AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Wed 02/04/09


Total Messages Posted: 23



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:00 AM - Re: Re: Z-14 with dual Lightspeed III and SD-8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 07:53 AM - Trying to obtain card edge connector for KX165 Nav/com (Radioflyer)
     3. 08:29 AM - Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: Z-14 with dual Lightspeed III and SD-8 (Jim McBurney)
     5. 09:09 AM - Re: Trying to obtain card edge connector for KX165 Nav/com (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 09:27 AM - Re: Z-14 with dual Lightspeed III and SD-8 (jayb)
     7. 09:36 AM - Re: Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8 ()
     8. 09:48 AM - Re: Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8 (Ernest Christley)
     9. 09:56 AM - Re: Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 10:30 AM - Re: Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 10:50 AM - Breakdown in Bradenton. (Peter Laurence)
    12. 11:44 AM - Checllist Procedure for Z-13/8 Power Distribution  (Normand Biron)
    13. 12:18 PM - Re: Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8 (Ernest Christley)
    14. 01:30 PM - Re: Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    15. 01:39 PM - Re: Checllist Procedure for Z-13/8 Power Distribution  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    16. 01:39 PM - Old transponder interface details (Etienne Phillips)
    17. 03:28 PM - Re: Checllist Procedure for Z-13/8 Power Distribution  (Normand Biron)
    18. 06:22 PM - Re: Trying to obtain card edge connector for KX165 Nav/com (Radioflyer)
    19. 06:46 PM - Re: Trying to obtain card edge connector for KX165 Nav/com (Radioflyer)
    20. 08:15 PM - Re: Re: Trying to obtain card edge connector for KX165 Nav/com (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    21. 08:15 PM - Re: Checllist Procedure for Z-13/8 Power Distribution  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    22. 08:16 PM - Re: Checllist Procedure for Z-13/8 Power Distribution  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    23. 08:36 PM - Re: Checllist Procedure for Z-13/8 Power Distribution  (Normand Biron)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:00:24 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Z-14 with dual Lightspeed III and SD-8
    At 07:24 PM 2/3/2009, you wrote: ><bob.condrey@baesystems.com> > >I actually don't have an issue with this behavior (crowbar design) >as long as it's a published design feature. Lacking that, there's >nothing providing any clues to somebody installing these units that >use of a CB vs a fuse should be considered mandatory. How about the fact that an OV condition can cause BOTH ignition systems to become inoperative in a manner that requires pilot action to notice, interpret, diagnose and react to get them back up and running? <snip> >At this point not having specifics about voltage level, duration, >etc. that causes a crowbar event within the ignition is really just >academic curiosity to me. Real point is that there is apparently a >crowbar circuit internal to the units that is meant to trip a CB if >overvoltage is detected (maybe also overtemp?) and using an >inaccessible fuse instead of a CB is just flat unacceptable (to me). . . . as it should be. > I haven't grounded the plane simply because I've got redundancy > with a 12 volt Z-14 implementation with B&C alternators and > regulators. Not sure if the regulators are faster than the Plasma > III, but since the Plasma III will accept 28 volt power I suspect > the 12 volt regulator would trip an offending alternator offline > before the Plasma III crowbarred. Excellent question. > Even if something went really wrong with an alternator/regulator > and an ignition popped the fuse, I've still got a second, isolated > system. I will however be reconfiguring the ignition power supply > wiring in the next couple of months. > >I hope nobody interprets me being sour on LSE, I actually love the >ignitions! Klaus can be a little difficult to deal with and I can >also accept that. My purpose was simply to inform of a failure >mode. Given that there are a lot of LSE ignitions in the field and >a lot of those are being powered through, this can't be that big of >a problem - except for the poor soul that has an overvoltage >condition which then causes the big fan up front to stop. The performance of the product to function under normal conditions is not germane to this discussion. There are questions that the prudent system integrator needs to ask. They go to understanding why nearly a century of lessons learned and repeatable experiments in aviation history have at least gone unexplored or at worst simply cast aside. Any time I've blazed a new trail in the TC world, I was obliged to explain the combination of simple-ideas to everyone who asked and particular those who had authority over me. Finally, there was the gauntlet of qualification and certification to run unscathed. Sometimes you do it several times on the same new trail. Crowbar OV protection being but one example. Only had to do it a couple of times in the certified world. The OBAM aviation world made me do it a half dozen times! I am mystified as to the reasoning that supports this particular combination of simple-ideas. I have never seen a product offered into aviation or any other venue that shuts itself off for the purpose of surviving what is supposed to be a predictable and non-threatening event BY DESIGN AND QUALIFICATION. Worse yet, recovery requires pilot notice, interpretation, and action. This would not be tolerated in the TC aircraft world for what I believe are obvious reasons. Suppose your EFIS had such a feature? How about a fuel pump? A nav radio? This idea is much larger than arm-wrestling with one supplier about one product. It's a core component of how we think about the electrical systems and accessories in our airplanes. Bob . . .


