Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:44 AM - Re: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 05:06 AM - Re: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ? (Peter Laurence)
3. 05:38 AM - Grounds & noise (Sam Hoskins)
4. 06:54 AM - Re: What a glide ratio! (Ed Anderson)
5. 09:25 AM - Re: What a glide ratio! (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
6. 09:50 AM - Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic connections? (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US)
7. 11:50 AM - Re: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ? (Glaeser, Dennis A)
8. 12:17 PM - Re: Grounds & noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 01:23 PM - Re: Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic connections? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 05:26 PM - Re: Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic connections? (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US)
11. 07:20 PM - Re Mixing electrical and pneumatic connections? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode |
?
At 10:18 PM 4/27/2009, you wrote:
>Hello, Hello,
>
>Wondering if anyone has tried using dual Schottky diodes to power
>fuel injectors and ignition coils from two batteries ?
>
>I'm looking for a 2 battery system with fuel injectors and ignition
>coils fed directly from both batteries.
>
>If one battery fails the other battery automatically powers
>injectors & coils (and is isolated from bad battery by Schottky).
>
>Any thoughts ?
That's the idea behind the power distribution
architecture described in Figure Z-19 at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z19-RBA1.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z19-RBA2.pdf
The drawing suggests bridge rectifier diodes as the
low parts count solution . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/diode_wiring.jpg
. . . but diodes of your choice may be substituted if
sufficiently rated. One example among several can be
seen here:
http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9001/IM9001-700A.pdf
If you've not studied the philosophy of failure tolerant
architecture and fabrication of electrical systems, may I
suggest a copy of the AeroElectric Connection (in particular
chapter 17) and a running conversation with the learned
folks here on the List will assist you in moving your
project forward with confidence and understanding.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 2
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| Subject: | ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ? |
Mike
Check with a company called SDS. http://www.sdsefi.com/ They sell an
electronic fuel injection system. One has been their RV6A for a few years.
I know that it's narrowing pretty tightly with using a Schotty, but, can't
hurt to ask.
Peter
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike West
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 11:19 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ?
Hello, Hello,
Wondering if anyone has tried using dual Schottky diodes to power fuel
injectors and ignition coils from two batteries ?
I'm looking for a 2 battery system with fuel injectors and ignition coils
fed directly from both batteries.
If one battery fails the other battery automatically powers injectors &
coils (and is isolated from bad battery by Schottky).
Any thoughts ?
Thanks,
-Mike
PDF attached
_____
Windows LiveT SkyDriveT: Get 25 GB of free online storage. Check it out.
<http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_042009>
Message 3
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This is a re-post from the Rotary Engines list, by Tracy Crook, owner of
Real World Solutions, in response to a builder whose ECU seemed to reprogram
itself. It is very interesting to me because I am half way through trouble
shooting a magneticly induced noise problem (see www.samhoskins.bolgspot.com
).
My experience so far indicates that electrical noise in various parts of
> the electrical system is the cause of the 'spontaneous' programming errors.
> This is a long subject that I am going to have to address. It has to do
> with the physical arrangement of the aircraft electrical system, not an
> error in connections. There is no one simple fix for this kind of problem
> which is caused by builders having no guidlines on how to avoid this kind
> of
> thing. Bad radio installation practices or poor antenna design or
> installation can also be a nightmare to explain or fix.
>
> I talked to a number of vendors of aircraft systems at SnF that are having
> a
> hell of a time addressing this. Everything from auto pilots to Glass
> cockpit makers are having this problem. Builders always conclude that we
> are passing the buck when we say that electrical noise is the problem.
> And
> that's just a polite way of saying that "Your electrical system and layout
> sucks". Even very knowledgable builders can fall into this problem.
> Mike
> Wills made a technically perfect system with a Single Point ground scheme
> which is theoretically the right thing to do but the single point ground
> had
> a very high noise impedance due to the long distance between it and the
> main
> noise damper (the battery).
