Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:42 AM - Re: Re: Master Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 06:12 AM - Re: Re: Master Switch (Chuck Jensen)
3. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: Master Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:45 AM - Re: Dual Lightspeed Ignition modules (Jeff Page)
5. 08:51 AM - Red start button and fuse. (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US)
6. 08:51 AM - Re: Master Switch (Eric M. Jones)
7. 08:58 AM - Re: Red start button and fuse. (Gilles Thesee)
8. 09:25 AM - Re: Red start button and fuse. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 09:50 AM - Re: Hall Effect Sensor Installation (marcausman)
10. 10:16 AM - Re: Red start button and fuse. (SteinAir, Inc.)
11. 03:43 PM - test (David M)
12. 07:08 PM - Re: Hall Effect Sensor Installation (Speedy11@aol.com)
13. 09:58 PM - test after unsub/sub (I think) (David M)
14. 10:09 PM - tried to unsub. can't. how do I? (David M)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Master Switch |
At 04:06 PM 12/16/2008, you wrote:
>I always thought that the keyway on any switch should go up. When I
>completed the wiring of my panel, I found that about a third of the
>switches were backward. I simply reversed the switches, placing the
>keyway down. All worked correctly after that.
>
>Jay in Dallas
I'm not aware of any industry-wide conventions for keyway
orientation on switches. The only time it makes a difference
is when you have special features in a switch that are
orientation dependent. For example, and on-off-(on) switch
is spring-loaded from one end of travel to center. If you
want the spring loaded-position to be lower-most in the
installation, then that drives how the switch is installed
irrespective of keyway orientation.
Similarly, if you have a switch with terminal numbers molded
into the rear housing, then wiring in accordance with a diagram
that cites terminal numbers will work correctly only if
keyway orientation for that particular switch is observed.
I have switches in my junkbox with no keyway.
And of course, this would include rocker switches. These
can generally be mounted either orientation but the
switch may not function as anticipated if there are
non-symmetrical features . . . typically terminal
numbering or special tabs like . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Split_Rocker_Rear.jpg
The keyway is added to many switches to facilitate robust
mounting.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Miniature_Toggle_w-Full_Size_Handle.jpg
The keyway is engaged by the often supplied tab-washer
to prevent the switch body from rotating on the mounting
due to torque applied by wires to the back or operator
from the front.
><<mailto:ceengland@bellsouth.net>ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>
>I'm not Bob, but the behavior of every toggle switch I've ever
>played with was to 'make' the contacts that were opposite the
>position of the toggle. Try to visualize the action inside the
>switch. The lever passes through a pivot, so when you move the lever
>up, it moves the 'guts' of the switch down.
Yes. Here's a couple of shots that illustrate Charlie's
explanation.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Carling_Cutaway.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Toggle_Switch_with_Mold-Captured_Terminals.jpg
> Keyway isn't relevant to this particular issue, except possibly
> for a keyed label plate matched to the switch.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/On-Off_Plate.jpg
Henry Trzeciakowski wrote:
> Bob:
>
> I've attached a jpeg picture of the wiring. With the keyway up, it appears
> to me that since terminal #3 & #6 are empty that theOFF position would be
> with the toggle in the up position ---the middle position would be BATTERY
> ONLY and with the toggle in the down position, BATTERY & ALTERNATOR.
>
> If that is correct, then could I move Ground to terminal 3 and Regulator to
> #6, so that the OFF position would be down, or would I be better
off to flip
> the switch to keyway down?
>
> Sorry for my confusion ?
You originally cited a 2TL series switch which
I presume is a Honeywell-Microswitch product. I've
illustrated the Miocroswitch convention for terminal
numbering at . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Progressive-Xfr_Split-Rocker_Switches.pdf
Now, as it turns out, the folks at Carling seem to
have adopted the Honeywell-Microswitch convention
for terminal numbers a couple of years ago. Bottom
line is that you MIGHT need to deduce how YOUR
particular switch functions. Quite often, you can
glean operational information from the manufacturer's
catalogs. I have a sampling of such documents on
the website at . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data.html
So for individual who read this posting now or in
the future, be aware that not all switches with
interchangeable functionality are labeled or keyed
the same way. So if the thing doesn't work the way
you want it to, the simplest solution is to get out
the ohmmeter and figure it out.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Master Switch |
The reason for the keyway being up is environmental. When the keyway is
up, the pins are above the key channel, so when dirt, grime and moisture
gets into the key slot, it lays in the channel instead of contaminating
the pin which have close clearances. If the pins were on the bottom,
all the crud getting into the key slot would fall into the pins and
cause fouling and poorly working pins.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Master Switch
At 04:06 PM 12/16/2008, you wrote:
I always thought that the keyway on any switch should go up. When I
completed the wiring of my panel, I found that about a third of the
switches were backward. I simply reversed the switches, placing the
keyway down. All worked correctly after that.