    Message 2


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    Time: 07:53:54 AM PST US
    Subject: Trying to obtain card edge connector for KX165 Nav/com
    From: "Radioflyer" <skyeyecorp@airpost.net>
    Hi everyone, I was having some noise and tx/rx problems with my nav/com last fall. I suspect the problem is with the plane's wiring or antenna. I'ld like to power up the unit off the plane to see how it works all by itself. I know I must have an antenna connected and I have the pinouts for the Com card edge connector. I still have several questions - 1) Can someone give me a Digikey part number for the connector, or a m'fr part number? 2) Would it be Ok to power up the unit without any connections to the Nav and Glideslope sections? --Jose Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228443#228443


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:29:34 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8
    At 10:50 PM 2/3/2009, you wrote: >Hoo-boy.... >Thanks Bob and others for recommending >Z13/8....happy to continue with your dwgs and >single battery..... till I read about the >Lightspeed manual stating at paragraph ..2.7.. > >Electrical System Requirements > >All Plasma CDI systems can be used with 12 or 24 >volt electrical systems. Input voltages above >35 volts or reversed polarity will cause system dammage. Aha! A number. Okay, until we're offered different values, we can work with the idea that DO-160 upper operating voltage limits for 28v systems apply here . . . Emacs! >For this reason it is mandatory that all >aircraft using Plasma CD Ignitions are equipped >with over-voltage protection in their alternator >charging system(s). Over-voltage is a requirement for certified aircraft. . . . yes. > Power connection must be directly to the > battery terminals to avoid voltage spikes and electrical noise. ??? The "noise" and "spike" levels at the battery terminals are essentially consistent with those throughout the airplane's electrical bus structure. In fact, I'm revising the 'Connection's chapter on batteries to confess my own deprogramming from membership in the cult of "Batteries are Ultimate Defenders from Electrical Evils". It's an easy notion to buy into and yours truly did it for decades. After all, here's an electro-chemical energy system with a huge capability as both storage and delivery of Joules (watt-seconds). OBVIOUSLY . . . this big wad of lead and acid must offer a great deal of inertia . . . a sort of electrical flywheel that resists all perturbations of bus voltage. I will refer the readers to the same simple ideas we've always understood about batteries when it came to selecting the LV warning setpoint. We KNOW that batteries cannot deliver significant amounts of energy at voltages GREATER than the chemistry's physics. I.e. 12.5 volts and below. We also KNOW that to effectively recharge a battery, i.e. stuff significant amounts of energy back into it, the bus voltage must be on the order of 13.5 and higher. It follows then that a bus voltage of 13.0 or higher means that system loads are being supported by a functioning alternator. Ergo, this is a good place to set the LV annunciation system. Well duh . . . what about this no battery's land of 12.5 to 13.5 volts? Exactly what does the battery do for us in terms of resisting "wiggles" of voltage within these bounds? Answer: Nothing. I was most chagrined to make this connection so late in my career. I had been parroting the mantra of battery performance as a starter of engines, a repository of alternator out energy AND being the "best filter of noise on the bus". The battery's benefits with respect to noise is not insignificant when the alternator is running . . . this is because the bus is being supported at or above the threshold for the battery to be a significant LOAD on perturbations . . . especially on positive excursions. But look at this trace: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Safari_Bus_Noise_1.gif This was taken from my GMC van and shows noises on the bus on the order of 1.5 volts peak-to-peak. This was measured AT the battery. A similar trace was delivered by a measurement at the cigar lighter plug. Aluminum should never be used as an electrical conductor for the Plasma CDI. When and how would aluminum wire EVER be considered? I'm mystified as to why it's even mentioned. Use only the supplied aircraft quality stranded wire. >Electrical Operating Instructions > > Dual Systems only: If you have installed an > aux battery per the LSE supplied drawing, > monitor your voltmeter and do not switch to the > aux battery until the supply voltage of the > main battery is below 6.5 Volts or the engine > is not running smoothly. After switching to > the aux battery, your voltmeter will read the > voltage remaining in your aux battery. When a lead acid battery falls below 11.0 volts, it is 95+ percent used up and falling fast. "Monitoring" is an activity that adds to pilot workload for dealing with alternator-out operations. NOT good design. When the alternator quits, the prudent design calls for a simple activity that requires no further attention as systems manager or diagnostician until after the airplane is on the ground. >Do not switch your main alternator breaker in >flight to avoid potentially damaging voltage >spikes. This does not apply to the alternator field breaker. > This has been discussed at length here on the List. The simple ideas and their effects are well understood. Many airplanes don't even have b-lead breakers having been replaced by current limiters on the firewall. All the Z-figures speak to this > >And further at para.2.8A.... > >A. Power Supply - > >=B7 When connecting the power supply, >route the positive lead to a pull-able breaker, >4-cyl systems use 5A ...., and then directly to >the battery plus terminal, bypassing any >electrical buss or master solenoid. Refer to >the Input Connector Diagram & the Electrical Requirements section 2.7. This blazes a "new trail" in the woods. There are no accessories offered to TC aviation where such practice would be considered. > > >See here..... >http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Manuals/CdiManual_PlasmaII_II+_III.htm > > >And then for Dual Plasma CDI, Klaus further recommends..... > > >For Dual PLASMA CDI Installations, an auxiliary >battery and dual ignition indicator lights >are recommended. ><http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Manuals/PS_Diagram.htm>Please >click here for an aux battery wiring diagram. >See Figure 4 for the dual ignition indicator >lights diagram: ><http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Manuals/DualIndicator.htm>click here. > > >See here for the AUX Batt >Diagram..........http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Manuals/PS_Diagram.ht m These words go to the notion that prudent designs do the failure modes effects analysis to insure that no single failure of a failure-probable component puts the airplane at risk. Exactly how that is accomplished is normally left up to the system integrator. Acceptable FMEA has been a consistent design goal for each of the Z-figures. I can deduce no reason that a Lightspeed or any other ignition system should not run happily from a battery bus fuse. > > >How do I incorporate these- the 2 x "pullable" >C/bs and 2 x batteries - within Z13/8...? Put second battery in place by . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z35A.pdf and feed each ignition from one battery using . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Battery_Feed_for_Ignition.pdf Now, understand that I offer the suggestions in deference to Lightspeed requirements. Please understand that I find significant shortcomings in Lightspeed requirements with respect to parts count, reliability, and failure mode effects analysis. Summary: If the ov trip on these systems is equal to or greater than 32.2 volts, then installation in a 14v system with switches and fuses should be no big deal. This ASSUMES that the crowbar ov protection system has no parasitic trip modes. We've encountered this phenomenon a couple of times and instituted design changes to mitigate the problems as they were discovered. At the same time, it begs the question as to value of including fail-inactive OV protection internal to the product. Given what we know right now, I'll suggest that: (1) The feature adds no demonstrable value. The setpoint is probably WAY above any level the product would encounter in a well crafted 14v system. (2) It inserts new risks for unacceptable malfunction (single event kills the engine). (3) Benefits for connection directly to the battery are not demonstrable with a study of simple-ideas. The practice is contrary to design goals and practice for hundreds of thousands of airplanes for nearly a century. (4) The feature prevents learned and experienced system integrators from incorporating the product into new designs. Designes that embrace a rich history of lessons learned and accepted practice, i.e. powering the product from fuse-protected battery busses. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:33:49 AM PST US
    From: "Jim McBurney" <jmcburney@pobox.com>
    Subject: Re: Z-14 with dual Lightspeed III and SD-8
    Hi, All, Why I love diesels! Do not archive Blue skies and tailwinds Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk diesel Augusta GA 90% done, 90% left


