's what he does. Now I believe there are 2 ways of looking at it - 1) insert the pin and manually insure that the pin is more or less flush with the face of the tool or 2) stuff something in the hole so that the pin, when fully inserted, will remain flush with the tool face. I'm doing both - I stuffed a 1/16" piece of toothpick in the hole and I'm visually checking the how far the pin is inserted. Stripping enough insulation so that some conductor is exposed seems like a good practice too. None of that is acceptable in a production environment. But this homebuilder thinks he can handle it since a better tool costs $400. Thanks. Werner Schneider wrote: > <glastar@gmx.net> > > That crimp seems to be to far to the end for me, mine are in the > centre of the rear cylindrical part, so I'm afraid it's not properly > adjusted. > > AWG 24 will be to small for this pins (however you might be able when > doubling the wires to get a good grip, just the number of strands are > marginal if no strain relief on a d-sub case housing is done) > > br Werner > > MauleDriver wrote: >> I think I have several problems and oversights that need to be >> addressed. >> >> I'm using a tool that looks like this: >> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/rct-3.jpg >> As you said, it is setup for one size of wire and one type of >> pin/socket. I've been using it on 20AWG and probably 22 AWG which >> would immediately indicate some inconsistency. But in this case, I >> was using it on 24AWG wires that was part of a pre-made harness pig >> tail. >> >> In addition, I was trying to strip the wire just far enough to barely >> clear or be flush with the pin. Given that this crimper seems to >> crimp concentrically at the the very tip of the pin, allowing any of >> the insulation into the pin could further compromise the crimp. (I'm >> attaching 2 pics of the pin that failed). >> I first need to determine what size wire the crimper is setup for and >> limit its use to that wire. And re-confirm I'm using the right pins >> (non-high density). >> >> For this particular connection involving the 24AWG wires, I'm going >> to follow your guidance on using a 9 pin D-sum with solder terminals >> along with shrink tubing, clear adhesive and more shrink tubing. >> It's a good solution for this particular connection. >> >> I'll have to take a closer look at the adjustable Daniels crimper if >> I want to get serious... but it may be too expensive to justify. >> >> What do you think? >> >> >> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> >>> >>> At 08:04 AM 12/10/2008, you wrote: >>>> <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com> >>>> >>>> I've become a bit concerned about the integrity of my crimped D-sub >>>> pins and socket. I've been giving each connection a tug after >>>> crimping and I just had one come off. Upon examination, I can't >>>> see the difference between that connection and others I recently made. >>>> >>>> So the question is, what is the proper technique for crimping on >>>> Machined D-sub pins with a 4-way indent pin crimper? I've searched >>>> Bob's site and the Web in general and can't find any how-to >>>> information. None came with the tool I obtained from Stein. >>>> >>>> In particular, how should the tool be adjusted? How far should the >>>> wire be stripped (should the insulation be clear of the pin or >>>> should it be in the pin)? >>> >>> Insulation can touch the pin but the wires need to be >>> inserted a minimum depth as observed through the inspection >>> hole. My installations have a pretty good gap between >>> end of pin and insulation when the strands are fully >>> inserted on the pin. >>> >>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_4-quad-crimp.jpg >>> >>> >>> >>> If your tool looks like this: >>> >>> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/rct-3.jpg >>> >>> There are no adjustments to be made. The tool is set up for >>> D-sub, 20AWG pins like . . . >>> >>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_20AWG_Pin.jpg >>> >>> >>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_20AWG_Socket.jpg >>> >>> >>> and should produce a finished joint like the first >>> picture above. >>> >>> If your tool looks like this: >>> >>> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Daniels_4-Quad_1.jpg >>> >>> >>> then there are adjustments to be made in addition to selecting >>> the right pin positioner. The tool should have come with >>> instructions. >>> >>> >>> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Daniels_4-Quad_2.JPG >>> >>> >>> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Daniels_4-Quad_3.JPG >>> >>> >>> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Tool-Locater_Cross_Reference.jpg >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Should I solder? >>> >>> No . . . >>> >>> >>>> Avoid the crimp pins altogether and use solder-on D-subs? >>> >>> Millions of these pins are installed every day world wide and >>> deliver as advertised. You need to figure out what's going >>> on with your materials, tools, techniques . . . >>> >>>> Use the 'regular' crimp on, stamped pins instead? >>> >>> No, these are more problematic for the neophyte builder than >>> machined pins. I don't even keep them in the shop. We've >>> been 100% machined pins for 20+ years. >>> >>>> Crimp and solder (the hole in the barrel of the pin suggests that >>>> may be an option). >>> >>> No, that's an inspection hole. If the wires are sufficiently >>> inserted you can see the strands through the hole. >>> >>> >>>> Advice or links are welcome. Thanks >>> >>> What tool do you have? What pins are you trying to install and >>> what connector is the target residence for the pins? Are you >>> trying to install 22AWG (high density) pins with the 20AWG >>> standard density) tool? >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >


