Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:28 AM - Re: System recommendations (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 08:22 AM - Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light? (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US)
3. 09:23 AM - Re: Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light? ()
4. 09:40 AM - Re: SD-8 self excitation ()
5. 10:12 AM - Re: Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light? (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US)
6. 02:08 PM - Re: Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light? ()
7. 05:57 PM - Re: System recommendations (jetech)
8. 08:39 PM - D-Sub connectors (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: System recommendations |
At 09:15 PM 1/8/2009, you wrote:
>
>I am looking at the Z-11 and Z-13 schematics and would like some
>opinions on which route to take.
>
>The plane is a PA-22, we would like to replace the vacuum driven
>horizon and compass along with the airspeed, T&B, rate of climb and
>altimeter with a Aspen PFD.
>
>We will add a GPS, transponder, and comm and retain the stock
>mechanical engine instruments, mags, mag switch and push to start.
>
>The generator will be replaced with a Plane Power SAL12-70
>alternator and R1224 regulator. The starter will be replaced with a
>Skytec starter.
>
>The plane will be VFR but it would be nice to have the voltmeter,
>GPS, transponder, comm and maybe the PFD (even though it has an
>internal backup battery) on an E-bus.
>
>The Z-11 looks a little more practical for this application. Am I
>missing anything if I use the Z-11 and substitute the Plane Power
>Alternator/regulator circuit and use the Z-13 push to start?
Yes. But as along as you don't plan to have a vacuum
pump on the engine, you might consider at least pre-wiring
for the SD-8 alternator even if it's not installed immediately.
This would make it easy to add later if you so desire.
Where is the battery located in this aircraft? Have
you started a list of electro-whizzies with some
initial thoughts as to which bus those devices get
power. Get copies of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Blank_Form.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Beeline%20load_analysis.xls
and start organizing your ideas according to bus
structures. You don't need to have all the numbers
for the boxes just yet. Just start the documents and
have them to show that good tools and rationale planning
are part of your project planning.
Exactly what you choose to install for accessories
has importance to us only if somebody on the list has
a particular tid-bit of information germane to that
equipment item. The things we can help with go to architecture,
understanding and meeting design goals, and swapping detail
features between the Z-figures (like the starter switch).
I presume this aircraft is still under the jurisdiction
of those who know more about airplanes than we do.
A key task before you is to convince them that what you
propose is (safe/legal/sane/holy-watered) as determined
by someone who sits at a desk and will never see
your airplane. Your Form 337 documentation can begin
with citing observance of every pertinent paragraph
out of AC43-13 (bureaucrats adore hearing litanies
they wrote recited back to them). Beyond that, you'll
need a narrative that describes the DIFFERENCES between
what you propose and what was originally installed
in words that convinces them that agreeing with you
doesn't put their pension at risk.
Be aware that you may be asked to do a max load,
hot day Vy climb study on your alternator as installed
with respect to cooling. If you'd like to use a REAL
battery as opposed to some $high$ PMA'd battery,
there will be a round of document sparing there
too.
Finally, your reviewers will have a great deal more
confidence in their decision if the AI you're working
with has a good working relationship, some past
experience in vintage upgrades, and can explain things
to the reviewers in words they're convinced
they should understand. Having a professional looking
wire book, an emergency procedures and instructions
for continued airworthiness document will put icing
on your document package.
It may be that somebody somewhere has pulled off
a similar upgrade to a venerable bird without so
much fuss. Don't downgrade your efforts to match
any such success story. Former 337 activities
do constitute approved documents upon which
future efforts can rely. However, there are plenty of
individuals within any governing body who may
find past achievements wanting for proper
respect and demeanor and will require YOU
to make up for it.
I'm not suggesting that everyone within the FAA
is running between blinders and/or not qualified
at their jobs. But it only takes ONE detractor
of MANY supporters to make your life difficult/
impossible.
Task 1. Put your team together. Find an AI,
write up a narrative of what you want to do
to the airplane. Append your load analysis
sheets to the back. Include a list of resources
you will tap for support/consulting. This list
should include AC43-13, Part 23, and Part 91.
It probably wouldn't hurt to add the AeroElectric
Connection and any other learned texts on
the arts and crafts in your bibliography.
I can provide a resume to support any citations
you may make to my work.