Jay in Dallas
I'm not aware of any industry-wide conventions for keyway
orientation on switches. The only time it makes a difference
is when you have special features in a switch that are
orientation dependent. For example, and on-off-(on) switch
is spring-loaded from one end of travel to center. If you
want the spring loaded-position to be lower-most in the
installation, then that drives how the switch is installed
irrespective of keyway orientation.
Similarly, if you have a switch with terminal numbers molded
into the rear housing, then wiring in accordance with a diagram
that cites terminal numbers will work correctly only if
keyway orientation for that particular switch is observed.
I have switches in my junkbox with no keyway.
And of course, this would include rocker switches. These
can generally be mounted either orientation but the
switch may not function as anticipated if there are
non-symmetrical features . . . typically terminal
numbering or special tabs like . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Split_Rocker_Rear.jpg
The keyway is added to many switches to facilitate robust
mounting.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Miniature_Toggle_w-Full_Size_Ha
ndle.jpg
The keyway is engaged by the often supplied tab-washer
to prevent the switch body from rotating on the mounting
due to torque applied by wires to the back or operator
from the front.
ceengland@bellsouth.net >
I'm not Bob, but the behavior of every toggle switch I've ever played
with was to 'make' the contacts that were opposite the position of the
toggle. Try to visualize the action inside the switch. The lever passes
through a pivot, so when you move the lever up, it moves the 'guts' of
the switch down.
Yes. Here's a couple of shots that illustrate Charlie's
explanation.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Carling_Cutaway.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Toggle_Switch_with_Mold-Capture
d_Terminals.jpg
Keyway isn't relevant to this particular issue, except possibly for a
keyed label plate matched to the switch.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/On-Off_Plate.jpg
Henry Trzeciakowski wrote:
> Bob:
>
> I've attached a jpeg picture of the wiring. With the keyway up, it
appears
> to me that since terminal #3 & #6 are empty that theOFF position would
be
> with the toggle in the up position ---the middle position would be
BATTERY
> ONLY and with the toggle in the down position, BATTERY & ALTERNATOR.
>
> If that is correct, then could I move Ground to terminal 3 and
Regulator to
> #6, so that the OFF position would be down, or would I be better off
to flip
> the switch to keyway down?
>
> Sorry for my confusion ?
You originally cited a 2TL series switch which
I presume is a Honeywell-Microswitch product. I've
illustrated the Miocroswitch convention for terminal
numbering at . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Progressive-Xfr_Split-Rocker_Switches.pd
f
Now, as it turns out, the folks at Carling seem to
have adopted the Honeywell-Microswitch convention
for terminal numbers a couple of years ago. Bottom
line is that you MIGHT need to deduce how YOUR
particular switch functions. Quite often, you can
glean operational information from the manufacturer's
catalogs. I have a sampling of such documents on
the website at . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data.html
So for individual who read this posting now or in
the future, be aware that not all switches with
interchangeable functionality are labeled or keyed
the same way. So if the thing doesn't work the way
you want it to, the simplest solution is to get out
the ohmmeter and figure it out.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Master Switch |
At 08:16 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote:
>The reason for the keyway being up is environmental. When the
>keyway is up, the pins are above the key channel, so when dirt,
>grime and moisture gets into the key slot, it lays in the channel
>instead of contaminating the pin which have close clearances. If
>the pins were on the bottom, all the crud getting into the key slot
>would fall into the pins and cause fouling and poorly working pins.
>
>Chuck Jensen
I think you're referring to the cylinders in locks. We're
discussing the keyway on the mounting bushing of a toggle
switch . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Miniature_Toggle_w-Full_Size_Handle.jpg
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Lightspeed Ignition modules |
I plan dual electronic ignitions for my aircraft. I started with
Z13/8. As much as I expect the designers have done significant things
to ensure the ignitions work, in spite of nasty power events, I
finally decided I wanted completely isolated electrical systems, so
any problem, no matter how unlikely or unpredictable, could not
prevent continued flight. So I added a few features from Z14. I
didn't go all the way. My aux battery is very small, and driven by an
SD-8 alternator. I did not join the batteries together for extra jolt
when starting. I do have a small cross-feed relay that will allow the
SD-8 to power the essential bus if the main alternator fails.
