Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:56 AM - Re: Old transponder interface details (Etienne Phillips)
2. 05:47 AM - Re: aux battery and diode alternative? (jayb)
3. 06:05 AM - Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and Diode Bridge Rectifier (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:01 AM - Re: Airworthiness Directives (glen matejcek)
5. 07:41 AM - Re: DC Power Switch on Z-13/8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 07:56 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 02/17/09 (Jeff Page)
7. 08:19 AM - Sky-tec starters - elimination of Starter Contactor (Vern Little)
8. 08:51 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 02/17/09 (Matt Prather)
9. 09:24 AM - Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and Diode Bridge Rectifier (Joe)
10. 09:43 AM - Re: Sky-tec starters - elimination of Starter Contactor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 09:43 AM - Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and Diode Bridge Rectifier (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 09:54 AM - Re: Re: Single Bus ()
13. 10:57 AM - Re: Sky-tec starters - elimination of Starter Contactor (Vern Little)
14. 11:15 AM - Re: LED Strobes & FAR Requirements (Eric M. Jones)
15. 11:21 AM - Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and Diode Bridge Rectifier (Paul Eckenroth)
16. 02:13 PM - Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and Diode Bridge Rectifier (Joe)
17. 04:56 PM - Re: Re: LED Strobes & FAR Requirements (Paul McAllister)
18. 06:16 PM - Re: Re: odd TX problem (McFarland, Randy)
19. 06:46 PM - Re: Re: odd TX problem (Bret Smith)
20. 07:18 PM - Re: Re: odd TX problem (S. Ramirez)
21. 07:21 PM - Re: Re: odd TX problem (BobsV35B@aol.com)
22. 08:47 PM - Z-11 with a permanent magnet alternator (Bob Meyers)
23. 09:53 PM - Help needed obtaining filter (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Old transponder interface details |
Hi Joe
I noticed that the encoding is somewhat different to Gray coding, despite
the terms Gilham and Gray being used interchangably in all the aviation
documentation.
As far as I know, Gray code is constructed by applying the -1200
offset, taking the binary value, and XOR-ing it with the same binary
right-shifted by one position. All is well for the first few values, but
after the 5th value (-800 odd), the two codes diverge, with Gray being
000000111, and Gilham being 000000100...
Do you by any chance have the method for generating Gilham code? I've spent
days looking for it on the web, but without any success! I've also tried to
distill the solution looking a the table on your website, also without any
joy.
Thanks
Etienne
2009/2/17 Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips@gmail.com>
> That is most useful. Thanks very much!
>
>
> 2009/2/16 Joe Dubner <jdubner@yahoo.com>
>
>>
>> Etienne,
>>
>> The transponder inputs are TTL logic levels with inverted polarity (active
>> low). The converter should use open collector outputs as all encoders do
>> AFAIK but I don't see any problem using active outputs unless you intend to
>> parallel additional encoders.
>>
>> I built a similar converter some years ago and you may find something it
>> it that is helpful.
>> http://www.mail2600.com/EncoderConverter/EncoderConverter.html
>>
>> Best,
>> Joe
>> Independence, OR
>> Aircraft Position: http://www.mail2600.com/position
>> Aircraft Last Track: http://www.mail2600.com/track
>>
>>
>> Etienne Phillips wrote:
>>
>>> etienne.phillips@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Hi All
>>>
>>> I'm building a converter from the serial protocol used by Garmin to the
>>> old Gilham encoding used by the older transponders. I'm lacking detail on
>>> the voltages used to send a transponder the encoded altitude. I'm using a
>>> old Narco AT 150 TSO... The binary values for each pin is pretty much done,
>>> so I'm looking for the electrical details now.
>>>
>>> Can anyone help me out?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Etienne
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: aux battery and diode alternative? |
RV10 auto sag power circuit is attached.
Fused power from the Main bus contactor activates relay whenever main bus power
is present. Relay supplies power from small battery to desired devices.
Relay output drives GRT HX displays, one AHRS and an EIS (not shown for some reason).
Output is protected by a fusible link.
A Schottky diode is used to charge the small battery.
The relay could be eliminated in favor of a switch but this setup doesn't require
any intervention to work. If the relay were to fail the symptom would be EFIS
screens "browning out" during engine start.
Cheers,
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230818#230818
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv10_sag_pwr_866.pdf
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery |
and Diode Bridge Rectifier
At 03:07 PM 2/17/2009, you wrote:
>I had previously written asking for advice on trouble shooting my
>system which is based on Z-11 with the addition of a aux battery to
>prevent brown out during engine starts.
