---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/31/08: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:52 AM - Power Supply - Anode/Cathode (Andrew Butler) 2. 05:03 AM - Re: Power Supply - Anode/Cathode (Dale Rogers) 3. 05:07 AM - Re: Power Supply - Anode/Cathode (jaybannist@cs.com) 4. 07:05 AM - Audio noise revisited (Carlos Trigo) 5. 07:55 AM - Re: Brass is not a very good conductor (Dwight Frye) 6. 08:00 AM - Re: Power Supply - Anode/Cathode (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 08:25 AM - Re: Brass is not a very good conductor (David E. Nelson) 8. 10:03 AM - Re: Hour Meter/Oil Pressure Wiring (Henry Trzeciakowski) 9. 10:35 AM - Re: Re: Hour Meter/Oil Pressure Wiring (Ralph E. Capen) 10. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: Hour Meter/Oil Pressure Wiring (Henry Trzeciakowski) 11. 12:02 PM - Re: Re: Hour Meter/Oil Pressure Wiring (Ralph E. Capen) 12. 12:04 PM - Re: Audio noise revisited (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 12:39 PM - Re: Audio noise revisited (Carlos Trigo) 14. 01:44 PM - Re: Audio noise revisited (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 01:50 PM - Always Hot Battery Bus (Timandmeli) 16. 02:13 PM - Re: Re: CBA-II Battery Tester modifications/improvements? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 02:41 PM - Re: Always Hot Battery Bus (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: CBA-II Battery Tester modifications/improvements? (Sam Hoskins) 19. 04:19 PM - Re: Always Hot Battery Bus (paul wilson) 20. 05:11 PM - Re: CBA-II Battery Tester modifications/improvements? (CamLight) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:52:44 AM PST US From: Andrew Butler Subject: AeroElectric-List: Power Supply - Anode/Cathode Hello, I have no clue how to determine which is which. Can someone help? I have an electronic meter. I bought a low rate power supply some time back to use to power non polarity sensitive flap motors and the like. I cut off the attached 12V socket connector and attached crocodile clips. I didn't take note which wire was anode or cathode. Now I want to use it to power some of my avionics for testing etc. They are polarity sensitive. Thanks, Andrew. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:54 AM PST US From: Dale Rogers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Power Supply - Anode/Cathode Andrew, I hope I'm understanding what you are asking. To review: you have a power supply that has unmarked terminals, and you have a digital multi-meter or maybe just a DVM. You want to know how to determine - with the meter - the polarity of your power supply? Your meter should have a black probe and a red probe. With the red probe's lead plugged into the Volt/Ohm jack and the black probe's lead plugged into the "COMmon" jack, and the range set to, say, 50vDC, attach your power supply's alligator clamps to your probes. If the reading is negative, then your probes are cross-wired, so the clip on the black probe is the B+. If the reading is not negative, then the leads are connected correctly and the clip on the red lead is the B+. Have some red electrical tape handy to mark your power supply's B+ lead. Replace, when convenient, with red heat shrink. HTH, Dale R COZY MkIV #0497 Mesa, AZ Andrew Butler wrote: > Hello, > > I have no clue how to determine which is which. Can someone help? I > have an electronic meter. > > I bought a low rate power supply some time back to use to power non > polarity sensitive flap motors and the like. I cut off the attached > 12V socket connector and attached crocodile clips. I didn't take note > which wire was anode or cathode. > > Now I want to use it to power some of my avionics for testing etc. > They are polarity sensitive. > > Thanks, ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Power Supply - Anode/Cathode From: jaybannist@cs.com Andrew, If I understand your question correctly, the answer is an easy one.? Use a mulitmeter.? If you have the wrong polarity, it will peg negative.? If you have it right, it will show 12V. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Butler Sent: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 4:49 am Subject: AeroElectric-List: Power Supply - Anode/Cathode Hello, I have no clue how to determine which is which. Can someone help? I have an electronic meter. I bought a low rate power supply some time back to use to power non polarity sensitive flap motors and the like. I cut off the attached 12V socket connector and attached crocodile clips. I didn't take note which wire was anode or cathode. Now I want to use it to power some of my avionics for testing etc. They are polarity sensitive. Thanks, Andrew. ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:32 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Audio noise revisited To noise specialists I just concluded the installation of my Intercom, and although I took all the recommended measures to avoid ground loops and noise in general, I'm still hearing 2 whines, which after some time (many hours . :-)) of investigation, I think I identified the causes. One is the Air/Fuel Ratio Monitor, because when I disconnect its ground wire, the most high-frequency whine disappears. Which kind of filter (resistor, capacitor, diode, any other) can I install to eliminate this noise? And should I put it in the power(+) red wire or the ground(-) black wire, or is it indifferent? The other whine is from the COMM Radio (Garmin SL-30), because when I switch it off, the whine disappears. How shall I eliminate this noise? Thanks in advance Carlos ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:32 AM PST US From: Dwight Frye Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Brass is not a very good conductor McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/) has copper bar that you can order from them. I wanted a piece of 1/8" thick 1/2" wide bar, and found it as part number 8964K291. The downside? It was 3 feet long and cost $13. *sigh* As you might guess, I have quite a bit left if anyone wants to buy some off of me. :) On the other hand, it made for a really nice/neat/attractive set of connections between my master and starter contactors, as well as to my ammeter shunt. -- Dwight On Tue Dec 30 20:28:49 2008, Vern Little wrote : > >Ron, there has been some discussion on this in the past, and there were >questions about sourcing copper bus bar material. > >Van's Aircraft sells bass strips for this purpose, or you can flatten a >copper pipe and use it. > >I replaced the brass buss-bars on my RV-9A prior to completion after doing a >voltage drop analysis through the system. > >Probably would not make a significant difference, but if you have a choice, >use copper. > >Vern Little >Vx Aviation >www.vx-aviation.com >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 12:09 PM >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Brass is not a very good conductor > > > >Figured would share with the group at just how poor a conductor brass is. > >According to: >http://www.kp44.org/ftp/ElectricalConductivityOfMaterials.php > >Brass only has ~ 28% the conductivity of copper. (They don't get as >specific as alloy types) > >I need to somehow wire my port headrest (negative) to my starboard >headrest. Shortest distance is direct between headrests but using a >traditional wire will be unsightly and make for harder interior install. >It needs to carry enough current to allow an occasional jump start. > >Since Ace hardware sells .032" thick brass 1" wide (alloy 260), I was >going to use that and trim it to .75" wide until I researched just how >poor a conductor brass is. Could double the thickness and double the >width, but that would make for more weight and harder interior install. > >Anyway, going to use .75" wide by .032" thick copper alloy 110 and glass >it in place with one thin layer of 3/4 oz model aeroplane cloth. > >Ron Parigoris > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:41 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Power Supply - Anode/Cathode At 04:49 AM 12/31/2008, you wrote: >Hello, > >I have no clue how to determine which is which. Can someone help? I >have an electronic meter. > >I bought a low rate power supply some time back to use to power non >polarity sensitive flap motors and the like. I cut off the attached >12V socket connector and attached crocodile clips. I didn't take >note which wire was anode or cathode. > >Now I want to use it to power some of my avionics for testing etc. >They are polarity sensitive. Generally, the terms anode and cathode are used when referring to vacuum tubes, and chemical systems such as plating baths, batteries and dissimilar metals on boats. The source connections from a battery or power supply are more commonly referred to as (+) and (-) source connections. Most multi-meters don't identify their leads as (+) or (-) connections. For example: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Test_Equipment/tenma1.jpg This instrument has a COMmmon jack with a black ring around it suggesting the black lead be plugged in here. There are two jacks for the red lead. One dedicated to high current measurements (20A full scale) and the other marked Volts-Ohms-mA for voltage, resistance and low current measurements. The instrument will indicate positive readings when the red lead is positive. Conversely, when the red lead is negative, the reading on the instrument will be preceded by a (-) sign. Not all instruments are set up exactly the same way . . . it's useful to study the manual that comes with it and then do some experimental measurements on your car, with a battery and light bulbs on the bench, etc. Become familiar with the instruments unique characteristics. Therefore, when set up as described above, probing the output leads for your power supply will no doubt produce a voltage reading . . . with polarity sign indicating which of the two test leads is positive. Your question suggests that you're just getting your feet wet in this electronic stuff. May I suggest a number of supplemental sources of information on the simple-ideas from which this craft is built? I recommend you acquire a copy of Electonics Fundamentals by T. Floyd. Don't get a new one. In fact get the cheapest one you can. The older editions are VERY reasonable. See: http://tinyurl.com/94g8gb Also, take a look at the first five books of a Navy electronics course that I've posted at my website. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Navy_Electroinics_Manuals/ Finally, keep talking with us here on the List. You'll be hard pressed to find a more willing and able bunch of folks to help you out. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:41 AM PST US From: "David E. Nelson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Brass is not a very good conductor As an alternative, you can order P/N 8964K5 (1/8 x 3/4 x 12 copper bar) from McMaster for $7.33 + S&H. If you're in the Austin, TX area, stop by or call Westbrook Metals (NE Austin) as they sell copper bar. Price for 1/8 x 3/4 is a little less than $5/ft but they get you with a $5 cutting fee (and no, you're not allowed to cut it - I asked). ;( If you're lucky, you might find a scrap piece. Just another choice, :) /\/elson ~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~ On Wed, 31 Dec 2008, Dwight Frye wrote: > > McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/) has copper bar that you can order > from them. I wanted a piece of 1/8" thick 1/2" wide bar, and found it as > part number 8964K291. The downside? It was 3 feet long and cost $13. *sigh* > > As you might guess, I have quite a bit left if anyone wants to buy some off > of me. :) On the other hand, it made for a really nice/neat/attractive > set of connections between my master and starter contactors, as well as to > my ammeter shunt. > > -- Dwight > > On Tue Dec 30 20:28:49 2008, Vern Little wrote : >> >> Ron, there has been some discussion on this in the past, and there were >> questions about sourcing copper bus bar material. >> >> Van's Aircraft sells bass strips for this purpose, or you can flatten a >> copper pipe and use it. >> >> I replaced the brass buss-bars on my RV-9A prior to completion after doing a >> voltage drop analysis through the system. >> >> Probably would not make a significant difference, but if you have a choice, >> use copper. >> >> Vern Little >> Vx Aviation >> www.vx-aviation.com >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 12:09 PM >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Brass is not a very good conductor >> >> >> >> >> Figured would share with the group at just how poor a conductor brass is. >> >> According to: >> http://www.kp44.org/ftp/ElectricalConductivityOfMaterials.php >> >> Brass only has ~ 28% the conductivity of copper. (They don't get as >> specific as alloy types) >> >> I need to somehow wire my port headrest (negative) to my starboard >> headrest. Shortest distance is direct between headrests but using a >> traditional wire will be unsightly and make for harder interior install. >> It needs to carry enough current to allow an occasional jump start. >> >> Since Ace hardware sells .032" thick brass 1" wide (alloy 260), I was >> going to use that and trim it to .75" wide until I researched just how >> poor a conductor brass is. Could double the thickness and double the >> width, but that would make for more weight and harder interior install. >> >> Anyway, going to use .75" wide by .032" thick copper alloy 110 and glass >> it in place with one thin layer of 3/4 oz model aeroplane cloth. >> >> Ron Parigoris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:48 AM PST US From: "Henry Trzeciakowski" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hour Meter/Oil Pressure Wiring Bob: I'm in a bit of a quandry regarding wiring my Hobbs Meter, Oil Pressure Switch and Low Oil Pressure Warning light !! I've printed out the Drawings from B & C and found one of your drawings regarding this wiring, however, before I went to order my transducer from B&C, I checked with Advanced Flight Systems to make sure that B&C's Oil Pressure transducer would work with the AFS 4500 EFIS / Engine monitor.......the answer was NO....I had to purchase theirs. They told me that their transducer had a single terminal (for their signal wire) that connects to their wiring harness: NOT a 3 terminal arrangement (S-I-P) configuration like B&C's.... SO, can you give me some suggestions on how I can wire my Hour Meter, Oil Pressure Warning Light given that there is only 1 terminal ?? Any help or suggestions appreciated. Henry ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:59 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hour Meter/Oil Pressure Wiring Henry, I'm not Bob, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn express last night - but here's what I did... I purchased a manifold that allows me to connect two senders and an oil pressure hose all together....one of the senders was for the AFS 3400 EM, the other sender is for the B&C dual-throw switch unit that allows for my Oil pressure idiot light and my hobbs meter (through a relay that starts my engine timer and the hobbs at the same time). I've had my engine running so I know it works correctly. Ralph RV6A N822AR @ N06 - getting refresher training next weekend - then first flight -----Original Message----- >From: