---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/15/08: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:27 AM - Update on alternator whine problem. (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 2. 08:49 AM - Re: Update on alternator whine problem. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 09:29 AM - Re: Transformer (off subject) (Richard T. Schaefer) 4. 10:03 AM - Re: SD-8 self excitation (John Morgensen) 5. 02:54 PM - Re: Transformer (off subject) (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty) 6. 03:18 PM - Re: Transformer (off subject) (jaybannist@cs.com) 7. 06:02 PM - Re: SD-8 self excitation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: Master Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:17 AM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Update on alternator whine problem. Gang: I previously reported an alternator whine problem in my recently completed OBAM aircraft. The plane has an 18A permanent magnet alternator (John Deere) and a motorcycle-type electronic voltage regulator (Crane). The wiring is very similar to Z-19, but with dual batteries. The whine problem was so bad that at cruise power, the radio was useless. [1] Following the advice from the Connection and on this list, I tested the system with the radio hooked to an isolated battery, which confirmed it was a power problem, not a ground loop or radiation problem. [2] Noting a difference between the motorcycle wiring diagram and the Z diagram, I moved the regulator output from feeding directly to the bus to the manual battery selector switch output. (No master relay.) This has the effect of using the two batteries as a *big* capacitance and reduced the whine to a "manageable" level. At least, with this change, I could hear and understand the radio at all power settings, but it was still not good. [3] I installed an automotive-type whine filter (Peripheral PNF-12) on the + lead to the radio. This is a classic coil-cap type filter that I got on-line from HiFi Sound Connection (http://tinyurl.com/5ehsal) for $7.18 with free shipping. The whine problem is now *gone*. Identify - Analyze - Hypothesize - Test - Confirm (Repeat as required) Thanks to group members who helped, and of course to Bob! Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:40 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Update on alternator whine problem. At 10:22 AM 12/15/2008, you wrote: >Gang: > >I previously reported an alternator whine problem in my recently >completed OBAM aircraft. The plane has an 18A permanent magnet >alternator (John Deere) and a motorcycle-type electronic voltage >regulator (Crane). The wiring is very similar to Z-19, but with >dual batteries. The whine problem was so bad that at cruise power, >the radio was useless. > >[1] Following the advice from the Connection and on this list, I >tested the system with the radio hooked to an isolated battery, >which confirmed it was a power problem, not a ground loop or >radiation problem. > >[2] Noting a difference between the motorcycle wiring diagram and >the Z diagram, I moved the regulator output from feeding directly to >the bus to the manual battery selector switch output. (No master >relay.) This has the effect of using the two batteries as a *big* >capacitance and reduced the whine to a "manageable" level. At >least, with this change, I could hear and understand the radio at >all power settings, but it was still not good. Which confirms a recently modified theory as to the value of batteries as noise filters. Given the heft and obvious stiffness of a battery both as an energy load and supply device, it's easy to assume that it would behave sorta like a super-capacitor. I preached that doctrine for years even when evidence to the contrary was well known to me and others. Batteries deliver energy below 12.5 volts or so and accept energy at 13.5 and higher. As both sources and loads, the dynamic impedance of the battery (read ability to play super-cap) is pretty good. But once it's charged and floated on a "happy bus" voltage, it's relative stiffness wanes and in fact, it's a rather poor filter. This is why Mil-Std-704 and similar documents advise us that in a perfectly functioning system, the battery has very little effect on the magnitude of ripple voltage one can expect on the bus from a rectified 3-phase machine (alternator). EXPECT about 1.5 volts pk-pk trash from the alternator. It's even worse for a single phase machine. > >[3] I installed an automotive-type whine filter (Peripheral PNF-12) >on the + lead to the radio. This is a classic coil-cap type filter >that I got on-line from HiFi Sound Connection >(http://tinyurl.com/5ehsal) for $7.18 >with free shipping. The whine problem is now *gone*. > >Identify - Analyze - Hypothesize - Test - Confirm > (Repeat as required) > >Thanks to group members who helped, and of course to Bob! Pleased that it worked out. I'm going to order one of those filters and deduce it's characteristics. Radio Shack quite handling a line of filters that builders used to find useful some years back. It would be helpful to have an alternative to recommend. Thanks for doing the trade search! Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:29:39 AM PST US From: "Richard T. Schaefer" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Transformer (off subject) Considering this is to be used for a kid, circuit protection, grounding, .. I would recommend that you get a switched power strip. Otherwise do as others have recommended, make sure everything is secured, the switch itself is properly grounded, and that any box you use is sturdy enough to take the abuse of kids! Make sure that you switch the "Hot" wire (typically the black wire) or the narrow tabbed wire. If this is a two wire circuit (i.e. no ground wire) I would NOT install a switch, a failure in the switch can pose an electrical hazard. r.t.s. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:39 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transformer (off subject) At 06:38 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote: Pleas pardon the diversion, but I have a Christmas electrical question: I have a bunch of left-over Carling toggle switches from building my panel. My grandkid's toy train transformer doesn't have an on-off switch so it has to be un-plugged at the (barely accessible) wall outlet. The transformer is 120V, 80W. Can I safely use a Carling 15A, 125VAC 3/4HP switch on one leg of the power line? Absolutely. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:58 AM PST US From: John Morgensen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 self excitation Any response? Etienne Phillips wrote: > > > Thanks... > > I've emailed Greg at B&C to see if the regulator has been updated, and > will post his response for the archives and general knowledge. > > Etienne > > > On 28 Oct 2008, at 11:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >> >> >> Unknown. The change to the regulator's internal are very >> simple and I would hope that B&C would consider this >> an upgrade worthy of consideration . . . but unless they're >> advertising the ability to come on line without battery >> support, it's fair to assume that no changes have been >> made to their product. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:54:47 PM PST US From: "Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transformer (off subject) I hope this train has a junction box where this can all take place. The hot wire will go through the toggle switch and the neutral wire will just connect inline as is and the ground will do the same. If you make a mistake it will not work but I'm sure you will get it right because you have already built a panel for your airplane. Just my two cents. Fun stuff. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Vern Little To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:29 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transformer (off subject) Yes, if you turn off the power first! Seriously, you want to switch the "Hot" wire. This is the one that goes to the narrow tab on your wall plug-in. If you look at the plug in, you'll notice that the two parallel tabs are different sizes (if you home was built in the last few decades). The narrow tab is the wire that you want to switch. I don't know if Bob has a reference drawing for this, though. A purist would also put an in-line fuse. Vern ----- Original Message ----- From: jaybannist@cs.com To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:38 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transformer (off subject) Pleas pardon the diversion, but I have a Christmas electrical question: I have a bunch of left-over Carling toggle switches from building my panel. My grandkid's toy train transformer doesn't have an on-off switch so it has to be un-plugged at the (barely accessible) wall outlet. The transformer is 120V, 80W. Can I safely use a Carling 15A, 125VAC 3/4HP switch on one leg of the power line? Jay in Dallas ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 12/15/2008 9:01 AM ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:18:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transformer (off subject) From: jaybannist@cs.com I actually got a plastic "project box" at Radio Shack which made a real neat switch box.? I only cut into the "hot" wire to connect to the switch with fastons.? I labeled "off" and "on" just like on my panel.? Works just as planned.? Same for the panel. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty Sent: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 4:53 pm Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transformer (off subject) I hope this?train has a junction box where this can all take place.? The hot wire will go through the toggle switch and the neutral wire will just connect inline as is and the ground will do the same.? If you make a mistake it will not work but I'm sure you will get it right?because you have already built a panel for your airplane.? Just my two cents.? Fun stuff. ? Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Vern Little Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:29 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transformer (off subject) Yes, if you turn off the power first! ? Seriously, you want to switch the "Hot" wire.? This is the one that goes to the narrow tab on your wall plug-in.? If you look at the plug in, you'll notice that the two parallel tabs are different sizes (if you home was built in the last few decades).? The narrow tab is the wire that you want to switch. ? I don't know if Bob has a reference drawing for this, though.? A purist would also put an in-line fuse. ? Vern ----- Original Message ----- From: jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:38 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transformer (off subject) Pleas pardon the diversion, but I have a Christmas electrical question: I have a bunch of left-over Carling toggle switches from building my panel.? My grandkid's toy train transformer doesn't have an on-off switch so it has to be un-plugged at the (barely accessible) wall outlet.? The transformer is 120V, 80W.? Can I safely use a Carling 15A, 125VAC 3/4HP switch on one leg of the power line? Jay in Dallas Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com 12/15/2008 9:01 AM ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:14 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 self excitation At 12:02 PM 12/15/2008, you wrote: > >Any response? Not that I've heard. I don't think B&C has a circuit designer any more. If they were interested in the upgrade I think they would have to farm it out. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:54 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Master Switch At 05:20 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote: > > >Bob: > >I've just wired my DPDT switch - (2TL-1-10) switch which I'm using as my >master. It is a locking switch and wired as in you Z-diagrams. I do have a >question: > >I mounted the switch keyway-up and wired the terminals accordingly: > >#2 - to battery contactor >#5 - to 5 Amp CB >#1 - to ground >#4 - to #6 terminal on the regulator > >Is this correct, I want my OFF position to be "down"... That's what the diagrams show. It should work. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.