>
> Here is a VERY abreviated guideline. If you do a single point ground
> system, make it at (or very near) the negative terminal of the battery and
> ground the airframe close to it. Have independant power feeds from the
> battery positive terminal for the noise producing things and the noise
> sensitive things. Do these two things and noise problems will be rare.
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | What a glide ratio! |
I once glided 12 statue miles in an RV-6A from 9500 feet, engine totally
out, prop not windmilling at a nominal indicated airspeed of 87 mph. I had
two choices both 12 miles distant, one of which required a 120 deg turn to
the left - but, it was downwind and the one I selected (that Garmin 195 with
its nearest button repaid all of its cost on that day). Approx 8 - 9
minutes later I arrived off the upwind end of the runway with sufficient
altitude to do a 360 deg turn and two hard "S" turns to bleed off altitude.
Still crossed the fence around 100 mph but having a 4000 ft runway made that
a non- factor.
As best I could calculate from the altitude, distance, etc I came up with a
glide ratio of 9.8:1. Slightly short of the 10:1 advertised by Van, but
then my glide speeds were undoubtedly not optimum over the entire period.
However, didn't collect wind data other than knowing it was downwind. That
was my experience. No damage to anything but my nerves and seat cushion.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
<http://www.andersonee.com> http://www.andersonee.com
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
<http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm>
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
McAllister
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What a glide ratio!
Hi all,
Well I am curious as to what the glide ratio actually is. On listening to
the tapes he was 18 miles out at 7000 feet. The field elevation was 1500
feet so that gave him 5500' to play with. According to my rough
calculations that is about 18:1 which seems pretty high. Tail wind perhaps
?
>From listening to the tapes everyone kept there cool, quite an impressive
display of airman ship.
Paul
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: What a glide ratio! |
I read about this landing but didn't pay any attention to the airport or
location. But now I realize that I've spent a lot of time polishing the
ridges all around that area racing sailplanes. Even with a 40:1 glide
ration, trying to find a field from 1500'AGL gets you heart racing in
that area. One valley will have flat farm land, the very next will not
have a enough cleared space to park a car. Much more of the latter in
that particular 10 mile circle.
Anyone who has driven the PA Turnpike through the Bedford area pretty
much gets the picture. Not a good place for setting one down at night.
The roads are definitely not a good option there. He's lucky to have
not gone dead stick and very good to have kept his cool.
Thanks Bob
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> Audio track for an engine-out emergency that
> had a happy ending . . .
>
> http://media.aopa.org/mp3/n613jm.mp3
>
> at this airport . . .
>
> http://www.airnav.com/airport/KAOO
>
> Airplane was a Columbia built in 2006 . . .
>
> * http://tinyurl.com/ddveqa*
> *
> *
Message 6
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| Subject: | Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic connections? |
Anyone have any downside comments on mixing electrical and pneumatic
connections on the same connector?
Plan is to mix 8 electrical
and 3 pneumatic on port wing connector, and 6 electrical and 1
pneumatic on starboard wing connector.
The Anderson power pole
connectors are reasonably water resistant if you seal the wire side with
thin non corrosive silicone.
Want to teather the wing side
connector with 2 very thin bungee cords to root rib flange. Can easily
extend bungee to connect with a 6" wing to fuse gap.
See:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album162&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Thanking all in advance
Ron Parigoris
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ? |
I'm doing that with my Subaru engine. I do have dual ignition switches,
but when both are on for takeoffs and landings, it is exactly what you
describe.
My architecture is essentially Z-19.
Dennis Glaeser
-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mike West
Hello
Wondering if anyone has tried using dual Schottky diodes to power fuel
injectors and ignition coils from two batteries ?
I'm looking for a 2 battery system with fuel injectors and ignition
coils fed directly from both batteries.
If one battery fails the other battery automatically powers injectors &
coils (and is isolated from bad battery by Schottky).
Any thoughts ?
Thanks
-Mike
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Grounds & noise |
. . . Even very knowledgeable builders can fall into this problem. Mike
Wills made a technically perfect system with a Single Point ground scheme
which is theoretically the right thing to do but the single point ground had
a very high noise impedance due to the long distance between it and the main
noise damper (the battery).