>
>"I have a RV9A wired as per Z-11 with a 7A aux battery as an EFIS keep alive
>during start. Lately the EFIS has been graying out during engine
>start which implies that the aux battery is being tapped for other
>than the electronics during engine start.
>
>The batteries are isolated using two diode bridge rectifiers from
>B&C. The E bus which feed the EFIS and other electronics gets it's
>power from the main bus through one of the bridge rectifiers. Both
>of the batteries power the main bus through individual
>contactors. The E bus is also powered through the second bridge
>rectifier by both batteries direct and then controlled by the E buss
>switch. Normal start is main battery contactor on, aux battery
>contactor off, and E bus switch on. This should isolate the aux
>battery to the E bus until the aux battery contactor is turned on
>after engine start.
>
>I have checked both diode assemblies to see that they are allowing current
>to flow in the correct direction and they are not allowing
>backfeed. Everything checks out properly using the
>voltmeter. However it seems to me that the problem must lie with
>the diodes since they are the only link between the batteries with
>the aux battery contactor off. Can a diode function correctly under
>low load conditions and then temporarily break down under start conditions."
>
>The replies to my questions were that the diode cannot sometimes
>fail and is the aux battery fully charged. This did not solve my
>problem. I discussed my schematic with an EE friend who thought the
>problem was due to the 2 diodes feeding one buss and that a diode
>could temporarily leak back if the voltage on the anode was a
>certain amount less than the voltage on the cathode. This would be
>the condition with two batteries feeding the same buss with voltage
>drop from the diodes. He thought that this could be enough to
>sometimes brown out the EFIS. If this is true then my system
>design needs to be changed.
>
>I notice that the new Z-10/8 utilizes a brown out battery with the
>use of a relay to isolate the two batteries during engine start. I
>can easily change over to this schematic and will if the 2 diodes
>are the problem.
Are your sure the battery is good? If the
diodes are preventing back-feed to the system
during cranking -AND- EFIS supply voltage
falls anyhow, then it seems the battery is
incapable of doing it's job.
Put a voltmeter on aux battery during cranking
and note that it should not drop below 12.0
volts for a fully charge battery.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 4
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| Subject: | RE: Airworthiness Directives |
Hi All-
This article from EAA tries to clarify some of the diction that gets
crossed up and mis-applied as legalese gets translated to hangar speak.
Some of the highlights are that FAA will never issue an AD against an
Experimental aircraft. It can, and does, issue AD's against appliances etc
used in experimentals. Compliance with AD's issued against your particular
installed goodies is not required, but addressing the AD is.
This brings up 2 points: First, the difference between "compliance" and
"addressing". For example, I have an RSA injector that falls under the
recent flurry of AD's. The AD calls for work to be performed by an A&P.
If I do the work and certify the system safe, I have addressed the AD
without having complied with it, as I am not an A&P. This course of action
is entirely acceptable to the administrator, even if all his minions are
not quite in step with his intentions.
The second issue is that if one were to choose to not actually address
relevant AD's, the AD police are not going to swoop down on you, and most
likely no one official will ever know. However, should you find yourself
in a court of law, perhaps after an accident or incident, your position
would be indefensible and you will be 'careless and reckless' just for
starters. This is because the Federal court considers the FAA to be the
reigning authority on all things aeronautical, and as such the FAA's
opinion is precisely the one that we should all adopt. That is not to say
that individual employees of the FAA can't be found in error, but the FAA
generally won't be. As an aside, this legal concept (whose name I can't
recall at teh moment) is why the AIM essentially becomes regulatory once
you find yourself in court. After all, the AIM is how the FAA feels things
should be done. If you get into trouble while operating outside of teh
AIM's guidance, well, you were de facto 'careless and reckless'. It's
perhaps not so much an FAA thing as a legal / court system thing.
I understand this is a hot topic that some people can get really cranked up
about. There is a certain amont of PC speak in the article that might come
across as a bit ambiguous when viewed from some perspectives, but I can
assure you that if anyone is still a disbeliever they can call up EAA HQ
and go right to the horses mouth to get the history and evolution of this
situation. As with many of the things we deal with in aviation, the core
concept is really pretty simple and entirely safety related.
>Time: 05:58:10 AM PST US
>From: "Larry Portouw" <Larry@portouw.com>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Airworthiness Directives
>
>"For those of us who are outside the USA, in the rest of the world and not
>in the
>
>EAA, is there anything relevant in it for us Others?
