Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:24 AM - Re: D-Sub connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 07:30 AM - Switch Combinations ()
3. 07:42 AM - Re: D-Sub connectors (SteinAir, Inc.)
4. 08:00 AM - Re: Switch Combinations (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
5. 08:00 AM - Re: D-Sub connectors (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
6. 08:25 AM - Re: Switch Combinations (B Tomm)
7. 08:40 AM - Re: D-Sub connectors (rampil)
8. 08:44 AM - [Fw: Re: Switch Combinations] (Ed Holyoke)
9. 09:06 AM - Re: [Fw: Re: Switch Combinations] (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
10. 09:19 AM - Re: Switch Combinations (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: D-Sub connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 09:50 AM - Re: Switch Combinations ()
13. 10:48 AM - Infinity Stick Grip switch grounding? (Allen Fulmer)
14. 11:16 AM - Re: Infinity Stick Grip switch grounding? (Carlos Trigo)
15. 11:34 AM - Re: D-Sub connectors (rampil)
16. 01:31 PM - Re: Infinity Stick Grip switch grounding? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 01:39 PM - Re: Re: D-Sub connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 02:39 PM - Internally Regulated Alternators and Z-24 ()
19. 04:32 PM - Re: Internally Regulated Alternators and Z-24 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 06:48 PM - Re: Re: D-Sub connectors (Chris)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: D-Sub connectors |
At 11:53 PM 1/11/2009, you wrote:
>On 12 Jan 2009, at 4:21 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>>At 07:19 PM 1/10/2009, you wrote:
>>>I have another D-Sub question... are the pin types with the u
>>>shaped cross section for crimping the wire and another section for
>>>crimping the wire ok to use - or is the solid pin type the norm?
>>>Thanks
>>>Chris Lucas
>>>RV-10
>>
>> The sheet metal pins are very widely used throughout
>> the electronics industry but are tricky to put on with
>> consistency using el-cheeso hand-tools. Further, they're
>> not the same grade of interconnect as the mil-spec style.
>> I quit using the sheet metal pins here years ago
>> and I recommend their use.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>I used the cheap stuff for my wiring project, due to the extra cost
>and time it would have taken to get hold of the machined pins
>(living on the dark continent puts access to anything but the cheap
>stuff on the other side of the planet, on the other side of a very
>large shipping fee, and on the other side of a very bad exchange
>rate). They're not critical to the correct operation of my
>electrical system, so continued to hack my way through. Many broken
>pins, snapped wires and sockets with stuck pins later, I finished
>and got everything working. But when time allows, I'm going to redo
>it all (using the CORRECT equipment and parts), because although it
>works for now, I don't think it'll last more than a couple of years
>in the high-vibration environment.
>
>Another frustration I had was once everything was crimped and all
>the pins were pushed into the sockets, the damned things wouldn't
>fit together! There is so much play within the support for the
>female pins, that it allows them to move out of alignment with their
>male counterparts.
>
>So don't waste your time and effort, do it right first time. The
>frustration of getting a crimp right using cheap tools and parts
>alone is enough to cover the outlay for the good stuff!
>
>Etienne
What you're describing is a case study in cost of ownership.
A thought process I've tried to inject into many development
programs over the years with limited but gratifying success.
MOST of my contemporaries were not beneficiaries of the
education one gets when as the ONLY electro-wiennie in the
building, I tracked a product from conception all the way
through prototype, meeting requirements milestones, customer
approval, qualification, procurement, manufacturing, quality
assurance, shipping, customer service and warranty.
Without this broad perspective, it's difficult to see how
the saving of a few dollars now can translate into greater
expenditures when the end-to-end costs of the product
are considered.