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:09:17 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Trying to obtain card edge connector for KX165
    Nav/com At 09:51 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > >Hi everyone, >I was having some noise and tx/rx problems with my nav/com last >fall. I suspect the problem is with the plane's wiring or antenna. >I'ld like to power up the unit off the plane to see how it works all >by itself. I know I must have an antenna connected and I have the >pinouts for the Com card edge connector. I still have several questions - > >1) Can someone give me a Digikey part number for the connector, or a >m'fr part number? > >2) Would it be Ok to power up the unit without any connections to >the Nav and Glideslope sections? >--Jose There are dozens of 'card edge' connectors that will fit your radio for the purpose of crafting a bench test harness. There is but one connector brand and style that directly replaces the original harness connector . . . and a number of styles have been used on various radios over the years. Without having access to the manufacturer's parts list, identifying a second source for a suitable connector is not possible. Can you post a photo of the original connector? It would also be useful to see a photo of the back of the radio. Finally, confirm the wire-to-wire spacing of conductors on the card edge. It is possible that the connector you're looking for comes from AMP or Molex. Browse the data at: http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/Molex_Waldom/ and http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/AMP_Tyco/Amp_Card-Edge_Connectors.pdf to see if you can spot the connector you have in hand. Once you've got a suitable catalog number, then we can probably help you find one or a suitable substitute. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 6


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    Time: 09:27:45 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Z-14 with dual Lightspeed III and SD-8
    From: "jayb" <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
    Existing dual LSE systems may not have any way to alert the pilot of problems without the addition of the warning indicators. Note this info posted at http://www.lsecorp.com/News/News.htm. start quote --- All dual systems should have this warning feature. New Ignition Indicator Lights for Dual Plasma CDI Installations. This simple application of 2 LED warning lights will alert the pilot when one of the systems is disabled either by the power switch, a failed breaker, or in the event of an internal problem. Since the engine runs extremely well on one PLASMA CDI alone, a failure in the power supply, for example, might go unnoticed. These ignition indicator lights give the pilot immediate notice that the engine is running on only one ignition system. end quote --- It would be tempting fate to install dual LSE without two isolated power sources and adequate circuit protection. It's also apparent that proper mounting / cooling are just as important as providing power. This information is adequately described in the LSE install manual although admittedly the crowbar circuit wasn't disclosed except via a side conversation. It's prudent to follow the intent of the manufacturer's installation instructions or risk the consequences and end up as a feature story on the evening news. Regards, Jay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228464#228464