>
>Chris
>
>Sydney Australia"
>
glen matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: DC Power Switch on Z-13/8 |
At 04:19 PM 2/17/2009, you wrote:
>
>I am using Z13/8 along with Z-25 for a IR Alternator.
>
>Behavior: When I pull the 5 amp alt breaker with my DC switch on Alt, it
>completely dumps my main power bus.
>
>Question: Is this by design? Is there a way to trip the Alt without
>providing a blackout? I would prefer to shut down the main gracefully if
>the alternator trips.
>
>(this may be me...) On Z-24 the DC Switch terminal (5) leads to the
>master battery contactor. As shown this did not work for me. I switched
>2 & 5 as shown on Z-13 and this appeared to fix the problem. I am not
>sure if this is a diagram error or I have a wire crossed?
You probably have it wired improperly. With a progressive
transfer switch, full down should be OFF . . . no connections
closed through either side of the switch. Mid position should
close the battery contactor and bring the bus up. Pulling the
ALT breaker should have no effect on BAT only operations.
Full up position should add the alternator if the breaker
is closed . . . otherwise, nothing happens. Of course, the
engine has to be running for the bus voltage to come up and
turn off the LV Warning lights . . . but even with the enigine
not running, you should hear the b-lead contactor close when
you go from mid to full up positions. Pulling the alt breaker
should open the b-lead contactor only leaving the battery
contactor closed and the bus still hot.
See Note 15 of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Rev12A/AppZ_Rev12A.pdf
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 02/17/09 |
Paul,
When I bought my Cessna a few years ago, the very first thing I did
was install Whelen wing tip strobes, the brightest multiflash ones
they offered. My purpose was to increase my visibility during day vfr
flight to minimize the risk of collision.
I later discovered the strobes had little effect. I was visiting the
local control tower and asked the controllers what made an airplane
most visible. They said in all cases they can see the aircraft before
the strobes become apparent. I watched some arrivals and sadly, it is
true.
So now my objective with strobes is night vfr visibility. Although
nav lights are visible from a great distance, something that flashes
is far easier to identify as an aircraft. Unfortunately, the strobes
on my Cessna are so bright, I can rarely use them at night, even
though the tubes themselves are not directly visible. So I fly with
them off most of the time, defeating the purpose :-(
Also, the glass covers over my strobe tubes always have condensed
moisture on the inside. I suspect this dims them somewhat.
I also tried to do a brightness comparison of LED versus strobe tubes.
The manufacturers are not co-operative, providing data in a form
difficult to compare.
My conclusion was that if you want the brightest possible, strobe
tubes are it, especially when fired by higher-powered electronics.
The Aveoflash LED units slightly exceed the FAR requirements
horizontally, but are not as bright in other directions that don't
matter.
At night, the Aveoflash units should be excellent, since super-bright
is perhaps a disadvantage. During the day, it doesn't matter anyway.
There is a huge savings in installation effort and runtime current, so
these are what I will be using.
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
> From: Paul McAllister <l_luv2_fly@yahoo.com>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED Strobes & FAR Requirements
>
> I noticed a lot of manufacturers offering LED Strobes at Airventure
> last year.
>
> I was wondering how do I determine if the light output meets or exceeds a T
> SP'd Xenon strobe.- I seem to recall that there was a minimum requirement
> stated in Joules, but I can't be sure.
>
> Does anyone know how I could go about making such a comparison ?
Message 7
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| Subject: | Sky-tec starters - elimination of Starter Contactor |
Bob, Sky-tec's web site has information on wiring up their starters without
starter contactors. In addition, they seem to directly contradict the
recommendation of Van's aircraft on how to wire a starter contactor if one
is used.
See http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_diag.htm for more information.
I plan on using an automotive relay instead of a 30A pushbutton switch to
activate the solenoid as they recommend, but the principle is the same. The
folklore that I'm used to is that you need an upside-down starter contactor
to be immune from large G-loads activating the starter. Seems if you
eliminate the contactor, this is not a problem. Of course, this all depends
on the design and reliability of the Sky-tec internal solenoid.
I've asked Sky-tec for clarification on the potential failure mechanisms of
their solenoids (G loading etc.), but have had no response.
Any opinions on elimination of the contactor? For bonus marks, how about
commenting on Van's recommendation of using the I contact in the starter
contactor to feed the starter motor solenoid (both pics on the link above)?