Are there no in-country electronics distributors that
offer low cost tools like:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/rct-3.jpg
Surely many fellow citizens could benefit by a
local business adding this product to their
catalog. The machined pins can be breathtakingly
priced in this country. Allied Electronics prices
them at 52 cents each in their catalog and they
drop only to 30 cents or so in 500 lots. My
distributor will sell me a bag of 5,000 pins for
about 15 cents each. Your local suppliers could
offer these pins at pretty attractive prices
if they shopped around a bit for sources.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
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Subject: | Switch Combinations |
I am using Z13/8 with a dual EI (Lightspeed) setup. By default I have
two ignition switches for L/R or front and back if you prefer. Since I
am not using a keyway switch I am wondering if there is a way to wire a
single switch to manage both EI's? My design goal is to eliminate
additional switches where they can otherwise be combined.
Glenn
Message 3
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Subject: | D-Sub connectors |
Ditto...we won't use the stamped pins here either and we go through
somewhere between 20,000 and 50,000 pins per month! There are a variety of
reasons why not to use them, and only a very few that I can think of to use
them (mainly that you can run them through a high speed automated
crimper)...other than that, as long as you have to crimp them by hand, the
machined pins are far easier.
Cheers,
Stein
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:22 PM
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D-Sub connectors
The sheet metal pins are very widely used throughout
the electronics industry but are tricky to put on with
consistency using el-cheeso hand-tools. Further, they're
not the same grade of interconnect as the mil-spec style.
I quit using the sheet metal pins here years ago
and I recommend their use.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 4
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Subject: | Switch Combinations |
Maybe but why would you want to use a single switch..You now have a critica
l component that if it fails your engine will quit. I know that as the Plea
d is a ground lead that this is unlikely (assuming the Lightspeed switches
the same way a mag does) but even so why do it for the sake of another swit
ch?
FWIW.
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:28 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch Combinations
I am using Z13/8 with a dual EI (Lightspeed) setup. By default I have two i
gnition switches for L/R or front and back if you prefer. Since I am not us
ing a keyway switch I am wondering if there is a way to wire a single switc
h to manage both EI's? My design goal is to eliminate additional switches w
here they can otherwise be combined.
Glenn
Message 5
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Subject: | D-Sub connectors |
20 to 50k pins a month?..Wow!...
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteinAir, Inc.
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:42 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: D-Sub connectors
Ditto...we won't use the stamped pins here either and we go through somewhe
re between 20,000 and 50,000 pins per month! There are a variety of reason
s why not to use them, and only a very few that I can think of to use them
(mainly that you can run them through a high speed automated crimper)...oth
er than that, as long as you have to crimp them by hand, the machined pins
are far easier.
Cheers,
Stein
Message 6
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Subject: | Switch Combinations |
Glenn, Frank beat me to it. Keep your ignitions systems separate as much
as possible.
Bevan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
longg@pjm.com
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:28 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch Combinations
I am using Z13/8 with a dual EI (Lightspeed) setup. By default I have two
ignition switches for L/R or front and back if you prefer. Since I am not
using a keyway switch I am wondering if there is a way to wire a single
switch to manage both EI's? My design goal is to eliminate additional
switches where they can otherwise be combined.
Glenn
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: D-Sub connectors |
One caveat about the machined (not stamped sheet metal) pins
is that they are not interchangeable! Some submini D connector
contacts will not fir the shell of other manufacturers. Also, different
connectors pins for different wire size, i.e., 22 ga vs. 18ga.
At least for the larger circular connector series from AMP or Amphenol,
the pins are color coded with tiny bands. Of course the companies
don't make it easy to discover the color code meanings! I've never
seen a collated chart, even from a single manufacturer. If any has
such a chart, I would love to see it.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224241#224241
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Switch Combinations] |
Lightspeed EIs wire opposite the way magnetos do. It wires like most
other electrical devices, ie: the switch breaks the 12v (+) side. Closed
is on. If the switch fails to close, no spark.
With a magneto, open is on. Closed grounds out the primary coil so it
won't produce a spark out of the secondary coil. If the switch fails to
close, the mag is hot even after being turned off. Danger Will Robinson.
Be careful around the prop.
