Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:36 AM - 400W/420W/430W Power cable ()
2. 05:10 AM - Re: 400W/420W/430W Power cable (BobsV35B@aol.com)
3. 05:38 AM - Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative (Ralph E. Capen)
4. 06:12 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Battery Disconnect with Good Alternator? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:08 AM - Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Battery Disconnect with Good Alternator? (John Morgensen)
7. 09:04 AM - Re: 400W/420W/430W Power cable (bcondrey)
8. 09:09 AM - Re: 400W/420W/430W Power cable (bcondrey)
9. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: 400W/420W/430W Power cable (BobsV35B@aol.com)
10. 09:43 AM - Re: 400W/420W/430W Power cable (bcondrey)
11. 09:51 AM - Re: 400W/420W/430W Power cable (bcondrey)
12. 01:34 PM - Re: Odyssey Battery AlternativeOdyssey Battery Alternative (D Fritz)
13. 04:17 PM - Re: Re: 400W/420W/430W Power cable (BobsV35B@aol.com)
14. 07:28 PM - Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 09:36 PM - Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative (Bill Bradburry)
16. 10:15 PM - Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative (Dale Rogers)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 400W/420W/430W Power cable |
4/4/2009
Hello Robin, Please tell me more about this demo mode. How does one get into
it and use it? I can't find out anything about it in my 430W manual.
If you have the Garmin trainer on your computer how does the demo mode
compare to the trainer?
Thanks.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
============================================
Time: 02:57:59 PM PST US
From: Robin Hou <rmhou@yahoo.com>
Subject: Avionics-List: 400W/420W/430W Power cable
Hi Listers,
-
I am happy to report back that my $10 D-Sub 78-pin male connector from Mous
er works fine for my at-home-power-cable.- I connected pin 19 & 20 to +12
v, and-75, 77 & 78 to negative.- The 420W powered up in demo mode just
fine.
-
Thanks to-all who replied.
-
Robin
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 400W/420W/430W Power cable |
Good Morning OC and Robin,
I too would appreciate knowing how to use the 430W in demo mode!
Incidentally, I did not receive Robin's message concerning the pins to be
used. Fortunately, you (OC) copied the pertinent data in your message.
Thanks a bunch.
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 4/4/2009 6:37:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
bakerocb@cox.net writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
4/4/2009
Hello Robin, Please tell me more about this demo mode. How does one get into
it and use it? I can't find out anything about it in my 430W manual.
If you have the Garmin trainer on your computer how does the demo mode
compare to the trainer?
Thanks.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
============================================
Time: 02:57:59 PM PST US
From: Robin Hou <rmhou@yahoo.com>
Subject: Avionics-List: 400W/420W/430W Power cable
Hi Listers,
-
I am happy to report back that my $10 D-Sub 78-pin male connector from
Mouser works fine for my at-home-power-cable.- I connected pin 19 & 20 to +12v,
and-75, 77 & 78 to negative.- The 420W powered up in demo mode just fine.
-
Thanks to-all who replied.
-
Robin
**************Hurry! April 15th is almost here. File your Federal taxes FREE
with TaxACT.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative |
Thanks,
Definitely something to think about when it becomes replacement time. My
680 is brand new - I replaced a four year old one that I had beaten up
pretty hard during the construction process. The new one seems to do fine
at the present - but I keep a Battery Hawk on it between flights so it's
always topped off.
Ralph
RV6A N822AR @ N06 8.3 hours - waiting for the wind gusts to die down so I
can fly off some more hours.....!
----- Original Message -----
From: <longg@pjm.com>
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative
>
> Ralph,
>
> B2015C provides the best bang for the buck. It is slightly wider than the
> 680 at 6.8" X 3.4 X 6.1 vs. 7 1/16 X 3 X 6 9/16 which may cause you to
> modify your mounting or buy theirs.
>
> What you get is 1067 vs. 680 cranking amps and 20 AH vs. 17 AH which is a
> big improvement. The weight is the same.
>
> Glenn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph
> E. Capen
> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 4:36 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative
>
> <recapen@earthlink.net>
>
> Glenn,
>
> Which one on the site would be the replacement?