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:36:46 AM PST US
    Subject: Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8
    From: <longg@pjm.com>
    Bob, If I choose the routed suggested by your diagram to run both ign boxes, would you duplicate the fuse & 14 AWG from the batt buss or simply run the 14 AWG to a bus bar such that I could hook up both 5 amp cb's? It appears that this is only adding hardware from the already existing entry point of the buss and further extending it to cb's. The only valid argument I see is the ability to reset a cb in crisis mode (after a big OV event has blown both fuses) and continue down the road - albeit with just about everything else riding on the buss blown as well. Thanks so much for your input on this topic. I'm sorry you are not getting paid for this prime time activity. Hopefully there is a way we can donate to your cause. Recently I read a thread from some FAA lawyers who were talking about mechanical standards and regulation. One said that the FAA regulations for mechanical compliance (not design) are designed to be debated. He was referring to the often vague terms in which the regulations are written. They should be left open enough for debate, but not too wide open as to allow broad deviation from normal practices (depends who's calling what normal). IMO this type of debate should strive to improve the quality/design of the products offered in such a way that the improvements are both advantageous in technological design and add a factor of safety for the end user. For my $$ pure technology advancement that adds little or takes away from the integrity of well known systems is a bad investment. So, debate is good and I hope Klaus and others accept the forward thinking on which their products are offered. Great stuff. Glenn Do Not Archive From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 11:27 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8 At 10:50 PM 2/3/2009, you wrote: Hoo-boy.... Thanks Bob and others for recommending Z13/8....happy to continue with your dwgs and single battery..... till I read about the Lightspeed manual stating at paragraph ..2.7.. Electrical System Requirements All Plasma CDI systems can be used with 12 or 24 volt electrical systems. Input voltages above 35 volts or reversed polarity will cause system dammage. Aha! A number. Okay, until we're offered different values, we can work with the idea that DO-160 upper operating voltage limits for 28v systems apply here . . . For this reason it is mandatory that all aircraft using Plasma CD Ignitions are equipped with over-voltage protection in their alternator charging system(s). Over-voltage is a requirement for certified aircraft. . . . yes. Power connection must be directly to the battery terminals to avoid voltage spikes and electrical noise. ??? The "noise" and "spike" levels at the battery terminals are essentially consistent with those throughout the airplane's electrical bus structure. In fact, I'm revising the 'Connection's chapter on batteries to confess my own deprogramming from membership in the cult of "Batteries are Ultimate Defenders from Electrical Evils". It's an easy notion to buy into and yours truly did it for decades. After all, here's an electro-chemical energy system with a huge capability as both storage and delivery of Joules (watt-seconds). OBVIOUSLY . . . this big wad of lead and acid must offer a great deal of inertia . . . a sort of electrical flywheel that resists all perturbations of bus voltage. I will refer the readers to the same simple ideas we've always understood about batteries when it came to selecting the LV warning setpoint. We KNOW that batteries cannot deliver significant amounts of energy at voltages GREATER than the chemistry's physics. I.e. 12.5 volts and below. We also KNOW that to effectively recharge a battery, i.e. stuff significant amounts of energy back into it, the bus voltage must be on the order of 13.5 and higher. It follows then that a bus voltage of 13.0 or higher means that system loads are being supported by a functioning alternator. Ergo, this is a good place to set the LV annunciation system. Well duh . . . what about this no battery's land of 12.5 to 13.5 volts? Exactly what does the battery do for us in terms of resisting "wiggles" of voltage within these bounds? Answer: Nothing. I was most chagrined to make this connection so late in my career. I had been parroting the mantra of battery performance as a starter of engines, a repository of alternator out energy AND being the "best filter of noise on the bus". The battery's benefits with respect to noise is not insignificant when the alternator is running . . . this is because the bus is being supported at or above the threshold for the battery to be a significant LOAD on perturbations . . . especially on positive excursions. But look at this trace: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Safari_Bus_Noise_1.gif This was taken from my GMC van and shows noises on the bus on the order of 1.5 volts peak-to-peak. This was measured AT the battery. A similar trace was delivered by a measurement at the cigar lighter plug. Aluminum should never be used as an electrical conductor for the Plasma CDI. When and how would aluminum wire EVER be considered? I'm mystified as to why it's even mentioned. Use only the supplied aircraft quality stranded wire. Electrical Operating Instructions Dual Systems only: If you have installed an aux battery per the LSE supplied drawing, monitor your voltmeter and do not switch to the aux battery until the supply voltage of the main battery is below 6.5 Volts or the engine is not running smoothly. After switching to the aux battery, your voltmeter will read the voltage remaining in your aux battery. When a lead acid battery falls below 11.0 volts, it is 95+ percent used up and falling fast. "Monitoring" is an activity that adds to pilot workload for dealing with alternator-out operations. NOT good design. When the alternator quits, the prudent design calls for a simple activity that requires no further attention as systems manager or diagnostician until after the airplane is on the ground. Do not switch your main alternator breaker in flight to avoid potentially damaging voltage spikes. This does not apply to the alternator field breaker. This has been discussed at length here on the List. The simple ideas and their effects are well understood. Many airplanes don't even have b-lead breakers having been replaced by current limiters on the firewall. All the Z-figures speak to this And further at para.2.8A.... A. Power Supply - * When connecting the power supply, route the positive lead to a pull-able breaker, 4-cyl systems use 5A ...., and then directly to the battery plus terminal, bypassing any electrical buss or master solenoid. Refer to the Input Connector Diagram & the Electrical Requirements section 2.7. This blazes a "new trail" in the woods. There are no accessories offered to TC aviation where such practice would be considered. See here..... http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Manuals/CdiManual_PlasmaII_II+_III. htm And then for Dual Plasma CDI, Klaus further recommends..... For Dual PLASMA CDI Installations, an auxiliary battery and dual ignition indicator lights are recommended. Please click here <http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Manuals/PS_Diagram.htm> for an aux battery wiring diagram. See Figure 4 for the dual ignition indicator lights diagram: click here. <http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Manuals/DualIndicator.htm> See here for the AUX Batt Diagram..........http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Manuals/PS_Diagram .htm These words go to the notion that prudent designs do the failure modes effects analysis to insure that no single failure of a failure-probable component puts the airplane at risk. Exactly how that is accomplished is normally left up to the system integrator. Acceptable FMEA has been a consistent design goal for each of the Z-figures. I can deduce no reason that a Lightspeed or any other ignition system should not run happily from a battery bus fuse. How do I incorporate these- the 2 x "pullable" C/bs and 2 x batteries - within Z13/8...? Put second battery in place by . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z35A.pdf and feed each ignition from one battery using . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Battery_Feed_for_Ignition.pd f Now, understand that I offer the suggestions in deference to Lightspeed requirements. Please understand that I find significant shortcomings in Lightspeed requirements with respect to parts count, reliability, and failure mode effects analysis. Summary: If the ov trip on these systems is equal to or greater than 32.2 volts, then installation in a 14v system with switches and fuses should be no big deal. This ASSUMES that the crowbar ov protection system has no parasitic trip modes. We've encountered this phenomenon a couple of times and instituted design changes to mitigate the problems as they were discovered. At the same time, it begs the question as to value of including fail-inactive OV protection internal to the product. Given what we know right now, I'll suggest that: (1) The feature adds no demonstrable value. The setpoint is probably WAY above any level the product would encounter in a well crafted 14v system. (2) It inserts new risks for unacceptable malfunction (single event kills the engine). (3) Benefits for connection directly to the battery are not demonstrable with a study of simple-ideas. The practice is contrary to design goals and practice for hundreds of thousands of airplanes for nearly a century. (4) The feature prevents learned and experienced system integrators from incorporating the product into new designs. Designes that embrace a rich history of lessons learned and accepted practice, i.e. powering the product from fuse-protected battery busses. Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:48:01 AM PST US
    From: Ernest Christley <echristley@nc.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8
    Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> And further at para.2.8A.... >> >> A. Power Supply - >> >> When connecting the power supply, route the positive lead >> to a pull-able breaker, 4-cyl systems use 5A ...., and then directly >> to the battery plus terminal, bypassing any electrical buss or master >> solenoid. Refer to the Input Connector Diagram & the Electrical >> Requirements section 2.7. > > This blazes a "new trail" in the woods. There are > no accessories offered to TC aviation where such > practice would be considered. > Considering that this replaces a mag, does it really? The mag is connected directly without going through any bus or master solenoid. It's just that the mag packages everything in one neat container. I could be wrong.


