Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:27 AM - Update on alternator whine problem. (Dr. Andrew Elliott)
2. 08:49 AM - Re: Update on alternator whine problem. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 09:29 AM - Re: Transformer (off subject) (Richard T. Schaefer)
4. 10:03 AM - Re: SD-8 self excitation (John Morgensen)
5. 02:54 PM - Re: Transformer (off subject) (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty)
6. 03:18 PM - Re: Transformer (off subject) (jaybannist@cs.com)
7. 06:02 PM - Re: SD-8 self excitation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: Master Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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Subject: | Update on alternator whine problem. |
Gang:
I previously reported an alternator whine problem in my recently
completed OBAM aircraft. The plane has an 18A permanent magnet
alternator (John Deere) and a motorcycle-type electronic voltage
regulator (Crane). The wiring is very similar to Z-19, but with dual
batteries. The whine problem was so bad that at cruise power, the radio
was useless.
[1] Following the advice from the Connection and on this list, I tested
the system with the radio hooked to an isolated battery, which confirmed
it was a power problem, not a ground loop or radiation problem.
[2] Noting a difference between the motorcycle wiring diagram and the Z
diagram, I moved the regulator output from feeding directly to the bus
to the manual battery selector switch output. (No master relay.) This
has the effect of using the two batteries as a *big* capacitance and
reduced the whine to a "manageable" level. At least, with this change,
I could hear and understand the radio at all power settings, but it was
still not good.
[3] I installed an automotive-type whine filter (Peripheral PNF-12) on
the + lead to the radio. This is a classic coil-cap type filter that I
got on-line from HiFi Sound Connection (http://tinyurl.com/5ehsal) for
$7.18 with free shipping. The whine problem is now *gone*.
Identify - Analyze - Hypothesize - Test - Confirm
(Repeat as required)
Thanks to group members who helped, and of course to Bob!
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Update on alternator whine problem. |
At 10:22 AM 12/15/2008, you wrote:
>Gang:
>
>I previously reported an alternator whine problem in my recently
>completed OBAM aircraft. The plane has an 18A permanent magnet
>alternator (John Deere) and a motorcycle-type electronic voltage
>regulator (Crane). The wiring is very similar to Z-19, but with
>dual batteries. The whine problem was so bad that at cruise power,
>the radio was useless.
>
>[1] Following the advice from the Connection and on this list, I
>tested the system with the radio hooked to an isolated battery,
>which confirmed it was a power problem, not a ground loop or
>radiation problem.
>
>[2] Noting a difference between the motorcycle wiring diagram and
>the Z diagram, I moved the regulator output from feeding directly to
>the bus to the manual battery selector switch output. (No master
>relay.) This has the effect of using the two batteries as a *big*
>capacitance and reduced the whine to a "manageable" level. At
>least, with this change, I could hear and understand the radio at
>all power settings, but it was still not good.
Which confirms a recently modified theory as to the
value of batteries as noise filters. Given the heft
and obvious stiffness of a battery both as an energy
load and supply device, it's easy to assume that it
would behave sorta like a super-capacitor. I preached
that doctrine for years even when evidence to the contrary
was well known to me and others.
Batteries deliver energy below 12.5 volts or so and accept
energy at 13.5 and higher. As both sources and loads, the
dynamic impedance of the battery (read ability to play
super-cap) is pretty good. But once it's charged and floated
on a "happy bus" voltage, it's relative stiffness wanes
and in fact, it's a rather poor filter.
This is why Mil-Std-704 and similar documents advise
us that in a perfectly functioning system, the battery
has very little effect on the magnitude of ripple voltage
one can expect on the bus from a rectified 3-phase machine
(alternator). EXPECT about 1.5 volts pk-pk trash from
the alternator. It's even worse for a single phase machine.
>
>[3] I installed an automotive-type whine filter (Peripheral PNF-12)
>on the + lead to the radio. This is a classic coil-cap type filter
>that I got on-line from HiFi Sound Connection
>(<http://tinyurl.com/5ehsal>http://tinyurl.com/5ehsal) for $7.18
>with free shipping. The whine problem is now *gone*.
>
>Identify - Analyze - Hypothesize - Test - Confirm
> (Repeat as required)
>
>Thanks to group members who helped, and of course to Bob!
Pleased that it worked out. I'm going to order one
of those filters and deduce it's characteristics.
Radio Shack quite handling a line of filters that
builders used to find useful some years back. It would
be helpful to have an alternative to recommend. Thanks
for doing the trade search!
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 3
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Subject: | Transformer (off subject) |
Considering this is to be used for a kid, circuit protection, grounding, ..
I would recommend that you get a switched power strip.
Otherwise do as others have recommended, make sure everything is secured,
the switch itself is properly grounded,
and that any box you use is sturdy enough to take the abuse of kids!
Make sure that you switch the "Hot" wire (typically the black wire) or the
narrow tabbed wire.