Now have your AI go to the cognizant offices
of the FAA and build the regulatory side of
your team. Get to know everybody on your team
on a first name basis. Try to build a relationship
that encourages friendly, open-channel communications
so that you don't risk getting told, "No, you'll
have to rip that out and do it over/different".
I'd be pleased to help you craft the wire book
and supporting documents. You have an opportunity
to do TWO very important things here:
(1) Upgrade this venerable old airplane to
YOUR design goals that do not compromise
utility and safety and . . .
(2) Craft a 337 package that is so far above
anything done in the past that YOUR
project becomes the gold standard for
others who have dreams for their own
vintage aircraft. Your 337 package can
become the cited reference as well as
an example of format and content that will
ease the way for those who come after
you.
If the project is successful, I'd encourage
you to deposit the 337 package in any and
all cooperating archives including the Short
Wing Piper Club. AeroElectric.com would
be pleased to be the first.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light? |
Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light? :
http://www.kestrobes.com/beacon.htm#LL1
What's your observation / opinion?
How did you heat sink the hockey puck?
Do you have another cover, if so what did you do for cover?
Specific I am interested in using on our Europa XS Monowheel.
( I could almost envision seeing these LEDs in the Airmaster spinner with
some angled for taxi and some landing, sure you are wasting some light,
but how kool! Airmaster are you listening?? )
Ron Parigoris
Message 3
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| Subject: | Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light? |
Ron,
I have not purchased this yet, but I will in the next two months. They
have great products and I use them all. I am working on a Lancair Legacy
and I intend to do one of the following with the hockey puck. What makes
you think you need to heat sink this light? Surely not the 1.3 amps it's
drawing? Do you find it getting hot?
1. Mold a fiberglass mount around the puck and fasten it to the right
intake on the inside of the cowling inlet. Easy enough to do for us
fiberglass folks. That will keep it cool.
2. Take a 3" PVC pipe and do what everyone else does, punch a hole in
the front of the cowling and stick it inside.
3. Yes, installing it in the spinner would be neat, but I think it would
eventually fail from the abuse.
Do Not Archive
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 11:15 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition
light?
Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light? :
http://www.kestrobes.com/beacon.htm#LL1
What's your observation / opinion?
How did you heat sink the hockey puck?
Do you have another cover, if so what did you do for cover?
Specific I am interested in using on our Europa XS Monowheel.
( I could almost envision seeing these LEDs in the Airmaster spinner
with
some angled for taxi and some landing, sure you are wasting some light,
but how kool! Airmaster are you listening?? )
Ron Parigoris
Message 4
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| Subject: | SD-8 self excitation |
Etienne,
First, thanks for doing the test. That gives me more confidence building
an electrically dependent setup using (Z-13) with just one battery. If
I'm able to switch over to the SD-8 before I let the battery get away,
things should begin to look up.
An aside - I am surprised at how many times I have now seen people jump
start electrically dependent engines (dead battery) and rollup for
take-off. There is an assumption in the winter that dead batteries are
perhaps the norm and their actual condition is merely a factor of the
cold weather.
If you lose the alternator shortly after take-off and have just
jump-started the airplane 10 minutes before, how much time do you have?
For me, not a good gamble.
Again, as you have found the reliability of this design is taking off
knowing the condition of your battery and with some comfort that you
have been diligent in its maintenance.
Good Building,
Glenn
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Etienne Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 self excitation
<etienne.phillips@gmail.com>
Sorry, was not on the planet for a month, and missed this!
After my own investigation, it seems as though the recently produced
regulators are still in need of the work around. I started the
engine, and engaged the alternator with the battery offline, and
nothing happened. Engaged the battery momentarily, and the alternator
supplied the whole electrical system with a sweet 14V from that point
on, until the engine was stopped. Again, once the engine was started
again the alternator circuit didn't supply power until the battery
gave it a jolt.
Just to make sure, once the alternator is delivering power, I can
remove the battery from the circuit and it continues delivering power
quite happily. It's only a once-off initialisation that's needed to
get the regulator up and running...
Thanks
Etienne
On 16 Dec 2008, at 4:00 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 12:02 PM 12/15/2008, you wrote:
>> <john@morgensen.com>
>>
>> Any response?
