Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:04 AM - Rotax 912ULS starter (icrashrc)
2. 06:00 AM - Re: EFIS brown out protection (Bob-tcw)
3. 06:20 AM - Re: EFIS brown out protection (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
4. 07:35 AM - Re: EFIS brown out protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 08:01 AM - Re: EFIS brown out protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:37 AM - SD-8 Components on Firewall? (rckol)
7. 08:54 AM - Re: MS25041 PTT Lamp (Henry Trzeciakowski)
8. 09:27 AM - Re: ICom headset adapter (Radioflyer)
9. 12:06 PM - Re: Re: MS25041 PTT Lamp (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: MS25041 PTT Lamp (Henry Trzeciakowski)
11. 12:40 PM - Re: SD-8 Components on Firewall? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 08:38 PM - GNS 430 question (Chris Stone)
13. 08:49 PM - E-bus relay (Chris Stone)
14. 10:19 PM - Re: GNS 430 question (Robert McCallum)
Message 1
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Subject: | Rotax 912ULS starter |
Does anyone know the amp draw on the newer model 912 ULS starter?
--------
Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236618#236618
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Subject: | Re: EFIS brown out protection |
Bill, The IPS system is a true DC:DC power converter that takes input
power from the power bus, and if necessary boosts the voltage back up to
12 volts on its output. The output of the IPS is used to run equipment
that you want to remain up during engine cranking. For input bus
voltages from 5- 12 volts, the IPS system maintains a supply voltage to
EFIS, GPS or engine monitors at 12 volts. Unlike an auxilary
battery, the 4 amp IPS weighs 8 oz., requires no extra steering diodes,
and is maintenance free. Hope this helps, detailed drawings and
specifications are available at this direct link:
http://www.tcwtech.com/IPS-12v.htm
Thanks,
Bob Newman
TCW Technologies, LLC.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Schlatterer
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:16 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS brown out protection
Bob, just curious, easy to see how it might handle a surge but how
does it handle a voltage sag from a single battery during starting ??
Thanks Bill S
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Bob-tcw
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:34 AM
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS brown out protection
Paul, One alternative to an auxiliary battery for voltage sag
protection is a product we developed at TCW Technologies. Intelligent
Power Stabilizer, IPS, provides regulated power to critical electronics
with battery voltages ranging from 5-15 volts. This product was
specifically developed to keep EFIS, GPS and engine monitors up and
running during engine starting. It weighs less than 1 lb and requires
no maintenance. All the details are avialable at www.tcwtech.com
Thanks,
Bob Newman
TCW Technologies, LLC.
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Eckenroth
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:33 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS brown out protection
Would an aux battery feed to the E Buss through a solid state
contactor keep the voltage from sagging if the contactor is energized by
the starter switch. The E Buss feed from the Main Buss is through a
diode.
I will appreciate any facts and/ or opinions,
Paul Eckenroth
N509RV
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Message 3
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Subject: | EFIS brown out protection |
Bob, just curious, easy to see how it might handle a surge but how does
it
handle a voltage sag from a single battery during starting ??
Thanks Bill S
My understanding of this device is that it will
boost up the voltage and maintain 12V even if the battery voltage drops
down
to near 5 volts, thus there will be no sag on it's output. This is
unlike
the simple linear regulator which will only regulate a higher voltage
down
to, say 12 volts, and if its input goes below the 12 volt threshold,
then
the output will also drop down.
Roger
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Bob-tcw
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:34 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS brown out protection
Paul, One alternative to an auxiliary battery for voltage sag
protection is
a product we developed at TCW Technologies. Intelligent Power
Stabilizer,
IPS, provides regulated power to critical electronics with battery
voltages
ranging from 5-15 volts. This product was specifically developed to keep
EFIS, GPS and engine monitors up and running during engine starting.
It
weighs less than 1 lb and requires no maintenance. All the details
are
avialable at www.tcwtech.com
Thanks,
Bob Newman
TCW Technologies, LLC.
