Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:36 AM - Single Bus (h&jeuropa)
2. 08:18 AM - Re: Anyway to test VOR antenna location on ground? (Paul McAllister)
3. 10:04 AM - Re: Anyway to test VOR antenna location on ground? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 10:07 AM - Re: Single Bus (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 11:12 AM - Re: Single Bus (bcollinsmn)
6. 12:04 PM - Mode C Problem ()
7. 12:35 PM - Re: Mode C Problem (Floyd)
8. 12:53 PM - Re: Mode C Problem (Bill Hibbing)
9. 01:44 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 02/13/09 (John Markey)
10. 02:09 PM - Re: Single Bus (cjay)
11. 02:38 PM - Re: Mode C Problem (David LLoyd)
12. 02:41 PM - Re: Re: Single Bus (Bob Collins)
13. 03:34 PM - Re: Starting currents rusting the crankcase? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 04:33 PM - The future of avionics (bcollinsmn)
15. 07:05 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 02/14/09 (Speedy11@aol.com)
16. 10:03 PM - System Objectives (westexflyboy)
Message 1
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I am helping a friend with his electrical system. The aircraft is a Velocity,
fixed landing gear. The equipment being installed is a pair of GRT EFIS, Garmin
GNS430, GTX327 and GMA340 and LED lighting.
Given that the EFIS provides prompt warning of electrical problems, we are wondering
if an Essential Bus is really necessary. With the warning from the EFIS,
electrical load can be shed quickly (turn off items and go to hand held radio
& GPS, airspeed, alt & internal battery powered attitude).
So we are considering a simple system like Fig 17-6 (or Z11 & Z30) without the
Essential Bus features (he needs the weight of the batteries for CG reasons).
Are we missing something here?
Thanks
Jim Butcher
Europa XS
N241BW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230316#230316
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Anyway to test VOR antenna location on ground? |
Hi Ron,
If I were to do it over again I would put mine in the wing, despite the acc
ess issues and the need to have a co axial cable connection in the wing.
I had mine in the floor and I had problems getting the localizer and glides
lope.- I moved it to the roof and it improved but it wasn't great althoug
h I find VOR reception perfect in that location.
Obviously you will want to keep your strobe wires as far away as possible,
but as you probably know, the coupling is an inverse relationship, so a lit
tle bit of distance buys you a lot.
My strobe is on top of the fin and the wire passes close to my Bob Archer c
omm antenna with no ill effect.
As to answering your question, no, sorry I don't know of anyway to test the
relative merits of locations.- I think its one of those things that you
ask around on and find out what has worked / not worked for them.
As for me, my airplane is looking less and less like and airplane these day
s.- The engine is out at LEAF (Rotax shop) to split the case and inspect.
While the engine is off I am going to remove the flap drive tube as I am i
nstalling electric flaps, move the oil tank in preparation for installing t
he intercooler and I am going to do a phase one of my cooling modifications
.
I am not going to do all of my cooling mods or install the intercooler this
time around, otherwise I will be all year getting it back in the air.
Cheers, Paul=0A=0A=0A
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Anyway to test VOR antenna location on ground? |
At 11:33 PM 2/14/2009, you wrote:
>I have an AAE antenna for my panel mounted Vertex VX-700 handheld. I
>made a 1/4" thick balsa 90 degree bracket where half the antenna is
>horizontal, and half vertical so it will kinda work for both nav and
>com (supposedly ~ 70% as well for each as compared to mounting with
>antenna straight in proper orientation)
>
>Anyway had strobes going today (Kunzleman that drives two wingtip
>heads with position LEDs) and found a location where the strobes
>don't antagonize too much. This places the horizontal portion of the
>antenna at the top of the fuse going fore and aft parallel with the
>pitch torque tube ( large OD thin wall aluminium) about 16" away.
>
>Any ideas on how I could perhaps test VOR on ground to see if
>location works reasonable?
>
>I tuned to a VOR and was just about able to hear identifier with
>volume all the way up. No change to reception with antenna out of
>plane or in position I like with strobe going, I spun plane 360
>degrees while listening and there was no change.
Antennas for frequencies below that of transponders
and GPS are almost always a compromise from "ideal".
Ideal being a 1/4 wave radiator sitting in the center
of an infinite ground plane and no metallic obstructions
closer than say 10 wavelengths.