The biggest thing I wrestled with, was how was my wife to know what
switches to throw in the event of an alternator failure ? Together we
came up with coloured lines joining the warning light and switches
that are numbered. This low voltage light goes on, then flip these
switches in this order.
You can view my power diagram and the switch layout here:
http://www.curtispriest.com/tundra/Electrical
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
> Speaking of Hall Effect stuff, I just purchased two LightSpeed III hall
> effect ignition modules. The mfg says to connect the + side of the
> controller through a pull-able breaker then directly to the battery
> terminal. Ok, that covers their insurance folks if I crash. On the other
> hand I am using Z-13 and was thinking of using the same scenario but
> connecting them to the main battery bus using an ATC fuse and skipping
> the breaker. I was never a proponent of having extra wires hanging off
> the + side of the battery terminal. AS in Z-13 I will have a switch to
> turn them on/off as necessary.
>
> Has anyone wired up two of these and which method did you use.
>
> Glenn
Message 5
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| Subject: | Red start button and fuse. |
I have a red start button form Steinair (with one heavy bezel):
http://www.steinair.com/switches.htm
I like the switch. The tag on it says 120V AC 3A res.
I want to use it on a Rotax 914. I didn't find any info in the Rotax
documentation I have as to recommended rating of switch that should be
used.
Europa does recommend having a 5 amp fuse. Rotax shows a 2 amp fuse being
used. And Z-16 shows a 7 amp fuse being used.
I measured the resistance of the relay coil and it is 4.7 ohms. So if
there was a full 14 volts going to it it would draw a tad under 3 amps.
Often I see switches with a lesser rating for DC and inductive loads.
Practical questions:
Is the red button switch OK to use?
What circuit breaker rating should I use?
Thx. in advance.
Ron Parigoris
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Master Switch |
I have always been a proponent of the keyway-down school of thought. The reason
being, that a small splash of water or rain would stay in the keyway, or drain
inward perhaps, if the keyway were facing up. (I also presume toggle up is ON
and down is OFF.) There must be a patent on the keyway in the late 1800's or
some mil-spec but I can't find it.
NKK sells little ON/OFF switch plates for use with keyed bushings and they seem
to agree with my described system. I have seen many of these little plates and
they mostly seem to agree. But I am sure you can get the opposite kind, too.
On a related subject. The little "face" on US 120 VAC outlets: By NEC code, the
little "face" is oriented so that U-ground connection is the last to exit the
socket when a power cord is pulled out of it. This is judged by height usually
(but not always). The high sockets have the U-ground "nose" down whilst low
mounted sockets have the U-ground "nose" up.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219791#219791
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Red start button and fuse. |
rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US a crit :
> I measured the resistance of the relay coil and it is 4.7 ohms. So if
> there was a full 14 volts going to it it would draw a tad under 3 amps.
>
> Often I see switches with a lesser rating for DC and inductive loads.
>
> Practical questions:
> Is the red button switch OK to use?
> What circuit breaker rating should I use?
>
>
Ron,
I've been using a 5 amp fuse for the starter relay on our Rotax 914
project. Added a diode across the coil terminals.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Red start button and fuse. |
At 10:46 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote:
>
>I have a red start button form Steinair (with one heavy bezel):
>http://www.steinair.com/switches.htm
>
>I like the switch. The tag on it says 120V AC 3A res.
>
>I want to use it on a Rotax 914. I didn't find any info in the Rotax
>documentation I have as to recommended rating of switch that should be
>used.
>
>Europa does recommend having a 5 amp fuse. Rotax shows a 2 amp fuse being
>used. And Z-16 shows a 7 amp fuse being used.
Fuses or breakers in ANYBODY's diagrams should be
evaluated against realities of the accessories
being installed.
>I measured the resistance of the relay coil and it is 4.7 ohms. So if
>there was a full 14 volts going to it it would draw a tad under 3 amps.
Don't know of any batteries that put out 14 volts to crank
engines . . . but I suppose you could be jump starting
from your car with the engine running. But good for you.
Your deduction of current draw is the all importan first
step.
>Often I see switches with a lesser rating for DC and inductive loads.
Once you add the diode across the coil, it is no longer
inductive from the perspective of switch life issues.
>Practical questions:
>Is the red button switch OK to use?
