AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Tue 02/17/09


Total Messages Posted: 11



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:25 AM - Re: Single Bus (cjay)
     2. 06:14 AM - LED Strobes & FAR Requirements (Paul McAllister)
     3. 09:44 AM - aux battery and diode alternative? (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com)
     4. 09:57 AM - Re: Single Bus (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
     5. 10:42 AM - Re: System Objectives (westexflyboy)
     6. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: System Objectives (MICHAEL LARKIN)
     7. 01:10 PM - Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and Diode Bridge 	Rectifier (Paul Eckenroth)
     8. 02:11 PM - Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and Diode Bridge 	Rectifier (Floyd)
     9. 02:21 PM - DC Power Switch on Z-13/8 ()
    10. 02:57 PM - Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery 	and Diode Bridge Rectifier (Paul Eckenroth)
    11. 04:43 PM - Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery 	and Diode Bridge Rectifier (Floyd)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:25:44 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Single Bus
    From: "cjay" <cgfinney@yahoo.com>
    marcausman wrote: > Well, first let me say the VP systems do a lot more than just replace switches and breakers. The more advanced the system, the "more" it does. In a nutshell, you get more electrical system features for simpler wiring. Lots of details on our web site so I won't go into it here. > > As far as backups, there are multiple levels of backups built into the system. Your backup strategy depends on your mission. A basic VFR aircraft really doesn't need backups, especially if you carry a hand held radio and have an EFIS with backup battery. > > However, more advanced aircraft usually incorporate multiple attitude sources, multiple radios, etc. Redundancy or backups in the core electrical system is no different. > > We always recommend to customers to install backups for CRITICAL systems (typically EFIS/attitude source, but is determined by the builder) so the pilot can continue safely while in flight. The backup may be an internal battery, or it may be a backup circuit wired directly to the battery bus. This methodology has the VP system as the primary switching system, and a separate and different system to provide backup power to critical avionics. A example for comparison might be having your EFIS as the primary attitude source, and an electric gyro as a backup. This is very common and accepted practice and is the same for the VP system. Marc, I didn't mean to undervalue VP, I was trying to put it in perspective. At least at its core it is the solid state devices, but certainly one of your big advantages is once you've gone digital, you've got a vast new potential in software control. Now we get to set our switches and breaker settings like programming our VCR... well maybe that's not a good analogy, I still can't figure how do do mine right... cjay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230628#230628


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:14:46 AM PST US
    From: Paul McAllister <l_luv2_fly@yahoo.com>
    Subject: LED Strobes & FAR Requirements
    Hi all, I noticed a lot of manufacturers offering LED Strobes at Airventure last ye ar. I was wondering how do I determine if the light output meets or exceeds a T SP'd Xenon strobe.- I seem to recall that there was a minimum requirement stated in Joules, but I can't be sure. Does anyone know how I could go about making such a comparison ? Thanks,- Paul =0A=0A=0A


    Message 3


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    Time: 09:44:39 AM PST US
    Subject: aux battery and diode alternative?
    From: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com
    Bob: My RV-7A is wired per Z-13/8 and I want to modify it to avoid EFIS brow nout during starting. I have reviewed Z-35 and Z-10/8, but Z-35 adds a swit ch to my panel that I would like to avoid, and Z-10/8 appears to add complexity/parts count with two relays and two fuses along the alterna te feed path from the battery bus to the ebus. If all I need to do is kee p a single EFIS screen on during start up, cant I simplify things by just connecting the aux battery to the EFIS and keep it charged by having an additional connection from either the main bus or battery bus with a di ode to prevent discharge during starting? Im probably missing something, b ut doesnt seem like I am gaining anything by the addition of relays. thanks Erich


    Message 4


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    Time: 09:57:00 AM PST US
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    Subject: Single Bus
    Yes that was bizarre..I remember reading the write up. As one with a totally electrically dependant airplane (albeit a metal airpl ane) with electric fuel pumps only and dual electronic ignitions who flys i n IMC..I REALLY hope it never happens to me..:) Cheers Frank Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 4:35 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Single Bus Hi Jim, No doubt by now you have seen a number of posts about the advantage of dual path ways that the eBuss configuration offers. As you probably recall I t ook a lightening hit in my Europa, and among the many electrical things tha t died in the next few milliseconds was the main contactor. I can't can't tell you how happy I was when I reached over to that eBuss sw itch, turned it on and a few essential things sprung into life. Cheers, Paul 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D //www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D .com/contribution"> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:42:37 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: System Objectives
    From: "westexflyboy" <airplanedriver@gmail.com>
    We're planning to use dual LSE Plasma III's and all glass panels, which is why we're leaning toward Z-14. Best I can tell P-mags are not available for the six cylinder Lycoming. (?) I see my options as follows: install a small battery behind the panel strictly for pre-start ops, or install the IPS device suggested by Bob Newman. Bob, I am eager to see those checklists. -------- Chase Snodgrass Presidio, Texas www.flybigbend.com Simultaneous RV-10 twins under construction Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230708#230708