Henry Trzeciakowski >Sent: Dec 31, 2008 4:06 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hour Meter/Oil Pressure Wiring > >Bob: > >I'm in a bit of a quandry regarding wiring my Hobbs Meter, Oil Pressure Switch and Low Oil Pressure Warning light !! I've printed out the Drawings from B & C and found one of your drawings regarding this wiring, however, before I went to order my transducer from B&C, I checked with Advanced Flight Systems to make sure that B&C's Oil Pressure transducer would work with the AFS 4500 EFIS / Engine monitor.......the answer was NO....I had to purchase theirs. > >They told me that their transducer had a single terminal (for their signal wire) that connects to their wiring harness: NOT a 3 terminal arrangement (S-I-P) configuration like B&C's.... > >SO, can you give me some suggestions on how I can wire my Hour Meter, Oil Pressure Warning Light given that there is only 1 terminal ?? > >Any help or suggestions appreciated. > >Henry ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:14 AM PST US From: "Henry Trzeciakowski" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hour Meter/Oil Pressure Wiring Ralph: What type of manifold and where did you purchase it.....Area you talking about the Manifold, I think it's the VA-168 that Van's sells? I already have this installed on my firewall..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph E. Capen" Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:33 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hour Meter/Oil Pressure Wiring > > Henry, > > I'm not Bob, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn express last night - but here's what I did... > > I purchased a manifold that allows me to connect two senders and an oil pressure hose all together....one of the senders was for the AFS 3400 EM, the other sender is for the B&C dual-throw switch unit that allows for my Oil pressure idiot light and my hobbs meter (through a relay that starts my engine timer and the hobbs at the same time). I've had my engine running so I know it works correctly. > > Ralph > RV6A N822AR @ N06 - getting refresher training next weekend - then first flight > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Henry Trzeciakowski > >Sent: Dec 31, 2008 4:06 PM > >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hour Meter/Oil Pressure Wiring > > > >Bob: > > > >I'm in a bit of a quandry regarding wiring my Hobbs Meter, Oil Pressure Switch and Low Oil Pressure Warning light !! I've printed out the Drawings from B & C and found one of your drawings regarding this wiring, however, before I went to order my transducer from B&C, I checked with Advanced Flight Systems to make sure that B&C's Oil Pressure transducer would work with the AFS 4500 EFIS / Engine monitor.......the answer was NO....I had to purchase theirs. > > > >They told me that their transducer had a single terminal (for their signal wire) that connects to their wiring harness: NOT a 3 terminal arrangement (S-I-P) configuration like B&C's.... > > > >SO, can you give me some suggestions on how I can wire my Hour Meter, Oil Pressure Warning Light given that there is only 1 terminal ?? > > > >Any help or suggestions appreciated. > > > >Henry > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:52 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hour Meter/Oil Pressure Wiring That sounds like the item...has three stubs on it, each with holes drilled on three sides. I had to put a spacer between the firewall and the manifold in order for all of the senders to fit. I have some pictures I'll send you...... -----Original Message----- >From: Henry Trzeciakowski >Sent: Dec 31, 2008 5:37 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hour Meter/Oil Pressure Wiring > > >Ralph: > >What type of manifold and where did you purchase it.....Area you talking >about the Manifold, I think it's the VA-168 that Van's sells? I already >have this installed on my firewall..... > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ralph E. Capen" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:33 AM >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hour Meter/Oil Pressure Wiring > > > >> >> Henry, >> >> I'm not Bob, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn express last night - but >here's what I did... >> >> I purchased a manifold that allows me to connect two senders and an oil >pressure hose all together....one of the senders was for the AFS 3400 EM, >the other sender is for the B&C dual-throw switch unit that allows for my >Oil pressure idiot light and my hobbs meter (through a relay that starts my >engine timer and the hobbs at the same time). I've had my engine running so >I know it works correctly. >> >> Ralph >> RV6A N822AR @ N06 - getting refresher training next weekend - then first >flight >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: Henry Trzeciakowski >> >Sent: Dec 31, 2008 4:06 PM >> >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hour Meter/Oil Pressure Wiring >> > >> >Bob: >> > >> >I'm in a bit of a quandry regarding wiring my Hobbs Meter, Oil Pressure >Switch and Low Oil