Fortunately, the vast majority of our communications
and navigation is line of sight limited and ground
based transmitters in both services tend to be robust.
Only a flight test in the situations YOU plan to use
the antennas will let you know if "more study is
needed". I've had builders report 100% satisfactory
performance and others report "piece of @#$@#" performance
on the same antenna. Problem was that one guy never
talked to anyone outside a traffic pattern and
the other guy was hoping for "loud and clear" from
an RCO out on his 10,000 foot horizon.
Every antenna installation on a $high$ TC aircraft
where optimum performance is expected gets an in-flight
pattern test. This takes a bunch of test equipment
and a cooperating ground station.
Our Mid-Continent airport is 10.5 miles from the VOR
and I can recall very few radios that would get
a signal strong enough on the ground but EVERY
radio would come alive seconds after you broke ground.
These were antennas and radios that are presumably
holy-watered. So without a lot of $time$ and test
equipment expense, your next best bet is go fly
it.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 4
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At 07:34 AM 2/15/2009, you wrote:
>
>I am helping a friend with his electrical system. The aircraft is a
>Velocity, fixed landing gear. The equipment being installed is a
>pair of GRT EFIS, Garmin GNS430, GTX327 and GMA340 and LED lighting.
>
>Given that the EFIS provides prompt warning of electrical problems,
>we are wondering if an Essential Bus is really necessary. With the
>warning from the EFIS, electrical load can be shed quickly (turn off
>items and go to hand held radio & GPS, airspeed, alt & internal
>battery powered attitude).
>
>So we are considering a simple system like Fig 17-6 (or Z11 & Z30)
>without the Essential Bus features (he needs the weight of the
>batteries for CG reasons). Are we missing something here?
The E-bus is an ENDURANCE bus that not only
congregates those items most useful for battery
only en route continuation of flight that
also provides dual power pathways. One of those
pathways does not require a battery contactor
to be closed (wasted energy equal to about
3 solid state receivers).
Z-11 is no heavier than an off-the-ramp
TC aircraft with an avionics bus. The
E-bus is always recommended if you plan
to venture of cross country . . . and
particularly at night.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 5
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[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 07:34 AM 2/15/2009, you wrote:
>
>
> Z-11 is no heavier than an off-the-ramp
> TC aircraft with an avionics bus. The
> E-bus is always recommended if you plan
> to venture of cross country . . . and
> particularly at night.
>
A few weeks ago I tried to get some feedback on approaching these things by way
of the Vertical Power system. I didn't see any reaction to it.
When I was at SteinAir a month or so ago for a Minnesota Wing (Van's Air Force)
meeting, Stein pointed out that the solid state setup is the future of avionics.
But I don't think I've ever seen this discussed on this board (which, by the way,
I consider to be THE single most valuable bulletin board for homebuilders anywhere).
It would be possible -- from what I can gather -- to set up a good backup system,
but not without circuit breakers/fuses/switches, which defeats the purpose
of the VP system.
I'm just curious how you see this approach to aircraft wiring fitting into some
of the excellent advice you provide wrt avionics and electrical system infrastructure?
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV-7A (#&^ fiberglass!)
http://rvbuildershotline.com
Day job: http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230372#230372
Message 6
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Mode C problem
My Mode C is intermittant and I cannot figure out why.
I have an Apollo SL-70 transponder hooked to a Trans-Cal 120-30xx solid state
encoder. The two are hooked together via an Approach Systems cable system. The
mode C seems to work as advertised on the ground, but becomes more and more
intermittant as the airplane goes to altitude. At altitude, the Mode C quits for
a couple of minutes, works for a minute or so and continues to cycle at a
variable rate. When the Mode C is transmitting at altitude, it sends correct
altitude data. My static system is tight as confirmed by a pressure test that
stays constant for nearly 30 minutes. The cable connections seem tight and
wiggling the cable and other wires behind the panel has no effect on the Mode C
operation on the ground. I had the same problem with an AmeriKing AK-350 encoder
which was recently replaced by the new Trans-Cal encoder.
I am beginning to suspect the SL-70 though the Garmin (formerly Apollo) folks
insist the problem is with the encoder.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Mode C Problem |
Charle,
If you are using grey code, it sounds like one of the pins at the
transponder is bent.