    Message 20


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    Time: 06:01:59 PM PST US
    From: "Bob-tcw" <rnewman@tcwtech.com>
    Subject: Re: Need for start-up protection?
    For those who are interested in having your EFIS , GPS, or Engine monitor up an running before engine starting and having them continue to run through engine start (without rebooting) we sell a series of products that allow these products to be supplied with continuous and regulated power even when the battery voltage drops to 5 volts or less during engine starting. The product line is called Intelligent Power Stabilizer and we demonstrated it at our booth at Oshkosh. All the details of what it does and how it works are available on our web site. www.tcwtech.com Thanks, Bob Newman rnewman@tcwtech.com


    Message 21


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    Time: 07:18:32 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way
    Indent Pin Crimper
    From: Ron Quillin <rjquillin@gmail.com>
    At 09:33 12/10/2008, you wrote: >I think I have several problems and oversights that need to be addressed. Having been to this training required for my employment, I find the gold standard to be NASA 8739.4 CRIMPING, INTERCONNECTING CABLES, HARNESSES, AND WIRING http://workmanship.nasa.gov/ws_8739_4.jsp There is a radio button on page "Click Here to view NASA-STD-8739.4" that downloads a 2.1MB pdf. This document is worth a read by anyone wiring flight hardware. It deals with not only crimp connections, but also stripping, soldered splices, harnessing, lacing and most anything else you could want to know about making and inspecting reliable connections, both shielded and unshielded. Regarding crimpers, frequently on eBay you can find AFM-8 adjustable (for differing gage wire) crimpers, Daniels or other, with positioners to get the pin where it belongs for under $100. Bob has some great stuff published to make our lives easier and I'm not quibbling with it, but this really is worth the read. Appendix A beginning on page 103 details what is and is not acceptable in pictures. Ron Q. Ronald Quillin Principal Electronic Technician Center for Astrophysics and Space Sciences University of California, San Diego 9500 Gilman Drive La Jolla CA 92093-0424 +1.858.534.4489 V +1.858.534.2294 F


    Message 22


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    Time: 07:24:30 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Crimping of machined D-sub pins with 4-Way
    Indent Pin Crimper
    From: Ron Quillin <rjquillin@gmail.com>
    At 09:33 12/10/2008, you wrote: >I think I have several problems and oversights that need to be addressed. Having been to this training required for my employment, I find the gold standard to be NASA 8739.4 CRIMPING, INTERCONNECTING CABLES, HARNESSES, AND WIRING http://workmanship.nasa.gov/ws_8739_4.jsp There is a radio button on page "Click Here to view NASA-STD-8739.4" that downloads a 2.1MB pdf. I also intended to include the link to this visual guide http://workmanship.nasa.gov/insp.jsp Excellent color pics and drawings. Ron Q.


    Message 23


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    Time: 09:48:58 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Break a P+B toggle circuit breaker
    From: rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
    "Please post the pics in an album on your build website." Bob Borger Hi Bob Here is a link to album on my build website: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album258&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Click on Break a breaker. Ron Parigoris




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