Pressure Warning light !! I've printed out the Drawings >from B & C and found one of your drawings regarding this wiring, however, >before I went to order my transducer from B&C, I checked with Advanced >Flight Systems to make sure that B&C's Oil Pressure transducer would work >with the AFS 4500 EFIS / Engine monitor.......the answer was NO....I had to >purchase theirs. >> > >> >They told me that their transducer had a single terminal (for their >signal wire) that connects to their wiring harness: NOT a 3 terminal >arrangement (S-I-P) configuration like B&C's.... >> > >> >SO, can you give me some suggestions on how I can wire my Hour Meter, Oil >Pressure Warning Light given that there is only 1 terminal ?? >> > >> >Any help or suggestions appreciated. >> > >> >Henry >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:28 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Audio noise revisited At 09:03 AM 12/31/2008, you wrote: >To noise specialists > >I just concluded the installation of my >Intercom, and although I took all the >recommended measures to avoid ground loops and >noise in general, I'm still hearing 2 whines, >which after some time (many hours =85 J) of >investigation, I think I identified the causes. > >One is the Air/Fuel Ratio Monitor, because when >I disconnect its ground wire, the most high-frequency whine disappears. >Which kind of filter (resistor, capacitor, >diode, any other) can I install to eliminate this noise? >And should I put it in the power(+) red wire or >the ground(-) black wire, or is it indifferent? > >The other whine is from the COMM Radio (Garmin >SL-30), because when I switch it off, the whine disappears. >How shall I eliminate this noise? Have you tried running the intercom from a separate battery? Rather than attack two noise sources, perhaps it's easier to attack the noise propagation path for one victim. The fact that you're hearing noise from TWO sources is a strong suggestion that the victim is the "sub standard" appliance with respect to tolerating noises that are known to exist on the bus. See if the intercom cleans up with its own separate power source . . . What is the input voltage range for normal operation of your intercom? Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:31 PM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Audio noise revisited Hi Bob My Intercom is the Flightcom 403. Its power requirement (per the manual) is 12-28V 0,16Amp. My next step would be exactly powering it from a separate battery, but I still didn't do it, 'cause I had no battery available - will do it next year :-)(tomorrow) If it cleans up working from a separate power source, how should I proceed? Thanks Carlos _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: quarta-feira, 31 de Dezembro de 2008 20:04 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Audio noise revisited At 09:03 AM 12/31/2008, you wrote: To noise specialists I just concluded the installation of my Intercom, and although I took all the recommended measures to avoid ground loops and noise in general, I'm still hearing 2 whines, which after some time (many hours . :-)) of investigation, I think I identified the causes. One is the Air/Fuel Ratio Monitor, because when I disconnect its ground wire, the most high-frequency whine disappears. Which kind of filter (resistor, capacitor, diode, any other) can I install to eliminate this noise? And should I put it in the power(+) red wire or the ground(-) black wire, or is it indifferent? The other whine is from the COMM Radio (Garmin SL-30), because when I switch it off, the whine disappears. How shall I eliminate this noise? Have you tried running the intercom from a separate battery? Rather than attack two noise sources, perhaps it's easier to attack the noise propagation path for one victim. The fact that you're hearing noise from TWO sources is a strong suggestion that the victim is the "sub standard" appliance with respect to tolerating noises that are known to exist on the bus. See if the intercom cleans up with its own separate power source . . . What is the input voltage range for normal operation of your intercom? Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:50 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Audio noise revisited At 02:36 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote: >Hi Bob > >My Intercom is the Flightcom 403. Its power requirement (per the >manual) is 12-28V 0,16Amp. > >My next step would be exactly powering it from a separate battery, >but I still didn't do it, 'cause I had no battery available - will >do it next year J(tomorrow) >If it cleans up working from a separate power source, how should I proceed? Consider some form of filter for the +12V input to the intercom. I have one I can send you to try. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9006/9006_1.jpg You can choose from either a horizontal or vertical connector position. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:08 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Always Hot Battery Bus From: "Timandmeli" I'm wiring my rv-8 using bob nuckolls simple vfr day night wiring diagram. Provisions are for a always hot battery bus. He indicates the length of wire should be six inches or less. However I would like to mount this fuse block next to the main bus which is one bulkhead forward of the instrument panel requiring a 5 foot length of wire. Should I fuse protect this wire with in-line fuse or maybe a current limiter. I'm planning on one electronic ignition and one conventional magneto. Thanks Tim -------- Tim Pethel RV-8A Wiring Fuse Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222041#222041 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:51 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: CBA-II Battery Tester modifications/improvements? At 03:44 PM 12/29/2008, you wrote: > > > > >You mention it three times in your post so I want to be clear, I'm >not interested in designing a product to compete with the CBA. I >create high-power loads for >dischargers/cyclers/analyzers/testers. I don't want the ultra >price-sensitive "low" end of the market. But, if this project moved >forward, I would offer to lay out a PCB that others could use for >building the load. If enough people were interested, I'd have a >batch of boards run and offer them at my cost. Each person involved >would contribute to the project where they can, and for me, it's the hardware. Hmmm . . . understand. >I'm just bringing up other thoughts about the possible feature set >for a very good DIY project. You want just raw data and feel it >offers the most and that graphics offer little, if nothing, compared >to box-scored raw data. But many users of battery analyzers >disagree. I have to keep going back to the CBA and its popularity. >A lot of people don't care what the actual number is. They can look >at a graph of a test involving several cells or packs and see >instantly which lasted the longest, or had the highest >voltage-under-load, for that test. Whether the "best-performing" >battery had a capacity of 10.02Ah or 10.10Ah, they wouldn't >care. Which battery that they can afford (or physically fit, etc,) >came out on "top". No need to check or compare actual numbers. agreed . . . >No marketing effort, no product development. This is an open-source >DIY project. You mentioned the use of a PIC earlier and I was >alluding to that. If that's no longer an idea you're interested in >seeing possibly be used for this DIY project, then the Weeder >modules (or other equivalent) are a quicker way to get going. You >also mentioned a friend who might possibly, maybe, be interested in >taking on the PC software development. No $10K to develop something >great that everyone could use. I wasn't suggesting that anyone would have to cough up $10K . . . just putting some perspective on the market value potential for returns on the effort. . . it helps sort priorities. >A graph doesn't tell you anything a number doesn't. But, the right >graph can make understanding various numbers, groups of numbers, and >their relationships, easier to understand. Edward Tufte's books so >wonderfully illustrate that. > >What's great about this project is that everyone can get exactly >what they want. One person can create a bare-bones, tiny-footprint, >data uploading and storage program. Another person can create a >graphics-analysis package to show tons of data in easy to read >graphs. One person could develop hardware that integrated existing >products, another could create a custom PIC board. The Weeder modules (or something similar) could be used to implement a host of battery tests without laying out a single board. An analog output board could drive a load-FET array of any size. An analog input board could watch battery voltage and the output from some handy current sensor. Perhaps one of these http://www.amploc.com/PRO%20Series.pdf So with a few grafted on components to the two Weeder modules, you'd be ready to tackle the application software in any language of choice. >I think a really important part of al of this would be to create a >set of standards for comms between the PC software and the boards, >and for a data storage format. This would allow for easy >"black-box" development of both the hardware and the >software. Either could have any set of features but all would be >compatible with each other. EVERYONE can read column or comma delimited data files. I think I'd split the software task into two areas. (a) test management and data storage with box-score readouts and (b) data presentation package with graphics abilities, perhaps some averaging of multiple data on same batteries, graphics, etc. >And the IR measurements feature is a great idea. There are so many >"standards" and methods for measuring IR that it would be great to >see the hardware/software eventually support a user-created IR test >(timing, current, etc.). Well, I've got the modules in a bin out in the shop. I've also got the core software needed to wake up and talk to the modules. I'm going to be out of town all next week but I'll dig up the hardware when I get back and see if it can be stroked back to life. It's been a couple of years since I had this stuff working. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:22 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Always Hot Battery Bus At 03:48 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote: > > >I'm wiring my rv-8 using bob nuckolls simple vfr day night wiring >diagram. Provisions are for a always hot battery bus. He indicates >the length of wire should be six inches or less. However I would >like to mount this fuse block next to the main bus which is one >bulkhead forward of the instrument panel requiring a 5 foot length >of wire. Should I fuse protect this wire with in-line fuse or maybe >a current limiter. I'm planning on one electronic ignition and one >conventional magneto. Thanks Tim The 6" rule including the maximum size of fuse (7A) for the hot-battery bus is a convention adopted for post crash fire risk reduction. It's not possible to offer advice based on any analysis of your proposed changes. If you mount it that far away from the battery, you've got an always hot feeder rated for considerable current capability. This is not done in the certified world. I would recommend you leave the battery bus fuse block co-located with the battery contactor and run individual feeders from fuses of no more than 7A from that location. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:58 PM PST US From: "Sam Hoskins" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: CBA-II Battery Tester modifications/improvements? So, bringing this down to earth for the rest of us... If I want to do annual capacity checking of my $25 ah battery$, in an aircraft that requires 15-20 amps to stay afloat, will the CBA II give me the information I need? Say, if I run it at 65W to save the device? Or would it be better to find an analyzer that ran at 200+ watts? BTW, Happy New Year! Sam Hoskins www.samhoskins.blogspot.com On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > >> I think that's an idea worth exploring! >> I've developed a 500W (400W continuous) electronic load that can be used >> to extend the capabilities of any analyzer or discharger ( >> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=938266) but there's a >> real need for "host" software and a load in the power range of the CBA, >> perhaps 100W-200W. This would be perfect for most DIY'ers and could easily >> be paralleled for higher power handling. >> >> The software would have to be very graphics-capable as the plotting and >> graphing features would be extremely important. I'd love to see it not >> require a huge installation just to run. But, the options may be limited. >> > > I'm not so sure about the graphics. Yes, they do make for an > effective display of data . . . and comparison of similar > batteries . . . > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/AA_Bat_Test.pdf > > The data for this article was taken with a one-sample-per-second > data acquisition module that produces columnar data easily > imported into graphics applications like autocad and excel. > For the purpose of writing articles, the graphics offered by > WestMountainRadio are pretty . . . > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/9vBatteryTests.jpg > > but from an engineering perspective, a numerical value for > energy delivered under the prescribed test conditions is > quite sufficient. The results of dynamic tests for evaluating > battery source impedance could be offered out as numerical > values. > > I did a flight test program for Raytheon a few years > back where the Weeder Technology modules proved quite > useful. > > http://www.weedtech.com/ > > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Test_Equipment/Data_Acquisition/Weedtech_DAS_2.jpg > > As a first pass for crafting a more robust version of > the CBA-II, a Weeder analog input module for $69 and > an analog output module for $99 would offer 95% of > the hardware to implement the task. Very simple programs > in any language of choice could be crafted to orchestrate > the testing, gathering of data values and presentation > of end-point results with no graphics capabilities > at all. > > One could also store individual data points on the > hard drive in a format easily imported to Excel. > > The CBA software has a nice light footprint though. An executable, help >> file, settings file, three DLLs for USB comms and forms handling. It may >> have some registry keys or other files in public directories but it doesn't >> seem to require the NET framework. MileHighWings' eFlightWatt logger had a >> single executable file that did everything, no installation needed. >> Something like this for an open source tester would be terrific. >> > > Sure. And I wouldn't discourage any interested parties > from turning their vision into really nifty applications > by exercising their programming skills. From the hands-on > engineering perspective, my personal needs for battery > testing can be easily addressed with more rudimentary > software. > > In fact, I still keep 20 year old copies of > Turbo-Basic that outputs compiled .exe files > for talking/listening to the Weeder modules. > I have a supply of these guys on the shelf from > various programs over the years. They still > offer the hammer-n-nails approach to crafting > a quick and useful test-setup. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:21 PM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Always Hot Battery Bus Long hot wires bother me as well. However in the world of off road truck racing there is no room for a battery located near the panel or engine. We frequently use 10'+ #2 always hot unprotected leads from 2 big AH batteries located in the back where the weight does some good. Its very rare to have any issues after a major crash that involves shorted battery leads. You better believe the leads are carefully routed and protected. Typically protected with the convoluted split plastic stuff. Sure it burns but it is good for abrasion protection and cheap. The best lead wire is welding wire with double elastomer insulation. Pretty durable. I cannot source the stuff for you all but a day of shopping at the weld & battery shops will turn up a good product. I use a west marine source 4 position switch to turn the power off if need be and for storage to reduce the drain from all the parasite electronics. Yes the switch is where the driver can reach it and it is a long ways from the batts. The bottom line is there are many more high risk things in a plane or a race truck to be concerned about than a long hot batt lead. Regards, Paul =============== At 03:39 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote: > > >At 03:48 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote: >> >> >>I'm wiring my rv-8 using bob nuckolls simple vfr day night wiring >>diagram. Provisions are for a always hot battery bus. He >>indicates the length of wire should be six inches or less. However >>I would like to mount this fuse block next to the main bus which is >>one bulkhead forward of the instrument panel requiring a 5 foot >>length of wire. Should I fuse protect this wire with in-line fuse >>or maybe a current limiter. I'm planning on one electronic >>ignition and one conventional magneto. Thanks Tim > > The 6" rule including the maximum size of fuse (7A) > for the hot-battery bus is a convention adopted for > post crash fire risk reduction. It's not possible > to offer advice based on any analysis of your > proposed changes. If you mount it that far away > from the battery, you've got an always hot feeder > rated for considerable current capability. This > is not done in the certified world. I would > recommend you leave the battery bus fuse block > co-located with the battery contactor and > run individual feeders from fuses of no more > than 7A from that location. > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:54 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: CBA-II Battery Tester modifications/improvements? From: "CamLight" nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > I wasn't suggesting that anyone would have to > cough up $10K . . . just putting some perspective > on the market value potential for returns on the > effort. . . it helps sort priorities. > Ahh...agreed. nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > The Weeder modules (or something similar) could be > used to implement a host of battery tests without > laying out a single board. An analog output board > could drive a load-FET array of any size. An analog > input board could watch battery voltage and the output > from some handy current sensor. Perhaps one of these > > http://www.amploc.com/PRO%20Series.pdf > > So with a few grafted on components to the two > Weeder modules, you'd be ready to tackle the > application software in any language of choice. > I have some samples of the 25A version of that and the 100A versions of the Allegro sensors: http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Part_Numbers/0755/index.asp I'd be happy to cobble up a small board to output to your Weeders. nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > EVERYONE can read column or comma delimited data > files. I think I'd split the software task into two > areas. (a) test management and data storage with > box-score readouts and (b) data presentation package > with graphics abilities, perhaps some averaging of > multiple data on same batteries, graphics, etc. > Agreed! nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > Well, I've got the modules in a bin out in the > shop. I've also got the core software needed to > wake up and talk to the modules. I'm going to > be out of town all next week but I'll dig up > the hardware when I get back and see if it > can be stroked back to life. It's been a couple > of years since I had this stuff working. > > Bob . . . Sounds terrific. In the mean time, I'll dig out the current sensors I have and look into working up a simple interface to the Weeders. If you already have something that will work well, no problem. I also have some assorted MOSFETs, heat sinks and op-amps around to put together a basic load to use for testing to concept. We can talk more when you're back. My best wishes for a Healthy & Happy New Year to everyone! -------- John M. 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