I had the exact same problem and it was a bent pin.
If you are using serial, disreguard the above.
If you need help, come see me, I am next hangar to Brian and Jim at Kestrel.
Floyd Wilkes
601XL
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <chasb@satx.rr.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 1:58 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mode C Problem
>
> Mode C problem
>
> My Mode C is intermittant and I cannot figure out why.
>
> I have an Apollo SL-70 transponder hooked to a Trans-Cal 120-30xx solid
> state
> encoder. The two are hooked together via an Approach Systems cable system.
> The
> mode C seems to work as advertised on the ground, but becomes more and
> more
> intermittant as the airplane goes to altitude. At altitude, the Mode C
> quits for
> a couple of minutes, works for a minute or so and continues to cycle at a
> variable rate. When the Mode C is transmitting at altitude, it sends
> correct
> altitude data. My static system is tight as confirmed by a pressure test
> that
> stays constant for nearly 30 minutes. The cable connections seem tight and
> wiggling the cable and other wires behind the panel has no effect on the
> Mode C
> operation on the ground. I had the same problem with an AmeriKing AK-350
> encoder
> which was recently replaced by the new Trans-Cal encoder.
>
> I am beginning to suspect the SL-70 though the Garmin (formerly Apollo)
> folks
> insist the problem is with the encoder.
>
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6A N11CB
> San Antonio
>
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Mode C Problem |
Charlie,
I had a somewhat similar problem with my transponder and found out it was a
bad finger in the tray connector. It caused me to pull my hair out finding
it but when I looked closely at the connector with the transponder out I
noticed one of the fingers in the connector didn't look quite right and when
I checked with my avionics shop he looked at the pin readout and told me
that that particular finger could certainly cause the problem I was having,
which was the mode C was intermittently going way off altitude. Once I
pulled out the connector and replaced that finger the problem was solved.
Try pulling out your transponder and take a careful look at the tray
connector. This may not be the problem but it's one more place you might
look at.
Bill,
Glasair SIIS-FT
----- Original Message -----
From: <chasb@satx.rr.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 1:58 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mode C Problem
>
> Mode C problem
>
> My Mode C is intermittant and I cannot figure out why.
>
> I have an Apollo SL-70 transponder hooked to a Trans-Cal 120-30xx solid
> state
> encoder. The two are hooked together via an Approach Systems cable system.
> The
> mode C seems to work as advertised on the ground, but becomes more and
> more
> intermittant as the airplane goes to altitude. At altitude, the Mode C
> quits for
> a couple of minutes, works for a minute or so and continues to cycle at a
> variable rate. When the Mode C is transmitting at altitude, it sends
> correct
> altitude data. My static system is tight as confirmed by a pressure test
> that
> stays constant for nearly 30 minutes. The cable connections seem tight and
> wiggling the cable and other wires behind the panel has no effect on the
> Mode C
> operation on the ground. I had the same problem with an AmeriKing AK-350
> encoder
> which was recently replaced by the new Trans-Cal encoder.
>
> I am beginning to suspect the SL-70 though the Garmin (formerly Apollo)
> folks
> insist the problem is with the encoder.
>
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6A N11CB
> San Antonio
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
18:01:00
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 02/13/09 |
My A&P mechanic told me to bolt the 2ga wire right next to the starter. Thi
s asures the best ground dring the highest amp loading on this circuit. Als
o, in some spam machines, it has been reported that electrogalvanic corrosi
on was caused by forcing starter motor current to run through the block, et
c. to a ground wire on the rear of the engine.
Bob, comments from your experience?
Glasair John III
SMBCers of Chicago
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful se
rvant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten
the gift. -Albert Einstein. -
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 07:51:51 AM PST US
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Affixing an Engine Ground
From: <longg@pjm.com>
I have a new IO-360 and I am at a loss as to the best place to bolt the
ground wire. Do any of you have a suggestion? A picture may be valuable
here.
Along the same lines, my craft is fiberglass and I am wondering if it's
smart to have two such ground running from the firewall to the engine.
Thanks,
Glenn
=0A=0A=0A
Message 10
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[quote="bcollinsmn"]
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 07:34 AM 2/15/2009, you wrote:
>
> A few weeks ago I tried to get some feedback on approaching these things by way
of the Vertical Power system. I didn't see any reaction to it.