>
> Thanks,
> Ralph
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: longg@pjm.com
>>Sent: Apr 3, 2009 3:57 PM
>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative
>>
>>Several of our hangar members have been experiencing trouble with
>>reserve power using the popular Odyssey 680 battery. If running avionics
>>and the like prior to starting (even briefly), the reserve power on
>>these things really take a hit.
>>
>>
>>
>>I am not a huge fan of jump starting an aircraft or starting on reduced
>>voltage when my craft is already electrically dependent and the taking
>>off into a emergency situation with less than full reserve.
>>
>>
>>
>>Recently I found an option which has more cranking amps, (better A.H.
>>value and about the same weight (or less). Albeit slightly more
>>expensive, they may offer a good alternative for 680 users who find
>>their batteries run down a bit too fast for their liking.
>>
>>
>>
>>http://www.braillebattery.com/index.php/
>>
>>
>>
>>Glenn
>>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Effects of Battery Disconnect with Good Alternator? |
At 06:47 PM 4/3/2009, you wrote:
>
>In testing we've done in the lab and in the aircraft on a "standard"
>and basic system, disconnecting the battery causes voltage
>fluctuations which very quickly trip the OV circuit (>16v). YMMV.
Yeah, thanks for reminding me.
When the individual responsible for setting voltage
regulator dynamics is fine tuning their creation
on the bench, they'll have to trade off regulation
response time with regulation stability. There
are some regulators in the wild wherein the author
went for fast response and lost some stability
that was mitigated by the presence of a battery.
I had to make the same choices on the B&C LR and
LS series regulators 20 years ago. As I recall,
I was more interested in stability . . . we
tuned the response dynamics for a slightly
under-damped response to moderate load dump
with battery connected. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/damping_ratio.gif
The top response curve represents an "under-damped"
response which can be fast/accurate but prone
to "jitter". The bottom curve is "over-damped"
which offers great stability in constant load
situations but poor response to changing loads.
The middle curve illustrates the idealized response
that overshoots slightly in response to a load
change but damps quickly after the single
overshoot. I don't recall exploring system performance
sans battery.
But Marc's observations are right on point. Virtually
nobody designs for alternator-only operations. This
is considered a failure mode that begs for correction.
Only the aircraft guys are inclined to do failure mode
effects analysis and consider loss of battery in crafting
Plan-A, Plan-B, Plan-C, etc.
I will suggest that a second E-bus feed directly from the
battery for combined with well considered preventative
maintenance is the best hedge against loss of battery
contactor. This takes the sans battery performance of
the alternator/regulator out of the equation.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative |
At 07:28 AM 4/4/2009, you wrote:
><recapen@earthlink.net>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Definitely something to think about when it becomes replacement
>time. My 680 is brand new - I replaced a four year old one that I
>had beaten up pretty hard during the construction process. The new
>one seems to do fine at the present - but I keep a Battery Hawk on
>it between flights so it's always topped off.
Why did you replace it? Was it sent to recycle because
it's capacity had fallen below your e-bus run-time benchmark
or because it didn't crank the engine any more?
This thread started with the following statements:
"Several of our hangar members have been experiencing trouble with
reserve power using the popular Odyssey 680 battery. If running
avionics and the like prior to starting (even briefly), the reserve
power on these things really take a hit."
"I am not a huge fan of jump starting an aircraft or starting on
reduced voltage when my craft is already electrically dependent and
the taking off into a emergency situation with less than full reserve."
"Recently I found an option which has more cranking amps, (better
A.H. value and about the same weight (or less). Albeit slightly more
expensive, they may offer a good alternative for 680 users who find
their batteries run down a bit too fast for their liking."
"Reserve power" speaks to watt-seconds of energy
contained when fully charged. This is closely
related to the battery's rated capacity in Ampere-
Hours although apparent capacity can vary widely
depending on loads due to the battery's internal
losses (conduction = 1/resistance). Double the
load on a battery and internal losses go up by
a factor of 4.
The terms "briefly" and "really takes a hit"
are not quantified. Nor were the pre-cranking loads
for operation of "running avionics and the like".
So we're not privy to the numbers that define
expected/desired battery performance. We also
don't know the numbers that drove perceptions
of "experiencing trouble".
