---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/03/09: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:22 AM - Effects of Battery Disconnect with Good Alternator? () 2. 06:50 AM - Re: Effects of Battery Disconnect with Good Alternator? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 10:12 AM - Re: Icom headset adapter (Eric Schlanser) 4. 12:19 PM - wire splicing techniques (Brian Meyette) 5. 12:59 PM - Odyssey Battery Alternative () 6. 01:36 PM - Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative (Ralph E. Capen) 7. 01:36 PM - Wire splicing technique (Brian Meyette) 8. 02:18 PM - Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative () 9. 04:26 PM - Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative (Ed Anderson) 10. 04:49 PM - Re: Effects of Battery Disconnect with Good Alternator? (marcausman) 11. 05:06 PM - Assessing risk in my design (Bob Meyers) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:53 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Effects of Battery Disconnect with Good Alternator? 4/3/2009 Hello Scott, You wrote: "....a few of us were debating.... " This very subject was discussed between Bob Nuckolls and myself. See archived messages #37408 and #37413 below for the actual incident involved. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ================================================ Time: 11:05:14 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Effects of Battery Disconnect with Good Alternator? From: "tx_jayhawk" Bob, There was a question that a few of us were debating and would be interested in your input on. Assuming you have a single battery installation and a good (regulated) alternator doing its thing as expected (putting out 13.8ish volts), what would be the effect on the system if the battery was disconnected (like if primary battery cable came undone or was disconnected)? I know the battery acts like a capacitor to dampen the bus voltage (and fluctuations from the alternator), but would the alternator continue to output the right voltage in the quantity (current) as dictated by the active loads on the bus? In other words, could you fly indefinitely as long as the active load did not exceed the alternator capacity (and assuming the regulator was working appropriately)? Thanks, Scott ================================================ Message: #37408 From: Subject: Electrical Risk Date: Jul 07, 2007 7/7/2007 Hello Bob Nuckolls and Fellow Listers, I recently became aware of an aircraft electrical event that I'd like your opinions on: 1) Situation: Type certificated aircraft. Day VFR, shut down for refueling at a field a short flying distance from home field (fuel is cheaper). Maintenance with significant delay until following week (this was Friday afternoon) was possible. Retrieval of pilots by third party driving automobile very awkward. 2) Upon starting attempt starter gave a brief bump to prop and then all electrical feed from the battery to the aircraft ceased. 3) Borrowed voltmeter and some poking around revealed that the battery had 24.8 volts available. 4) The main battery contactor ("Battery Relay" P/N 6041H189) would click once each time when the master battery switch was turned on, but no voltage would appear on the output terminal of the contactor. 5) Conclusion was reached that the main battery contactor had failed internally. 6) Solution applied was to use a battery jumper cable to bypass the main battery contactor. 7) The aircraft was then started with the key switch in a normal fashion. 8) Once the alternator started functioning, after the engine started running, electricity was available in a normal fashion. 9) The aircraft was flown to home base with normal electrical functioning, but with no battery available to either buffer / cushion the alternator output or provide electricity in case of alternator failure or opening of the 50 amp alternator feed line circuit breaker. 10) Flight risk was considered acceptable because a no electrical supply VFR landing could be made at either of two non towered airports in the vicinity. Questions are: A) Was any part of the electrical system put at risk of damage by operating the aircraft in this manner for the short flight to home field? If so, why? B) Where is the best source to buy this rather obsolete "Battery Relay" P/N 6041H189; NSN 5945-00-588-8555, or a currently manufactured acceptable substitute part? Thanks. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." PS: Could you please respond direct as well as to the list -- I only get the list digest so have a 24 hour delay. PPS: This is the second main battery contactor failure that I am aware of within the last year. Other failure was with a garden variety contactor (P/N 111-226) when the very small coil wire fractured. I have rewired my amateur built experimental a bit with this failure in mind. ===================================================== Message: #37413 From: Subject: Re: Electrical Risk Date: Jul 07, 2007 7/7/2007 Hello Bob, Thanks for your detailed and prompt response to my request for help. I'll follow up with a few comments put in [brackets]. Skipping most of OC's original email -- it is available in the archives if needed. > Questions (from OC) are: > > A) Was any part of the electrical system put at risk of damage by > operating the aircraft in this manner for the short flight to home field? > If so, why? > > Slightly. The alternator was running without benefit of a battery on > line. If I were > going to ferry a similarly afflicted aircraft, I would make a solid > connection of battery > relay, fat wires to bypass the battery relay. Without the battery, > there is slight risk > that a large, transient event (lowering the gear) could trigger an > overshoot in the > alternator's output response or stall the alternator and cause it to > shut down. However, > modern panel mounted electronics (DO-160 qualified) are 99+ percent > okay with this . . . and > the landing gear can be extended by hand. The totally risk-free ferry > philosophy would be > to start the engine, leave the electrical system cold. Leave the gear > down and don't use > flaps. It'a all a trade-off of options that should be left up to the > knowledgeable pilot > tasked with planning and executing the mission. [Unfortunately, reentering the Washington DC ADIZ required electrical power for VHF comm and transponder.] > B) Where is the best source to buy this rather obsolete "Battery Relay" > P/N 6041H189; NSN 5945-00-588-8555, or a currently manufactured acceptable > substitute part? > > The 6041 series contactors are very much in production and still used > both for spares and for new design. Like all such devices, they continue > to fill a niche market where the designer realizes, "Sometimes the best > way to drive the nail is with a hammer." > Having said that, it's also true that the niche for these devices is > narrowed compared to breadth of the DC power controls market and > they're not as easily acquired. I did a google search on "6041H" > and "contactor" and got only 17 hits . . . a few of which were > suppliers. The catalog of variations on the theme for this part can > be downloaded from > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Eaton_CH/ [Yes, the current Eaton catalog has many 6041 series contactors, but none of them are the 6041H189. We attempted to obtain a 6041H189 for this very same Beech airplane a while back in order to replace the failed, but not available, Starter Relay, P/N SBC 9401-1. The word from the Beech community was that the 6041H189 would be an acceptable starter relay subtitute so we attempted to obtain one. We never did get one, but that fact became moot when the A&P doing the install insisted on documentation from Beechcraft saying that a 6041H189 would be acceptable. Beech said "no it would not" and a different starter relay (I don't have the P/N here) was obtained and installed.] [So now with the failure of the Battery Relay P/N 6041H189 we really need that exact part or one that Beech says is an acceptable substitute. I can find indications that there are some 6041H189 relays in existence on shelves, but just not readily available.] > But let's noodle through the simple-ideas behind the notion that > the el-cheeso relay is worthy of relegation to the scrap heap > in favor of its more expensive and much rarer cousin . . . > > The el-cheeso contactor (RPM Controls, White-Rogers, Stancore) > has been flying aboard light aircraft for about 70 years and in > proportionately huge volumes compared to the "mil quality" > device. If you ask any FBO mechanic how often they need to replace > one of these things, you'll get, "Oh yeah, I've replaced a boat-load > of those things!" But ask too how often he/she has replaced tires, > batteries, spark plugs, etc and you'll no doubt hear, "I've replaced > a boat load of those too." [In this instance of a type certificated airplane with the manufacturer's IPC (Illustrated Parts Catalog) calling for a specific relay P/N and an installing A&P mechanic insisting on documentation from the manufacturer to cover his ass before he will install a different part, the el-cheeso contactor is not an option.] > > The point being that ALL things have a service life limit. Further, > those limits are profoundly influenced by environment, operational > stresses and out-of-the-ordinary abuse by technique and perhaps > lack of preventative maintenance on the part of the owner/operator. > > Things like tires and plugs are replaced based on physical > observation and/or periodic maintenance intervals. But somehow, > things like batteries, contactors, switches and other components > vulnerable to service-stresses are not so blessed with the mechanic's > attention. > > This happens because there is (1) a lack of understanding as > to how life limit on these parts is influenced, (2) determination > of condition that goes beyond ordinary visual inspection (read labor > and thought-intensive) and (3) an insanely aggravated cost-of- > ownership generated from over-regulation by individuals demonstrably > short on understanding. > > Yet we are loath to treat these components like spark plugs and > put service life limits on them. At the same time we get > our shorts in a bunch worrying about some failure to perform > that generates a maintenance inconvenience (as cited above) > or becomes the opening bars of the prelude for one's personal > dark-n-stormy-night story. > > What's the first practical increment for elevating the comfort > levels of ownership of the aircraft cited above? The writer cites > multiple replacements of the battery contactor. Is this hard > evidence of and inability of the contactor to perform? Hmmmm . . . > there are hundreds of thousands of these same devices flying. > While replacement RATES (Failures per flight hour) are probably > higher than that of the high-dollar cousin, there's nothing > to that indicates these parts don't yield