---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 03/01/09: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:28 AM - Re: Revision 12 pre-published release (Joe) 2. 06:57 AM - Diode across main contactor fat terminals (user9253) 3. 07:24 AM - Polyfuses (user9253) 4. 08:15 AM - Re: Polyfuses (Dale Ensing) 5. 09:43 AM - Re: Revision 12 pre-published release (rckol) 6. 09:48 AM - Re: Wiring / Relay Question (Henry Trzeciakowski) 7. 12:27 PM - Re: LED Strobe Question for Bob Nuckolls (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 12:30 PM - Re: Z13 switches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 12:40 PM - LED position and landing lights (Bill Czygan) 10. 12:40 PM - LED position and landing lights (Bill Czygan) 11. 12:57 PM - Re: Polyfuses (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 01:47 PM - Re: LED Strobe Question for Bob Nuckolls (Bob Leffler) 13. 02:29 PM - Re: LED Strobe Question for Bob Nuckolls (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 02:33 PM - Rev 12A prepublication posting (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 03:03 PM - Re: Polyfuses (Peter Pengilly) 16. 03:35 PM - Re: LED Strobe Question for Bob Nuckolls (Daniel Langhout) 17. 04:57 PM - Re: LED Strobe Question for Bob Nuckolls (Ralph Finch) 18. 06:12 PM - Re: LED position and landing lights (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US) 19. 06:51 PM - Re: Re: Revision 12 pre-published release (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 07:26 PM - Re: Re: Revision 12 pre-published release (McFarland, Randy) 21. 07:45 PM - Re: Re: Revision 12 pre-published release (McFarland, Randy) 22. 11:03 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 23. 11:11 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:00 AM PST US From: "Joe" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Revision 12 pre-published release Bob, I sent you another private email with the subject "Aeroelectric Rev12A Proofread". Joe Gores ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:13 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Diode across main contactor fat terminals From: "user9253" On May 23, 2008, I posted a hypothetical question about Z-19 main battery charging current back feeding through the endurance bus and blowing fuses in the event that the main battery contactor fails and the pilot closes the endurance bus alternate feed switch. http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184591&sid=86e2d2ac21d95a18ce267b57c4fcd85e To prevent the above scenario, what if a diode were placed across the main contactor fat terminals? If the contactor fails, this diode would prevent the main battery from discharging. What are the disadvantages? If this diode shorted out (diode failures are rare), then the pilot would lose the ability to shut off the master switch in case of an electrical fire. However, current would be limited by the lead size of the diode, similar to a fusible link. The chances of an electrical fire and the diode failing on the same flight are extremely remote. If one is concerned that the diode failure would go unnoticed at engine shut down, then a warning chime could be connected to terminal 3 of the master switch. I think the odds of the main contactor failing and associated pilot error (with dangerous consequences) are greater than the odds of a diode failing (with minimal consequences). What are your thoughts? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232580#232580 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/contactor_diode_955.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:45 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Polyfuses From: "user9253" On page 50 of the April 2009 issue of Kitplanes Magazine, Bob Fritz installs Polyfuses in his Jabiru. He said that Polyfuses are used to protect electric window motors in cars. Have Polyfuses been proven in the field to be reliable? If so, can we or should we be using them in our airplanes? The endurance bus would be an ideal application for Polyfuses. They would protect the wiring by limiting the current. If they open, they will automatically reset upon removal of the overload condition. Bob Fritz put LEDs in parallel with the Polyfuses to indicate an overload condition. Advantages of the Polyfuse are light weight, low cost, do not take up panel space, and require no pilot action to reset. What do you think? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232584#232584 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:21 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Polyfuses The EXP BUS uses polyfuses. The unit is my RV-6A has been problem free/working successfully for five years. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 10:23 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Polyfuses > > > On page 50 of the April 2009 issue of Kitplanes Magazine, Bob Fritz > installs Polyfuses in his Jabiru. He said that Polyfuses are used to > protect electric window motors in cars. Have Polyfuses been proven in the > field to be reliable? If so, can we or should we be using them in our > airplanes? The endurance bus would be an ideal application for Polyfuses. > They would protect the wiring by limiting the current. If they open, they > will automatically reset upon removal of the overload condition. Bob > Fritz put LEDs in parallel with the Polyfuses to indicate an overload > condition. Advantages of the Polyfuse are light weight, low cost, do not > take up panel space, and require no pilot action to reset. What do you > think? > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232584#232584 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:54 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Revision 12 pre-published release From: "rckol" Bob, The discussion of Z14 is not consistent with the figure. The discussion indicates that the Z14 drawing depicts a 60 amp primary and a 20 amp secondary alternator, but the drawing itself shows (2) 40 amp alternators as you suggest might be used with a twin engine aircraft. -------- rck Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232599#232599 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:07 AM PST US From: "Henry Trzeciakowski" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring / Relay Question Bob I've placed my Battery Bus Firewall forward next to the Battery Contactor, just above the 60 amp current limiter. I have a 14 g (15 amp) wire going from battery bus thru firewall to a 7104 relay, as per the Heavy Duty E bus configuration. My question, should I use an additional relay or "something" between the Battery Bus (15amp - 14 g wire)-firewall forward - and the relay which is next to my E-Bus - mounted on sub-panel - for added safety? Thanks Henry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:18 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Revision 12 pre-published release > > I've put copies of the Revision 12 pages up at: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Rev12A/ > > . . . for your review. I'll be going to the printers > with it next week. In the mean time, knowing of any > potholes that folks can spot would be appreciated. > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:46 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED Strobe Question for Bob Nuckolls At 09:03 PM 2/28/2009, you wrote: > >Hello Bob, > >I have your 1000ma AEC9051 filtered BuckPuck and some Luxeon Star III and >Rebel Star LEDs (http://www.luxeonstar.com/). Also downloaded and read >through the various data sheets for your filtered setup, the BuckPucks, and >the Luxeon LEDs. The BuckPuck used in your AEC9051 is the -E model, >external control, which allows the output--and thus the LED--to be switched >on and off. The BuckPuck datasheet even has several simple circuit diagrams >showing how to reduce the current and set up strobed LEDs...but lacking in >their diagrams and my head is any knowledge of how to make a strobe (pulse) >logic circuit. > >I'm thinking that the brightest neutral white LEDs (e.g. Endor Rebel - Cool >White, Tri-Emitter, 435 Lumens @ 700mA >http://www.luxeonstar.com/endor-rebel-cool-white-triemitter-435-lumens-700ma >-p-179.php), if pulsed, could substitute for a traditional gas tube strobe. >But it would need a logic circuit to pulse the BuckPuck control signal in a >strob-ish fashion...single, double, or triple wink, etc. Would you care to >design such a circuit and post? And maybe, if demand exists, offer it >builtin to your AEC9051s. We could do that. The question to be explored is whether or not any combination of LEDs driven by a 1000mA Buck-Puck provides adequate intensity to (1) be a useful anti-collison attention getter and (2) satisfy requirements levied upon us by FAR91.205 I saw LED anti-collision products from the likes of Whelen, Grimes, et. als. that circulated through the halls of Hawker-Beech for probably the last ten years. They all went to the notion of offering "approved" anti-collision lighting. I've not followed the evolution of those products as they were never part of my work assignment. But the last examples I saw were fitted with large arrays (dozens) of LED emitters. Of course, this technology is moving ahead at break-neck speed and I would not be surprised if components now exist that would make your suggestion practical. But the configuration of devices to provide both intensity and spherical spread of emissions needs to be addressed first. Doing electronics to drive it will be easy. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:30:54 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z13 switches At 01:21 AM 3/1/2009, you wrote: >I'm a big fan of simplicity when it comes to emergency situations >and the procedures that go along with it. With that concept in >mind, could the switches for the E-bus alternate feed and the Aux >Alt OFF/ON switches be combined into one two-pole switch? It seems >it might make a quicker transition from normal configuration with >the main alternator failed to operating with the standby alternator >powering battery bus and E-bus. The combined functions into one switch offers a single point of failure for more than one system. The goal of the architecture published is to avoid having a failure become an emergency. When the low voltage light comes on, if it took you a minute to change the system configuration for battery-only running . . . the outcome of your flight would no be altered. Another way of saying it is to suggest that low voltage in a failure tolerant design is never an emergency that begs for speedy and perhaps ill-considered or poorly executed actions. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:40:03 PM PST US From: Bill Czygan Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED position and landing lights What are the brightest LED's available? I'm thinking of position lights and also wonder what is state of the art. Could LED's be used for a real landing and taxi light or lights? Bill ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:03 PM PST US From: Bill Czygan Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED position and landing lights What are the brightest LED's available? I'm thinking of position lights and also wonder what is state of the art. Could LED's be used for a real landing and taxi light or lights? Bill ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Polyfuses At 10:13 AM 3/1/2009, you wrote: > > >The EXP BUS uses polyfuses. The unit is my RV-6A has been problem >free/working successfully for five years. >Dale Ensing > >----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" >To: >Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 10:23 AM >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Polyfuses > > >> >>On page 50 of the April 2009 issue of Kitplanes Magazine, Bob Fritz >>installs Polyfuses in his Jabiru. He said that Polyfuses are used >>to protect electric window motors in cars. Have Polyfuses been >>proven in the field to be reliable? If so, can we or should we be >>using them in our airplanes? The endurance bus would be an ideal >>application for Polyfuses. They would protect the wiring by >>limiting the current. If they open, they will automatically reset >>upon removal of the overload condition. Bob Fritz put LEDs in >>parallel with the Polyfuses to indicate an overload >>condition. Advantages of the Polyfuse are light weight, low cost, >>do not take up panel space, and require no pilot action to >>reset. What do you think? >>Joe These are http://www.matronics.com/search/ Search first on polyswitch and a second search on polyfuse. Also check this thread on the topic . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/expbusthd.html We looked at polyfuses at both Gates-Learjet and Beech/RAC/Hawker-Beech numerous times over the years and to date, I'm aware of no practical application of these parts into airframe wiring. They were originally intended for and serve quite nicely as overload protection devices inside and soldered to the etched circuit broads of an appliance. The TC aircraft guys (including your humble scribe) have yet to identify a warm-fuzzy use for these capable devices of specific utility. I experimented with some as back up temperature limiters in an ice-detector installation a few years ago. That was a 115VAC, 400Hz application. We made them work but ultimately went another route. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:21 PM PST US From: "Bob Leffler" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: LED Strobe Question for Bob Nuckolls 25.1401 Anti-collision Lights states: f) Minimum effective intensities for anticollision lights. Each anticollision light effective intensity must equal or exceed the applicable values in the following table. ------------------------------------------------------------ Effective Angle above or below the horizontal plane intensity (candles) ------------------------------------------------------------ 0 to 5........................................ 400 5 to 10....................................... 240 10 to 20...................................... 80 20 to 30...................................... 40 30 to 75...................................... 20 ------------------------------------------------------------ I wouldn't think that would be too difficult to do with Luxon Star IIIs. Nova was able to get 660+ lumens with just 4 LEDs. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 3:25 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED Strobe Question for Bob Nuckolls At 09:03 PM 2/28/2009, you wrote: > >Hello Bob, > >I have your 1000ma AEC9051 filtered BuckPuck and some Luxeon Star III and >Rebel Star LEDs (http://www.luxeonstar.com/). Also downloaded and read >through the various data sheets for your filtered setup, the BuckPucks, and >the Luxeon LEDs. The BuckPuck used in your AEC9051 is the -E model, >external control, which allows the output--and thus the LED--to be switched >on and off. The BuckPuck datasheet even has several simple circuit diagrams >showing how to reduce the current and set up strobed LEDs...but lacking in >their diagrams and my head is any knowledge of how to make a strobe (pulse) >logic circuit. >1401 >I'm thinking that the brightest neutral white LEDs (e.g. Endor Rebel - Cool >White, Tri-Emitter, 435 Lumens @ 700mA >http://www.luxeonstar.com/endor-rebel-cool-white-triemitter-435-lumens-700m a >-p-179.php), if pulsed, could substitute for a traditional gas tube strobe. >But it would need a logic circuit to pulse the BuckPuck control signal in a >strob-ish fashion...single, double, or triple wink, etc. Would you care to >design such a circuit and post? And maybe, if demand exists, offer it >builtin to your AEC9051s. We could do that. The question to be explored is whether or not any combination of LEDs driven by a 1000mA Buck-Puck provides adequate intensity to (1) be a useful anti-collison attention getter and (2) satisfy requirements levied upon us by FAR91.205 I saw LED anti-collision products from the likes of Whelen, Grimes, et. als. that circulated through the halls of Hawker-Beech for probably the last ten years. They all went to the notion of offering "approved" anti-collision lighting. I've not followed the evolution of those products as they were never part of my work assignment. But the last examples I saw were fitted with large arrays (dozens) of LED emitters. Of course, this technology is moving ahead at break-neck speed and I would not be surprised if components now exist that would make your suggestion practical. But the configuration of devices to provide both intensity and spherical spread of emissions needs to be addressed first. Doing electronics to drive it will be easy. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:48 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: LED Strobe Question for Bob Nuckolls At 03:50 PM 3/1/2009, you wrote: > > >25.1401 Anti-collision Lights states: > >f) Minimum effective intensities for anticollision lights. Each >anticollision light effective intensity must equal or exceed the applicable >values in the following table. >------------------------------------------------------------ >Effective >Angle above or below the horizontal plane intensity >(candles) >------------------------------------------------------------ >0 to 5........................................ 400 >5 to 10....................................... 240 >10 to 20...................................... 80 >20 to 30...................................... 40 >30 to 75...................................... 20 >------------------------------------------------------------ Keep in mind that these are contiguous coverage values measured on a circle. Unlike the helical gas filled tubes or even the halogen lamps of the old AeroFlash lights, the LED tends to be pretty directional with the rated output being measured on maximum output axis. See: http://www.philipslumileds.com/technology/radiationpatterns.cfm So the trick is to select an array of emitters and position them so that their patterns overlap to offer the light levels cited above wherein you can do a spherical study of the entire dome above the fixture and get readings that comply with the numbers in the chart. This could easily take dozens of emitters . . . Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:35 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Rev 12A prepublication posting I just finished a revision to the Alternator chapter and posted it along with change 1 to the Battery chapter at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Rev12A/ Thanks to all who have participated in combing the nits out of the text. I've received some additional responses from the sharp-eyed proof readers for the Battery chapter so I'll go to work on Change 2. Any assistance folks can offer on the Alternator chapter is most welcome too. I'm hoping to get the E-Book version to Rev 12 up on the website early next week . . . and get the files off to the printers for paper copies. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:58 PM PST US From: "Peter Pengilly" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Polyfuses My EXPBUS had been problem free for 7 years but is now giving occasional very short duration (momentary) power cuts. Really tricky to figure exactly what is going on. I thinking of ripping it out and installing a regular fuse block. Will also be much easier to add electrical items in the future. Peter RV-6A ~600 hours -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing Sent: 01 March 2009 16:13 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Polyfuses The EXP BUS uses polyfuses. The unit is my RV-6A has been problem free/working successfully for five years. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 10:23 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Polyfuses > > > On page 50 of the April 2009 issue of Kitplanes Magazine, Bob Fritz > installs Polyfuses in his Jabiru. He said that Polyfuses are used to > protect electric window motors in cars. Have Polyfuses been proven in the > field to be reliable? If so, can we or should we be using them in our > airplanes? The endurance bus would be an ideal application for Polyfuses. > They would protect the wiring by limiting the current. If they open, they > will automatically reset upon removal of the overload condition. Bob > Fritz put LEDs in parallel with the Polyfuses to indicate an overload > condition. Advantages of the Polyfuse are light weight, low cost, do not > take up panel space, and require no pilot action to reset. What do you > think? > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232584#232584 > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:58 PM PST US From: Daniel Langhout Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED Strobe Question for Bob Nuckolls Unfortunately, one rebel isn't even close to the required candela for a compliant strobe. To meet the the most stressing effective candela requirement (400 over an elevation range of +- 5 degrees) you really need a peak intensity of at least 600 candela over these angles. This is because the FAA's definition of effective candela is a function of the duration of the flash and it works out that you generally wouldn't want a flash duration of more than about 400 msecs and you would really rather have less. The flash duration of your typical xeon flash tube is much much shorter than that. At some point it becomes a "blink" instead of a "flash". At any rate, I have been