My words are not intended to cause anyone discomfort
but it is helpful to understand the numbers behind
a proposed exchange of product. Then each of you
needs to decide how the exchange will improve on
your personal expectations for system performance
and the amount of $time$ you're willing to expend
as a cost of ownership.
The Braille batteries appear to have been fine
tuned for lower internal resistance. This is
suggested by the greater "cranking" or "pulse"
current ratings. But in terms of capacity, watt-seconds
of energy stored is pretty much set by how many
pounds of reactants (lead) is in the battery.
Indeed, their a.h. ratings/pound of product weight
are right in line with everybody else's products.
They speak to the "conductance" test and something
new . . . which it is not. The test is easily
performed with modern "battery analyzers". An
example of this instrument can be seen at:
http://www.midtronics.com/default.asp
where we find no less than 15 different models
of device selling for hundreds of dollars. What
your buying with these capable instruments is
convenience of light weight, compact size,
digital readout, and perhaps some predictions
of service-life. However, the data gathered
is the same as that which you would get from
this piece of arcane technology from Harbor
Freight for about $60.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Testers/HF91129_4.jpg
The later device requires some understanding
and skill but ultimately is a BETTER measure
of cranking performance because the test loads
are REAL and not extrapolated from short, pulsed
values in the digital instrument.
What does internal resistance (reciprocal of
conductance) have to do with capacity? Nothing.
Capacity is related to pounds of chemistry
available to store energy. The efficiency with
which that energy can be extracted for useful
purposes IS affected by internal resistance.
This is discussed in some detail in the battery
chapter update published at:
http://aeroelectric.com/R12A/02_Battery_12A2.pdf
Without knowing the nature and magnitude of
"experiencing trouble" which drives the decision
to seek a more robust battery, we're not able
to advance this deliberation based on physics
and comparative measurements. I can only hypothesize
as follows:
The perceptions of poor battery performance are
probably based on a pre-cranking battery load
that is unnecessarily large. Without an e-bus
and the ability to get your ATIS data and
a departure clearance, then flipping on the
battery master burdens the battery with loads
that far exceed present requirements.
Keep in mind too that the energy required to
get a well tuned engine started is but a few
percent of a battery's capacity. This battery
voltage/current curve . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/turbine_start_a.jpg
was taken from a Beechjet engine start. It
begins with over 800A and tapers to 300A
over a period of 27 seconds. After all that
abuse, the battery is tapped for perhaps 6%
of contained energy. I agree that we're
comparing apples and oranges with respect to
types of engines and design goals for two
vastly different airplanes. But I'll suggest
that if somebody is having trouble getting
and engine started -OR- has seriously depleted
a battery during pre-flight operations because
of loads imposed before the alternator comes
on line . . . a serious reevaluation of design
goals and operating procedures is called for.
Back to the Braille battery product.
They probably do conform to marketing hype
concerning a lower internal resistance. This
is easily demonstrated with and instrument not
unlike the Harbor Freight device cited above.
Now the question: What does the more expensive
battery buy you in terms of cost of ownership?
Now that you've installed the Lexus of batteries,
how are you going to modify your rules of
ownership and operation for the purpose of meeting
design goals for your airplane? Are you going to
do periodic capacity checks to make well
considered decisions as to when the battery
needs replacing? Is it a reasonable expectation
that $time$ to maintain plust $time$ to buy the
higher price battery will be SMALLER than $time$
to buy an el-cheepo battery and replace it
every year?
Finally, rushing off to buy this premium
battery product may not get you the same
return on investment expected by those who are
"experiencing trouble" with their current
battery choices. Without an analysis of how
their disappointment arises, there's no
guarantee that YOUR purchase of the more
robust battery will produce a good return
on your investment.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Effects of Battery Disconnect with Good |
Alternator?
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> I will suggest that a second E-bus feed directly from the
> battery for combined with well considered preventative
> maintenance is the best hedge against loss of battery
> contactor. This takes the sans battery performance of
> the alternator/regulator out of the equation.
>
Given a Z-13/8 architecture, what is the point in making the SD-8 self
exciting? The battery is always present even if the battery contactor fails.