an acceptable > cost-of-ownership value. Two short-coupled failures of the > contactor? Hmmmm . . . is it possible that there's an underlying > operating stress that's shortening the life of the contactor? > Maybe . . . probably not. These parts have a calculable and probably > demonstrable mean time between failure. But when considering > some cited MTBF number reveals an average service life. > A small number of parts will go twice that value, a small number > of parts will crap 10 hours out of the box. [The three contactor failures that I am aware of during the last year are: 1) The Starter Relay, P/N SBC 9401-1 in the Beech aircraft; 2) A garden variety master battery contactor (P/N 111-138D or similar) failure in a fairly new RV-8; and 3) Now the master battery contactor failure P/N 6041H189, in the same Beech aircraft as failure 1.] [My reaction to failure number 2 was to rewire my own amateur built experimental aircraft so that I could supply electrical power to my transponder from my essential bus if my master battery contactor failed. A transponder is required for operating in the Washington DC ADIZ where my home field is located.] > To make an upgrade decision without benefit of a detailed > study of the physics and field experience is intellectually > comforting . . . but the high-dollar part WILL also fail > at some point in time. If all you seek is to push the > inevitable out in time, then an upgrade is a perfectly > rational thing to do. If you're REALLY more interested > in reduced cost of ownership and/or canceling the show > on your personal dark-n-stormy-night drama, then an alternate > approach is indicated. > > First, how about treating this contactor like a spark plug? > If you're willing to put $20 to $70 PER PLUG into an engine > every so often, is it also reasonable to plan for $25 for > a battery relay every so often as well? > > I had a conversation with a reader some years ago worried > about getting stuck on a remote lake with his float plane. > We decided it was a good thing to carry spare contactors > and tools necessary for replacement. > > If it were my airplane, in addition to periodic preventative > maintenance, the Avionics Master would become an e-bus > alternate feed switch and a normal feed diode would be > installed. Then I would be inoculated from both the > in-flight failure scenario as well as the conundrum of > "how to best ferry this airplane". [Probably not a feasible course of action for the type certificated Beech aircraft. It may be possible to push such a 337 change through our local FSDO, but I doubt the owner would pay the tab for it.] > Yup. There is no single "solution" that best fits the needs > for all owner/operators and a host of options. > PPS: This is the second main battery contactor failure that I am aware of > within the last year. Other failure was with a garden variety contactor > (P/N 111-226) when the very small coil wire fractured. I have rewired my > amateur built experimental a bit with this failure in mind. > > Depending on how many hoops you're willing/forced to jump, there > are other "upgrade" options. Consider: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Tyco_Kilovac/ev200.pdf > > There are a lot of opportunities (but widely spaced and > take $time$ to locate) for purchases. Some options to > explore are . . . > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Tyco_Kilovac/ev200.pdf > > http://tinyurl.com/2usy58 > > http://tinyurl.com/3847kw > > http://www.warbirdrelics.com/Electrical.htm > > http://www.silindustries.com/_RefFiles/Capabilities%20List(19apr07).swf > > http://www.electrospec.com/electronic/components-parts/index599.html > > http://www.marineairsupply.com/index.html > > http://www.clarkreiss.com/Inventory/relays/rl-speci > > Of course, the one place guaranteed willing and able to supply > such a part is the service-parts department of your local FBO. > This presupposes that $time$ is no object. I think the lowest > cost-of-ownership solution is to carry a spare contactor and > tools necessary for replacement optionally combined with a > shift of duties for the avionics master switch. > > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:16 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Effects of Battery Disconnect with Good Alternator? At 12:57 PM 4/2/2009, you wrote: > >Bob, > >There was a question that a few of us were debating and would be >interested in your input on. > >Assuming you have a single battery installation and a good >(regulated) alternator doing its thing as expected (putting out >13.8ish volts), Actually, nominal setpoint for for the alternator should be in the 14.2 to 14.6 range . . . >what would be the effect on the system if the battery was >disconnected (like if primary battery cable came undone or was >disconnected)? I know the battery acts like a capacitor to dampen >the bus voltage (and fluctuations from the alternator), but would >the alternator continue to output the right voltage in the quantity >(current) as dictated by the active loads on the bus? In other >words, could you fly indefinitely as long as the active load did not >exceed the alternator capacity (and assuming the regulator was >working appropriately)? The battery does offer a modicum of noise mitigation but it's not really great . . . and alternator noises on a battery-less system are not a whole lot greater when the battery is off line. In fact, the Bonanza and Barons of many years had separate