---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 03/29/09: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:04 AM - Rotax 912ULS starter (icrashrc) 2. 06:00 AM - Re: EFIS brown out protection (Bob-tcw) 3. 06:20 AM - Re: EFIS brown out protection (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 4. 07:35 AM - Re: EFIS brown out protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:01 AM - Re: EFIS brown out protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:37 AM - SD-8 Components on Firewall? (rckol) 7. 08:54 AM - Re: MS25041 PTT Lamp (Henry Trzeciakowski) 8. 09:27 AM - Re: ICom headset adapter (Radioflyer) 9. 12:06 PM - Re: Re: MS25041 PTT Lamp (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: MS25041 PTT Lamp (Henry Trzeciakowski) 11. 12:40 PM - Re: SD-8 Components on Firewall? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 08:38 PM - GNS 430 question (Chris Stone) 13. 08:49 PM - E-bus relay (Chris Stone) 14. 10:19 PM - Re: GNS 430 question (Robert McCallum) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:55 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Rotax 912ULS starter From: "icrashrc" Does anyone know the amp draw on the newer model 912 ULS starter? -------- Scott www.ill-EagleAviation.com do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236618#236618 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:47 AM PST US From: "Bob-tcw" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS brown out protection Bill, The IPS system is a true DC:DC power converter that takes input power from the power bus, and if necessary boosts the voltage back up to 12 volts on its output. The output of the IPS is used to run equipment that you want to remain up during engine cranking. For input bus voltages from 5- 12 volts, the IPS system maintains a supply voltage to EFIS, GPS or engine monitors at 12 volts. Unlike an auxilary battery, the 4 amp IPS weighs 8 oz., requires no extra steering diodes, and is maintenance free. Hope this helps, detailed drawings and specifications are available at this direct link: http://www.tcwtech.com/IPS-12v.htm Thanks, Bob Newman TCW Technologies, LLC. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Schlatterer To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:16 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS brown out protection Bob, just curious, easy to see how it might handle a surge but how does it handle a voltage sag from a single battery during starting ?? Thanks Bill S ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob-tcw Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:34 AM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS brown out protection Paul, One alternative to an auxiliary battery for voltage sag protection is a product we developed at TCW Technologies. Intelligent Power Stabilizer, IPS, provides regulated power to critical electronics with battery voltages ranging from 5-15 volts. This product was specifically developed to keep EFIS, GPS and engine monitors up and running during engine starting. It weighs less than 1 lb and requires no maintenance. All the details are avialable at www.tcwtech.com Thanks, Bob Newman TCW Technologies, LLC. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Eckenroth To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:33 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS brown out protection Would an aux battery feed to the E Buss through a solid state contactor keep the voltage from sagging if the contactor is energized by the starter switch. The E Buss feed from the Main Buss is through a diode. I will appreciate any facts and/ or opinions, Paul Eckenroth N509RV href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:43 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS brown out protection Bob, just curious, easy to see how it might handle a surge but how does it handle a voltage sag from a single battery during starting ?? Thanks Bill S My understanding of this device is that it will boost up the voltage and maintain 12V even if the battery voltage drops down to near 5 volts, thus there will be no sag on it's output. This is unlike the simple linear regulator which will only regulate a higher voltage down to, say 12 volts, and if its input goes below the 12 volt threshold, then the output will also drop down. Roger _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob-tcw Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:34 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS brown out protection Paul, One alternative to an auxiliary battery for voltage sag protection is a product we developed at TCW Technologies. Intelligent Power Stabilizer, IPS, provides regulated power to critical electronics with battery voltages ranging from 5-15 volts. This product was specifically developed to keep EFIS, GPS and engine monitors up and running during engine starting. It weighs less than 1 lb and requires no maintenance. All the details are avialable at www.tcwtech.com Thanks, Bob Newman TCW Technologies, LLC. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:41 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS brown out protection At 08:11 PM 3/28/2009, you wrote: >Bob > >Thanks for the heads up concerning the solid state contactor. It >does indeed reverse feed when not activated. Does a relay such as S >704-1 act more like a mechanical switch. Would it be reasonable to >activate this relay using the start switch. Sure. That's the design philosophy illustrated in Figure Z-10/8. A small brownout support battery is paralleled to the battery bus through the contacts of an S704-1 relay (or any similar device). The relay is energized at the same time as the starter contactor insuring that the brownout support battery is not taxed during the first 50 milliseconds or so that the battery is spinning up the starter armature. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/99_Saturn_SL1_2.gif Of course, the e-bus loads are carried for the duration of a cranking event (time the starter button is depressed). This is longer than the system is "vulnerable" to brown out. Once the starter armature accelerates and is drawing more normal currents, the battery voltage comes back up to levels that probably supports vulnerable equipment. I think if it were my airplane, I'd simply start the engine before expecting all the electro-whizzies to be ready for flight. All were talking about here is a tailoring of the pre-flight checklist. I'm not suggesting that sophisticated power conditioning devices will not function as advertised. But it seems an unnecessarily complex solution to a 100 millisecond "problem" that occurs once per flight cycle before you've even departed the tie-down location. Rearrange the sequence of events during preflight and the problem goes away. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:54 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS brown out protection At 10:16 PM 3/28/2009, you wrote: >Bob, just curious, easy to see how it might handle a surge but how >does it handle a voltage sag from a single battery during starting ?? > >Thanks Bill S Not sure which Bob you're addressing . . . There is a relatively new class of circuits developed as high efficiency voltage regulators. Unlike their linear ancestors, these circuits not only produce conditioned output BELOW input voltage, they can also STEP UP a too low voltage. Pretty smart gizmos. Indeed, these circuits SHOULD have been part of the original design goals for those "weak sisters" we're struggling with now. The technology is quite common in the TC aircraft world where electro-whizzies are DESIGNED to function as advertised with any input voltage over a wide range . . . usually 9 to 32 volts. I find it difficult to be benevolent toward my contemporaries who bring products to the OBAM aircraft community that ignore decades of lessons- learned. We shouldn't be having this conversation here on the List. I have never produced a device that required an system integrator, installer or a pilot to take special notice of some insufficiency in performance. That's what DO-160/Mil-STD-704 is all about. The guys who play in the big sandbox have enjoyed the benefits of this thoughtful design process for decades. It's disappointing to see neat and useful products come to the marketplace, crafted with perhaps thousands of hours of electronics and software development time crying out for perhaps an additional 50 hours development time devoted to power input conditioning. We have some choices. (1) Do their job for them and install external power conditioning while driving up complexity, cost, weight and adding single points of failure for multiple equipment items. (2) We can add minimalist brownout protection schemes like Z-10/8. (3) We can re-sequence preflight events to work around vulnerabilities. (4) Above all, we should put suppliers of performance deficient devices on notice that they've fallen short of the best-we-know-how-to-do . . . and we're NOT happy about it. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:30 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Components on Firewall? From: "rckol" The B&C drawing for the SD-8 regulator (BC219) contains note 3 that states: "Max ambient temperature 120 degrees F" and their wiring diagram (504-500) contains note 1 that states: "Regulator and capacitor should be mounted in a cool place and should be mounted on the cockpit side of the firewall". This drawing also shows a 15 amp in-line fuse on one of the Dyno output legs, which I assume is intended to protect the circuit extending into the cockpit. >From the grounding locations of the SD-8 components on Z-13/8-Q (firewall) and the absence of the fuse on the dyno output, I infer that the regulator, capacitor, diode and relay are intended to be mounted on the engine side of the firewall with the rest of the DC supply and fat wire switching