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:50:47 AM PST US
    From: MICHAEL LARKIN <mlas@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: System Objectives
    Chase, I run a dual LSE Plasma III and have an all glass panel. I too used a version of the Z-14 . It's good news that the P-mags are not available for the 6's, they suck. I just got my 11th P-mag failure in the field. The out come was good. Plane OK, pilot ok. Engine not so ok. Timing runaway, CHT's over 600 deg for aprox. 5 minutes on what was a new engine (not anymore). The pilot had problems with isolating the mags because of a faulty key switch and was forced to land. I have seen enough failures to say no to anyone who wants to use this product, it could cost you your life. I know I'll here the blind followers that will follow the company and its product into the dirt, but I care about saving life. Most builders don't understand the implications of an extremely advanced timing point. It would be better if the ignition system would just shut off. When the timing go out of range to the advanced side, it's a single point failure! If you have your head about you, you may be able to isolate the problem and secure the faulted system. If you don't you may end up landing out. Like my last failure, it may be dark. Fortunately he had an airport nearby. The funny part (sarcasm), this pilot has seen several failures with his P-mags and has fallen into the trap of just changing them out. Sooner or later you run out of rope and fate becomes the hunter. If he chooses to stay with the product one has to wonder what will happen next. Good luck to all you P-mag drivers, may fate be your friend. I know I got a bit off point, but I have taken so much grief from the P-mag Gestapo that I had to say something. Back on point, you may find that the second battery will be helpful for battery starts with fuel injection systems on hot summer days. Especially if you have dual electronic ignitions installed. Mike Larkin Larkin Aviation Consulting On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:38 AM, westexflyboy wrote: > > > > We're planning to use dual LSE Plasma III's and all glass panels, > which is why we're leaning toward Z-14. Best I can tell P-mags are > not available for the six cylinder Lycoming. (?) > > I see my options as follows: install a small battery behind the > panel strictly for pre-start ops, or install the IPS device > suggested by Bob Newman. > > Bob, I am eager to see those checklists. > > -------- > Chase Snodgrass > Presidio, Texas > www.flybigbend.com > Simultaneous RV-10 twins under construction > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230708#230708 > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 01:10:19 PM PST US
    Subject: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and Diode
    Bridge Rectifier
    From: Paul Eckenroth <N509RV@eckenroth.com>
    I had previously written asking for advice on trouble shooting my system which is based on Z-11 with the addition of a aux battery to prevent brown out during engine starts. "I have a RV9A wired as per Z-11 with a 7A aux battery as an EFIS keep alive during start. Lately the EFIS has been graying out during engine start which implies that the aux battery is being tapped for other than the electronics during engine start. The batteries are isolated using two diode bridge rectifiers from B&C. The E bus which feed the EFIS and other electronics gets it's power from the main bus through one of the bridge rectifiers. Both of the batteries power the main bus through individual contactors. The E bus is also powered through the second bridge rectifier by both batteries direct and then controlled by the E buss switch. Normal start is main battery contactor on, aux battery contactor off, and E bus switch on. This should isolate the aux battery to the E bus until the aux battery contactor is turned on after engine start. I have checked both diode assemblies to see that they are allowing current to flow in the correct direction and they are not allowing backfeed. Everything checks out properly using the voltmeter. However it seems to me that the problem must lie with the diodes since they are the only link between the batteries with the aux battery contactor off. Can a diode function correctly under low load conditions and then temporarily break down under start conditions." The replies to my questions were that the diode cannot sometimes fail and is the aux battery fully charged. This did not solve my problem. I discussed my schematic with an EE friend who thought the problem was due to the 2 diodes feeding one buss and that a diode could temporarily leak back if the voltage on the anode was a certain amount less than the voltage on the cathode. This would be the condition with two batteries feeding the same buss with voltage drop from the diodes. He thought that this could be enough to sometimes brown out the EFIS. If this is true then my system design needs to be changed. I notice that the new Z-10/8 utilizes a brown out battery with the use of a relay to isolate the two batteries during engine start. I can easily change over to this schematic and will if the 2 diodes are the problem. I know there is a lot of education and experience out there. Can my problem be due to the design utilizing the 2 diodes. Regards Paul Eckenroth