    Message 9


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    Time: 09:56:15 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8
    11:47 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: >Christley <echristley@nc.rr.com> > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> >>>And further at para.2.8A.... >>> >>>A. Power Supply - >>> >>> When connecting the power supply, >>>route the positive lead to a pull-able >>>breaker, 4-cyl systems use 5A ...., and then >>>directly to the battery plus terminal, >>>bypassing any electrical buss or master >>>solenoid. Refer to the Input Connector >>>Diagram & the Electrical Requirements section 2.7. >> >> This blazes a "new trail" in the woods. There are >> no accessories offered to TC aviation where such >> practice would be considered. > >Considering that this replaces a mag, does it >really? The mag is connected directly without >going through any bus or master solenoid. >It's just that the mag packages everything in one neat container. > >I could be wrong. Don't understand. The mag is not directly connected to nor does it depend on battery power. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 10


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    Time: 10:30:37 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8
    At 11:34 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: >Bob, > >If I choose the routed suggested by your diagram >to run both ign boxes, would you duplicate the >fuse & 14 AWG from the batt buss or simply run >the 14 AWG to a bus bar such that I could hook up both 5 amp cbs? If you create an ignition bus that services contemporary conventions for minimizing the energy exposure of battery-feed wires during crash events, then you need a disconnect at the battery. A design goal for inoculating the aircraft's accessories from single-points of failure becoming hazardous. This suggests that dual ignition systems are either powered from multiple busses that have low probability of common failure or a single bus with a VERY low probability of failure. We've cited design and maintenance goals for making sure that a battery bus connected to a well maintained RG battery is the single bus with a very low probability of failure. This gave the writer comfort in suggesting that separate fuses for two ignition systems fed from an always hot bus supported was a good design when that bus was supported by (1) well maintained RG battery (2) main alternator (3) aux alternator and (4) protected with very fast fuses that addressed our goals for crash safety. >It appears that this is only adding hardware >from the already existing entry point of the >buss and further extending it to cbs. The only >valid argument I see is the ability to reset a >cb in crisis mode (after a big OV event has >blown both fuses) and continue down the road >albeit with just about everything else riding on the buss blown as well. That's the real sticking point. If we're doing due diligence and honoring our past teachers, there's no reason for the ignition system to even have such a feature. No mater how honorable the motivation for including it, it created FEMA issues that would get the thing booted from a TC aircraft. > >Thanks so much for your input on this topic. Im >sorry you are not getting paid for this prime >time activity. Hopefully there is a way we can donate to your cause. I wouldn't do it if it were not useful to me personally . . . so don't be concerned for any overt lack of compensation . . . > Recently I read a thread from some FAA lawyers > who were talking about mechanical standards and > regulation. One said that the FAA regulations > for mechanical compliance (not design) are > designed to be debated. He was referring to the > often vague terms in which the regulations are > written. They should be left open enough for > debate, but not too wide open as to allow broad > deviation from normal practices (depends whos calling what normal). Gee do they think? Do you suppose this is why folks in the airframe services business will shop around for the most compliant ACO to get their STC or 337 on an airplane? Like our tax codes, the FARS are a study in debate prompted by a lack of teaching to simple-ideas. The same phenomenon is infecting industry and government with an MBA/Harvard-Law mentality that curiosity, creativity and wisdom of experience by honorable individuals can be replaced with "The Plan". > >IMO this type of debate should strive to improve >the quality/design of the products offered in >such a way that the improvements are both >advantageous in technological design and add a >factor of safety for the end user. For my $$ >pure technology advancement that adds little or >takes away from the integrity of well known systems is a bad investment. Absolutely. > >So, debate is good and I hope Klaus and others >accept the forward thinking on which their products are offered. Sure. I recall with great fondness the circumstances of my last really rewarding job. I cannot recall a single instance of walking with trepidation into a come-to-jesus meeting in Beech's Targets Division. We had many meetings were some portion of a program was in trouble. As the problem was discussed and ideas circulated around the table, new avenues of attack would emerge. Folks freely volunteered to help out. You always walked out of those meetings with a feeling of accomplishment and renewal. This is how I imagine the meetings in Kelly Johnson's "Skunk Works" worked. This is a tribute to a handful of individuals at the ship's wheel. You can bet the bank on the idea that progress was bench marked by the successful integration of simple-ideas to satisfaction of design goals by a group of honorable individuals. That's my vision of what should happen here on the List. Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 10:50:46 AM PST US
    From: "Peter Laurence" <dr.laurence@mbdi.org>
    Subject: Breakdown in Bradenton.
    Please forgive the off topic. My son was driving from Ft Meyers Fl to Clearwater Fland broke down in Bradenton. Any listers in this area that can recommend a good autoshop? (honest) He's waiting for AAA to tow the car . Thanks Peter Laurence RV9A Canopy Do not archive.