Thanks,
Vern Little
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 02/17/09 |
Too bright? It should be relatively easy to make LED's any "dimness"
desired - just by controlling peak current.. To some extent this is
possibly true with tube style strobes, but I think they will have a
minimum brightness floor, below which they just won't flash. Whether
that's dim enough, I don't know. LED "strobe" manufacturers could easily
incorporate a "night ground" mode which would dim them enough to not be
disruptive but be bright enough to still draw attention and increase
visibility.
Regards,
Matt-
>
> Paul,
>
> When I bought my Cessna a few years ago, the very first thing I did
> was install Whelen wing tip strobes, the brightest multiflash ones
> they offered. My purpose was to increase my visibility during day vfr
> flight to minimize the risk of collision.
>
> I later discovered the strobes had little effect. I was visiting the
> local control tower and asked the controllers what made an airplane
> most visible. They said in all cases they can see the aircraft before
> the strobes become apparent. I watched some arrivals and sadly, it is
> true.
>
> So now my objective with strobes is night vfr visibility. Although
> nav lights are visible from a great distance, something that flashes
> is far easier to identify as an aircraft. Unfortunately, the strobes
> on my Cessna are so bright, I can rarely use them at night, even
> though the tubes themselves are not directly visible. So I fly with
> them off most of the time, defeating the purpose :-(
>
> Also, the glass covers over my strobe tubes always have condensed
> moisture on the inside. I suspect this dims them somewhat.
>
> I also tried to do a brightness comparison of LED versus strobe tubes.
> The manufacturers are not co-operative, providing data in a form
> difficult to compare.
>
> My conclusion was that if you want the brightest possible, strobe
> tubes are it, especially when fired by higher-powered electronics.
>
> The Aveoflash LED units slightly exceed the FAR requirements
> horizontally, but are not as bright in other directions that don't
> matter.
>
> At night, the Aveoflash units should be excellent, since super-bright
> is perhaps a disadvantage. During the day, it doesn't matter anyway.
> There is a huge savings in installation effort and runtime current, so
> these are what I will be using.
>
> Jeff Page
> Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
>
>> From: Paul McAllister <l_luv2_fly@yahoo.com>
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED Strobes & FAR Requirements
>>
>> I noticed a lot of manufacturers offering LED Strobes at Airventure
>> last year.
>>
>> I was wondering how do I determine if the light output meets or exceeds
>> a T
>> SP'd Xenon strobe.- I seem to recall that there was a minimum
>> requirement
>> stated in Joules, but I can't be sure.
>>
>> Does anyone know how I could go about making such a comparison ?
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and |
Diode Bridge Rectifier
Paul,
I have tested diodes at work that check out fine with a voltmeter but
fail under load. I think the reason is that the voltmeter is testing
the diode with 1.5 volts, whereas the actual circuit operates at a much
higher voltage. So using a voltmeter is not a good test. Here is a
test you can try: Disconnect the main battery to eliminate any
possibility that it is affecting your tests. Connect one lead of a 12
volt test light to the aux battery negative or ground. With the other
lead, touch each terminal of the diode. The light should illuminate on
the battery side of the diode but not on the other side. The fact that
you are using two diodes should not cause the symptoms that you
describe.
Joe Gores
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Sky-tec starters - elimination of Starter Contactor |
At 10:16 AM 2/18/2009, you wrote:
><rv-9a-online@telus.net>
>
>Bob, Sky-tec's web site has information on wiring up their starters
>without starter contactors. In addition, they seem to directly
>contradict the recommendation of Van's aircraft on how to wire a
>starter contactor if one is used.
>
>See http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_diag.htm for more information.
With all due respect to Skytec . . . the diagram offered
by Van's is technically correct and practical solution
for eliminating delayed starter dis-engagement reported
by many builders . . .
Emacs!
>I plan on using an automotive relay instead of a 30A pushbutton
>switch to activate the solenoid as they recommend, but the principle
>is the same.
Correct. You can do without external contactor providing
a robust current control path for the extra-ordinary inrush
demands of the built in contactor
See also . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z22-23K.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Starter/PM_Starter_w_RunOn_Relay.pdf
>The folklore that I'm used to is that you need an upside-down
>starter contactor to be immune from large G-loads activating the starter.
Urban myth . . .
> Seems if you eliminate the contactor, this is not a problem. Of
> course, this all depends on the design and reliability of the
> Sky-tec internal solenoid.