    Message 8


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    Time: 02:11:02 PM PST US
    From: "Floyd" <fwilkes@gvtc.com>
    Subject: Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and
    Diode Bridge Rectifier Paul, Do you have the aux battery connected to the connected to the "external backup power" on pin 15 or just to the keep alive on pin 2. When I only had one battery, I would get the brown out you mention. When I added the aux battery connected to pin 15, my problems went away. Floyd Wilkes 601XL ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Eckenroth To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:07 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and Diode Bridge Rectifier I had previously written asking for advice on trouble shooting my system which is based on Z-11 with the addition of a aux battery to prevent brown out during engine starts. "I have a RV9A wired as per Z-11 with a 7A aux battery as an EFIS keep alive during start. Lately the EFIS has been graying out during engine start which implies that the aux battery is being tapped for other than the electronics during engine start. The batteries are isolated using two diode bridge rectifiers from B&C. The E bus which feed the EFIS and other electronics gets it's power from the main bus through one of the bridge rectifiers. Both of the batteries power the main bus through individual contactors. The E bus is also powered through the second bridge rectifier by both batteries direct and then controlled by the E buss switch. Normal start is main battery contactor on, aux battery contactor off, and E bus switch on. This should isolate the aux battery to the E bus until the aux battery contactor is turned on after engine start. I have checked both diode assemblies to see that they are allowing current to flow in the correct direction and they are not allowing backfeed. Everything checks out properly using the voltmeter. However it seems to me that the problem must lie with the diodes since they are the only link between the batteries with the aux battery contactor off. Can a diode function correctly under low load conditions and then temporarily break down under start conditions." The replies to my questions were that the diode cannot sometimes fail and is the aux battery fully charged. This did not solve my problem. I discussed my schematic with an EE friend who thought the problem was due to the 2 diodes feeding one buss and that a diode could temporarily leak back if the voltage on the anode was a certain amount less than the voltage on the cathode. This would be the condition with two batteries feeding the same buss with voltage drop from the diodes. He thought that this could be enough to sometimes brown out the EFIS. If this is true then my system design needs to be changed. I notice that the new Z-10/8 utilizes a brown out battery with the use of a relay to isolate the two batteries during engine start. I can easily change over to this schematic and will if the 2 diodes are the problem. I know there is a lot of education and experience out there. Can my problem be due to the design utilizing the 2 diodes. Regards Paul Eckenroth


    Message 9


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    Time: 02:21:15 PM PST US
    Subject: DC Power Switch on Z-13/8
    From: <longg@pjm.com>
    I am using Z13/8 along with Z-25 for a IR Alternator. Behavior: When I pull the 5 amp alt breaker with my DC switch on Alt, it completely dumps my main power bus. Question: Is this by design? Is there a way to trip the Alt without providing a blackout? I would prefer to shut down the main gracefully if the alternator trips. (this may be me...) On Z-24 the DC Switch terminal (5) leads to the master battery contactor. As shown this did not work for me. I switched 2 & 5 as shown on Z-13 and this appeared to fix the problem. I am not sure if this is a diagram error or I have a wire crossed? Thanks, Glenn