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: EFIS brown out protection |
At 08:11 PM 3/28/2009, you wrote:
>Bob
>
>Thanks for the heads up concerning the solid state contactor. It
>does indeed reverse feed when not activated. Does a relay such as S
>704-1 act more like a mechanical switch. Would it be reasonable to
>activate this relay using the start switch.
Sure. That's the design philosophy illustrated in
Figure Z-10/8. A small brownout support battery
is paralleled to the battery bus through the contacts
of an S704-1 relay (or any similar device). The
relay is energized at the same time as the starter
contactor insuring that the brownout support
battery is not taxed during the first 50 milliseconds
or so that the battery is spinning up the starter
armature. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/99_Saturn_SL1_2.gif
Of course, the e-bus loads are carried for the
duration of a cranking event (time the starter
button is depressed). This is longer than the
system is "vulnerable" to brown out. Once the
starter armature accelerates and is drawing
more normal currents, the battery voltage comes
back up to levels that probably supports
vulnerable equipment.
I think if it were my airplane, I'd simply
start the engine before expecting all the
electro-whizzies to be ready for flight.
All were talking about here is a tailoring
of the pre-flight checklist. I'm not suggesting
that sophisticated power conditioning devices
will not function as advertised. But it
seems an unnecessarily complex solution to
a 100 millisecond "problem" that occurs once
per flight cycle before you've even departed
the tie-down location. Rearrange the sequence
of events during preflight and the problem
goes away.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 5
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Subject: | EFIS brown out protection |
At 10:16 PM 3/28/2009, you wrote:
>Bob, just curious, easy to see how it might handle a surge but how
>does it handle a voltage sag from a single battery during starting ??
>
>Thanks Bill S
Not sure which Bob you're addressing . . .
There is a relatively new class of circuits developed
as high efficiency voltage regulators. Unlike their
linear ancestors, these circuits not only produce
conditioned output BELOW input voltage, they can
also STEP UP a too low voltage. Pretty smart gizmos.
Indeed, these circuits SHOULD have been part of the
original design goals for those "weak sisters" we're
struggling with now.
The technology is quite common in the TC aircraft
world where electro-whizzies are DESIGNED to function
as advertised with any input voltage over a wide
range . . . usually 9 to 32 volts.
I find it difficult to be benevolent toward my
contemporaries who bring products to the OBAM
aircraft community that ignore decades of lessons-
learned. We shouldn't be having this conversation
here on the List.
I have never produced a device that required an
system integrator, installer or a pilot to take special
notice of some insufficiency in performance. That's
what DO-160/Mil-STD-704 is all about. The guys who
play in the big sandbox have enjoyed the benefits
of this thoughtful design process for decades.
It's disappointing to see neat and useful
products come to the marketplace, crafted with
perhaps thousands of hours of electronics and
software development time crying out for perhaps
an additional 50 hours development time devoted
to power input conditioning.
We have some choices.
(1) Do their job for them and install external power
conditioning while driving up complexity, cost,
weight and adding single points of failure for multiple
equipment items.
(2) We can add minimalist brownout protection schemes
like Z-10/8.
(3) We can re-sequence preflight events to work around
vulnerabilities.
(4) Above all, we should put suppliers of performance
deficient devices on notice that they've fallen short
of the best-we-know-how-to-do . . . and we're NOT
happy about it.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 6
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Subject: | SD-8 Components on Firewall? |
The B&C drawing for the SD-8 regulator (BC219) contains note 3 that states:
"Max ambient temperature 120 degrees F"
and their wiring diagram (504-500) contains note 1 that states:
"Regulator and capacitor should be mounted in a cool place and should be mounted
on the cockpit side of the firewall".
This drawing also shows a 15 amp in-line fuse on one of the Dyno output legs, which
I assume is intended to protect the circuit extending into the cockpit.
>From the grounding locations of the SD-8 components on Z-13/8-Q (firewall) and
the absence of the fuse on the dyno output, I infer that the regulator, capacitor,
diode and relay are intended to be mounted on the engine side of the firewall
with the rest of the DC supply and fat wire switching components.
