Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Alt/Batt switch question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 04:46 PM - Re: Balum Construction (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 04:54 PM - Re: Z-19 + Ford regulator killing batteries? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 04:55 PM - Re: Re: Balum Construction (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Balum Construction (currydon@bellsouth.net)
6. 08:11 PM - Re: Z-19 + Ford regulator killing batteries? (Mark R. Supinski)
7. 09:42 PM - Re: Alt/Batt switch question (westexflyboy)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Alt/Batt switch question |
At 02:14 AM 3/22/2009, you wrote:
><airplanedriver@gmail.com>
>
>[quote="nuckollsr(at)cox.net"]At 04:47 PM 3/26/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
> > You might want to include it in the pre-flight checklist by
> closing the cross tie, turn aux battery and alternator OFF to see
> that the aux bus stays lit then return the system to the flight configuration.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
>Bob, am I understanding correctly that it is acceptable close the
>crossfeed switch with both alternators and batteries turned on and
>functioning normally? Perhaps I am imagining a myth - that the two
>alternators are somehow phased differently and cannot apply power to
>the same bus at the same time.
>
>I, for one, would really appreciate both pre-flight and in-flight
>failure checklists for Z-14 to dispell all misunderstandings.
Z-14 is two INDEPENDENT electrical systems intended
to operate in complete isolation from each other
except for (1) perhaps closing the crossfeed contactor
to use both batteries for starting or (2) being able
to power SOME loads from the opposite system in case
of alternator failure of one side.
It does take some special regulators to get two
alternators or generators to peacefully co-exist
on the same bus. I've got a set of z-figures check
lists in progress somewhere. I'll see if I can
find them.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Balum Construction |
At 01:37 PM 3/22/2009, you wrote:
>
>Can RG-400 coax be used to build a balum for a whisker-type VOR antenna? Don
400 is the preferred material. This modern coax easily
withstands soldering temperatures. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/BALUN/Balun_Fabrication.html
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Antenna/BALUN_Analysis.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Antenna/VOR-LOC_ANT_w_BALUN.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/Popular_Antenna_Lore.pdf
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Z-19 + Ford regulator killing batteries? |
At 04:52 PM 3/22/2009, you wrote:
>Hello All-
>
>I have a system based on the Z-19 drawing for an EFI based
>airplane. Getting ready to fly for the first time, but I am now
>almost convinced my setup is killing the batteries for some
>reason. I have gone through 3 already over the last 16 months just
>testing out the airplane & running the engine in test spurts.
>
>Here's the symptoms, hopefully someone can shed some light:
> * Recommended Ford regulator
> * 2x UB 12220 22AH batteries (3" w x 7" l x 6.5" h)
> * 80 Amp alternator
>My engine monitor keeps complaining that the alternator is putting
>out too high a voltage (typically 15.0 - 15.5 after start with the
>engine running). Don't know if this is just because the batteries
>were just discharged starting the engine -- haven't had long enough
>engine runs to see if the load drops.
No . . . the regulator has one responsibility only. HOLD the
bus at 14.2 to 14.6 volts under ALL conditions where the
alternator is turning fast enough to shoulder system load
AND recharge the battery.
>All the batteries fail the same way -- suddenly they won't hold a
>charge & output only 3v or so. Just had another one fail today.
>After doing some additional reading, I am starting to wonder whether
>these seal mat batteries are such a good idea. The literature
>suggests they are quite finicky on how to recharge.
EVERY battery hates to be charged at 15+ volts. The
difference is that you can pour water into some
batteries . . . others simply become re-cycle
fodder.
>I must confess that I may have killed the batteries myself. I have
>an external battery cart & I have simply been hooking the batteries
>up & setting the charger to 40amp when the batteries were running
>down. The batteries seem to want an initial charge of 3 amps or
>less before upping the amperage.
An external power supply should ALSO be set
for 14.2 volts. You say it's a "battery cart"
with a current setting? Sounds like an AC mains
power supply of some kind. 14.2 volts is the
rule. Recharge rates are a problem only if
you deeply discharge the batteries. If you have
ground power available, then there's no good
reason to deeply discharge the battries.
It sounds like lack of attention to voltage control
is the root cause of your difficulties.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Balum Construction |
At 04:39 PM 3/22/2009, you wrote:
>
> > providing you cut the length proportional to the particular vf of the
>cable used.
>
>So just copying the dimensions of the old balum (which was made of RG58)
>won't work? How do you figure the vf of RG400 and how do you convert that
>information into info useful in determining the lengths of the various
>segments of the new RG400 balum? Or is there a standard template with
>lengths for making a balum from RG400?
The BALUN shown on my website is cut for 1/4-wave
in free space. The coax velocity factor is not
a driver for fabricating this version, hence any
coax can be used. However, attempting to solder to
RG58 with those WWII plastics can be a challenge.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Balum Construction |
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Z-19 + Ford regulator killing batteries? |
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 5:52 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 04:52 PM 3/22/2009, you wrote:
>
> Hello All-
>
> I have a system based on the Z-19 drawing for an EFI based airplane.
> Getting ready to fly for the first time, but I am now almost convinced my
> setup is killing the batteries for some reason. I have gone through 3
> already over the last 16 months just testing out the airplane & running the
> engine in test spurts.
>
> Here's the symptoms, hopefully someone can shed some light:
>
> - Recommended Ford regulator
> - 2x UB 12220 22AH batteries (3" w x 7" l x 6.5" h)
> - 80 Amp alternator
>
> My engine monitor keeps complaining that the alternator is putting out too
> high a voltage (typically 15.0 - 15.5 after start with the engine running).