working with a setup that uses 12 of these rebels arranged in a 1" circle and pulsed at 1 amp. This measured out at well over 750 candela on axis but the problem is that because of the lambertian distribution pattern of these LED's, the intensity falls off as you move off axis. At +- 60 degrees off axis, your down to about 1/2 the intensity which in this case is about 375 candela. A typical setup using 2 wingtip lights and one tail light has each wingtip light covering 110 degrees of azimuth and the tail light covering the remaining 140 to get the total 360 degrees around the aircraft. Now I believe that with the proper use of some reflectors to focus the output into the angles where its needed that this setup has enough output to meet the specs over a 110 to 140 degree azimuth - but that's with 12 of these devices! This could be driven with 4 BuckPucks controlled with a single Microchip PIC - in fact, that is the setup I used in my initial fiddling with these things. There is a diagram of how to hook this up in the BuckPuck documentation. The hardware is bone simple, but of course you now get to provide the functionality via software on the PIC. Pick your poison - hardware or software! I took the software route because it's much easier to change or tweak the functionality by modifying the code than by changing hardware. There is a reason the market is not just covered up with LED aviation anti collision lights - it's hard to do! Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 09:03 PM 2/28/2009, you wrote: >> >> >> Hello Bob, >> >> I have your 1000ma AEC9051 filtered BuckPuck and some Luxeon Star III >> and >> Rebel Star LEDs (http://www.luxeonstar.com/). Also downloaded and read >> through the various data sheets for your filtered setup, the >> BuckPucks, and >> the Luxeon LEDs. The BuckPuck used in your AEC9051 is the -E model, >> external control, which allows the output--and thus the LED--to be >> switched >> on and off. The BuckPuck datasheet even has several simple circuit >> diagrams >> showing how to reduce the current and set up strobed LEDs...but >> lacking in >> their diagrams and my head is any knowledge of how to make a strobe >> (pulse) >> logic circuit. >> >> I'm thinking that the brightest neutral white LEDs (e.g. Endor Rebel >> - Cool >> White, Tri-Emitter, 435 Lumens @ 700mA >> http://www.luxeonstar.com/endor-rebel-cool-white-triemitter-435-lumens-700ma >> >> -p-179.php), if pulsed, could substitute for a traditional gas tube >> strobe. >> But it would need a logic circuit to pulse the BuckPuck control >> signal in a >> strob-ish fashion...single, double, or triple wink, etc. Would you >> care to >> design such a circuit and post? And maybe, if demand exists, offer it >> builtin to your AEC9051s. > > We could do that. The question to be explored is whether or not > any combination of LEDs driven by a 1000mA Buck-Puck provides > adequate intensity to (1) be a useful anti-collison attention > getter and (2) satisfy requirements levied upon us by FAR91.205 > > I saw LED anti-collision products from the likes of Whelen, > Grimes, et. als. that circulated through the halls of Hawker-Beech > for probably the last ten years. They all went to the notion of > offering "approved" anti-collision lighting. I've not followed the > evolution of those products as they were never part of my work > assignment. But the last examples I saw were fitted with large > arrays (dozens) of LED emitters. > > Of course, this technology is moving ahead at break-neck > speed and I would not be surprised if components now exist > that would make your suggestion practical. But the configuration > of devices to provide both intensity and spherical spread > of emissions needs to be addressed first. Doing electronics > to drive it will be easy. > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:06 PM PST US From: "Ralph Finch" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: LED Strobe Question for Bob Nuckolls My comments are interspersed in the quoted message: > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 3:34 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED Strobe Question for Bob Nuckolls > > > Unfortunately, one rebel isn't even close to the required candela for a > compliant strobe. To meet the the most stressing effective candela > requirement (400 over an elevation range of +- 5 degrees) you really > need a peak intensity of at least 600 candela over these angles. This > is because the FAA's definition of effective candela is a function of > the duration of the flash and it works out that you generally wouldn't > want a flash duration of more than about 400 msecs and you would really > rather have less. The flash duration of your typical xeon flash tube > is much much shorter than that. Assuming the LED's light output is constant over the flash duration, a longer duration works in our favor. At 200ms for instance the FAA's effective I (measured in cd) is 1/2 the LED output. That is, one might want to assume 800 cd required. > measured out at well over 750 candela on axis but the problem is that > because of the lambertian distribution pattern of these LED's, the > intensity falls off as you move off axis. OK, but Luxeon makes high quality but cheap lenses to concentrate the light, For instance this elliptical lens. (http://www.luxeonstar.com/polymer-optics-6%C2%B0-x-25%C2%B0-collimator-with -holder-fits-rebel-leds-p-423.php) Also they can be overdriven and produce up to double their rated output (Fig. 10 in http://www.luxeonstar.com/polymer-optics-6%C2%B0-x-25%C2%B0-collimator-with- holder-fits-rebel-leds-p-423.php) > There is a reason the market is not just covered up with LED aviation > anti collision lights - it's hard to do! I still believe it's not that hard, but commercially unlikely...the only market is the experimental market. Another possibility is forward recognition lights...a substitute for wig-wagged landing lights. One or two Rebel Stars in each wingtip, say one facing forward, one at an outward angle, with lens to focus the light further, blinking at 0.5 to 2 Hz....would it be noticed from a few thousand yards? Would you mind posting the hardware diagram for the Microchip PIC you used? Maybe an example code? Hey, these are experimental airplanes :-) Thanks, Ralph Finch ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:43 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED position and landing lights From: rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US Hi Bill "> What are the brightest LED's available? I'm thinking of position lights > and also wonder what is state of the art. Could LED's be used for a real > landing and taxi light or lights?" You can have a look at what I chose for Landing and Taxi LEDs @ http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album271&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php and LED position lights@ http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album278&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php still batteling with Kuntzleman strobe noise, I traded in my Double Magnum which was mounted in fuse, for two single units that strobe twice as much each head but are now located at the wingtips. Getting close to a resolution, but if i had to do it again would bite the bullet and get at least a Whelen power supply. Note that I melted a lens by running the head inside the hangar for over an hour chasing noise. The original power supply drives head half as hard as the new singles, thus new power supplies makes head getit get hotterl. Ron Parigoris > > Bill > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:45 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Revision 12 pre-published release At 11:40 AM 3/1/2009, you wrote: > >Bob, > >The discussion of Z14 is not consistent with the figure. The >discussion indicates that the Z14 drawing depicts a 60 amp primary >and a 20 amp secondary alternator, but the drawing itself shows (2) >40 amp alternators as you suggest might be used with a twin engine aircraft. > >-------- >rck Yeah . . . but keep in mind that these are architecture drawings, not recipes for success. Z-14 has been installed on Twin Comanches down to RV-7s with a variety of mixes for alternators (and in the case of the Comanche, starters too). I should probably remove all size designators from the alternators. I'll mull that over for the next slice to the Z-figures. Thanks for the input! Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Revision 12 pre-published release From: "McFarland, Randy" DQoNCi0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UgLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IG93bmVyLWFlcm9lbGVjdHJp Yy1saXN0LXNlcnZlckBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tIDxvd25lci1hZXJvZWxlY3RyaWMtbGlzdC1zZXJ2 ZXJAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbT4NClRvOiBhZXJvZWxlY3RyaWMtbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tIDxh ZXJvZWxlY3RyaWMtbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tPg0KU2VudDogU3VuIE1hciAwMSAxODo0OTow NiAyMDA5DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogQWVyb0VsZWN0cmljLUxpc3Q6IFJlOiBSZXZpc2lvbiAxMiBw cmUtcHVibGlzaGVkIHJlbGVhc2UNCg0KLS0+IEFlcm9FbGVjdHJpYy1MaXN0IG1lc3NhZ2UgcG9z dGVkIGJ5OiAiUm9iZXJ0IEwuIE51Y2tvbGxzLCBJSUkiIDxudWNrb2xscy5ib2JAYWVyb2VsZWN0 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Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Revision 12 pre-published release From: "McFarland, Randy" DQoNCi0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UgLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IG93bmVyLWFlcm9lbGVjdHJp Yy1saXN0LXNlcnZlckBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tIDxvd25lci1hZXJvZWxlY3RyaWMtbGlzdC1zZXJ2 ZXJAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbT4NClRvOiBhZXJvZWxlY3RyaWMtbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tIDxh ZXJvZWxlY3RyaWMtbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tPg0KU2VudDogU3VuIE1hciAwMSAxODo0OTow NiAyMDA5DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogQWVyb0VsZWN0cmljLUxpc3Q6IFJlOiBSZXZpc2lvbiAxMiBw cmUtcHVibGlzaGVkIHJlbGVhc2UNCg0KLS0+IEFlcm9FbGVjdHJpYy1MaXN0IG1lc3NhZ2UgcG9z dGVkIGJ5OiAiUm9iZXJ0IEwuIE51Y2tvbGxzLCBJSUkiIDxudWNrb2xscy5ib2JAYWVyb2VsZWN0 cmljLmNvbT4NCg0KQXQgMTE6NDAgQU0gMy8xLzIwMDksIHlvdSB3cm90ZToNCj4tLT4gQWVyb0Vs ZWN0cmljLUxpc3QgbWVzc2FnZSBwb3N0ZWQgYnk6ICJyY2tvbCIgPHJja29sQGthZWhsZXJzLmNv bT4NCj4NCj5Cb2IsDQo+DQo+VGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gb2YgWjE0IGlzIG5vdCBjb25zaXN0ZW50 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Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * AeroElectric-List.FAQ - Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:44 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.