>
> When I was at SteinAir a month or so ago for a Minnesota Wing (Van's Air Force)
meeting, Stein pointed out that the solid state setup is the future of avionics.
>
> But I don't think I've ever seen this discussed on this board (which, by the
way, I consider to be THE single most valuable bulletin board for homebuilders
anywhere).
>
> It would be possible -- from what I can gather -- to set up a good backup system,
but not without circuit breakers/fuses/switches, which defeats the purpose
of the VP system.
>
> I'm just curious how you see this approach to aircraft wiring fitting into some
of the excellent advice you provide wrt avionics and electrical system infrastructure?
Bob,
VP recommends an endurance bus as well, same concept as outlined in Z11. Nothing
magical about VP, it just replaces the breakers/fuses/switches with solid state
technology. I think a lot of people are going to be cautious for awhile
because everthing flows through a self contained box. This simplifies design
and installation; but a bit of faith is required until people start getting comfortable
with the concept. I think they've got a good track record so far.
cjay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230397#230397
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Mode C Problem |
Is the transponder antenna "clean"....?, And well connected, grounded, etc.
Engine oil can cause power emission troubles as it is a bit conductive at
those high frequencies.
D
----- Original Message -----
From: <chasb@satx.rr.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 11:58 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mode C Problem
>
> Mode C problem
>
> My Mode C is intermittant and I cannot figure out why.
>
> I have an Apollo SL-70 transponder hooked to a Trans-Cal 120-30xx solid
> state
> encoder. The two are hooked together via an Approach Systems cable system.
> The
> mode C seems to work as advertised on the ground, but becomes more and
> more
> intermittant as the airplane goes to altitude. At altitude, the Mode C
> quits for
> a couple of minutes, works for a minute or so and continues to cycle at a
> variable rate. When the Mode C is transmitting at altitude, it sends
> correct
> altitude data. My static system is tight as confirmed by a pressure test
> that
> stays constant for nearly 30 minutes. The cable connections seem tight and
> wiggling the cable and other wires behind the panel has no effect on the
> Mode C
> operation on the ground. I had the same problem with an AmeriKing AK-350
> encoder
> which was recently replaced by the new Trans-Cal encoder.
>
> I am beginning to suspect the SL-70 though the Garmin (formerly Apollo)
> folks
> insist the problem is with the encoder.
>
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6A N11CB
> San Antonio
>
>
>
Message 12
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|
Are you sure, cjay? There is a "get home" backup system for the VP-100 and
VP-200
http://verticalpower.com/docs/Backup_Wiring.pdf
But Marc says he's not a fan of it because it introduces several failure
points. And, of course, the VP-200 (and I think the VP-100, too) has its
load-shedding ability configured into the unit itself.
I have a VP-50, one alternator setup. I was trying to figure out how to get
the same benefits that the system in Z-11 affords, but the only system I
could come up with involved a second VP-50 and/or installing a bunch of
CBs/fuses/switches which, as I said, doesn't make much sense because it
introduces components that the VP system should eliminate.
I've just finished the load planning analysis for the VP system. I'm just a
go-up-and-look-down VFR pilot so we're not talking about the kind of
instrument/night flying that Bob mentions in his response to Jim's very
pertinent question. My backup is a hand-held radio. The Dynon has an
internal backup battery and I'm using an AirGizmo-docked GPS which also has
a battery.
I was just curious how folks see electrical systems architecture evolving in
consideration of this.
BTW, I'm very pleased with the people at VP and am very excited to be
working with their product.
An RV-flying pal has three VP-200s in his new RV-10.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjay
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 4:08 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Single Bus
[quote="bcollinsmn"]
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 07:34 AM 2/15/2009, you wrote:
>
> A few weeks ago I tried to get some feedback on approaching these
> things by way of the Vertical Power system. I didn't see any reaction
> to it.
>
> When I was at SteinAir a month or so ago for a Minnesota Wing (Van's
> Air Force) meeting, Stein pointed out that the solid state setup is
> the future of avionics.
>
> But I don't think I've ever seen this discussed on this board (which,
> by the way, I consider to be THE single most valuable bulletin board
> for homebuilders anywhere).
