---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/14/09: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:04 AM - DO-160 and EFIS brownout (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com) 2. 10:35 AM - Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US) 3. 11:22 AM - Re: Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool (Dale Rogers) 4. 12:50 PM - Re: Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool (Corey Crawford) 5. 03:05 PM - Re: Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool (Vince Himsl) 6. 03:22 PM - Where have all the OV modules gone ? (Gilles Thesee) 7. 03:52 PM - Re: Where have all the OV modules gone ? (Steve Thomas) 8. 03:53 PM - Re: Where have all the OV modules gone ? (Steve Thomas) 9. 06:11 PM - Re: Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool (rampil) 10. 06:17 PM - Re: E-Bus Alt Feed wire size (Bud Smith) 11. 06:52 PM - Re: DO-160 and EFIS brownout (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 07:23 PM - Re: Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 07:26 PM - Re: Where have all the OV modules gone ? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 07:28 PM - Re: E-Bus Alt Feed wire size (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 07:58 PM - Re: Where have all the OV modules gone ? (Bob Meyers) 16. 08:36 PM - Re: Where have all the OV modules gone ? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 08:39 PM - Re: Re: Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:50 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: DO-160 and EFIS brownout From: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com I noticed that the latest publication of the EAA rag includes a nice ad from the good folks at Grand Rapids Technologies for their EFIS. The a d claimed that they "exceed" DO-160 standards. Im not intimate with the details of DO-160 but recall Bob recently chiding EFIS makers for thei r failure to provide brownout protection in their otherwise wonderful products. Does brownout protection fall under DO-160 guidelines? If s o, perhaps now is a good time for us to gently prod them toward compliance in view of their claims. erich ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:02 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool From: rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US Anyone know where I can get a high quality Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock pin extraction tool as sold by Steinair? I have the blue and white tool as sold by Stein andSpruce but it is not the right tool. Need to do battle with keep on rebending it and once in a while lose a pin. I have universal tool from Spruce but largest insert it is not big enough. Radio Shack cheap extraction tool works great for their connectors but it is too small for Steins. I saw on EAA instructional video a tool that looked like a blue anodized aluminium handle with a stout insert. Thx. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:22:07 AM PST US From: Dale Rogers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool Jensen Tool? http://www.stanleysupplyservices.com/product-group.aspx?id=11845 Dale R. COZY MkIV #0497 Ch. 13 rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote: > Anyone know where I can get a high quality *Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock > pin extraction tool *as sold by Steinair? > > I have the blue and white tool as sold by Stein and Spruce but it is > not the right tool. Need to do battle with keep on rebending it and > once in a while lose a pin. > > I have universal tool from Spruce but largest insert it is not big enough. > > Radio Shack cheap extraction tool works great for their connectors but > it is too small for Steins. > > I saw on EAA instructional video a tool that looked like a blue > anodized aluminium handle with a stout insert. > > Thx. > Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:50:22 PM PST US From: Corey Crawford Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool I got mine from Aircraft Spruce: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/edmo305183.php $25 but it works a lot better than those plastic ones (if you are using mate-n-lok pins). -- Corey Crawford On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Dale Rogers wrote: > > Jensen Tool? > > http://www.stanleysupplyservices.com/product-group.aspx?id=11845 > > Dale R. > COZY MkIV #0497 > Ch. 13 > > > rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote: > >> Anyone know where I can get a high quality *Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock pin >> extraction tool *as sold by Steinair? >> >> I have the blue and white tool as sold by Stein and Spruce but it is not >> the right tool. Need to do battle with keep on rebending it and once in a >> while lose a pin. >> >> I have universal tool from Spruce but largest insert it is not big enough. >> >> Radio Shack cheap extraction tool works great for their connectors but it >> is too small for Steins. >> >> I saw on EAA instructional video a tool that looked like a blue anodized >> aluminium handle with a stout insert. >> >> Thx. >> Ron Parigoris >> > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:11 PM PST US From: "Vince