---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/20/09: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:43 AM - MX20 vertical stripes (Ralph E. Capen) 2. 06:40 AM - Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative () 3. 06:47 AM - Re: Low Voltage Warning () 4. 07:40 AM - Re: MX20 vertical stripes (Ralph E. Capen) 5. 07:56 AM - Re: MX20 vertical stripes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 07:59 AM - Re: Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 7. 08:10 AM - Re: MX20 vertical stripes (Ron Quillin) 8. 08:10 AM - Re: Low Voltage Warning (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 08:40 AM - Re: MX20 vertical stripes (Ralph E. Capen) 10. 08:42 AM - Re: Low Voltage Warning (Eric M. Jones) 11. 09:18 AM - Re: Low Voltage Warning (Peter Laurence) 12. 09:57 AM - Re: MX20 vertical stripes (Chuck Jensen) 13. 10:04 AM - Strippers are back . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 10:46 AM - Re: Strippers are back . . . (Ernest Christley) 15. 10:54 AM - Re: Strippers are back . . . (Matt Prather) 16. 01:56 PM - Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative (Michael Pereira) 17. 03:09 PM - Re: DOS was:Odyssey Battery Alternative (Steve Thomas) 18. 03:17 PM - Com Antenna Question (Jack Haviland) 19. 03:35 PM - Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative (Terry Watson) 20. 05:10 PM - OT: Operating Systems (was: Odyssey Battery Alternative) (Dale Rogers) 21. 05:38 PM - Re: OT: Operating Systems (was: Odyssey Battery Alternative) (Jason Beaver) 22. 05:38 PM - Re: OT: Operating Systems (was: Odyssey Battery Alternative) (Robert Borger) 23. 06:13 PM - Re: OT: Operating Systems (was: Odyssey Battery Alternative) (Dj Merrill) 24. 07:31 PM - Re: WIRE Strippers are back . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 25. 07:38 PM - Re: Com Antenna Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 26. 08:00 PM - Re: Choices . . . (Joemotis@aol.com) 27. 11:19 PM - Re: Re: Low Voltage Warning (Bob Verwey) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:37 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: AeroElectric-List: MX20 vertical stripes Folks, I am about 11 hours in to my flyoff hours for my RV6A and have found what I think is an alternator-based electrical anomaly. When I operate my radio stack from battery power (on the ground) - everythings fine. When I operate my radio stack from alternator power, I get single pixel wide vertical colored stripes on my MX20 display. The stripes don't change with RPM - they just show up when I turn the unit on and annoy me. I still need to determine if it is the B&C 60 or the B&C SD20 making the stripes appear. I'm guessing that it's the 60 since the 20 is a backup that doesn't kick in while the 60 is running. This should be an easy test though as I have individual control of each alternator..... I'll verify good grounds and bonds next weekend. I did not install any additional grounds/bonds/shielding other than what was specified in the install manual and wiring diagrams. I'll be sending this to the Garmin tech support folks to see what they say too - but I'm fairly certain that I can get good scoop here. Thanks, Ralph RV6A N822AR @ N06 10.7hrs in to the fly-off period ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:47 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative From: Normal Misconceptions... Believe it or not we the EPA has rules in PA too. I've hauled batteries out of Decca plants in Allentown and Reading. They paid millions of dollars a year to deal with their waste issue. As far as resources there is nothing left to rape in PA. The old farts had their way years ago. The batteries were taken to a plant in Hatfield, PA, cracked open, drained, acid filtered through water, pressed through sand and the effluent sent over to the sewer treatment plant so it could be setup for your drinking water. The lead and cores would be mixed in concrete, loaded onto dump trucks and then shipped to Michigan/Ohio landfills. There they sit. I've always thought of I-94 as a great place to put landfills and dump all of our crap. Now you know the rest of the story. Enjoy you're drinking water. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nghertner@verizon.net Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:08 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative Yes, Decca battery in PA makes batteries and rapes the environment there. You can take the manufacture elsewhere! ------Original Message------ From: Michael Pereira Sender: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative Sent: Apr 18, 2009 3:18 PM > It wasn't ~intended~ to be "political" - more of a QA issue. > There's been a lot of contaminated product coming from the > PRC. I've seen a lot of poor quality hardware (tools, shop > equipment, electronics) coming from there. Dunno if I want > my electric-dependent airplane to rely on a battery coming > from such an environment. *sighs*. This begs a question. How exactly do you tell if a battery was made in china ? I'd be surprised if someone told me there are still lead/acid battery manufacturers in the United States. It's stone-age tech that involves acid and lead (which the epa has a hard-on for). I'm not talking about the megabuck carbon fiber (to save a few ounces) batteries. Are there American manufacturers ? If so, are any priced low enough that it would be cheaper money (and time) wise just to buy a few generic crap china batteries and test them ? Here's the off topic part. Our inability to maintain a manufacturing base in this country is due to choices made by our government and we are collectively responsible because of the people we elect to represent us. Anyone that knows me, knows I'm straining to not comment on the Cuba comment. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:22 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Low Voltage Warning From: Interesting you brought up this topic. I don't have a best answer for you but I too have had this experience. Here we are spending all this money on fancy alternators and the damn 2 cent connector on the field wire vibrates off the end. How cheap is this @(%*? With all the BS associated with aircraft why can't someone come up with an alternator connector that is tough, supports the wires, the connector and doesn't just vibrate off at the connector? Hell, why not run the field wires through conduit? Time to start inventing. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bakerocb@cox.net Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 3:46 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Low Voltage Warning 4/19/2009 Hello Fellow Listers, A friend recently had an incident where the field wire to the alternator in his Beechcraft Sierra airplane failed. When the alternator stopped putting out amps the batteries (two 12 volt batteries in this 24 volt system airplane) eventually became depleted to the point that nothing electrical in the airplane would work. He landed safely and had the alternator field wire repaired. Now he realizes that attempting to visually monitor his ammeter constantly / frequently in order to detect a low voltage / alternator out situation is not a highly successful solution to such a problem. The question is: "What is the best way to install a readily visable low voltage warning system in this standard type certificated airplane?" Already existing STC's or _____________ ? 'OC' ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:13 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: MX20 vertical stripes Here's where some of that 'education and recreation' comes in.... What is meant by "across the alternator output"? Would one leg of the capacitor be attached to the "B" lead (fat output wire) and the other leg to ground for each of the two alternators? Where would "another one inside the panel" go? Power lead to the affected device and ground? Thanks, Ralph -----Original Message----- >From: wa8vwy2@bellsouth.net >Sent: Apr 20, 2009 9:08 AM >To: RV7A@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [RV Builders] MX20 vertical stripes > >Sounds like RF from the alternator - can come from sparking of the brushes on the field's slip rings. You might want to try a 50 volt, 10 uF ceramic capacitor, leaded version, and put it across the alternator output as close to the alternator as possible. You could also put another one somewhere inside the panel. Check www.digikey.com for the part # 445-2903-ND will cost about $11 for five of them, with shipping included. > >-------------- Original message from "Ralph E. Capen" : -------------- > > >Folks, > >I am about 11 hours in to my flyoff hours for my RV6A and have found what I think is an alternator-based electrical anomaly. > >When I operate my radio stack from battery power (on the ground) - everythings fine. >When I operate my radio stack from alternator power, I get single pixel wide vertical colored stripes on my MX20 display. The stripes don't change with RPM - they just show up when I turn the unit on and annoy me. > >I still need to determine if it is the B&C 60 or the B&C SD20 making the stripes appear. I'm guessing that it's the 60 since the 20 is a backup that doesn't kick in while the 60 is running. This should be an easy test though as I have individual control of each alternator..... > >I'll verify good grounds and bonds next weekend. I did not install any additional grounds/bonds/shielding other than what was specified in the install manual and wiring diagrams. > >I'll be sending this to the Garmin tech support folks to see what they say too - but I'm fairly certain that I can get good scoop here. > >Thanks, >Ralph >RV6A N822AR @ N06 10.7hrs in to the fly-off period > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:02 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MX20 vertical stripes At 07:42 AM 4/20/2009, you wrote: > > >Folks, > >I am about 11 hours in to my flyoff hours for my RV6A and have >found what I think is an alternator-based electrical anomaly. > >When I operate my radio stack from battery power (on the ground) - >everythings fine. >When I operate my radio stack from alternator power, I get single >pixel wide vertical colored stripes on my MX20 display. The stripes >don't change with RPM - they just show up when I turn the unit on and annoy me. > >I still need to determine if it is the B&C 60 or the B&C SD20 making >the stripes appear. I'm guessing that it's the 60 since the 20 is a >backup that doesn't kick in while the 60 is running. This should be >an easy test though as I have individual control of each alternator..... This is a useful experiment. Let us know what you discover. >I'll verify good grounds and bonds next weekend. I did not install >any additional grounds/bonds/shielding other than what was specified >in the install manual and wiring diagrams. > >I'll be sending this to the Garmin tech support folks to see what >they say too - but I'm fairly certain that I can get good scoop here. I can't imagine any anomalous operation of an alternator that would produce so specific a response on the display. See what the SD10/L60 experiment shows and by all means, touch base with Garmin. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:09 AM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative A "bunch of pilots"?...We haven't even gotton to the hows and whys of my Ly coming IO360 not having a mechanical fuel pump yet..:) Frank RV7a Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 3:33 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Odyssey Battery Alternative For a bunch of pilots, you guys are pretty deep. I'm impressed. Your comments caused me to think - now my brain hurts today. Stan Sutterfield Do not archive ________________________________ A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:20 AM PST US From: Ron Quillin Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MX20 vertical stripes From the 480 group on Yahoo. Nothing to suggest supply voltage issues, but at least you know you're not alone. YMMV >Went for a bit of flying yesterday, most all was well. It rained a >bunch since I last flew and was mostly concerned about water in my >fuel tanks, but I think what little I sumped out was from before I >renewed the fuel cap O-rings. > >What wasn't well was the display of my MX20, which gets driven by my >CNX80. There were a number (maybe ~20, probably less