Switch, wiring or fuse failures take out an electronic ignition (P-mag
may be different). Switch or wire failures generally take out the
ability to turn off a magneto. The failure modes of each should be
considered carefully and designed for. I agree with Frank. It's a bad
idea to have a setup where a failure of one switch would take out both
ignitions. I don't like the key turn mag/start switches for that reason.
I've seen several of them not work right, one right out of the box.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
> Maybe but why would you want to use a single switch..You now have a
> critical component that if it fails your engine will quit. I know that
> as the Plead is a ground lead that this is unlikely (assuming the
> Lightspeed switches the same way a mag does) but even so why do it for
> the sake of another switch?
>
> FWIW.
>
> Frank
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *longg@pjm.com
> *Sent:* Monday, January 12, 2009 7:28 AM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Switch Combinations
>
> I am using Z13/8 with a dual EI (Lightspeed) setup. By default I have
> two ignition switches for L/R or front and back if you prefer. Since I
> am not using a keyway switch I am wondering if there is a way to wire
> a single switch to manage both EI's? My design goal is to eliminate
> additional switches where they can otherwise be combined.
>
>
>
>
>
> Glenn
>
> *
>
> ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ics.com
> .matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
> *
>
>
> *
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Switch Combinations] |
Well in that case as the Lightspeed switch the hot connection I would sugge
st combinging the switches is not quite suicidal but close!
Switch goes open circuit (or intermittent) and your engine will quit...this
is a very bad idea..Almost as bad as having a single fuse serving both ign
itions..Don't do it!
Both ignitions must be wired completely seperate...wiring, fuses, switches.
Incidently the E/Pmags are wired like a regular mag, but I still switch the
m seperate.
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 8:43 AM
Subject: [Fwd: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch Combinations]
Lightspeed EIs wire opposite the way magnetos do. It wires like most other
electrical devices, ie: the switch breaks the 12v (+) side. Closed is on. I
f the switch fails to close, no spark.
With a magneto, open is on. Closed grounds out the primary coil so it won't
produce a spark out of the secondary coil. If the switch fails to close, t
he mag is hot even after being turned off. Danger Will Robinson. Be careful
around the prop.
Switch, wiring or fuse failures take out an electronic ignition (P-mag may
be different). Switch or wire failures generally take out the ability to tu
rn off a magneto. The failure modes of each should be considered carefully
and designed for. I agree with Frank. It's a bad idea to have a setup where
a failure of one switch would take out both ignitions. I don't like the ke
y turn mag/start switches for that reason. I've seen several of them not wo
rk right, one right out of the box.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
Maybe but why would you want to use a single switch..You now have a critica
l component that if it fails your engine will quit. I know that as the Plea
d is a ground lead that this is unlikely (assuming the Lightspeed switches
the same way a mag does) but even so why do it for the sake of another swit
ch?
FWIW.
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-aeroelectri
c-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matroni
cs.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com<mailto:longg@pjm.com>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:28 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch Combinations
I am using Z13/8 with a dual EI (Lightspeed) setup. By default I have two i
gnition switches for L/R or front and back if you prefer. Since I am not us
ing a keyway switch I am wondering if there is a way to wire a single switc
h to manage both EI's? My design goal is to eliminate additional switches w
here they can otherwise be combined.
Glenn
ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
ics.com
.matronics.com/contribution
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Switch Combinations |
At 09:27 AM 1/12/2009, you wrote:
>I am using Z13/8 with a dual EI (Lightspeed) setup. By default I
>have two ignition switches for L/R or front and back if you prefer.
>Since I am not using a keyway switch I am wondering if there is a
>way to wire a single switch to manage both EI's? My design goal is
>to eliminate additional switches where they can otherwise be combined.
Dual ignition offers true redundancy only
if they are completely independent of each
other. They should share a minimum amount
of hardware . . . especially switches.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: D-Sub connectors |
At 10:39 AM 1/12/2009, you wrote:
>
>One caveat about the machined (not stamped sheet metal) pins
>is that they are not interchangeable! Some submini D connector
>contacts will not fir the shell of other manufacturers. Also, different
>connectors pins for different wire size, i.e., 22 ga vs. 18ga.