    Message 12


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    Time: 11:44:09 AM PST US
    From: "Normand Biron" <normbiron@msn.com>
    Subject: Checllist Procedure for Z-13/8 Power Distribution
    I'm using the Z-13/8 Power Distribution diagram in a Glastar with dual Dynons. The FlightDek D180 is connected to the Main Bus and the EFIS D100 is connected to the Endurance Bus. Each unit monitors it's bus voltage. In normal operations I fly with the MASTER switch and AUX ALT switch ON and the ALTERNATE FEED switch OFF. I have experience no problems with this configuration. I recently implemented an checklist procedure to test the power distribution circuit and alternators on startup before taxi. After starting the engine and checking that the MASTER and AUX ALT switches are ON, I check that the voltage on the EFIS is .6 V less than the FlightDek. I then switch the ALTERNATE FEED ON and check that the EFIS voltage is the same as the FlightDek (over 14 V). I then switch OFF the MASTER and check that the FlightDEK voltage is 0 V and the EFIS voltage remains above 13.5 V. I then turn the MASTER back ON and the ALTERNARE FEED OFF and I'm ready to taxi. This procedure appears to be working fine and I have experienced no problems in flight. When I reviewed the flight log from the FlightDEK however I discovered that I was inducing a significant negative (MASTER OFF) and then possitive (MASTER ON) current (over 200 amps.) for a short period of time in the main alternator when I'm performing this test procedure. Will this damage the alternator? Thanks Norm


    Message 13


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    Time: 12:18:20 PM PST US
    From: Ernest Christley <echristley@nc.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8
    Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > 11:47 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: >> <echristley@nc.rr.com> >> >> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>>> >>>> And further at para.2.8A.... >>>> >>>> A. Power Supply - >>>> >>>> When connecting the power supply, route the positive lead >>>> to a pull-able breaker, 4-cyl systems use 5A ...., and then >>>> directly to the battery plus terminal, bypassing any electrical >>>> buss or master solenoid. Refer to the Input Connector Diagram & >>>> the Electrical Requirements section 2.7. >>> >>> This blazes a "new trail" in the woods. There are >>> no accessories offered to TC aviation where such >>> practice would be considered. >> >> Considering that this replaces a mag, does it really? The mag is >> connected directly without going through any bus or master solenoid. >> It's just that the mag packages everything in one neat container. >> >> I could be wrong. > > Don't understand. The mag is not directly connected > to nor does it depend on battery power. No, but abstracting out a bit. The mag is a integrated generator/spark-maker. The Plasma is just a spark-maker. We don't have total control of the mag. In fact, we're limited to grounding the sparks that it makes. I'm not seeing much difference in that and connecting the Plasma directly to the battery. In fact, connecting it directly to the battery could be seen as sticking closer to the previously blazed trail. If you view the Plasma as a part of the engine that MUST work for the fan to keep turning, tying it directly to the battery is making it more like a magneto, which keeps generating as long as the engine is turning. By using electronic ignition or injection, haven't we already moved far enough off of the previously blazed trail that certain electronic devices can't really be considered "accessories" anymore? I can fly till the fuels all gone without a working radio or map light, but I'll immediately become a glider if the ignition goes tits up (I added a gravity fed fuel drip line, so I'll be able to maintain straight and level if the fuel pumps and injectors get tired.) Powering the ignition is now as important as keeping fuel in the tank. Everything isn't in a neat package like it is with a mag, but I would think that it is important to provide as clean a path as possible between an electron source and the spark plug.


    Message 14


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    Time: 01:30:34 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual Plasma III and Z-13/8
    >> >> Don't understand. The mag is not directly connected >> to nor does it depend on battery power. >No, but abstracting out a bit. The mag is a integrated >generator/spark-maker. The Plasma is just a spark-maker. > >We don't have total control of the mag. In fact, we're limited to >grounding the sparks that it makes. I'm not seeing much difference >in that and connecting the Plasma directly to the battery. In fact, >connecting it directly to the battery could be seen as sticking >closer to the previously blazed trail. If you view the Plasma as a >part of the engine that MUST work for the fan to keep turning, tying >it directly to the battery is making it more like a magneto, which >keeps generating as long as the engine is turning. Hmmmm . . . Still not grasping your idea. The Lightspeed instructions allude to an idea that direct connection to the battery is a hedge against "noise and spikes". When the busses are connected to the battery by means of very fat wires, this idea is flawed in terms of the physics. >By using electronic ignition or injection, haven't we already moved >far enough off of the previously blazed trail that certain >electronic devices can't really be considered "accessories" anymore? The the crowds I run around with, an "accessory" or "appliance" is a purchased device with performance, reliability and quality features that are the responsibility of an outside supplier. Criticality of the device is deduced by reliability and failure modes studies. The outcome of those studies drive the system integrator's duties to craft a Plan-B and the supplier's duties not to allow the certified reliability numbers to degrade in production. >I can fly till the fuels all gone without a working radio or map >light, but I'll immediately become a glider if the ignition goes >tits up (I added a gravity fed fuel drip line, so I'll be able to >maintain straight and level if the fuel pumps and injectors get >tired.) Powering the ignition is now as important as keeping fuel >in the tank. Everything isn't in a neat package like it is with a >mag, but I would think that it is important to provide as clean a >path as possible between an electron source and the spark plug. Absolutely. But the Lightspeed recommendation for connection directly to the battery is no more "reliable" as a power source than powering through a protected feeder off the battery bus. Failure rates on wires with properly assembled terminals is exceedingly low. He didn't make this recommendation to improve on probability of power being available, it was to improve on quality of power . . . which is (1)in error and (2) disregards the 160/704 dissertations that explain exactly what an accessory/appliance should be designed to EXPECT in terms of power quality. Bob . . .