Are these changes from the manufacture's recommendations based on upgrades to the
components, providing blast tube cooling, bench testing, good empirical field
results or ?
--------
rck
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236662#236662
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: MS25041 PTT Lamp |
Bob:
I'm installing a couple of these Lamps in my 9A - 1 for Oil Pressure and 1
for Low Voltage Protection. Now, I've researched these lamps and proper
circuit runs for a couple of months both on Aeroelectric and other homebuilt
sites. There is "some" info out there, some of which is confusing and some
that make sense.
What I've done is attach a drawing ( a jpeg & word doc)of what I determine
to be the circuit layout for Oil Pressure and Low Voltage. Can you please
take a look at these and let me know if they're correct and or make
corrections where needed.
Appreciate your input.
Henry
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: ICom headset adapter |
I only have an IC-A22, but if the IC-A5 is similar, and I believe it is exactly
the same, it would be easy to make up your own headset/mic patch cable. The toughest
part will be locating the mini phono-plugs and jacks, especially the mic
jack. You'll probably have to order the mic jack from B&C or Steinair. So,
new parts alone can easily cost about $20.
Here is what I think is done. Two mini phono-plugs go into the A5. The fatter plug
(.136" OD) is wired to a headset jack. Sleeve to ground and ring to audio.
The thinner plug (.098" OD) is wired to a mic jack. Sleeve to ground, ring to
mic audio, and tip is used for mic key (i.e., PTT switch). If you need to use
a remote PTT switch, just wire a SPST switch from the mic "tip" to the mic "sleeve".
However, be aware that if you don't wire-in a remote PTT switch, you can
still "key" the mic by pushing the transmit button on the A5.
--Jose
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236669#236669
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: MS25041 PTT Lamp |
At 02:58 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
>Bob:
>
>I'm installing a couple of these Lamps in my 9A - 1 for Oil Pressure and 1
>for Low Voltage Protection. Now, I've researched these lamps and proper
>circuit runs for a couple of months both on Aeroelectric and other homebuilt
>sites. There is "some" info out there, some of which is confusing and some
>that make sense.
>
>What I've done is attach a drawing ( a jpeg & word doc)of what I determine
>to be the circuit layout for Oil Pressure and Low Voltage. Can you please
>take a look at these and let me know if they're correct and or make
>corrections where needed.
>
>Appreciate your input.
>
>Henry
What you have illustrated will work fine.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: MS25041 PTT Lamp |
Thanks Bob
Appreciate it...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: MS25041 PTT Lamp
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 02:58 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
> >Bob:
> >
> >I'm installing a couple of these Lamps in my 9A - 1 for Oil Pressure and
1
> >for Low Voltage Protection. Now, I've researched these lamps and proper
> >circuit runs for a couple of months both on Aeroelectric and other
homebuilt
> >sites. There is "some" info out there, some of which is confusing and
some
> >that make sense.
> >
> >What I've done is attach a drawing ( a jpeg & word doc)of what I
determine
> >to be the circuit layout for Oil Pressure and Low Voltage. Can you
please
> >take a look at these and let me know if they're correct and or make
> >corrections where needed.
> >
> >Appreciate your input.
> >
> >Henry
>
> What you have illustrated will work fine.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: SD-8 Components on Firewall? |
At 10:35 AM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
>
>The B&C drawing for the SD-8 regulator (BC219) contains note 3 that states:
>
> "Max ambient temperature 120 degrees F"
>
>and their wiring diagram (504-500) contains note 1 that states:
>
>"Regulator and capacitor should be mounted in a cool place and
>should be mounted on the cockpit side of the firewall".
>
>This drawing also shows a 15 amp in-line fuse on one of the Dyno
>output legs, which I assume is intended to protect the circuit
>extending into the cockpit.
>
>
> >From the grounding locations of the SD-8 components on Z-13/8-Q
> (firewall) and the absence of the fuse on the dyno output, I infer
> that the regulator, capacitor, diode and relay are intended to be
> mounted on the engine side of the firewall with the rest of the DC
> supply and fat wire switching components.