John Morgensen
RV9A Wiring Z-13/8
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 400W/420W/430W Power cable |
Demo mode on the 430W is achieved by grounding pin 75 on connector P4001. From
the install manual page 4-10:
4.5.1.12 Demo Mode Select
This discrete input may be used to select Demo Mode on the 400W series unit. A
low on this pin at time of unit power-up invokes the demo mode. Demo mode allows
the 400W series unit to simulate reception of GPS satellite signals.
Caution: Do not connect DEMO MODE SELECT in an aircraft installation
Bob
RV-10 N442PM
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237664#237664
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 400W/420W/430W Power cable |
The built in demo mode simply simulates receiving GPS signals. You can load a
flight plan, select approaches, etc. Primary benefit of using the actual unit
is that you get used to the "buttonology" of the box. The computer version that
can downloaded from Garmin has the additional feature of a throttle control
but you're using the computer mouse/keyboard to drive things. Both have their
pros and cons.
Bob
RV-10 N442PM
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237667#237667
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 400W/420W/430W Power cable |
Good Morning Bob,
I did see that in the Installation manual, but I have not found any guidance
in the Pilot's Guide or the installation manual as to how to use the Demo
Mode.
Is there a method to input speeds and such as we can do in the GNC 300XL?
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 4/4/2009 11:05:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
bob.condrey@baesystems.com writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bcondrey"
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Demo mode on the 430W is achieved by grounding pin 75 on connector P4001.
>From the install manual page 4-10:
4.5.1.12 Demo Mode Select
This discrete input may be used to select Demo Mode on the 400W series unit.
A low on this pin at time of unit power-up invokes the demo mode. Demo
mode allows the 400W series unit to simulate reception of GPS satellite signals.
Caution: Do not connect DEMO MODE SELECT in an aircraft installation
Bob
RV-10 N442PM
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237664#237664
**************Hurry! April 15th is almost here. File your Federal taxes FREE
with TaxACT.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 400W/420W/430W Power cable |
I recall seeing a speed input in the setup menu someplace, but that's quite a bit
different from having a throttle control like you've got with the PC simulator.
Bob
RV-10 N442PM
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237680#237680
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| Subject: | Re: 400W/420W/430W Power cable |
When you've got demo mode selected the 430W comes up and shows that it's receiving
data from all satellites (kind of a spiral pattern on the satellite view screen).
At that point you treat it just like it was in your plane - enter a flight
plan, select an approach, etc. There's a way to select present position
but I don't remember how off the top of my head. Once the flight plan is entered
the unit makes turns as necessary to track it and you can watch the screen
update, make changes, select approaches, etc. just like you are in the plane.
BTW, if you've seen the Commander units for panel mount GPSs, all they are is a
power supply and cable that plugs into the back of the GPS. On the 430/530 series
they ground the demo mode pin in addition to supplying power.
Bob
RV-10 N442PM
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237683#237683
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| Subject: | Re: Odyssey Battery AlternativeOdyssey Battery Alternative |
Has anyone used one of these batteries and have any info/user reports that
may be useful in determining whether it's suitable in an aircraft?- Their
site lists this as a "sealed valve regulated design," is this comparable t
o the AGM batteries Odyssey sells?
Thanks,
Dan
=0A=0A=0A
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 400W/420W/430W Power cable |
Thanks Bob,
I guess the best bet is to plug it in and give bit a try?
If anyone knows of any documentation as to how to load an airspeed and
location like we do for the GNC 300XL. I would sure appreciate getting that
information.
I like to go over a strange approach before I actually fly it. When the
simulator was being updated regularly, that worked pretty well. Now that Garmin
has ceased updating their downloadable simulator, most of the approaches I want
to use are out of date in the simulator. If I use my aircraft set in Demo
mode, I can use my current database.
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 4/4/2009 11:52:27 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
bob.condrey@baesystems.com writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bcondrey"
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
When you've got demo mode selected the 430W comes up and shows that it's
receiving data from all satellites (kind of a spiral pattern on the satellite
view screen). At that point you treat it just like it was in your plane -
enter a flight plan, select an approach, etc. There's a way to select present
position but I don't remember how off the top of my head. Once the flight plan
is entered the unit makes turns as necessary to track it and you can watch
the screen update, make changes, select approaches, etc. just like you are in
the plane.