If this is a two wire circuit (i.e. no ground wire) I would NOT install a
switch, a failure in the switch can pose an electrical hazard.
r.t.s.
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transformer (off subject)
At 06:38 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:
Pleas pardon the diversion, but I have a Christmas electrical question: I
have a bunch of left-over Carling toggle switches from building my panel.
My grandkid's toy train transformer doesn't have an on-off switch so it has
to be un-plugged at the (barely accessible) wall outlet. The transformer is
120V, 80W. Can I safely use a Carling 15A, 125VAC 3/4HP switch on one leg
of the power line?
Absolutely.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: SD-8 self excitation |
Any response?
Etienne Phillips wrote:
> <etienne.phillips@gmail.com>
>
> Thanks...
>
> I've emailed Greg at B&C to see if the regulator has been updated, and
> will post his response for the archives and general knowledge.
>
> Etienne
>
>
> On 28 Oct 2008, at 11:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>>
>> Unknown. The change to the regulator's internal are very
>> simple and I would hope that B&C would consider this
>> an upgrade worthy of consideration . . . but unless they're
>> advertising the ability to come on line without battery
>> support, it's fair to assume that no changes have been
>> made to their product.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Transformer (off subject) |
I hope this train has a junction box where this can all take place. The
hot wire will go through the toggle switch and the neutral wire will
just connect inline as is and the ground will do the same. If you make
a mistake it will not work but I'm sure you will get it right because
you have already built a panel for your airplane. Just my two cents.
Fun stuff.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Vern Little
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transformer (off subject)
Yes, if you turn off the power first!
Seriously, you want to switch the "Hot" wire. This is the one that
goes to the narrow tab on your wall plug-in. If you look at the plug
in, you'll notice that the two parallel tabs are different sizes (if you
home was built in the last few decades). The narrow tab is the wire
that you want to switch.
I don't know if Bob has a reference drawing for this, though. A
purist would also put an in-line fuse.
Vern
----- Original Message -----
From: jaybannist@cs.com
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:38 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transformer (off subject)
Pleas pardon the diversion, but I have a Christmas electrical
question: I have a bunch of left-over Carling toggle switches from
building my panel. My grandkid's toy train transformer doesn't have an
on-off switch so it has to be un-plugged at the (barely accessible) wall
outlet. The transformer is 120V, 80W. Can I safely use a Carling 15A,
125VAC 3/4HP switch on one leg of the power line?
Jay in Dallas
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12/15/2008 9:01 AM
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Transformer (off subject) |
I actually got a plastic "project box" at Radio Shack which made a real neat switch
box.? I only cut into the "hot" wire to connect to the switch with fastons.?
I labeled "off" and "on" just like on my panel.? Works just as planned.?
Same for the panel.
Jay in Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty <jfogarty@tds.net>
Sent: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 4:53 pm
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transformer (off subject)
I hope this?train has a junction box where
this can all take place.? The hot wire will go through the toggle switch
and the neutral wire will just connect inline as is and the ground will do the
same.? If you make a mistake it will not work but I'm sure you will get it
right?because you have already built a panel for your airplane.? Just
my two cents.? Fun stuff.
?
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From:
Vern
Little
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:29
PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List:
Transformer (off subject)
Yes, if you turn off the power
first!
?
Seriously, you want to switch the "Hot"
wire.? This is the one that goes to the narrow tab on your wall
plug-in.? If you look at the plug in, you'll notice that the two parallel
tabs are different sizes (if you home was built in the last few
decades).? The narrow tab is the wire that you want to
switch.
?
I don't know if Bob has a reference drawing for
this, though.? A purist would also put an in-line fuse.
?
Vern
----- Original Message -----
From:
jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:38
PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transformer
(off subject)
Pleas pardon the
diversion, but I have a Christmas electrical question: I have a bunch of
left-over Carling toggle switches from building my panel.? My
grandkid's toy train transformer doesn't have an on-off switch so it has to
be un-plugged at the (barely accessible) wall outlet.? The transformer
is 120V, 80W.? Can I safely use a Carling 15A, 125VAC 3/4HP switch on
one leg of the power line?
Jay in Dallas
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Message 7
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Subject: | Re: SD-8 self excitation |
At 12:02 PM 12/15/2008, you wrote:
>
>Any response?
Not that I've heard. I don't think B&C has a circuit
designer any more. If they were interested in the
upgrade I think they would have to farm it out.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Master Switch |
At 05:20 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:
><hammer408@comcast.net>
>
>Bob:
>
>I've just wired my DPDT switch - (2TL-1-10) switch which I'm using as my
>master. It is a locking switch and wired as in you Z-diagrams. I do have a
>question:
>
>I mounted the switch keyway-up and wired the terminals accordingly:
>
>#2 - to battery contactor
>#5 - to 5 Amp CB
>#1 - to ground
>#4 - to #6 terminal on the regulator
>
>Is this correct, I want my OFF position to be "down"...
That's what the diagrams show. It should work.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
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