I have no reason to suspect that the built in
contactor on a Skytec is any better/worse than
any other built in contactor.
See also . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z22-23K.pdf
>I've asked Sky-tec for clarification on the potential failure
>mechanisms of their solenoids (G loading etc.), but have had no response.
G-loading concerns for contators are bogus.
>Any opinions on elimination of the contactor? For bonus marks, how
>about commenting on Van's recommendation of using the I contact in
>the starter contactor to feed the starter motor solenoid (both pics
>on the link above)?
It's a slick implementation of features offered in
automotive contacts and has much to recommend it.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery |
and Diode Bridge Rectifier
At 11:21 AM 2/18/2009, you wrote:
>Paul,
>I have tested diodes at work that check out fine with a voltmeter
>but fail under load. I think the reason is that the voltmeter is
>testing the diode with 1.5 volts, whereas the actual circuit
>operates at a much higher voltage. So using a voltmeter is not a
>good test. Here is a test you can try: Disconnect the main battery
>to eliminate any possibility that it is affecting your
>tests. Connect one lead of a 12 volt test light to the aux battery
>negative or ground. With the other lead, touch each terminal of the
>diode. The light should illuminate on the battery side of the diode
>but not on the other side. The fact that you are using two diodes
>should not cause the symptoms that you describe.
>Joe Gores
I'd be pleased to put my hands on any diode
that exhibits any failure mode. I'll pay $5 plus
postage for any carcass you can send me.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 12
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Marc,
Thanks for adding the better price point VP-50. That helps fill a bigger
gap. At $6k, I'll rather buy lots of fancy switches and wire, but at
$1500 it may have a chance.
Actually I've already bought lots of switches and wire, so perhaps at
upgrade time.
Do Not Archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
marcausman
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 1:31 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Single Bus
<marc@verticalpower.com>
Well, first let me say the VP systems do a lot more than just replace
switches and breakers. The more advanced the system, the "more" it does.
In a nutshell, you get more electrical system features for simpler
wiring. Lots of details on our web site so I won't go into it here.
As far as backups, there are multiple levels of backups built into the
system. Your backup strategy depends on your mission. A basic VFR
aircraft really doesn't need backups, especially if you carry a hand
held radio and have an EFIS with backup battery.
However, more advanced aircraft usually incorporate multiple attitude
sources, multiple radios, etc. Redundancy or backups in the core
electrical system is no different.
We always recommend to customers to install backups for CRITICAL systems
(typically EFIS/attitude source, but is determined by the builder) so
the pilot can continue safely while in flight. The backup may be an
internal battery, or it may be a backup circuit wired directly to the
battery bus. This methodology has the VP system as the primary switching
system, and a separate and different system to provide backup power to
critical avionics. A example for comparison might be having your EFIS as
the primary attitude source, and an electric gyro as a backup. This is
very common and accepted practice and is the same for the VP system.
--------
Marc Ausman
http://www.verticalpower.com
RV-7 IO-390 Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230541#230541
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Sky-tec starters - elimination of Starter Contactor |
Thanks, Bob. I am using Z22 with diodes (like your last figure), only
the ground of the relay goes to an oil pressure switch to prevent
accidental operation of the starter when the engine is running (don't
ask!).
I understand the run-on problem is due to self-generation of the
starter, and Van's prevents this by splitting the solenoid current from
the primary feed. Clever use of the "I" terminal on the contactor.
Since Skytec is pretty adamant in their wiring diagrams, I suspect that
they have not experienced run-on problems... but who knows?
My choice of a relay vs. contactor comes down to whether I want a hot
battery lead connected to the starter for the full duration of flight.
I suppose that if it ever came off the starter and shorted that bad
things may happen. I just have to mitigate or accept this risk.
Thanks for your help.
Vern
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Sky-tec starters - elimination of
Starter Contactor
At 10:16 AM 2/18/2009, you wrote:
<rv-9a-online@telus.net>
Bob, Sky-tec's web site has information on wiring up their starters
without starter contactors. In addition, they seem to directly
contradict the recommendation of Van's aircraft on how to wire a starter
contactor if one is used.
See http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_diag.htm for more information.
With all due respect to Skytec . . . the diagram offered
by Van's is technically correct and practical solution
for eliminating delayed starter dis-engagement reported
by many builders . . .
I plan on using an automotive relay instead of a 30A pushbutton
switch to activate the solenoid as they recommend, but the principle is
the same.