BTW, if you've seen the Commander units for panel mount GPSs, all they are
is a power supply and cable that plugs into the back of the GPS. On the
430/530 series they ground the demo mode pin in addition to supplying power.
Bob
RV-10 N442PM
**************Hurry! April 15th is almost here. File your Federal taxes FREE
with TaxACT.
Message 14
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| Subject: | re: Odyssey Battery Alternative |
At 03:25 PM 4/4/2009, you wrote:
>Has anyone used one of these batteries and have any info/user
>reports that may be useful in determining whether it's suitable in
>an aircraft? Their site lists this as a "sealed valve regulated
>design," is this comparable to the AGM batteries Odyssey sells?
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA
RG (recombinant gas), AGM (absorbed glass mat), VRSLA (valve
regulated sealed lead acid), and "starved electrolyte, glass
mat", and perhaps a dozen other variations on the theme are
all siblings. Specific products may claim a superior performance
in some regard like longer shelf life, higher cranking power,
greater ruggedness, virgin lead, etc. etc. Any of these features
may well have proven to add value in the laboratory comparison
with other technologies . . . but in real service aboard airplanes,
the day-to-day "abuses" that depart from the laboratory demonstrations
tend to be the true limiting factor in service life.
Take laboratory grade care of your battery and it will
probably deliver a good service life. Just keep in mind
that all other things being equal, price does not deliver
proportionate increases in ANY performance parameter.
Virtually every battery that does not audibly "slosh"
when you shake it is some form of "sealed" device
and therefore "comparable" to all other products of
the same class . . . lead-acid batteries not open to
atmosphere.
Finally, if the old "slosher" Rebat, Concorde and Gill
batteries of yesteryear were ever considered suitable
for use aboard airplanes, then ANY sealed device you can put
your hands today is MORE suited.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 15
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| Subject: | Odyssey Battery Alternative |
Talk about your bang for the buck!
I am using the BB Battery. The price is in the $30 range. The BP17-12 is
the same size as the 680 and weighs 13.5 lbs. The BP20-12 is also the same
size and weighs 14.0 lbs.
See the specs here:
http://www.bb-battery.com/productsbp.asp
Since I plan to change out one of my batteries each year, it doesn't make
sense to me to pay over $100 when I can pay under $50.
Bill B
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
longg@pjm.com
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative
Ralph,
B2015C provides the best bang for the buck. It is slightly wider than the
680 at 6.8" X 3.4 X 6.1 vs. 7 1/16 X 3 X 6 9/16 which may cause you to
modify your mounting or buy theirs.
What you get is 1067 vs. 680 cranking amps and 20 AH vs. 17 AH which is a
big improvement. The weight is the same.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E.
Capen
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative
--> <recapen@earthlink.net>
Glenn,
Which one on the site would be the replacement?
Thanks,
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: longg@pjm.com
>Sent: Apr 3, 2009 3:57 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative
>
>Several of our hangar members have been experiencing trouble with
>reserve power using the popular Odyssey 680 battery. If running
>avionics and the like prior to starting (even briefly), the reserve
>power on these things really take a hit.
>
>
>
>I am not a huge fan of jump starting an aircraft or starting on reduced
>voltage when my craft is already electrically dependent and the taking
>off into a emergency situation with less than full reserve.
>
>
>
>Recently I found an option which has more cranking amps, (better A.H.
>value and about the same weight (or less). Albeit slightly more
>expensive, they may offer a good alternative for 680 users who find
>their batteries run down a bit too fast for their liking.
>
>
>
>http://www.braillebattery.com/index.php/
>
>
>
>Glenn
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative |
Bill Bradburry wrote:
>
> Talk about your bang for the buck!
> I am using the BB Battery. The price is in the $30 range. The BP17-12 is
> the same size as the 680 and weighs 13.5 lbs. The BP20-12 is also the same
> size and weighs 14.0 lbs.
>
> See the specs here:
>
> http://www.bb-battery.com/productsbp.asp
>
> Since I plan to change out one of my batteries each year, it doesn't make
> sense to me to pay over $100 when I can pay under $50.
>
Made in mainland (PDRC) China?
Dale R.
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