>
>Are these changes from the manufacture's recommendations based on
>upgrades to the components, providing blast tube cooling, bench
>testing, good empirical field results or ?
Probably none of the above. There's been a lot of SD-8 hardware
installed on the engine side of the firewall. At the same time,
to my knowledge there has been no detailed thermal study of
SD-8 regulator/rectifier performance. If the 120F value is indeed a
"hard" limit, then I would be reluctant to install this device
in any aircraft. The LOWEST practical operating domain for
TC aircraft calls for continuous operation at 55C (131F) and
a short time operating temperature at 70C(158F). This is called
out for temperature controlled compartments and not exceeding
15,000' pressure altitude.
Out on the firewall of single engine airplanes we are advised
to go with DO-160 Category B3 where the manufacturer tailors
his design to meet airframe design goals. This is generally
70C continuous and 100C short time operating.
If one starts with a clean piece of paper to meet design
goals, it is a rigorous but not difficult task. I'm guessing
but it's a fair bet that B&C (like many other manufacturers)
is recommending the most benign environment possible for
the installation of their products. Unfortunately, the most
benign benign location in the aircraft is probably in the
pilot's lap. Lacking hard design data to offer comfort in
the most practical locations (firewall fwd or behind panel
where all the convection heat gathers), the next best bet
is not to ask for the pilot to hold it in his lap and WAG it.
Now, there are probably places on the forward side of
your firewall that are COOLER than places on the back
side. This is because once airborne, there's a lot of
air movement (which can make 100F air a better cooling
medium than 60F still air). If it were my airplane,
I'd ask B&C to give me a maximum allowable case temperature
for full load operations. Then thermocouple the case
on a firewall forward installation and see how it
goes. Add an offset for maximum anticipated hot day
operations.
The vast majority of the time, I believe you'll find
that you're okay on the firewall. Just for grins,
if anyone has their SD-8 rectifier/regulator installed
on the aft side of the firewall, it would be interesting
to get a thermocouple measurement of free air vs. case
temperature at THAT location too.
If this sounds like a long answer that says, "I don't
know" . . . you're correct. Without specific knowledge
of design goals for the device combined with real data
confirming as-installed temperature conditions, all else is
hot-air and/or wishful-thinking.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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Subject: | GNS 430 question |
Hello Garmin experts...
In reviewing the Garmin 430 install manual the power wiring diagram shows two 5
amp CBs on the 2 of 3 grounds. This is in addition to CBs on all the positive
power supply lines. What does this accomplish? I can find nothing in the
text that provides an explanation.
Chris Stone
RV-8
Newberg, OR
>
>
Message 13
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Bob...
I see on some Z schematics you are suggesting a relay to switch the E-bus alt.
feed. My thought is that this adds another failure mode. I don't know what the
drop out voltage is for the 701 relay but might it drop out before the battery
goes completely dead when that last couple of minutes of battery life could
be crucial? Why wouldn't using a both poles of a two pole e-bus alt. feed toggle
switch be sufficient to carry 20 amps instead of the relay?
thanks...
Chris Stone
RV-8
Newberg, OR
>
>
Message 14
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Subject: | GNS 430 question |
Chris;
Not sure what you're looking at Chris. Rev M of the install manual Figure F-10 on page F-21 is the schematic for the typical installation of a GNS 430 and shows power through a 5A CB to pins 19, 20 on connector p4001 , power through a CB to pins 11, 12 of connector P4002(5A 28V or 10A 14V), and then pins 21, 22 of P4002, 77,78 of P4001, and 41 of P4006 all grounded. (no CB's) Where do you see CB's in the grounds? See page 108 of 132 at the following link. http://tinyurl.com/ccfsyq
Bob McC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chris
Stone
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 10:36 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GNS 430 question
Hello Garmin experts...
In reviewing the Garmin 430 install manual the power wiring diagram shows two 5
amp CBs on the 2 of 3 grounds. This is in addition to CBs on all the positive
power supply lines. What does this accomplish? I can find nothing in the
text that provides an explanation.
Chris Stone
RV-8
Newberg, OR
>
>
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