components. Are these changes from the manufacture's recommendations based on upgrades to the components, providing blast tube cooling, bench testing, good empirical field results or ? -------- rck Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236662#236662 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:51 AM PST US From: "Henry Trzeciakowski" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: MS25041 PTT Lamp Bob: I'm installing a couple of these Lamps in my 9A - 1 for Oil Pressure and 1 for Low Voltage Protection. Now, I've researched these lamps and proper circuit runs for a couple of months both on Aeroelectric and other homebuilt sites. There is "some" info out there, some of which is confusing and some that make sense. What I've done is attach a drawing ( a jpeg & word doc)of what I determine to be the circuit layout for Oil Pressure and Low Voltage. Can you please take a look at these and let me know if they're correct and or make corrections where needed. Appreciate your input. Henry ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:27:33 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: ICom headset adapter From: "Radioflyer" I only have an IC-A22, but if the IC-A5 is similar, and I believe it is exactly the same, it would be easy to make up your own headset/mic patch cable. The toughest part will be locating the mini phono-plugs and jacks, especially the mic jack. You'll probably have to order the mic jack from B&C or Steinair. So, new parts alone can easily cost about $20. Here is what I think is done. Two mini phono-plugs go into the A5. The fatter plug (.136" OD) is wired to a headset jack. Sleeve to ground and ring to audio. The thinner plug (.098" OD) is wired to a mic jack. Sleeve to ground, ring to mic audio, and tip is used for mic key (i.e., PTT switch). If you need to use a remote PTT switch, just wire a SPST switch from the mic "tip" to the mic "sleeve". However, be aware that if you don't wire-in a remote PTT switch, you can still "key" the mic by pushing the transmit button on the A5. --Jose Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236669#236669 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:06:17 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: MS25041 PTT Lamp At 02:58 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote: >Bob: > >I'm installing a couple of these Lamps in my 9A - 1 for Oil Pressure and 1 >for Low Voltage Protection. Now, I've researched these lamps and proper >circuit runs for a couple of months both on Aeroelectric and other homebuilt >sites. There is "some" info out there, some of which is confusing and some >that make sense. > >What I've done is attach a drawing ( a jpeg & word doc)of what I determine >to be the circuit layout for Oil Pressure and Low Voltage. Can you please >take a look at these and let me know if they're correct and or make >corrections where needed. > >Appreciate your input. > >Henry What you have illustrated will work fine. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:17 PM PST US From: "Henry Trzeciakowski" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: MS25041 PTT Lamp Thanks Bob Appreciate it... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:04 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: MS25041 PTT Lamp > > At 02:58 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote: > >Bob: > > > >I'm installing a couple of these Lamps in my 9A - 1 for Oil Pressure and 1 > >for Low Voltage Protection. Now, I've researched these lamps and proper > >circuit runs for a couple of months both on Aeroelectric and other homebuilt > >sites. There is "some" info out there, some of which is confusing and some > >that make sense. > > > >What I've done is attach a drawing ( a jpeg & word doc)of what I determine > >to be the circuit layout for Oil Pressure and Low Voltage. Can you please > >take a look at these and let me know if they're correct and or make > >corrections where needed. > > > >Appreciate your input. > > > >Henry > > What you have illustrated will work fine. > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:55 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Components on Firewall? At 10:35 AM 3/29/2009, you wrote: > >The B&C drawing for the SD-8 regulator (BC219) contains note 3 that states: > > "Max ambient temperature 120 degrees F" > >and their wiring diagram (504-500) contains note 1 that states: > >"Regulator and capacitor should be mounted in a cool place and >should be mounted on the cockpit side of the firewall". > >This drawing also shows a 15 amp in-line fuse on one of the Dyno >output legs, which I assume is intended to protect the circuit >extending into the cockpit. > > > >From the grounding locations of the SD-8 components on Z-13/8-Q > (firewall) and the absence of the fuse on the dyno output, I infer > that the regulator, capacitor, diode and relay are intended to be > mounted on the engine side of the firewall with the rest of the DC > supply and fat wire switching components. > >Are these changes from the manufacture's recommendations based on >upgrades to the components, providing blast tube cooling, bench >testing, good empirical field results or ? Probably none of the above. There's been a lot of SD-8 hardware installed on the engine side of the firewall. At the same time, to my knowledge there has been no detailed thermal study of SD-8 regulator/rectifier performance. If the 120F value is indeed a "hard" limit, then I would be reluctant to install this device in any aircraft. The LOWEST practical operating domain for TC aircraft calls for continuous operation at 55C (131F) and a short time operating temperature at 70C(158F). This is called out for temperature controlled compartments and not exceeding 15,000' pressure altitude. Out on the firewall of single engine airplanes we are advised to go with DO-160 Category B3 where the manufacturer tailors his design to meet airframe design goals. This is generally 70C continuous and 100C short time operating. If one starts with a clean piece of paper to meet design goals, it is a rigorous but not difficult task. I'm guessing but it's a fair bet that B&C (like many other manufacturers) is recommending the most benign environment possible for the installation of their products. Unfortunately, the most benign benign location in the aircraft is probably in the pilot's lap. Lacking hard design data to offer comfort in the most practical locations (firewall fwd or behind panel where all the convection heat gathers), the next best bet is not to ask for the pilot to hold it in his lap and WAG it. Now, there are probably places on the forward side of your firewall that are COOLER than places on the back side. This is because once airborne, there's a lot of air movement (which can make 100F air a better cooling medium than 60F still air). If it were my airplane, I'd ask B&C to give me a maximum allowable case temperature for full load operations. Then thermocouple the case on a firewall forward installation and see how it goes. Add an offset for maximum anticipated hot day operations. The vast majority of the time, I believe you'll find that you're okay on the firewall. Just for grins, if anyone has their SD-8 rectifier/regulator installed on the aft side of the firewall, it would be interesting to get a thermocouple measurement of free air vs. case temperature at THAT location too. If this sounds like a long answer that says, "I don't know" . . . you're correct. Without specific knowledge of design goals for the device combined with real data confirming as-installed temperature conditions, all else is hot-air and/or wishful-thinking. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:38 PM PST US From: Chris Stone Subject: AeroElectric-List: GNS 430 question Hello Garmin experts... In reviewing the Garmin 430 install manual the power wiring diagram shows two 5 amp CBs on the 2 of 3 grounds. This is in addition to CBs on all the positive power supply lines. What does this accomplish? I can find nothing in the text that provides an explanation. Chris Stone RV-8 Newberg, OR > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:38 PM PST US From: Chris Stone Subject: AeroElectric-List: E-bus relay Bob... I see on some Z schematics you are suggesting a relay to switch the E-bus alt. feed. My thought is that this adds another failure mode. I don't know what the drop out voltage is for the 701 relay but might it drop out before the battery goes completely dead when that last couple of minutes of battery life could be crucial? Why wouldn't using a both poles of a two pole e-bus alt. feed toggle switch be sufficient to carry 20 amps instead of the relay? thanks... Chris Stone RV-8 Newberg, OR > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:20 PM PST US From: "Robert McCallum" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GNS 430 question Chris; Not sure what you're looking at Chris. Rev M of the install manual Figure F-10 on page F-21 is the schematic for the typical installation of a GNS 430 and shows power through a 5A CB to pins 19, 20 on connector p4001 , power through a CB to pins 11, 12 of connector P4002(5A 28V or 10A 14V), and then pins 21, 22 of P4002, 77,78 of P4001, and 41 of P4006 all grounded. (no CB's) Where do you see CB's in the grounds? See page 108 of 132 at the following link. http://tinyurl.com/ccfsyq Bob McC -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chris Stone Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 10:36 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: GNS 430 question Hello Garmin experts... In reviewing the Garmin 430 install manual the power wiring diagram shows two 5 amp CBs on the 2 of 3 grounds. This is in addition to CBs on all the positive power supply lines. What does this accomplish? I can find nothing in the text that provides an explanation. Chris Stone RV-8 Newberg, OR > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.