and independent alternator and battery switches. Further, although not by original design, the alternators on these airplanes were capable of coming on line without a battery. There are procedures in the flight manual that speak to operations without a battery. It's not a real simple answer. It's easy to see how system dynamics can be materially altered if the battery were not present. The alternator's response to sudden application or off-loading of demand is not real fast. This means that high-inrush loads like pitot heaters, landing gear pumps, etc. MAY cause the bus to sag below the minimum operating points for some electro-whizzies. The duration is but tens of milliseconds and the potential for deleterious effects are similar to the starter brown-out phenomenon that has been discussed extensively on these pages. Assuming that your particular alternator is NOT capable of coming on line without a battery assist, then sudden application of load might cause it to "stall" . . . and stay off line. Assuming your alternator is being loaded to some high rate of delivery and the load is suddenly removed, the upward transient in bus voltage during the alternator/regulator's recovery time MAY be a bit much for other electro-whizzies . . . including the alternator's own regulator. The automotive world defines a "load dump" event as loss of battery connection while the battery is a significant total of the alternator's present load. Bottom line is that one should not plan on routine operations with battery off line. Now, assume you have any way to become AWARE that your battery contactor has opened due to some failure (exceedingly rare). The best modus operandi is to continue flight to comfortable arrival without making big changes to system loads. But without specific monitoring facilities to detect loss of battery, your first notice of malfunction just might be a stall of the alternator when you turn on landing lights or extend gear. This is not even a moderate probability event . . . or at least it's never been mentioned as something "we needed to go fix" in my career of working on airplanes. The turbine aircraft are another matter in that the majority use starter/generators. Generator only ops are not a big deal for a variety of little details concerning voltage regulation dynamics and the self-exciting nature of generators. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:45 AM PST US From: Eric Schlanser Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom headset adapter Jose, Thanks for the reply. The Icom A-5 and 6 are basically the same. The 3.5mm 4-conductor plug that connects at the radio has gone bad. The large plugs that you describe are OK. I have managed to locate the 3.5mm 4-conductor plug. It is Calrad part no. 30-701. My next problem will be wiring it up. There are 4 wires that go into it. What is the order for wiring this plug? Eric Subject: AeroElectric-List: wire splicing techniques I've been using a wire splicing technique that I think works very well. As part of doing a bunch more splicing recently, when I added my SDS ECU into my STi engine wiring harness, I took pics & just created a new page that shows the products and techniques used. Any feedback from it, please let me know. www.meyette.us/crimping.htm hope it's helpful, brian ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:22 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative From: Several of our hangar members have been experiencing trouble with reserve power using the popular Odyssey 680 battery. If running avionics and the like prior to starting (even briefly), the reserve power on these things really take a hit. I am not a huge fan of jump starting an aircraft or starting on reduced voltage when my craft is already electrically dependent and the taking off into a emergency situation with less than full reserve. Recently I found an option which has more cranking amps, (better A.H. value and about the same weight (or less). Albeit slightly more expensive, they may offer a good alternative for 680 users who find their batteries run down a bit too fast for their liking. http://www.braillebattery.com/index.php/ Glenn ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:36:42 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative Glenn, Which one on the site would be the replacement? Thanks, Ralph -----Original Message----- >From: longg@pjm.com >Sent: Apr 3, 2009 3:57 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative > >Several of our hangar members have been experiencing trouble with >reserve power using the popular Odyssey 680 battery. If running avionics >and the like prior to starting (even briefly), the reserve power on >these things really take a hit. > > > >I am not a huge fan of jump starting an aircraft or starting on reduced >voltage when my craft is already electrically dependent and the taking >off into a emergency situation with less than full reserve. > > > >Recently I found an option which has more cranking amps, (better A.H. >value and about the same weight (or less). Albeit slightly more >expensive, they may offer a good alternative for 680 users who find >their batteries run down a bit too fast for their liking. > > > >http://www.braillebattery.com/index.php/ > > > >Glenn > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:36:43 PM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire splicing technique I've been using a wire splicing technique that I think works very well. As part of doing a bunch more splicing recently, when I added my SDS ECU into my STi engine wiring harness, I took pics & just created a new page that shows the products and techniques used. Any feedback from it, please let me know. www.meyette.us/crimping.htm hope it's helpful, brian ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:18:04 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative From: Ralph, B2015C provides the best bang for the buck. It is slightly wider than the 680 at 6.8" X 3.4 X 6.1 vs. 7 1/16 X 3 X 6 9/16 which may cause you to modify your mounting or buy theirs. What you get is 1067 vs. 680 cranking amps and 20 AH vs. 17 AH which is a big improvement. The weight is the same. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 4:36 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative Glenn, Which one on the site would be the replacement? Thanks, Ralph -----Original Message----- >From: longg@pjm.com >Sent: Apr 3, 2009 3:57 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative > >Several of our hangar members have been experiencing trouble with >reserve power using the popular Odyssey 680 battery. If running avionics >and the like prior to starting (even briefly), the reserve power on >these things really take a hit. > > > >I am not a huge fan of jump starting an aircraft or starting on reduced >voltage when my craft is already electrically dependent and the taking >off into a emergency situation with less than full reserve. > > > >Recently I found an option which has more cranking amps, (better A.H. >value and about the same weight (or less). Albeit slightly more >expensive, they may offer a good alternative for 680 users who find >their batteries run down a bit too fast for their liking. > > > >http://www.braillebattery.com/index.php/ > > > >Glenn > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:24 PM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative Good fine, Glenn. I notice that it would appear that unless you need the reported superior features of the carbon fiber case (heat/vibration) that the B2015 has the same electrical specifications at $159.99 vice $239.99 for the B2015C. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 5:14 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative Ralph, B2015C provides the best bang for the buck. It is slightly wider than the 680 at 6.8" X 3.4 X 6.1 vs. 7 1/16 X 3 X 6 9/16 which may cause you to modify your mounting or buy theirs. What you get is 1067 vs. 680 cranking amps and 20 AH vs. 17 AH which is a big improvement. The weight is the same. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 4:36 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative Glenn, Which one on the site would be the replacement? Thanks, Ralph -----Original Message----- >From: longg@pjm.com >Sent: Apr 3, 2009 3:57 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative > >Several of our hangar members have been experiencing trouble with >reserve power using the popular Odyssey 680 battery. If running avionics >and the like prior to starting (even briefly), the reserve power on >these things really take a hit. > > > >I am not a huge fan of jump starting an aircraft or starting on reduced >voltage when my craft is already electrically dependent and the taking >off into a emergency situation with less than full reserve. > > > >Recently I found an option which has more cranking amps, (better A.H. >value and about the same weight (or less). Albeit slightly more >expensive, they may offer a good alternative for 680 users who find >their batteries run down a bit too fast for their liking. > > > >http://www.braillebattery.com/index.php/ > > > >Glenn > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:40 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Effects of Battery Disconnect with Good Alternator? From: "marcausman" In testing we've done in the lab and in the aircraft on a "standard" and basic system, disconnecting the battery causes voltage fluctuations which very quickly trip the OV circuit (>16v). YMMV. -------- Marc Ausman http://www.verticalpower.com RV-7 IO-390 Flying Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237590#237590 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:51 PM PST US From: Bob Meyers Subject: AeroElectric-List: Assessing risk in my design I have a problem in assessing one element of risk in my electrical design. I have a permanent magnet alternator and my design borrows from Z-17 and some literature from B&C that came with the components I ordered from them. One of those components is a large Electrolytic capacitor - 47k f 16v - that, along with a relay, mounts on the cabin side of the firewall. My aircraft is a Sonex which has the fuel tank between the firewall and the instrument panel. This would be similar to any other aircraft with a header tank in the cabin. Trying it assess the risks in my design, in this case the location of the components, I realize that I have no knowledge of capacitor failure modes. Would a large capacitor like this have an explosive or flaming failure mode - assume the polarity is correct? The alternator circuit does have crowbar over voltage protection but the capacitor is wired in parallel before the relay. There is an inline fuse between the alternator and the capacitor but is the capacitor at risk here? And what is that risk? Help in understanding the risks is appreciated. 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