>
> Not that I've heard. I don't think B&C has a circuit
> designer any more. If they were interested in the
> upgrade I think they would have to farm it out.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light? |
Hi Glen
"What makes you think you need to heat sink this light? Surely not the 1.3
amps it's drawing?"
Exactly it's the 1300mA draw!
I didn't purchase yet.
I did just today talk to the Mfg. and he said he recommends it be sunk to
at least 60 square inches of aluminium. He said if it is in airstream it
would probably sink enough, but if you left on in a hangar for 5 to 10
minutes you would damage.
He said he has been working on a design for 3 years, his CNC aluminium
housing works well to extract heat from the LEDs, but ya gotta get the
heat out of the housing.
Ron Parigoris
I am thinking to mount on one of my outrigger fairing, just make at least
the front out of aluminium with a 1/16" polycarbinate cover. As far as I
am concerned, aluminium and fiberglass is a composite!
Message 6
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| Subject: | Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light? |
Yikes,
Thanks Ron, it sounds like mounting it in the cowling inlet would be one
way to go. With the Legacy you can't have little things sticking out or
people talk funny about your airplane :) You could probably mount it in
the cowl if you did a scat tube into the housing and protected the tube
mount on cowling itself.
I'll have to come up with a creative way to protect the mounting base
such that excess heat does not pass through the housing mount to the
fiberglass. I normally use the Click-Bond stud mounts for stuff like
this. If I can find a way to insulate the stud from the housing mount,
that should do it. Somewhere in industry there should exist insulated
mounts for stuff like this.
gl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 1:05 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition
light?
Hi Glen
"What makes you think you need to heat sink this light? Surely not the
1.3
amps it's drawing?"
Exactly it's the 1300mA draw!
I didn't purchase yet.
I did just today talk to the Mfg. and he said he recommends it be sunk
to
at least 60 square inches of aluminium. He said if it is in airstream it
would probably sink enough, but if you left on in a hangar for 5 to 10
minutes you would damage.
He said he has been working on a design for 3 years, his CNC aluminium
housing works well to extract heat from the LEDs, but ya gotta get the
heat out of the housing.
Ron Parigoris
I am thinking to mount on one of my outrigger fairing, just make at
least
the front out of aluminium with a 1/16" polycarbinate cover. As far as I
am concerned, aluminium and fiberglass is a composite!
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: System recommendations |
Bob
I will look into the SD-8, It would be easy to pre-wire for it.
The battery is located under the right front seat, it has local ground with a short
lead. There is a electrical box under the front of the left seat that contains
the start relay, some fuses and the push to start.
Electro-whizzies, Well here is what I have so far,
AeroElectric dimmer
SSF-1 wig-wag
LED map lights
Some type of panel lighting
Under the wing light
Aft cabin lighting
Intercom
PFD
GPS
Comm
X-ponder
Alt warning lgt
Upgraded ammeter
As an A&P I haven't been very involved with electrical system design, I did design
a system for a Warner Sporster but I wish I had found your site sooner, I
think I would have done a better job.
I would like to learn the correct approach to designing a system so I am here to
learn.
As far as design goals, This is our company airplane, It will be used to advertise
our restoration abilities. Our main goal is to update it to current standards
with the main focus being the interior and electrical system.
This model didn't have much of an electrical system, it is pretty basic and I don't
think I can add much more to it unless I convert the mechanical engine instruments
to electrical. I had a hard time selling the idea of a PFD to my partner
so he probably wont let me do that.
Can you elaborate on the batter issue? It would be great to get rid of the PMA'd
battery.
I would like to make some real substantial alterations to the plane, something
that hasn't been done yet. Two areas that could benefit are the combination nav
lgt/dimmer switch and the fuel system with the aux fuel tank.
The nav light can be fixed with a separate switch and dimmer. The fuel system can
be fixed somewhat with Eddie Trimmers fuel system STC but it would be even
better if the fuel transfer from the aux tank to the right wing tank was automatic
without pilot intervention.
Our company is a member of the short wing piper club and we have every intention
of posting our paperwork there and anywhere else that has interest.
I welcome your help and have already talked with a local EAA chapter about hosting
you for a weekend.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223796#223796
Message 8
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| Subject: | D-Sub connectors |
I think I remember reading that some use an addition to the screws to hold
together D-Sub connectors?
Is ther additional security that is
recommended?
Ron Parigoris
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