    Message 15


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    Time: 01:39:26 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Checllist Procedure for Z-13/8 Power Distribution
    At 01:41 PM 2/4/2009, you wrote: >I'm using the Z-13/8 Power Distribution diagram in a Glastar with dual Dynons. >The FlightDek D180 is connected to the Main Bus and the EFIS D100 is >connected to the Endurance Bus. Each unit monitors it's bus voltage. >In normal operations I fly with the MASTER switch and AUX ALT switch >ON and the ALTERNATE FEED switch OFF. I have experience no problems >with this configuration. > >I recently implemented an checklist procedure to test the power >distribution circuit and alternators on startup before taxi. After >starting the engine and checking that the MASTER and AUX ALT >switches are ON, I check that the voltage on the EFIS is .6 V less >than the FlightDek. There is no value but also no harm in running both alternators at the same time. The Aux alternator produces no useful output at engine rpms typical operations during your pre-flight checklist. >I then switch the ALTERNATE FEED ON and check that the EFIS voltage >is the same as the FlightDek (over 14 V). This is a valid check of normal feedpath diode (shows it is not shorted). > I then switch OFF the MASTER and check that the FlightDEK voltage > is 0 V and the EFIS voltage remains above 13.5 V. Confirms good diode but depending on e-bus loads and engine rpm during this test, you may have trouble supporting the e-bus above 13.5v > I then turn the MASTER back ON and the ALTERNATE FEED OFF and I'm > ready to taxi. This procedure appears to be working fine and I have > experienced no problems in flight. The Aux Alternator was never intended to be used in normal flight. Under certain day vfr loads, you could have a main alternator failure and not know it if total loads are within capability of the SD8 to hold the bus up. Recommend that the SD-8 not be ON for normal operations. > >When I reviewed the flight log from the FlightDEK however I >discovered that I was inducing a significant negative (MASTER OFF) >and then possitive (MASTER ON) current (over 200 amps.) for a short >period of time in the main alternator when I'm performing this test >procedure. Will this damage the alternator? What is a "short period of time"? I'm skeptical of this value because your alternator is not capable of sourcing 200A nor is it capable of being a 200A load. This may well be a flaw in the signal conditioning for your data acquisition system. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 16


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    Time: 01:39:26 PM PST US
    From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips@gmail.com>
    Subject: Old transponder interface details
    Hi All I'm building a converter from the serial protocol used by Garmin to the old Gilham encoding used by the older transponders. I'm lacking detail on the voltages used to send a transponder the encoded altitude. I'm using a old Narco AT 150 TSO... The binary values for each pin is pretty much done, so I'm looking for the electrical details now. Can anyone help me out? Thanks Etienne


    Message 17


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    Time: 03:28:57 PM PST US
    From: "Normand Biron" <normbiron@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: Checllist Procedure for Z-13/8 Power Distribution
    Bob, Thanks for your reply. I'll take your recommendation and not turn on the SD-8 alternator in normal operations. My initial thinking for turning on the SD-8 alternator in normal operations was to maintain power on the main and endurance buses and continue my flight, if the SD-8 could maintain the load, without knowing that the main alternator had failed. My startup checklist was developed to discover the problem on the ground before the next flight. When I'm making the power distribution tests in the startup checklist, the only loads on the alternator is the battery, battery bus, and the endurance bus EFIS. The SD-8 has no problem sustaining the 13.5 V at 1000rpm. The Dynon log is set up to samples data every 10 seconds, so the short period of time is less than 20 seconds. I agree that the amperage values may be a signal conditioning problem, but I still believe that main alternator is seeing a substantial transient during this test. Can this damage the alternator? Norm ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III<mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com<mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 3:38 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Checllist Procedure for Z-13/8 Power Distribution <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com<mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>> At 01:41 PM 2/4/2009, you wrote: >I'm using the Z-13/8 Power Distribution diagram in a Glastar with dual Dynons. >The FlightDek D180 is connected to the Main Bus and the EFIS D100 is >connected to the Endurance Bus. Each unit monitors it's bus voltage. >In normal operations I fly with the MASTER switch and AUX ALT switch >ON and the ALTERNATE FEED switch OFF. I have experience no problems >with this configuration. > >I recently implemented an checklist procedure to test the power >distribution circuit and alternators on startup before taxi. After >starting the engine and checking that the MASTER and AUX ALT >switches are ON, I check that the voltage on the EFIS is .6 V less >than the FlightDek. There is no value but also no harm in running both alternators at the same time. The Aux alternator produces no useful output at engine rpms typical operations during your pre-flight checklist. >I then switch the ALTERNATE FEED ON and check that the EFIS voltage >is the same as the FlightDek (over 14 V). This is a valid check of normal feedpath diode (shows it is not shorted). > I then switch OFF the MASTER and check that the FlightDEK voltage > is 0 V and the EFIS voltage remains above 13.5 V. Confirms good diode but depending on e-bus loads and engine rpm during this test, you may have trouble supporting the e-bus above 13.5v > I then turn the MASTER back ON and the ALTERNATE FEED OFF and I'm > ready to taxi. This procedure appears to be working fine and I have > experienced no problems in flight. The Aux Alternator was never intended to be used in normal flight. Under certain day vfr loads, you could have a main alternator failure and not know it if total loads are within capability of the SD8 to hold the bus up. Recommend that the SD-8 not be ON for normal operations. > >When I reviewed the flight log from the FlightDEK however I >discovered that I was inducing a significant negative (MASTER OFF) >and then possitive (MASTER ON) current (over 200 amps.) for a short >period of time in the main alternator when I'm performing this test >procedure. Will this damage the alternator? What is a "short period of time"? I'm skeptical of this value because your alternator is not capable of sourcing 200A nor is it capable of being a 200A load. This may well be a flaw in the signal conditioning for your data acquisition system. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List<http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi on>