    Message 10


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    Time: 02:57:16 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and
    Diode Bridge Rectifier
    From: Paul Eckenroth <N509RV@eckenroth.com>
    Floyd My aux battery is used through the E Buss. The idea being that it would add to the endurance in addition to keeping the EFIS alive during engine start. This was based on diodes keeping the two batteries segregated. I could go directly to the EFIS but would then have to add a switch. Paul On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Floyd <fwilkes@gvtc.com> wrote: > Paul, > > Do you have the aux battery connected to the connected to the "external > backup power" on pin 15 or just to the keep alive on pin 2. When I only had > one battery, I would get the brown out you mention. When I added the aux > battery connected to pin 15, my problems went away. > > Floyd Wilkes > 601XL > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Paul Eckenroth <N509RV@eckenroth.com> > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:07 PM > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery > and Diode Bridge Rectifier > > I had previously written asking for advice on trouble shooting my system > which is based on Z-11 with the addition of a aux battery to prevent brown > out during engine starts. > > "I have a RV9A wired as per Z-11 with a 7A aux battery as an EFIS keep > alive > during start. Lately the EFIS has been graying out during engine start > which implies that the aux battery is being tapped for other than the > electronics during engine start. > > The batteries are isolated using two diode bridge rectifiers from B&C. The > E bus which feed the EFIS and other electronics gets it's power from the > main bus through one of the bridge rectifiers. Both of the batteries power > the main bus through individual contactors. The E bus is also powered > through the second bridge rectifier by both batteries direct and then > controlled by the E buss switch. Normal start is main battery contactor on, > aux battery contactor off, and E bus switch on. This should isolate the aux > battery to the E bus until the aux battery contactor is turned on after > engine start. > > I have checked both diode assemblies to see that they are allowing current > to flow in the correct direction and they are not allowing backfeed. Everything > checks out properly using the voltmeter. However it seems to me that the > problem must lie with the diodes since they are the only link between the > batteries with the aux battery contactor off. Can a diode function > correctly under low load conditions and then temporarily break down under > start conditions." > > The replies to my questions were that the diode cannot sometimes fail and > is the aux battery fully charged. This did not solve my problem. I > discussed my schematic with an EE friend who thought the problem was due to > the 2 diodes feeding one buss and that a diode could temporarily leak back > if the voltage on the anode was a certain amount less than the voltage on > the cathode. This would be the condition with two batteries feeding the > same buss with voltage drop from the diodes. He thought that this could be > enough to sometimes brown out the EFIS. If this is true then my system > design needs to be changed. > > I notice that the new Z-10/8 utilizes a brown out battery with the use of a > relay to isolate the two batteries during engine start. I can easily > change over to this schematic and will if the 2 diodes are the problem. > > > I know there is a lot of education and experience out there. Can my > problem be due to the design utilizing the 2 diodes. > > > Regards > > Paul Eckenroth > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > * > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 04:43:34 PM PST US
    From: "Floyd" <fwilkes@gvtc.com>
    Subject: Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and
    Diode Bridge Rectifier Paul, The diodes cause at least a .5 volt drop not the best idea if you are trying to use the last bit of battery. With the pin 15 connected to the aux battery directly via a fuse, the dynon will automatically switch to the aux if voltage drops on the primary. It will then display a message that it will shut down in 30 seconds if you do not press a button to cancel the shut down. Thus no switch is required as it automatically turns off 30 seconds after you lose power from the primary unless you cancel the shutdown. That is how I have mine wired. So on every shutdown I get the message the dynon will shutdown in 30 seconds. I let it timeout and that is that. Floyd Wilkes 601XL Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Eckenroth To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:54 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and Diode Bridge Rectifier Floyd My aux battery is used through the E Buss. The idea being that it would add to the endurance in addition to keeping the EFIS alive during engine start. This was based on diodes keeping the two batteries segregated. I could go directly to the EFIS but would then have to add a switch. Paul On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Floyd <fwilkes@gvtc.com> wrote: Paul, Do you have the aux battery connected to the connected to the "external backup power" on pin 15 or just to the keep alive on pin 2. When I only had one battery, I would get the brown out you mention. When I added the aux battery connected to pin 15, my problems went away. Floyd Wilkes 601XL ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Eckenroth To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:07 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and Diode Bridge Rectifier I had previously written asking for advice on trouble shooting my system which is based on Z-11 with the addition of a aux battery to prevent brown out during engine starts. "I have a RV9A wired as per Z-11 with a 7A aux battery as an EFIS keep alive during start. Lately the EFIS has been graying out during engine start which implies that the aux battery is being tapped for other than the electronics during engine start. The batteries are isolated using two diode bridge rectifiers from B&C. The E bus which feed the EFIS and other electronics gets it's power from the main bus through one of the bridge rectifiers. Both of the batteries power the main bus through individual contactors. The E bus is also powered through the second bridge rectifier by both batteries direct and then controlled by the E buss switch. Normal start is main battery contactor on, aux battery contactor off, and E bus switch on. This should isolate the aux battery to the E bus until the aux battery contactor is turned on after engine start. I have checked both diode assemblies to see that they are allowing current to flow in the correct direction and they are not allowing backfeed. Everything checks out properly using the voltmeter. However it seems to me that the problem must lie with the diodes since they are the only link between the batteries with the aux battery contactor off. Can a diode function correctly under low load conditions and then temporarily break down under start conditions." The replies to my questions were that the diode cannot sometimes fail and is the aux battery fully charged. This did not solve my problem. I discussed my schematic with an EE friend who thought the problem was due to the 2 diodes feeding one buss and that a diode could temporarily leak back if the voltage on the anode was a certain amount less than the voltage on the cathode. This would be the condition with two batteries feeding the same buss with voltage drop from the diodes. He thought that this could be enough to sometimes brown out the EFIS. If this is true then my system design needs to be changed. I notice that the new Z-10/8 utilizes a brown out battery with the use of a relay to isolate the two batteries during engine start. I can easily change over to this schematic and will if the 2 diodes are the problem. I know there is a lot of education and experience out there. Can my problem be due to the design utilizing the 2 diodes. Regards Paul Eckenroth href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List a>http://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution




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