>At least for the larger circular connector series from AMP or Amphenol,
>the pins are color coded with tiny bands. Of course the companies
>don't make it easy to discover the color code meanings! I've never
>seen a collated chart, even from a single manufacturer. If any has
>such a chart, I would love to see it.
It's not a big secret. Most pins offered for military
spec'ed connectors are in the Mil-C-39029 family of devices.
In particular, the 20AWG standard density d-sub pins are
39029/64-369. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_20AWG_Pin.jpg
similarly, sockets are 39029/63-368
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_20AWG_Socket.jpg
Note that in both cases, the color banding on the
pin barrel uses the legacy electronic components color
code convention shown below.
Emacs!
In the case of the d-sub pins, the color bands
denote the last digits after the dash in the
full part number.
I'm aware of no cross-reference list that will
let you back into the application of some stray
pin. However, if you go to a particular connector's
specifications, the pins for each hole along with
the wire-gage range for that pin will be defined.
I'm aware of no ambiguity in 20 or 22AWG d-sub
pins for marking or application. If you have a
pin that doesn't fit the hole in a D-sub of
one brand, then it's not a d-sub pin for any
brand.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 12
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Subject: | Switch Combinations |
Thanks to all for your comments. Good points, they will remain separate.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch Combinations
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 09:27 AM 1/12/2009, you wrote:
>I am using Z13/8 with a dual EI (Lightspeed) setup. By default I
>have two ignition switches for L/R or front and back if you prefer.
>Since I am not using a keyway switch I am wondering if there is a
>way to wire a single switch to manage both EI's? My design goal is
>to eliminate additional switches where they can otherwise be combined.
Dual ignition offers true redundancy only
if they are completely independent of each
other. They should share a minimum amount
of hardware . . . especially switches.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 13
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Subject: | Infinity Stick Grip switch grounding? |
Many of the push button and/or toggle switches on the Infinity grips have
two wires and most functions they control simply require a connection to a
ground when activated (like PushToTalk, AP disconnect, Freq swap, etc.).
Plus the trim switch (coolie hat) has one connection labeled common or
ground.
My question is, as a general rule, would it be better to connect those
switches (needing a ground) to the airframe (under the seat somewhere in
this case) or carry a single ground wire back to the forest of tabs (or
avionics ground "bus")?
Does it matter?
Thanks,
Allen Fulmer
RV7 Wiring/Plumbing
Eggenfellner Subaru E6T on firewall
N808AF reserved
Alexander City, AL
256-329-2001
Message 14
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Subject: | Infinity Stick Grip switch grounding? |
Hi Allen
(From another Subbie...)
I am not an EE or a specialist, but I did connect all grip ground wires to
one ground bus under the seat, and then carried a single ground from that
bus to the firewall forest of tabs.
It works flawlessly, but I did some tests grounding each of the wires to the
airframe locally and worked good as well. I believe the only one that can
cause a ground loop problem would be the ground wire from the PTT.
Carlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allen Fulmer
> Sent: segunda-feira, 12 de Janeiro de 2009 18:46
> To: Aeroelectric-List (E-mail)
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Infinity Stick Grip switch grounding?
>
<afulmer@charter.net>
>
> Many of the push button and/or toggle switches on the Infinity grips have
> two wires and most functions they control simply require a connection to a
> ground when activated (like PushToTalk, AP disconnect, Freq swap, etc.).
> Plus the trim switch (coolie hat) has one connection labeled common or
> ground.
>
> My question is, as a general rule, would it be better to connect those
> switches (needing a ground) to the airframe (under the seat somewhere in
> this case) or carry a single ground wire back to the forest of tabs (or
> avionics ground "bus")?