Correct. You can do without external contactor providing
a robust current control path for the extra-ordinary inrush
demands of the built in contactor
See also . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z22-23K.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Starter/PM_Starter_w_RunOn_Relay.p
df
The folklore that I'm used to is that you need an upside-down
starter contactor to be immune from large G-loads activating the
starter.
Urban myth . . .
Seems if you eliminate the contactor, this is not a problem. Of
course, this all depends on the design and reliability of the Sky-tec
internal solenoid.
I have no reason to suspect that the built in
contactor on a Skytec is any better/worse than
any other built in contactor.
See also . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z22-23K.pdf
I've asked Sky-tec for clarification on the potential failure
mechanisms of their solenoids (G loading etc.), but have had no
response.
G-loading concerns for contators are bogus.
Any opinions on elimination of the contactor? For bonus marks, how
about commenting on Van's recommendation of using the I contact in the
starter contactor to feed the starter motor solenoid (both pics on the
link above)?
It's a slick implementation of features offered in
automotive contacts and has much to recommend it.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: LED Strobes & FAR Requirements |
Paul,
I wrote up a paper on this some years ago:
www.PerihelionDesign.com/downloads/aircraft_beacons_using_leds.pdf
But beware--I have some work to do on this. At the time LEDs could not quite do
the job. They can now. So my conclusion needs revision and I am adding and revising
some other details. The power and angle stuff is correct.
"...Beans for supper tonight, six o'clock.
Navy beans cooked in Oklahoma ham...
Got to eat 'em with a spoon, raw onions
and cornbread; nothing else...."
--Will Rogers
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230863#230863
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and |
Diode Bridge Rectifier
Bob and all who responded
The diodes were tested using the multimeter and also using the 12V battery.
Everything functions as it should. No voltage is detected on the terminals
that should be blocked. Also when using the E switch to llight the E Buss
the Main Buss stays dark. I have removed leads and started and flown with
the aux battery only powering the E Buss without issues. Unless someone has
any other ideas I believe I will rewire so that the aux battery directly
powers the E buss during start eliminating a diode at that point.
I am very curious as to the assertion of my EE friend that two diodes
powering the same buss from two different power sources (batteries) can
reverse direction (backfeed) if the anode voltage is less than the cathode
which would possiblly explain my problem. Can anyone specifically address
this.
Also, when I adjust my wiring I intend to feed both batteries through the
bridge diode and through the E Buss switch. I am assuming that both
batteries and the diode voltage drop is better than the main battery only
without the diode voltage drop for endurance. I would be interested in
other opinions.
Thanks for all the comments.
Paul
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 11:21 AM 2/18/2009, you wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>> I have tested diodes at work that check out fine with a voltmeter but fail
>> under load. I think the reason is that the voltmeter is testing the diode
>> with 1.5 volts, whereas the actual circuit operates at a much higher
>> voltage. So using a voltmeter is not a good test. Here is a test you can
>> try: Disconnect the main battery to eliminate any possibility that it is
>> affecting your tests. Connect one lead of a 12 volt test light to the aux
>> battery negative or ground. With the other lead, touch each terminal of the
>> diode. The light should illuminate on the battery side of the diode but not
>> on the other side. The fact that you are using two diodes should not cause
>> the symptoms that you describe.
>> Joe Gores
>>
>
> I'd be pleased to put my hands on any diode
> that exhibits any failure mode. I'll pay $5 plus
> postage for any carcass you can send me.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Figure Z-10/8 compared to Z-11 + Aux Battery and |
Diode Bridge Rectifier
Paul,
I think your EE friend is mistaken about diodes conducting when reversed
biased, no matter if there are one or two or more diodes. Are you sure
that aux battery contactor is open during engine cranking? Have you
tried disconnecting a wire off from it to see if the E-buss voltage
still drops during starting? I was wondering if any part of the aux
battery ground circuit is shared with the starting curent from the main
battery? Have you checked for bad connectons? It is difficult to
comment on your proposed changes without having a schematic to view and
understand better.
Bob,
I admit that diodes rarely fail. The one that failed at work was in an
industrial battery charger for 48 volt electric hi-lo. The charger put
out 150 amps when initially connected to a discharged battery. The
batteries are as big as a school teachers desk and were located remotely
from the chargers. One time I shut off the 480V supply to change a fuse
but forgot to unplug the dead battery. My wrench shorted out between
the fuse stud and an aluminum heat sink. The wrench immediately welded
itself in place and turned red hot. Luckily I was wearing leather
gloves. I was leaving the area as the wrench turned white hot and
vaporized the center section of the wrench. Lessons learned: disconnect
ALL power sources before working on equipment. And even "dead"
batteries have some power left in them.