> Don't know if this is just because the batteries were just discharged
> starting the engine -- haven't had long enough engine runs to see if the
> load drops.
>
>
> No . . . the regulator has one responsibility only. HOLD the
> bus at 14.2 to 14.6 volts under ALL conditions where the
> alternator is turning fast enough to shoulder system load
> AND recharge the battery.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
So this suggests that the regulator has a problem. It is certainly
generating bus voltages in excess of 15.0v -- I have 2 devices which display
voltage & both agree within 1v of each other that voltages are above 15. I
can't imagine the regulator is adjustable, so it must be a dud, correct?
--------------------------------------------------------
> All the batteries fail the same way -- suddenly they won't hold a charge &
> output only 3v or so. Just had another one fail today.
>
> After doing some additional reading, I am starting to wonder whether these
> seal mat batteries are such a good idea. The literature suggests they are
> quite finicky on how to recharge.
>
>
> EVERY battery hates to be charged at 15+ volts. The
> difference is that you can pour water into some
> batteries . . . others simply become re-cycle
> fodder.
>
> I must confess that I may have killed the batteries myself. I have an
> external battery cart & I have simply been hooking the batteries up &
> setting the charger to 40amp when the batteries were running down. The
> batteries seem to want an initial charge of 3 amps or less before upping the
> amperage.
>
>
> An external power supply should ALSO be set
> for 14.2 volts. You say it's a "battery cart"
> with a current setting? Sounds like an AC mains
> power supply of some kind. 14.2 volts is the
> rule. Recharge rates are a problem only if
> you deeply discharge the batteries. If you have
> ground power available, then there's no good
> reason to deeply discharge the battries.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
The 110v charger allows one to set how many amps to charge with & for how
long -- it puts out 14.5V while charging. However -- *EVERY* AGM battery I
have seen claims a maximum charging amps of 7A or less. This confuses me
since I don't know how to control this when they are being recharged via the
alternator. Some I have seen say "Initial" charging amps, others say Max.
Here is what I see in the manufacturer's literature for my batteries:
Charge Method (Constant Voltage) - Cycle Use - Initial Current - 7.7A or
smaller
Charge Method (Constant Voltage) - Cycle Use - Control voltage - 14.5 - 14.9
V
Charge Method (Constant Voltage) - Float Use - Control Voltage - 13.6 - 13.8
V
There is no good reason to discharge the batteries... except when one
forgets to turn off the master switch & the ECU quietly continues running
all week as the acft sits in the hangar.
--------------------------------------------------------
>
> It sounds like lack of attention to voltage control
> is the root cause of your difficulties.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
If certainly has my attention now! If step one is to replace that
regulator, I'll do it forthwith. If another step is to follow a different
procedure when ground charging (or get a smaller charger) I'll certainly do
that too.
Thanks, Bob -- appreciate the help.
Mark
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Alt/Batt switch question |
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 02:14 AM 3/22/2009, you wrote:
> I've got a set of z-figures checklists in progress somewhere. I'll see if I can
find them.
> Bob . . .
Thank you, Bob. You've pretty much provided the the engine start checklist above
and in previous posts. Assuming the two alternators are 60A and 20A respectively,
let me propose an in-flight failure checklist to get the ball rolling.
The will assume the pilot has been trained regarding load analysis of the systems
and devices installed in the aircraft, and two electronic ignition systems
connected directly to the positive and negative terminals of the two batteries
separately:
Scenario #1
AUX Low Volts Lamp Illuminates (20A)
Check AUX ammeter. Discharge indicates probable AUX alternator failure. Recycle
AUX Master switch to BATT then back to ALT. If discharge and low volts continues,
move AUX Master to BATT.
Close Crossfeed Switch.
Check MAIN ammeter. Discharge indicates system overload. Reduce electrical load.
Turn off all devices not required for flight safety. If positive charge indicated,
non-essential devices may be re-introduced one device at a time while
monitoring ammeter.
Check AUX Low Volts Lamp - DARK
If Low Volts lamp remains illuminated and ammeter continues to show discharge after
turning off all devices, AUX system SHORT is indicated. OPEN Crossfeed switch,
and move AUX Master to OFF.
Continue flight to nearest safe landing area.
Scenario #2
MAIN Low Volts Lamp Illuminates (60A)
Check MAIN ammeter. Discharge indicates probable MAIN alternator failure. Recycle
MAIN Master switch to BATT then back to ALT. If still no charge, move MAIN
Master to BATT.
Close Crossfeed Switch.
Turn off ALL devices not required for safe continuation of the flight.
Check AUX ammeter. Discharge indicates system overload. Reduce electrical load
by intermittent and temporary use of essential devices (i.e. communications
and navigation). Disconnect handheld GPS from aircraft bus and use self-contained
batteries. Reduce electrical load until positive charge indicated.
Check MAIN Low Volts Lamp - DARK
If Low Volts lamp remains illuminated and ammeter continues to show discharge after
turning off ALL devices, MAIN system SHORT is indicated. OPEN Crossfeed
switch, and move MAIN Master switch to OFF.
In case of MAIN alternator failure at night or in Instrument Meteorologic Conditions,
continue to nearest safe landing destination.
--------
Chase Snodgrass
Presidio, Texas
www.flybigbend.com
Simultaneous RV-10 twins under construction
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