Himsl" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool High quality? Well, no.but I know of a cheap and elegant (in a cheap sort of way) alternative. ;>) Purchase a set of inexpensive jeweler screwdrivers. Try the Dollar store, Walmart, etc. The screwdriver part is usually glued in to the silver colored handle. Yank out the screwdriver tip then bore the end to the appropriate diameter. Next grind the outside diameter to allow the 'tool' to fit through the connector. I did this in about five minutes on a scotch-brite wheel. You will have to examine what you buy as to whether you can successfully modify it to work. In other words, is the handle tip where the screwdriver tip goes long enough to bottom out on your connector such that you can bore and grind it to do the job? And the total price for the two tools I needed for the two sizes of Amp Mate-N-Lock connector pins I needed? @$5.00 total as opposed to the $50.00 plus you will need to order/wait for the two (20-24awg, 14-18awg) professional tools. I came up with this 'solution' late at night on a weekend so I could continue wiring my RV8. In addition to making my panel 'plug-n-play' (read accessible), I was able to do some complex wiring at the connector rather than at the switch. Close examination of the pro tools leads me to believe these are just brass tubing (no slits) with a handle. You could check a local hobby store to see if per chance they have the inside and outside diameter tubing you need in their metal hobby rack. If so that would be an even better solution. Oh, I recommend the AMP brand Mate-N-Lock as opposed to the non locking Molex stuff you get at Radio Shack. I don't have exact dimensions as I am away from the hanger. Regards and Good luck, Vince H. RV8 - N8432 Taxi Tests and inspection prep From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US Sent: April 14, 2009 10:32 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool Anyone know where I can get a high quality Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock pin extraction tool as sold by Steinair? I have the blue . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:22:37 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: AeroElectric-List: Where have all the OV modules gone ? Hi Bob, After spending much time convincing one of my buddies to install an OV module and crowbar protection, I am now unable to locate an OVmodule on your website or at B&C. Have they disappeared or did I miss the obvious ? Thanks, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:52:09 PM PST US From: Steve Thomas Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Where have all the OV modules gone ? Looks like they revised their web site since my last visit. Much nicer. Look under "Regulators" in their "Featured Categories" section. The crowbar modules are built-in to their alternator controller/ regulators. Steve Thomas ________________________________________________________________________ On Apr 14, 2009, at 3:21 PM, Gilles Thesee wrote: > > > > Hi Bob, > > After spending much time convincing one of my buddies to install an > OV module and crowbar protection, I am now unable to locate an > OVmodule on your website or at B&C. > Have they disappeared or did I miss the obvious ? > > Thanks, > > Best regards, > -- > Gilles > http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:53:28 PM PST US From: Steve Thomas Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Where have all the OV modules gone ? Also, if you don't need the regulator, you can get a linear over- voltage protector (non-crowbar) here: http://www.periheliondesign.com/lovm.htm Steve Thomas ________________________________________________________________________ On Apr 14, 2009, at 3:21 PM, Gilles Thesee wrote: > > > > Hi Bob, > > After spending much time convincing one of my buddies to install an > OV module and crowbar protection, I am now unable to locate an > OVmodule on your website or at B&C. > Have they disappeared or did I miss the obvious ? > > Thanks, > > Best regards, > -- > Gilles > http://contrails.free.fr > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:00 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool From: "rampil" Ron, I know you want to use the right tool. Each tool is specific to a pin/socket combo and as you know each manufacturer's pins are different sizes. Go straight to the molex web site and get the p/n then go to digikey or newark, etc. FWIW, I removed all the molex connectors from my airframe because they are the least reliable I know, highly prone to the connectors backing out of the bodies secondary to vibration. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239228#239228 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:11 PM PST US From: Bud Smith Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Alt Feed wire size Thanks Bob and for all your contributions to our experimental industry. There is nothing wrong with the e-buss relay, except it's more connections and another device. I think my confusion was caused by the standard z-15 schematic and how a 7amp e-buss alt feed fuse can power the e-buss when the e-buss (as shown) could be much more than 7 amps. -- Bud Smith dbuds2@comcast.net ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:30 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DO-160 and EFIS brownout At 10:59 AM 4/14/2009, you wrote: >I noticed that the latest publication of the EAA rag includes a nice >ad from the good folks at Grand Rapids Technologies for their EFIS. >The ad claimed that they "exceed" DO-160 standards. Im not intimate >with the details of DO-160 but recall Bob recently chiding EFIS >makers for their failure to provide brownout protection in their >otherwise wonderful products. Does brownout protection fall under >DO-160 guidelines? If so, perhaps now is a good time for us to >gently prod them toward compliance in view of their claims. Yeeaaahhh . . . sort of. When somebody says, "We meet or exceed DO-160 standards, it can mean a lot . . . or very little. DO-160 is not a standard. It's not a requirement. It's a catalog of suggested investigative/proof tests for demonstrating that a particular piece of equipment is suited to the intended task. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/DO-160.pdf Obviously, we're more concerned about performance for a heads-up display than we are about the battery bus voltmeter. Environmental conditions in the forward wheel well are light years away from those of the galley warming oven. So one of the first issues for purchasing any new piece of equipment involves an agreement between the buyers and suppliers as to what tests will be run and under what levels of stress and what constitutes a pass-fail condition. The final agreement takes the form of a Qualification Test Plan (QTP) that speaks to all those features and is blessed by all interested parties before the program moves forward. When the "pass" condition has been demonstrated for all tests, then a certain document is filled out that may look a lot like this: http://tinyurl.com/cvqth2 As you can see, this form has a place to speak to the entire constellation of DO-160 tests. I'll call your attention to notations for Section 9.0, 10.0 and others where we're told that this feature is "Category X, no test performed." Further, there should be a mini-synopsis of the qualification test form as part of the device's product identification label where you will see a string of characters like this: Emacs! If you know how to decode this string, you can learn a lot about how the device was tested. Note the multiple appearances of "X" in the string. Those are tests that were not performed. The other letters speak to tests that WERE performed and to what levels. Sections 16.0 through 20.0 speak to a host of input torments including power interruptions and brownouts of various magnitudes and duration. The goal of performing these tests is to show two things: (1) the input power anomaly doesn't damage the device and (2) if the device wanders into the weeds as a result of the stress, it should demonstrate some "acceptable" mode of recovery. Here's the ace-kicker. For some products, it may be acceptable for the operator to carry out some action to drag the device out of the weeds. In more critical cases (like autopilots or flight displays) we might agree that the screen can glitch or the ailerons twitch but recovery after the event is autonomous, timely and pucker-free. With respect to your question about brown-out, yes . . . there some tests that touch on that. But without reading the test plan for a device and knowing what the interested parties called "acceptable recovery characteristics", the statement that a product "meets or exceeds DO-160" has a risk of being vague and/or not very satisfying. In the case of a processor-based system parameters display, the critter may go nuts during the event but stand up in a few hundred milliseconds. I think I could live with that. For the early versions of Blue Mountain flight instruments systems, the processor had to reboot from a hard-drive. This could take some time and if it happens in flight, raises questions as to accuracy of the displays after they quit thrashing around. As you can see from this mini-dissertation on equipment qualification, designing to live in the sandbox with really big cats is not a trivial task. Further, DO-160 speaks only to the effects of environment. You still have to thrash out an agreement on ability to perform the intended task. My occasional accusation that certain products were "not designed to live in the real world of airplanes" is not intended to be flippant or demeaning. It was a simple observation of fact that should give the OBAM aircraft builder pause to insure that system integration into their project is accomplished with understanding. Back to your original suggestion: It NEVER hurts to inquire as to exactly what DO-160 tests were run and even ask to see a copy of the cert sheet. If they've done a good job, they'll be proud to show it to you. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:17 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool At 12:32 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote: >Anyone know where I can get a high quality Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock >pin extraction tool as sold by Steinair? > >I have the blue and white tool as sold by Stein and Spruce but it is >not the right tool. Need to do battle with keep on rebending it and >once in a while lose a pin. > >I have universal tool from Spruce but largest insert it is not big enough. > >Radio Shack cheap extraction tool works great for their connectors >but it is too small for Steins. > >I saw on EAA instructional video a tool that looked like a blue >anodized aluminium handle with a stout insert. Depends on the specific connector. There are a number of "similar" products which can be inserted/extracted with a tool for another series . . . but as you can see here: http://tinyurl.com/clkq9t http://tinyurl.com/dc6j2y there's a whole fist-full of tools for the Mate-n-Lok series connectors. Further, be sure you're not really looking for a Waldom/Molex tool. Lots of folks mistake the W/M parts for Tyco-Amp. Your description of a "blue anodized tool" reminds me of this critter: Emacs! This is the Molex 11-03-0006 for the larger, .093 power pins which are 'close' to Tyco-Amp Mate-n-Lok but no cigar. The smaller .062 power pin tool is red. But Digikey will have the tool you need once you figure out which connectors you're working with. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:18 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Where have all the OV modules gone ? At 05:21 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote: > > >Hi Bob, > >After spending much time convincing one of my buddies to install an >OV module and crowbar protection, I am now unable to locate an >OVmodule on your website or at B&C. >Have they disappeared or did I miss the obvious ? Hmmm . . . that was the OVM-14 which is part of their 505-1 kit but doesn't seem to be offered as a separate product. It appears they've overhauled the website. I'll cc Greg on this and see what's up. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:56 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Alt Feed wire size At 08:16 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob and for all your contributions to our experimental >industry. There is nothing wrong with the e-buss relay, except it's >more connections and another device. >I think my confusion was caused by the standard z-15 schematic and >how a 7amp e-buss alt feed fuse can power the e-buss when the e-buss >(as shown) could be much more than 7 amps. The z-figures are intended to show architectures that can be tailored as to what alternators, regulators, batteries, starters, fuses/breakers, are appropriate to the task. The wire and fuse sizes are examples for the purpose of illustration . . . any and all can be adjusted to meet your unique requirements. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:18 PM PST US From: Bob Meyers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Where have all the OV modules gone ? I just ordered an OVM-14 by itself and the kit which included another one. I had to call them to get the individual one. They wanted to know what I intended to do with it before they would sell it to me. The kit was for my PM alternator and the individual one was for a ground power installation per the Z-??? drawing. They were fine with that use. The sales rep said they had become concerned with some installations people were doing. I didn't ask for details about what they were concerned about, only gave him my use. Bob Meyers Building Sonex 982SX Web Site Index http://meyersfamily.org/Sonex982.html On Apr 14, 2009, at 9:25 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > At 05:21 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote: >> > >> >> Hi Bob, >> >> After spending much time convincing one of my buddies to install an >> OV module and crowbar protection, I am now unable to locate an >> OVmodule on your website or at B&C. >> Have they disappeared or did I miss the obvious ? > > Hmmm . . . that was the OVM-14 which is part of their > 505-1 kit but doesn't seem to be offered as a separate > product. It appears they've overhauled the website. > I'll cc Greg on this and see what's up. > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:19 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Where have all the OV modules gone ? > >The sales rep said they had become concerned with some installations >people were doing. I didn't ask for details about what they were >concerned about, only gave him my use. Hmmmm . . . interesting. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:35 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Molex - AMP "Mate-n-Lock" pin extraction tool > >FWIW, I removed all the molex connectors from my airframe >because they are the least reliable I know, highly prone to the >connectors backing out of the bodies secondary to vibration. I was working at Cessna when the Amp Mate-n-Loks came in the door. This would have been about 1968. After years of paying homage to "aircraft quality" connectors at Boeing and Cessna, I was skeptical of these cheesy looking connectors. In the intervening years, I've had numerous occasions to ask FBO mechanics what problems they've had to fight with those connectors. The complaints were surprisingly few. If these things don't get splashed with water or mechanically damaged, they've held up well. Of course, this presumes they've been installed to the manufacturer's specifications. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.