Joe
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: LED Strobes & FAR Requirements |
Hi Eric,
Thanks for sharing your analysis.- What prompted me to think about this a
gain was the discussion thread about xenon strobe lights and radio noise.
- If LED's are now viable then is getting close to the time to retire xen
on flashes, high voltage cables, and inverters, along with the RFI and exce
ss weight.
Thanks again,- Paul=0A=0A=0A
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: odd TX problem |
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: odd TX problem |
The 430 is drawing 10A when transmitting, drawing down the bus voltage
enough to "kill" the transponder. Verify your alternator is putting out
full power.
Bret Smith
RV-9A N16BL
Blue Ridge, Ga
www.FlightInnovations.com <http://www.flightinnovations.com/>
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
McFarland, Randy
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: odd TX problem
I have 240 hrs on an RV7A experimental.
Just developed an interesting problem. When I transmit on mt Garmin 430
it momentarily turns the Garmin 327 transponder Off. Then 327 will come
back on until the next time I key the Mic again.
Help, Ideas, wild ass guesses?
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com>
Sent: Wed Feb 18 11:12:05 2009
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Strobes & FAR Requirements
<emjones@charter.net>
Paul,
I wrote up a paper on this some years ago:
www.PerihelionDesign.com/downloads/aircraft_beacons_using_leds.pdf
But beware--I have some work to do on this. At the time LEDs could not
quite do the job. They can now. So my conclusion needs revision and I am
adding and revising some other details. The power and angle stuff is
correct.
"...Beans for supper tonight, six o'clock.
Navy beans cooked in Oklahoma ham...
Got to eat 'em with a spoon, raw onions
and cornbread; nothing else...."
--Will Rogers
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230863#230863
=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=03g=EF=BD=EF=BD
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: odd TX problem |
Even so, the battery should fill in the gap. Assuming the engine is
running and both sources are available, I bet there is a high resistance
somewhere. By high resistance, I mean a half Ohm or so in the wiring or
connections.
Simon Ramirez
Copyright 2009
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret
Smith
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:43 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: odd TX problem
The 430 is drawing 10A when transmitting, drawing down the bus voltage
enough to "kill" the transponder. Verify your alternator is putting out
full power.
Bret Smith
RV-9A N16BL
Blue Ridge, Ga
www.FlightInnovations.com <http://www.flightinnovations.com/>
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
McFarland, Randy
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: odd TX problem
I have 240 hrs on an RV7A experimental.
Just developed an interesting problem. When I transmit on mt Garmin 430
it momentarily turns the Garmin 327 transponder Off. Then 327 will come
back on until the next time I key the Mic again.
Help, Ideas, wild ass guesses?
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com>
Sent: Wed Feb 18 11:12:05 2009
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Strobes & FAR Requirements
<emjones@charter.net>
Paul,
I wrote up a paper on this some years ago:
www.PerihelionDesign.com/downloads/aircraft_beacons_using_leds.pdf
But beware--I have some work to do on this. At the time LEDs could not
quite do the job. They can now. So my conclusion needs revision and I am
adding and revising some other details. The power and angle stuff is
correct.
"...Beans for supper tonight, six o'clock.
Navy beans cooked in Oklahoma ham...
Got to eat 'em with a spoon, raw onions
and cornbread; nothing else...."
--Will Rogers
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230863#230863
<Bnbsp; Features Chat,
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.
nbsp; the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
================
=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,
_____
g=EF=BD=EF=BD
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: odd TX problem |
Good Evening Brett,
I am certainly no electronics expert, but I do have a lot of experience
using transmitters when the generator is not putting out any power at all.
Since the transmitting load is an intermittent load, it is not even require
d
to be considered when we figure whether or not the generator/alternator is
of an adequate size to use in our airplanes. For loads like transmitting,
actuating the landing gear, operating electric flaps, or even a landing ligh
t,
the idea is that the battery should be able to carry all of those intermitte
nt
loads. If the voltage is going so low that it knocks the Transponder off the
line when the transmitter is keyed, there is something wrong beyond a small
or
under performing alternator.