Yes.
>What circuit breaker rating should I use?
What ever you like that is equal to or greater than
3 amps and commensurate with the size of wire used.
22AWG and 5A is fine. 20AWG and 5A is fine too.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Hall Effect Sensor Installation |
There is another option to consider that is offered by Vertical Power. The system
measures the current drawn by each individual electrical device. It then sums
each of the devices and presents the total aircraft current draw on the graphic
of the electrical system. So you can see the overall current draw, as well
as drill down and see individual device current draw.
IMO, such features are becoming more and more important as aircraft become more
and more electrically dependent.
As Bob stated, this is best used for troubleshooting, and during normal operations
is nice to see just to verify that everything is drawing the right amount
of current. The system (upcoming feature) can also generate a "current fault"
alert, which lets you know instantaneously when something is not drawing current
that should be drawing current (like landing light, nav lights, pitot heat,
etc.).
It also means you don't have to install shunts or hall effect sensors. It's all
built into the control unit.
--------
Marc Ausman
http://www.verticalpower.com
RV-7 IO-390 Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219806#219806
Message 10
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| Subject: | Red start button and fuse. |
Bob is of course right...and it sounds eerily similar to what I said on the
phone 30 minutes earlier!
Cheers,
Stein
Do Not Archive
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
>L. Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 11:24 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Red start button and fuse.
>
>
><nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
>At 10:46 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote:
>>
>>I have a red start button form Steinair (with one heavy bezel):
>>http://www.steinair.com/switches.htm
>>
>>I like the switch. The tag on it says 120V AC 3A res.
>>
>>I want to use it on a Rotax 914. I didn't find any info in the Rotax
>>documentation I have as to recommended rating of switch that should be
>>used.
>>
>>Europa does recommend having a 5 amp fuse. Rotax shows a 2 amp fuse being
>>used. And Z-16 shows a 7 amp fuse being used.
>
> Fuses or breakers in ANYBODY's diagrams should be
> evaluated against realities of the accessories
> being installed.
>
>
>>I measured the resistance of the relay coil and it is 4.7 ohms. So if
>>there was a full 14 volts going to it it would draw a tad under 3 amps.
>
> Don't know of any batteries that put out 14 volts to crank
> engines . . . but I suppose you could be jump starting
> from your car with the engine running. But good for you.
> Your deduction of current draw is the all importan first
> step.
>
>
>>Often I see switches with a lesser rating for DC and inductive loads.
>
> Once you add the diode across the coil, it is no longer
> inductive from the perspective of switch life issues.
>
>
>>Practical questions:
>>Is the red button switch OK to use?
>
> Yes.
>
>>What circuit breaker rating should I use?
>
> What ever you like that is equal to or greater than
> 3 amps and commensurate with the size of wire used.
> 22AWG and 5A is fine. 20AWG and 5A is fine too.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
Message 11
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Hall Effect Sensor Installation |
Ken,
Congratulations. You are the first to obtain a less than antagonistic
response on this subject. Perhaps moderate aging mellows us.
It is not a stretch at all to find amps a valuable bit of info while
airborne.
Stan
Do not archive
>It's a bit of a stretch but in some circumstances a loadmeter can be
>useful for discovering a problem:
>-did the boost pump really start?
>-are all the nav lights on or is a bulb burned out?
>-I smell something odd, is something drawing excess current?
Point well taken . . . and I'll admit that my
earlier comments were made while visions of
what has passed for "electrical instrumentation"
in years gone by were foremost in my thoughts . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Instruments/bat_ammeter.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Instruments/loadmeter.jpg
You're quite right that if your current measuring device
has the necessary resolution, it COULD be used for
in-flight or pre-flight validations as suggested.
However, if one has LED position lights, detecting
one malfunctioning fixture out of three may still be
problematic. I think if I had an engine that needed
actively pumped source of fuel, a fuel pressure gage
would be part of the instrumentation too. If I smelled
smoke, this gray-haired ol' sniffer of many failures
could decide if it was petroleum fed or some tortured
electrical component.
If a builder understands what the instrument is
capable of showing and finds it's useful to build
it into checklists then by all means. The digital
displays offer the most promise for such utility.
I've never flown behind digital displays of current
so I'll beg some indulgence for the 20 year old
thought processes. Thanks for rattling the cage!
Bob
**************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,
Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now.
Message 13
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| Subject: | test after unsub/sub (I think) |
Message 14
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| Subject: | tried to unsub. can't. how do I? |
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