than 30) of >vertical lines of one pixel (or pel) in width, of what I think were >the primary colors. I'm originally a hardware design guy and my gut >tells me this is some interconnection problem, maybe a ribbon cable, >a zebra connector, or a socketed IC, that is unhappy with the >general increase in moisture. But my gut has been known to be wrong. > >Is this a near-failure (the MX20 is usable, no other snafus besides >the cosmetic display faults) that anyone has seen before? >Happened to me as well. >The LCD display needs to be replaced by Garmin AT. >It cost me $600 in 2005. >This happened to me a number of years ago, however it started off as >only one or two lines. At the time my unit was still in its >warranty period and so it did not cost anything for the repair >itself, however it had to be returned to Garmin AT. Yours seems >rather dramatic due to the number of vertical lines suddenly displayed. > >Recently, a good friend of mine had a similar problem to what I had >and this was the reply he received from Bill Parsons at Garmin AT: > >That vertical line is caused by an intermittent hardware failure in >the display driver circuitry. If you want to repair the unit it >will have to come back to the factory and be repaired at the flat >rate for the MX20 (approx. $1000). You may wish to let it go for >now. If so, there is no risk to additional damage to the unit. The >problem will eventually occur more frequently, with more lines on >the display. If you want to wait until it's hard to tolerate and >then have it taken care of, that would be OK. >The lines came back, still not very bad. My plane is in the shop at >the moment with a few squawks, including a needed electric Attitude >gyro fix (RC Allen, wouldn't erect reliably, too much jitter when it >did), GAMIjectors and getting a handle on the cause of an oil >consumption issue. It's been cold and wet, with the plane getting >snowed and rained on in the meantime. > >However, the plane was tied down outside the maintenance hangar on >Saturday and I did some fiddling with the MC20/CNX80; the lines were >still there, no worse, no better. The fiddling that needs sharing >with the group is that I removed the MX20 to give it a look over, >and decided to try rapping around the periphery of the display >bezel, calibrated (years of electronics engineering >experience) taps with my knuckles inwards, towards the LCD display. > >Don't try this at home without first saying "don't blame Greg if I >break something" three times. My guess had been the problem is >interconnects between the glass and circuit boards, "zebra" or >similar elastomeric connectors. > >The result? Lines went away. This isn't proof of anything but it >does deepen suspicion that it's a connection issue. $1000 to Garmin >may just pay them to reseat everything and then ship it back without >actually replacing any parts.. At 05:42 4/20/2009, you wrote: > > >Folks, > >I am about 11 hours in to my flyoff hours for my RV6A and have >found what I think is an alternator-based electrical anomaly. > >When I operate my radio stack from battery power (on the ground) - >everythings fine. >When I operate my radio stack from alternator power, I get single >pixel wide vertical colored stripes on my MX20 display. The stripes >don't change with RPM - they just show up when I turn the unit on and annoy me. > >I still need to determine if it is the B&C 60 or the B&C SD20 making >the stripes appear. I'm guessing that it's the 60 since the 20 is a >backup that doesn't kick in while the 60 is running. This should be >an easy test though as I have individual control of each alternator..... > >I'll verify good grounds and bonds next weekend. I did not install >any additional grounds/bonds/shielding other than what was specified >in the install manual and wiring diagrams. > >I'll be sending this to the Garmin tech support folks to see what >they say too - but I'm fairly certain that I can get good scoop here. > >Thanks, >Ralph >RV6A N822AR @ N06 10.7hrs in to the fly-off period ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:48 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Low Voltage Warning At 08:46 AM 4/20/2009, you wrote: > >Interesting you brought up this topic. I don't have a best answer for >you but I too have had this experience. Here we are spending all this >money on fancy alternators and the damn 2 cent connector on the field >wire vibrates off the end. How cheap is this @(%*? With all the BS >associated with aircraft why can't someone come up with an alternator >connector that is tough, supports the wires, the connector and doesn't >just vibrate off at the connector? Hell, why not run the field wires >through conduit? > >Time to start inventing. If the "2-cent terminal" is properly selected/installed it won't vibrate off. This is but one of the variables I spoke about when it comes to the selection of materials and accessories based on perceived quality, robustness or purchase price. There are a variety of terminal configurations for alternators that range from threaded studs to fast-on tabs, etc. No matter what materials are selected, probability of failure to perform has more to do with the user/installer than on the product. Failure to offer a comfortable termination of flight when something breaks has more to do with system architecture and operator understanding than it does with the capabilities of equipment suppliers. In the case of the alternator failure in the Sierra, that alternator could have shut down for a host of reasons. The tense experience the pilot suffered was more a function of architecture (no active notification of low voltage and lack of a well considered plan-A/plan-B escape route) than it was of sleazy materials. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:42 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MX20 vertical stripes Just got off the phone with Garmin (Apollo side). They indicate that it is most likely connector related as indicated below. -----Original Message----- >From: Ron Quillin >Sent: Apr 20, 2009 11:06 AM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MX20 vertical stripes > > From the 480 group on Yahoo. >Nothing to suggest supply voltage issues, but at least you know >you're not alone. >YMMV > >>Went for a bit of flying yesterday, most all was well. It rained a >>bunch since I last flew and was mostly concerned about water in my >>fuel tanks, but I think what little I sumped out was from before I >>renewed the fuel cap O-rings. >> >>What wasn't well was the display of my MX20, which gets driven by my >>CNX80. There were a number (maybe ~20, probably less than 30) of >>vertical lines of one pixel (or pel) in width, of what I think were >>the primary colors. I'm originally a hardware design guy and my gut >>tells me this is some interconnection problem, maybe a ribbon cable, >>a zebra connector, or a socketed IC, that is unhappy with the >>general increase in moisture. But my gut has been known to be wrong. >> >>Is this a near-failure (the MX20 is usable, no other snafus besides >>the cosmetic display faults) that anyone has seen before? > >>Happened to me as well. >>The LCD display needs to be replaced by Garmin AT. >>It cost me $600 in 2005. > >>This happened to me a number of years ago, however it started off as >>only one or two lines. At the time my unit was still in its >>warranty period and so it did not cost anything for the repair >>itself, however it had to be returned to Garmin AT. Yours seems >>rather dramatic due to the number of vertical lines suddenly displayed. >> >>Recently, a good friend of mine had a similar problem to what I had >>and this was the reply he received from Bill Parsons at Garmin AT: >> >>That vertical line is caused by an intermittent hardware failure in >>the display driver circuitry. If you want to repair the unit it >>will have to come back to the factory and be repaired at the flat >>rate for the MX20 (approx. $1000). You may wish to let it go for >>now. If so, there is no risk to additional damage to the unit. The >>problem will eventually occur more frequently, with more lines on >>the display. If you want to wait until it's hard to tolerate and >>then have it taken care of, that would be OK. > >>The lines came back, still not very bad. My plane is in the shop at >>the moment with a few squawks, including a needed electric Attitude >>gyro fix (RC Allen, wouldn't erect reliably, too much jitter when it >>did), GAMIjectors and getting a handle on the cause of an oil >>consumption issue. It's been cold and wet, with the plane getting >>snowed and rained on in the meantime. >> >>However, the plane was tied down outside the maintenance hangar on >>Saturday and I did some fiddling with the MC20/CNX80; the lines were >>still there, no worse, no better. The fiddling that needs sharing >>with the group is that I removed the MX20 to give it a look over, >>and decided to try rapping around the periphery of the display >>bezel, calibrated (years of electronics engineering >>experience) taps with my knuckles inwards, towards the LCD display. >> >>Don't try this at home without first saying "don't blame Greg if I >>break something" three times. My guess had been the problem is >>interconnects between the glass and circuit boards, "zebra" or >>similar elastomeric connectors. >> >>The result? Lines went away. This isn't proof of anything but it >>does deepen suspicion that it's a connection issue. $1000 to Garmin >>may just pay them to reseat everything and then ship it back without >>actually replacing any parts.. > > >At 05:42 4/20/2009, you wrote: >> >> >>Folks, >> >>I am about 11 hours in to my flyoff hours for my RV6A and have >>found what I think is an alternator-based electrical anomaly. >> >>When I operate my radio stack from battery power (on the ground) - >>everythings fine. >>When I operate my radio stack from alternator power, I get single >>pixel wide vertical colored stripes on my MX20 display. The stripes >>don't change with RPM - they just show up when I turn the unit on and annoy me. >> >>I still need to determine if it is the B&C 60 or the B&C SD20 making >>the stripes appear. I'm guessing that it's the 60 since the 20 is a >>backup that doesn't kick in while the 60 is running. This should be >>an easy test though as I have individual control of each alternator..... >> >>I'll verify good grounds and bonds next weekend. I did not install >>any additional grounds/bonds/shielding other than what was specified >>in the install manual and wiring diagrams. >> >>I'll be sending this to the Garmin tech support folks to see what >>they say too - but I'm fairly certain that I can get good scoop here. >> >>Thanks, >>Ralph >>RV6A N822AR @ N06 10.7hrs in to the fly-off period ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:38 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Low Voltage Warning From: "Eric M. Jones" Perihelion Design sells a very cheap LV-Annunciator called a 13V Idiot Light. We sell lots of these to helicopter pilots among others. It uses a blinking 10 mm red LED. See: periheliondesign.com/moreproductsfiles/LV_Annunciator%20Manual.pdf If you want to build your own, I'll email you a schematic on request. It's better to have live potential customers. "THE VERY BIG STUPID" is a thing which breeds by eating The Future. Have you seen it? It sometimes disguises itself as a good-looking quarterly bottom line, derived by closing the R&D Department. --Frank Zappa -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240305#240305 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:30 AM PST US From: "Peter Laurence" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Low Voltage Warning Glenn I too had this issue with B&C's 60Amp alternator. The connector would disconnect do to vibration. I safety wired the connector and it's been fine for the last 400 hundred hours Peter Interesting you brought up this topic. I don't have a best answer for you but I too have had this experience. Here we are spending all this money on fancy alternators and the damn 2 cent connector on the field wire vibrates off the end. How cheap is this @(%*? With all the BS associated with aircraft why can't someone come up with an alternator connector that is tough, supports the wires, the connector and doesn't just vibrate off at the connector? Hell, why not run the field wires through conduit? Time to start inventing. Glenn ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:34 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: MX20 vertical stripes From: "Chuck Jensen" Ralph, I have the same thing with an MX20. I figured it was a connector problem on the side of the display and totally unrelated to anything else. Mine had gotten progressively worse...more stripes, to the point that I was contemplating upgrading to the MX200...then it went away for a couple week, then a couple stripes came back. I still believe it is a side connector issue, but then I don't know much of anything about it, so don't take my advice to the bank and try to cash it. I'm just living with it until it gets worse. Curious. What is you hypothesis how the stripes could be related to the regulator or other electrical component? Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ron Quillin Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 11:06 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MX20 vertical stripes >From the 480 group on Yahoo. Nothing to suggest supply voltage issues, but at least you know you're not alone. YMMV Went for a bit of flying yesterday, most all was well. It rained a bunch since I last flew and was mostly concerned about water in my fuel tanks, but I think what little I sumped out was from before I renewed the fuel cap O-rings. What wasn't well was the display of my MX20, which gets driven by my CNX80. There were a number (maybe ~20, probably less than 30) of vertical lines of one pixel (or pel) in width, of what I think were the primary colors. I'm originally a hardware design guy and my gut tells me this is some interconnection problem, maybe a ribbon cable, a zebra connector, or a socketed IC, that is unhappy with the general increase in moisture. But my gut has been known to be wrong. Is this a near-failure (the MX20 is usable, no other snafus besides the cosmetic display faults) that anyone has seen before? Happened to me as well. The LCD display needs to be replaced by Garmin AT. It cost me $600 in 2005. This happened to me a number of years ago, however it started off as only one or two lines. At the time my unit was still in its warranty period and so it did not cost anything for the repair itself, however it had to be returned to Garmin AT. Yours seems rather dramatic due to the number of vertical lines suddenly displayed. Recently, a good friend of mine had a similar problem to what I had and this was the reply he received from Bill Parsons at Garmin AT: That vertical line is caused by an intermittent hardware failure in the display driver circuitry. If you want to repair the unit it will have to come back to the factory and be repaired at the flat rate for the MX20 (approx. $1000). You may wish to let it go for now. If so, there is no risk to additional damage to the unit. The problem will eventually occur more frequently, with more lines on the display. If you want to wait until it's hard to tolerate and then have it taken care of, that would be OK. The lines came back, still not very bad. My plane is in the shop at the moment with a few squawks, including a needed electric Attitude gyro fix (RC Allen, wouldn't erect reliably, too much jitter when it did), GAMIjectors and getting a handle on the cause of an oil consumption issue. It's been cold and wet, with the plane getting snowed and rained on in the meantime. However, the plane was tied down outside the maintenance hangar on Saturday and I did some fiddling with the MC20/CNX80; the lines were still there, no worse, no better. The fiddling that needs sharing with the group is that I removed the MX20 to give it a look over, and decided to try rapping around the periphery of the display bezel, calibrated (years of electronics engineering experience) taps with my knuckles inwards, towards the LCD display. Don't try this at home without first saying "don't blame Greg if I break something" three times. My guess had been the problem is interconnects between the glass and circuit boards, "zebra" or similar elastomeric connectors. The result? Lines went away. This isn't proof of anything but it does deepen suspicion that it's a connection issue. $1000 to Garmin may just pay them to reseat everything and then ship it back without actually replacing any parts.. At 05:42 4/20/2009, you wrote: Folks, I am about 11 hours in to my flyoff hours for my RV6A and have found what I think is an alternator-based electrical anomaly. When I operate my radio stack from battery power (on the ground) - everythings fine. When I operate my radio stack from alternator power, I get single pixel wide vertical colored stripes on my MX20 display. The stripes don't change with RPM - they just show up when I turn the unit on and annoy me. I still need to determine if it is the B&C 60 or the B&C SD20 making the stripes appear. I'm guessing that it's the 60 since the 20 is a backup that doesn't kick in while the 60 is running. This should be an easy test though as I have individual control of each alternator..... I'll verify good grounds and bonds next weekend. I did not install any additional grounds/bonds/shielding other than what was specified in the install manual and wiring diagrams. I'll be sending this to the Garmin tech support folks to see what they say too - but I'm fairly certain that I can get good scoop here. Thanks, Ralph RV6A N822AR @ N06 10.7hrs in to the fly-off period ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:38 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strippers are back . . . My supplier has cleaned up and tested antoher small batch of miniature Tefzel wire srippers. https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AECcatalog.html Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:59 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strippers are back . . . Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > My supplier has cleaned up and tested antoher > small batch of miniature Tefzel wire srippers. > > https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AECcatalog.html Bob, I won't be able to get messages from this list at work or home if you keep using subject lines like that. -- http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strippers are back . . . From: "Matt Prather" With an email Subject like that, how could it not get lodged in the spam filter?? :) Oh yeah, I guess that it's from the AeroElectric-List should make it okay.. Matt- do not archive > > > My supplier has cleaned up and tested antoher > small batch of miniature Tefzel wire srippers. > > https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AECcatalog.html > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative From: Michael Pereira > *sighs*. This begs a question. How exactly do you tell if a battery > was made in china? > > Under most trade rules it has to say so on the outside > of the product. Ok, I had come to the conclusion this couldn't be relied on anymore. Or in other words. Certain Honda cars have more North American content than some of our domestic models. I guess it doesn't make economic sense to produce the components of a lead-acid battery and assemble them here. > I'd be surprised if someone told me there are > still lead/acid battery manufacturers in the United States. It's stone-age > tech that involves acid and lead (which the epa has a hard-on for). I'm > not talking about the megabuck carbon fiber (to save a few ounces) > batteries. > > Are there American manufacturers ? If so, are any priced low enough > that it would be cheaper money (and time) wise just to buy a few > generic crap china batteries and test them ? > > There are many American manufacturers of all kinds of > batteries . . . especially that arcane lead-acid technology > And the EPA has a hard-on for everybody. It's how they > keep their job and justify 75% of base pay retirement for life. > > Most noteworthy are Concorde, Hawker-Enersys (I've been > through BOTH of these facilities), > > http://tinyurl.com/cp2bsv > > http://tinyurl.com/ceuvca > > and a host of smaller players like > > http://tinyurl.com/c8mty5 > > http://tinyurl.com/cru78p > > . . . the complete list is quite long. Actually, > lead-acid battery manufacturing is probably one of the > most enviro-friendly secondary battery technologies. > The materials are highly recyclable and the total > energy to manufacture a lead-acid battery yields > a better return on investment of most battery > technologies. > > You can eat your lunch off about any surface > in the Concorde or Hawker-Enersys plants without > fear of consequences. Blood levels of lead for > employees runs less than national average of > lead from natural sources. > > Here's the off topic part. Our inability to maintain a manufacturing base > in this country is due to choices made by our government and we are > collectively responsible because of the people we elect to represent us. > > Sort of . . . but not always the case. For example, > had we mandated the US manufacture of all components > necessary to fabricate a computer, we would not > see deals like this . . . Sorry, I tamed my original message down because I didn't want to anger the 50 percent of the people on the other side of the political spectrum from me too much. It lost meaning in the translation. I don't have an issue with free trade. I do have issue with our government creating conditions where the cost of doing business is so much higher in this country that we lose entire industries offshore. I've been educated in this thread and see that the clothing and sneakers are a better example of that than lead acid batteries. > http://tinyurl.com/cxtmpl > > The recipe for success in any endeavor is to be > competitive with ALL other suppliers. When somebody > whips yer sox off then it's time to get competitive > or find a new activity where your investment of $time$, > talent and resources have a better pay back. > > Clinging to any facet of the flow of value between > suppliers and consumers of an honorable free market > is fraught with disappointment. Suppliers of > floppy disks, CP/M operating systems, and core > memory have most recently discovered this. It's trivia but C/PM died because Gary Kildall blew off IBM when they came looking for something to run the original IBM PC. They ended up going to a middleman that bought the rights to an inferior (knock-off of c/pm) operating system and did nothing more than *license* (instead of sell) the rights to IBM. This is probably the clearest example of a good business idea being exponentially more profitable than hard work in this world. That guy was named Bill Gates. Gary's attitude made him poor and provided Gates the starting capital for the business he used to create his wealth. I have no idea who originally wrote DOS, it won't really be dead until the last computer running windows 98 finally dies and every embedded device running it is replaced (BG will still be collecting license fees for it for at least another decade). c'ya, Michael ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:59 PM PST US From: Steve Thomas Subject: Re: DOS was:AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative I hate to tell you this, but Windows Vista still runs DOS. And so will Windoze 7. DOS won't die until Microsoft decides to completely rewrite the OS, like Apple did with OS X. Steve ________________________________________________________________________ On Apr 20, 2009, at 1:54 PM, Michael Pereira wrote: > I have no idea who originally wrote DOS, it won't really be dead until > the last computer running windows 98 finally dies and every embedded > device running it is replaced (BG will still be collecting license > fees for it for at least another decade). ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:29 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Com Antenna Question From: Jack Haviland The aircraft com antennas I'm familiar with are "open" when an ohmmeter is used to test for continuity between the active element and ground connection. However a Dorne & Margolin DM C 70-1/A antenna indicated a "short" when tested this way. Is it defective or does it contain elements that conduct at DC but provide the proper impedance at com frequencies? Jack H. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:28 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Alternative Tim Patterson, the then kid at the Retail Computer Store on Green Lake in Seattle who assembled my first computer for me, a Sol 20, was who later wrote the original DOS that became MS-DOS and IBM-DOS. He had a company named Seattle Computer which was who Microsoft bought it from. I have heard that it was a re-write of Kildal's C/PM, but I don't know that for sure. I do remember that very similar commands had slightly different syntax in DOS vs. C/PM. But then I have always been in over my head with computers, which is why I had the Sol 20 kit assembled by the Retail Computer Store way back when. Terry I have no idea who originally wrote DOS, it won't really be dead until the last computer running windows 98 finally dies and every embedded device running it is replaced (BG will still be collecting license fees for it for at least another decade). c'ya, Michael ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:46 PM PST US From: Dale Rogers Subject: AeroElectric-List: OT: Operating Systems (was: Odyssey Battery Alternative) Yup, MS DOS v1.n was a rewrite of CP/M86 (Control Program / Microcomputer for the 8086 processor). DOS v2.n was an entirely new kernel, with a command set largely stolen from Digital Equipment Corp.'s VMS (currently owned by Hewlett-Packard), and a file structure modeled after U**x. MD DOS v2 was a good move, making the command set much less cryptic than CP/M, and a file structure that would easily translate to the standard of what would in 10 years become "the Internet". Apple's OS X wasn't exactly a "new" write by apple. They built a GUI based OS on a new kernel developed by NeXT; it was pretty much the same U**x kernel used by freeBSD. Steve Thomas wrote: > I hate to tell you this, but Windows Vista still runs DOS. And so will Windoze 7. DOS won't die until Microsoft decides to completely rewrite the OS, like Apple did with OS X. Personally, I think it will be a sad day if MickeySoft ever does this. One of the main reasons I use Windoze over other OS products is the fine control I get from the DOS command line. Apple has nothing that is truly comparable. A cool GUI is not sufficient for my needs. It might be noted, too, that MS had continued to add features and refinements to the DOS command set, even through the Win2000, Win-XP rewrites. Dunno about Vista, still no experience with it. Dale R. COZY MkIV #0497 Ch. 13 (Who still has a working - but rarely used - CP/M machine, a DEC Rainbow; it also runs MS-DOS v2.11) Terry Watson wrote: > > Tim Patterson, the then kid at the Retail Computer Store on Green Lake in > Seattle who assembled my first computer for me, a Sol 20, was who later > wrote the original DOS that became MS-DOS and IBM-DOS. He had a company > named Seattle Computer which was who Microsoft bought it from. I have heard > that it was a re-write of Kildal's C/PM, but I don't know that for sure. I > do remember that very similar commands had slightly different syntax in DOS > vs. C/PM. But then I have always been in over my head with computers, which > is why I had the Sol 20 kit assembled by the Retail Computer Store way back > when. > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:31 PM PST US From: Jason Beaver Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT: Operating Systems (was: Odyssey Battery Alternative) This is starting to get pretty far of topic, but the command line control available in MacOS X is far superior to the DOS command line prompt in Windows. I've used both extensively for years and DOS is a toy compared to any of the unix shells in OS X (sh, csh, ksh, tcsh, bash, zsh, etc.). Jason On Apr 20, 2009, at 5:08 PM, Dale Rogers wrote: > > Yup, MS DOS v1.n was a rewrite of CP/M86 (Control Program / > Microcomputer for the 8086 processor). DOS v2.n was an entirely new > kernel, with a command set largely stolen from Digital Equipment > Corp.'s VMS (currently owned by Hewlett-Packard), and a file > structure modeled after U**x. > > MD DOS v2 was a good move, making the command set much less cryptic > than CP/M, and a file structure that would easily translate to the > standard of what would in 10 years become "the Internet". > Apple's OS X wasn't exactly a "new" write by apple. They built a > GUI based OS on a new kernel developed by NeXT; it was pretty much > the same U**x kernel used by freeBSD. > Steve Thomas wrote: > > > I hate to tell you this, but Windows Vista still runs DOS. And so > will Windoze 7. DOS won't die until Microsoft decides to completely > rewrite the OS, like Apple did with OS X. > > Personally, I think it will be a sad day if MickeySoft ever does > this. One of the main reasons I use Windoze over other OS products > is the fine control I get from the DOS command line. Apple has > nothing that is truly comparable. A cool GUI is not sufficient for > my needs. > > It might be noted, too, that MS had continued to add features and > refinements to the DOS command set, even through the Win2000, Win-XP > rewrites. Dunno about Vista, still no experience with it. > > Dale R. > COZY MkIV #0497 > Ch. 13 > (Who still has a working - but rarely used - CP/M machine, a DEC > Rainbow; it also runs MS-DOS v2.11) > > Terry Watson wrote: >> > >> >> Tim Patterson, the then kid at the Retail Computer Store on Green >> Lake in >> Seattle who assembled my first computer for me, a Sol 20, was who >> later >> wrote the original DOS that became MS-DOS and IBM-DOS. He had a >> company >> named Seattle Computer which was who Microsoft bought it from. I >> have heard >> that it was a re-write of Kildal's C/PM, but I don't know that for >> sure. I >> do remember that very similar commands had slightly different >> syntax in DOS >> vs. C/PM. But then I have always been in over my head with >> computers, which >> is why I had the Sol 20 kit assembled by the Retail Computer Store >> way back >> when. >> > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:50 PM PST US From: Robert Borger Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT: Operating Systems (was: Odyssey Battery Alternative) Dale, Mac OS X is BSD UNIX and in addition to the best GUI ever developed there still exists the UNIX command line interface for the "fine control" you desire. Just open a "Terminal" window and enter your desired UNIX command string. The classic UNIX "Console" is also available to display system output. As an old UNIX guy I find Mac OS X to be just jim-dandy. Your mileage may vary based upon your own experience path... Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL Aircraft Flying! 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Apr 20, 2009, at 19:08, Dale Rogers wrote: > > Yup, MS DOS v1.n was a rewrite of CP/M86 (Control Program / > Microcomputer for the 8086 processor). DOS v2.n was an entirely new > kernel, with a command set largely stolen from Digital Equipment > Corp.'s VMS (currently owned by Hewlett-Packard), and a file > structure modeled after U**x. > > MD DOS v2 was a good move, making the command set much less cryptic > than CP/M, and a file structure that would easily translate to the > standard of what would in 10 years become "the Internet". > Apple's OS X wasn't exactly a "new" write by apple. They built a > GUI based OS on a new kernel developed by NeXT; it was pretty much > the same U**x kernel used by freeBSD. > Steve Thomas wrote: > > > I hate to tell you this, but Windows Vista still runs DOS. And so > will Windoze 7. DOS won't die until Microsoft decides to completely > rewrite the OS, like Apple did with OS X. > > Personally, I think it will be a sad day if MickeySoft ever does > this. One of the main reasons I use Windoze over other OS products > is the fine control I get from the DOS command line. Apple has > nothing that is truly comparable. A cool GUI is not sufficient for > my needs. > > It might be noted, too, that MS had continued to add features and > refinements to the DOS command set, even through the Win2000, Win-XP > rewrites. Dunno about Vista, still no experience with it. > > Dale R. > COZY MkIV #0497 > Ch. 13 > (Who still has a working - but rarely used - CP/M machine, a DEC > Rainbow; it also runs MS-DOS v2.11) ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:14 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT: Operating Systems (was: Odyssey Battery Alternative) From: Dj Merrill On 4/20/2009 8:08 PM, Dale Rogers wrote: > Personally, I think it will be a sad day if MickeySoft ever does > this. One of the main reasons I use Windoze over other OS products is > the fine control I get from the DOS command line. Apple has nothing > that is truly comparable. A cool GUI is not sufficient for my needs. Hi Dale, You should try Linux or Mac OSX. With the Unix command shell, you'll get an order of magnitude better control in the command line environment versus any version of Windows. On top of that, you also get the GUI with either of these OSs. If you want to try a version of Linux, go to http://centos.org/ and you can download and legally run the Centos distribution for free that is 100% Redhat compatible. There are several other distributions that you could run for free, too (Ubuntoo, Debian, and Gentoo to name a few). fyi -Dj do not archive -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ KR-2 Builder N770DJ http://deej.net/sportsman/ http://deej.net/kr-2/ "Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:10 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: WIRE Strippers are back . . . >Bob, I won't be able to get messages from this list at work or home > if you keep using subject lines like that. Hmmmm . . . must be getting old. That one totally flew past me! Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:57 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Com Antenna Question At 05:15 PM 4/20/2009, you wrote: > >The aircraft com antennas I'm familiar with are "open" when an ohmmeter is >used to test for continuity between the active element and ground >connection. However a Dorne & Margolin DM C 70-1/A antenna indicated a >"short" when tested this way. Is it defective or does it contain elements >that conduct at DC but provide the proper impedance at com frequencies? The antennas least vulnerable to precipitation static have DC continuity to ground. What you're seeing is the DM antenna is probably normal. The only reliable way to "scope" an antenna is with some measure of impedance at the operating frequency. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:20 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Choices . . . Which to me means a reputable source as opposed to an unknown. I also realise that just because something is brand new out of the box does not mean it will live up to the advertising and in my career have hade many a bad brand new part. I am trying to say here is that preference wise, the chance preferred to be taken , is with the reputable manufacturer as opposed to the unknown. My logic also goes back to my time in the Boy Scouts, "Be Prepared" which in the age of cheap crap foreign or domestic is even more important. Joe Motis Plan for the best and be prepared for the worst No archive In a message dated 4/19/2009 12:40:58 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: but it demands some attention to detail. **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooter420NO62) ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Low Voltage Warning From: Bob Verwey Eric, I wouldn't mind a copy of that schematic myself. Another potential customer? We find here in South Africa that shipping on small items far exceeds the cost, making it difficult sometimes. I have however perused your "helmetted" site as few times and find it very interesting. Bob Verwey A35 South africa On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 5:41 PM, Eric M. Jones wrote: > emjones@charter.net> > > Perihelion Design sells a very cheap LV-Annunciator called a 13V Idiot > Light. We sell lots of these to helicopter pilots among others. It uses a > blinking 10 mm red LED. > > See: > periheliondesign.com/moreproductsfiles/LV_Annunciator%20Manual.pdf > > If you want to build your own, I'll email you a schematic on request. It's > better to have live potential customers. > > "THE VERY BIG STUPID" is a thing which breeds by eating The Future. Have > you seen it? It sometimes disguises itself as a good-looking quarterly > bottom line, derived by closing the R&D Department. > --Frank Zappa > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240305#240305 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.