>
> It would be possible -- from what I can gather -- to set up a good
> backup system, but not without circuit breakers/fuses/switches, which
> defeats the purpose of the VP system.
>
> I'm just curious how you see this approach to aircraft wiring fitting
> into some of the excellent advice you provide wrt avionics and
> electrical system infrastructure?
Bob,
VP recommends an endurance bus as well, same concept as outlined in Z11.
Nothing magical about VP, it just replaces the breakers/fuses/switches with
solid state technology. I think a lot of people are going to be cautious
for awhile because everthing flows through a self contained box. This
simplifies design and installation; but a bit of faith is required until
people start getting comfortable with the concept. I think they've got a
good track record so far.
cjay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230397#230397
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Starting currents rusting the crankcase? |
At 03:41 PM 2/15/2009, you wrote:
>My A&P mechanic told me to bolt the 2ga wire right next to the
>starter. This asures the best ground dring the highest amp loading
>on this circuit. Also, in some spam machines, it has been reported
>that electrogalvanic corrosion was caused by forcing starter motor
>current to run through the block, etc. to a ground wire on the rear
>of the engine.
>
>Bob, comments from your experience?
There's nothing wrong with getting grounded "close"
to the starter but if there's a handier fat bolt
I'm not sure I'd wrap more wire around the engine
just to snuggle up to the starter. The voltage drop differences
between the "worst" location on the crankcase and
the "best" are very tiny and perhaps even difficult to measure.
I've heard this "galvanic" thing tossed around in
a host of conversations that spoke to every possible
malady from rotting the skins at the rivets and overlaps
to control surface hinges becoming detached. About
25 years ago, somebody posted a thing on the bulletin
boards at Beech warning against the use of lead pencils
to mark on aluminum sheet. The writer alluded to some
inspectors squawk for a surface defect where a lead
pencil was used to circle the area of interest on the
skin. The story went that evil, metal-munching bits
of graphite went to work on the aluminum and the whole
disk fell out.
I hadn't seen that little poster in many years and
brought it up during some conversation with a processes
and materials wiennie . . . he smiled and allowed as
how the event didn't happen.
Intuitively it makes a good tale but practically,
you just can't get (1) enough voltage drop across such
a low resistance joint in a crankcase for (2) sufficient
time supported by (3) the necessary moisture to make
such an event happen.
Now, there HAVE been instances here currents circulating
through engine parts have caused serious and relatively
rapid damage. A shorted armature winding in a turbine
engine starter-generator can cause circulating currents
to flow in the generator's quill shaft and through the
bearing balls that support the drive spline.
This is a relatively low voltage (under 1v in some cases)
but lots of current that causes the balls and races
to become pitted. Bearing failure soon follows.
Modern S-G designs add insulators between the
quill shaft and armature shaft to prevent
recurrences. But between non-moving, bolted-up
faces of a crankcase? Don't think so.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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Subject: | The future of avionics |
I meant to start a new thread regarding how the solid state system might change
avionics infrastructure ahead, rather than hijack Jim's thread.
So here it is.
I did doublecheck and,yes, the configuration drawings for the VP-200 and the VP-100
do allow installation of an endurance buss. The VP-50 does not.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV-7A (#&^ fiberglass!)
http://rvbuildershotline.com
Day job: http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230425#230425
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 02/14/09 |
Matt,
What's up???
I got the email version of the list today and now I have to download a
document to read all but the index??
Why the change??
Why can't you send the entire text as before??
Stan Sutterfield
**************You can't always choose whom you love, but you can choose how
to find them. Start with AOL Personals.
(http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000002)
Message 16
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Subject: | System Objectives |
I have three desired objectives for my RV-10's with dual electronic ignition:
1. Reliability
2. Low pilot workload to manage failures
3. Ability to use radios and EFIS prior to starting the engine (and leave them
on during engine start)
Z-14 architecture appears to meet objectives one and two. Z-14 might meet the
third objective if I use the main battery to start the engine, the aux battery
to power the radios and displays, and I start the engine with the crossfeed contactor
open.
Perhaps operating instructions for Z-14 would help - Where can I find those?
--------
Chase Snodgrass
Presidio, Texas
www.flybigbend.com
Simultaneous RV-10 twins under construction
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