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 2/18/2009 8:47:26 P.M. Central Standard Time,
smithhb@tds.net writes:
The 430 is drawing 10A when transmitting, drawing down the bus voltage
enough to "kill" the transponder. Verify your alternator is putting out fu
ll
power.
Bret Smith
RV-9A N16BL
Blue Ridge, Ga
_www.FlightInnovations.com_ (http://www.flightinnovations.com/)
____________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of McFarlan
d, Randy
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: odd TX problem
I have 240 hrs on an RV7A experimental.
Just developed an interesting problem. When I transmit on mt Garmin 430 it
momentarily turns the Garmin 327 transponder Off. Then 327 will come back o
n
until the next time I key the Mic again.
Help, Ideas, wild ass guesses?
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com>
Sent: Wed Feb 18 11:12:05 2009
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Strobes & FAR Requirements
<emjones@charter.net>
Paul,
I wrote up a paper on this some years ago:
www.PerihelionDesign.com/downloads/aircraft_beacons_using_leds.pdf
But beware--I have some work to do on this. At the time LEDs could not quit
e
do the job. They can now. So my conclusion needs revision and I am adding
and revising some other details. The power and angle stuff is correct.
"...Beans for supper tonight, six o'clock.
Navy beans cooked in Oklahoma ham...
Got to eat 'em with a spoon, raw onions
and cornbread; nothing else...."
--Will Rogers
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
_http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230863#230863_
(http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230863#230863)
http://www.nbsp; the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
================
=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=03g=EF=BD=EF=BD
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Z-11 with a permanent magnet alternator |
Hi Bob,
I love this list and how active you are on it.
I am trying to finalize my electrical plan for my Aerovee powered
Sonex. I used Z-11 as my starting point but I have one remaining issue.
Since the 20 amp alternator on the Aerovee is a permanent magnet type,
I do not need to wire up the alt field as I would with a regular
alternator. The problem I have then is how do I kill the alternator if
I want to kill the master bus?
Do I need to? I would think so. With the master off and the battery
disconnected by the contactor, the alternator would still be powering
the master bus. Should I put a relay or contactor on the DC output
from the supplied regulator? I could connect the DC output to the
battery directly, which would allow the master bus to be killed by the
battery contactor but the alternator would still be live.
What are your thoughts?
Bob Meyers
Building Sonex 982SX Web Site Index http://meyersfamily.org/Sonex982.html
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| Subject: | Help needed obtaining filter |
Any ideas on how to filter out 100 milivolt spike that is very very sharp
with a duration of ~ 75 miliseconds coming from Kuntzleman strobe power
supply, then radiating off power lines and getting into my antenna?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Getting closer
to resolve to my tick, tick, ticking coming from Kuntzleman strobe. First
off It is the Vertex VXA-700 that is currently breaking squelch. I called
factory today and they said when you put an aircraft antenna on them, they
are sensitive and there is nothing they know of they can do to help me
out..
Next is high voltage from power supply, believe it or
not, using the shielded cable from Kuntzleman, doesn't matter much if you
have 1 foot or 25 feet, it just doesn't radiate that much.
The
Kuntzleman power supply radiates a lot no matter how you ground things,
but 8 feet away with antenna under worst case and 6 feet away under best
case eliminates tick, tick, ticking. So power supplies will live in
wingtips away from antennas.
The power wires are the culprit
at the moment! First off I am running Vertex on internal battery so it is
not dirty radio supply power causing the problem, it is RF jumping off the
supply lines getting into antenna!
Using shielded wire for
supply has more RF jumping off compared to twisted pair no matter how I
grounded shield! Can't explain it but it is so. Twisted pair is slightly
better than untwisted pair, running a separate ground wire to case of
power supplymakes no difference compared to grounding box to black
supply wire.
Using twisted pair with optimum grounding,
now has ticking only happening on lower and higher frequencies.
Observing supply power at battery on a scope, there are very very sharp
spikes 100 milivolts, with a duration of about 75 miliseconds that equate
perfectly to Vertex VXA-700 breaking squelch.
Anyone have any
ideas on how I can filter this out? And where to get parts needed?
I guess I will need two filters, one for each power supply at the
wingtips.
I ripped a choke bout an inch in diameter off a
junk copier laying around hangarand tried it in series with positive
at power supply, and also tried wrapping both twisted pair through it 3
times (all that would fit) with no change at all.
I see
Aircraft Spruce sells a DC line filter:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lsStrobeNoiseEl.php
More expensive (need 2) and heavier that I would like
Ron P.
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