    Message 18


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    Time: 06:22:16 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Trying to obtain card edge connector for KX165
    Nav/com
    From: "Radioflyer" <skyeyecorp@airpost.net>
    The connector is an 18 position, double row, with .156" spacing. I'll try to attach a picture below. Looks more like an AMP part than Molex, but for testing purposes I suppose it does not matter. Since I don't want to spend money on special crimpers and insertion/extraction tools, I suppose I would benefit from a type I can solder on to. If you know off hand of a suitable part number, I'll give it a try. Would it be OK to power up the KX165 without connecting anything to the Nav section? --Jose Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228581#228581 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/kx165connector_384.jpg


    Message 19


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    Time: 06:46:41 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Trying to obtain card edge connector for KX165
    Nav/com
    From: "Radioflyer" <skyeyecorp@airpost.net>
    Correction - the Com section connector (P401) that I need is a 15 position connector. (The 18 position connector is for the Nav section, presumably.) --Jose Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228586#228586


    Message 20


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    Time: 08:15:43 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Trying to obtain card edge connector for
    KX165 Nav/com At 08:20 PM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > >The connector is an 18 position, double row, with .156" spacing. >I'll try to attach a picture below. Looks more like an AMP part than >Molex, but for testing purposes I suppose it does not matter. Since >I don't want to spend money on special crimpers and >insertion/extraction tools, I suppose I would benefit from a type I >can solder on to. If you know off hand of a suitable part number, >I'll give it a try. > >Would it be OK to power up the KX165 without connecting anything to >the Nav section? > >--Jose Take a look at the wire entry side of the connector at the ends and compare with page 2 of http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/Molex_Waldom/SD4338.pdf see if they're not marked as "MOLEX" on one end and "4338" on the other. If this is the Molex part, you're looking for a 09-50-6155 (no mounting ears) or a 09-50-5155 (with mounting ears). The mating pins are what ever you can find in stock of the parts described here: http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/Molex_Waldom/Molex_4338_Pins.pdf Found some stock at: http://www.dfsales.com/mark/displayresults2.asp?PARTNUMBER-50-6155 http://www.dfsales.com/mark/displayresults2.asp?PARTNUMBER-50-5155 http://www.dfsales.com/mark/displayresults2.asp?PARTNUMBER=08-03-0304 You can put these on with the low cost b-crimp tool from B&C at http://bandc.biz Look for their BCT-1. If you're artful with a needle nose and soldering iron, you can put the pins on without a tool. However, this tool works with the mate-n-locks, a variety of Molex products, and the sheet metal d-sub pins. It wouldn't hurt to have one in your toolbox. This tool will put the pins on too . . . http://tinyurl.com/da7fym Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 21


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    Time: 08:15:43 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Checllist Procedure for Z-13/8 Power Distribution
    At 05:26 PM 2/4/2009, you wrote: >Bob, > > >The Dynon log is set up to samples data every 10 seconds, so the >short period of time is less than 20 seconds. I agree that the >amperage values may be a signal conditioning problem, but I still >believe that main alternator is seeing a substantial transient >during this test. Can this damage the alternator? No, it wont. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 22


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    Time: 08:16:37 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Checllist Procedure for Z-13/8 Power Distribution
    At 05:26 PM 2/4/2009, you wrote: >Bob, > >The Dynon log is set up to samples data every 10 seconds, so the >short period of time is less than 20 seconds. I agree that the >amperage values may be a signal conditioning problem, but I still >believe that main alternator is seeing a >substantial transient during this test. Can this damage the alternator? Which alternator/regulator combination are you running? Bob . . .


    Message 23


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    Time: 08:36:17 PM PST US
    From: "Normand Biron" <normbiron@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: Checllist Procedure for Z-13/8 Power Distribution
    Bob, I HAVE THE B & C L-60 ALTERNATOR WITH THE LR-3 CONTROLLER. Norm ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III<mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com<mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 10:16 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Checllist Procedure for Z-13/8 Power Distribution <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com<mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>> At 05:26 PM 2/4/2009, you wrote: >Bob, > >The Dynon log is set up to samples data every 10 seconds, so the >short period of time is less than 20 seconds. I agree that the >amperage values may be a signal conditioning problem, but I still >believe that main alternator is seeing a >substantial transient during this test. Can this damage the alternator? Which alternator/regulator combination are you running? Bob . . . http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List<http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi on>




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