>
> Does it matter?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Allen Fulmer
> RV7 Wiring/Plumbing
> Eggenfellner Subaru E6T on firewall
> N808AF reserved
> Alexander City, AL
> 256-329-2001
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: D-Sub connectors |
See,
That's why we post here Bob, you knew that the the color bands
index to the mil-spec part, whereas when I order from Arrow or
Jameco, or Newark, I only paid attention to the Amp catalog numbers
and the tooling / App sheets. I never noticed that the MilSpec
nomenclature was even in the docs I have!
Bravo.
ijr
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224318#224318
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip switch grounding? |
At 12:45 PM 1/12/2009, you wrote:
>
>Many of the push button and/or toggle switches on the Infinity grips have
>two wires and most functions they control simply require a connection to a
>ground when activated (like PushToTalk, AP disconnect, Freq swap, etc.).
>Plus the trim switch (coolie hat) has one connection labeled common or
>ground.
>
>My question is, as a general rule, would it be better to connect those
>switches (needing a ground) to the airframe (under the seat somewhere in
>this case) or carry a single ground wire back to the forest of tabs (or
>avionics ground "bus")?
>
>Does it matter?
These are control lines, not signal lines. Further,
they carry very little current. They will perform
as advertised with local ground. The only caveat
might suggest that each ground wire from each
switch get its own ground wire through the maintenance
connector . . . and have it's own terminal to the ground
stud (8-32 screw).
This will prevent loss of one wire causing loss of
all control functions on the stick that use a ground
for operation.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: D-Sub connectors |
At 01:32 PM 1/12/2009, you wrote:
>
>See,
>
>That's why we post here Bob, you knew that the the color bands
>index to the mil-spec part, whereas when I order from Arrow or
>Jameco, or Newark, I only paid attention to the Amp catalog numbers
>and the tooling / App sheets. I never noticed that the MilSpec
>nomenclature was even in the docs I have!
Pleased to be of service my friend.
Bob . . .
Message 18
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Subject: | Internally Regulated Alternators and Z-24 |
I see Z-24 was deleted from the manual. Have there been any accepted
design changes for using internally regulated alternators with Z-*
designs? I see it is still in the index of the connection under
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html
I am using a Z13-8 configuration and have been the recipient of IR
alternator. Is the Z-24 still be best viable option for making the IR
act like an ER alternator?
Thanks,
Glenn
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Internally Regulated Alternators and Z-24 |
At 04:37 PM 1/12/2009, you wrote:
>
>I see Z-24 was deleted from the manual. Have there been any accepted
>design changes for using internally regulated alternators with Z-*
>designs? I see it is still in the index of the connection under
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html
>
>I am using a Z13-8 configuration and have been the recipient of IR
>alternator. Is the Z-24 still be best viable option for making the IR
>act like an ER alternator?
Z-24 has been moved to here:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf
Z-24 is an acceptable means for controlling
the IR alternator in the manner common to aircraft
where the alternator is not turned on or off while
at high engine rpm and/or under heavy load. I
offer this caveat only because there is a small chance
that any given IR alternator is not designed for
protecting it's own regulator under severe load-
dump conditions.
Having written that, I can tell you that IR
alternators from most sources will stand moderate
to severe load-dump. The Z-24 architecture will
smoothly transition into incorporation of the
AEC9004-1 controller should you elect to upgrade
at a later date.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: D-Sub connectors |
I'll second the compliment, I have learned so much about D-subs, when I saw
the sheet metal type in mouser I kinda wondered and I can't say I have ever
seen them in an actual application. SO machined it is!
Thanks
Chris
RV-10
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: D-Sub connectors
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 01:32 PM 1/12/2009, you wrote:
>>
>>See,
>>
>>That's why we post here Bob, you knew that the the color bands
>>index to the mil-spec part, whereas when I order from Arrow or
>>Jameco, or Newark, I only paid attention to the Amp catalog numbers
>>and the tooling / App sheets. I never noticed that the MilSpec
>>nomenclature was even in the docs I have!
>
> Pleased to be of service my friend.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
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