Here is a VERY abbreviated guideline. If you do a single point ground
system, make it at (or very near) the negative terminal of the battery and
ground the airframe close to it. Have independent power feeds from the
battery positive terminal for the noise producing things and the noise
sensitive things. Do these two things and noise problems will be rare.
I wish it were that simple. The battery's ability to shunt bus
voltage perturbations to ground is very limited. I recall seeing
a shunt impedance versus frequency plots of various batteries
over the years and recall noting meager noise mitigation effects.
If I can find some of those plots, I'll post them.
I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of antagonist/victim
situations encountered by the OBAM aircraft community can be
solved by an investigation of the DO-160/Mil-STD-704 characteristics
of the major players.
704 says . . .
(1) The bus is loaded with certain kinds of crap.
(2) Learn to control it at practical levels consistent
with state of the art . . .
(3) and live with the rest of it.
160 says . . .
(1) the electrical environment (conducted and radiated)
is loaded with certain kinds of crap.
(2) Control thy emissions to practical limits established
by our state of the art . . .
(2) Expect a certain amount of smelly stuff to be left
over . . . learn to live with it.
While there may be many an anecdotal report of success
for the re-arrangement of wires, ground locations,
filters, shields, etc. etc. they are seldom if ever
joined by a qualitative and quantified description
of the noise, propagation mode and the simple-ideas
that led to an artful recipe for success. Most often,
there's a sort of "swaptronics" approach to stirring
the stew of ideas and parts until the problem goes away
or at least becomes tolerable.
I'm not suggesting that folks should not experiment
to what ever amount of $time$ they're willing to
spend. I will suggest that apparent successes that
fall out of random experiments are at risk for not
becoming recipes for success. I.e. repeatable
experiments. I will also suggest that if your system
is assembled per the recommendations of any of the
Z-figures that the probability of having a "704
issue" is small. This leaves newly discovered victims
with their "160 shorts" down around their ankles.
I'll see if I can find that data on batteries-as-filters.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic |
connections?
At 11:44 AM 4/28/2009, you wrote:
Anyone have any downside comments on mixing electrical and pneumatic
connections on the same connector?
Plan is to mix 8 electrical and 3 pneumatic on port wing
connector, and 6 electrical and 1 pneumatic on starboard wing connector.
The Anderson power pole connectors are reasonably water resistant if
you seal the wire side with thin non corrosive silicone.
Want to tether the wing side connector with 2 very thin bungee cords
to root rib flange. Can easily extend bungee to connect with a 6"
wing to fuse gap.
See:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album162&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Thanking all in advance
How many times over the lifetime of the airplane do you
expect to open these connections?
You're about to conduct the grand experiment. You have
a real life test going on connector technologies, assy
techniques and modifications to off-the-shelf products
to satisfy design goals. I'm not sure that the germane
question speaks to "mixing electrical and pneumatic"
connections in the same connector. You're plowing new
ground here. The experience-base from which learned
advice can be gleaned is small to non-existent. You're
on track to becoming the expert on these process and
techniques. Let us know how it works out.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic |
connections?
Hi Bob
"> How many times over the lifetime of the
airplane do you
> expect to open these connections?"
****Many! I have both 27 foot span short wings and 48 foot span
long wings. Early on will probably trailer to go flying since the hangar I
am building in is at an inappropriate field for first 40 hours. After
that, wings will be pulled at least every year, probably more. 4 pins and
my two wing connectors and wings come right off. The wings are dry and
haveneat quick connect aileron and flap attachments that require no
loose hardware.
> You're about to conduct the grand
experiment. You have
> a real life test going on connector
technologies, assy
> techniques and modifications to
off-the-shelf products
> to satisfy design goals. I'm not sure
that the germane
> question speaks to "mixing electrical and
pneumatic"
> connections in the same connector. You're
plowing new
> ground here. The experience-base from which learned
> advice can be gleaned is small to non-existent. You're
> on track to becoming the expert on these process and
>
techniques. Let us know how it works out.
****I will post
how things work out. I now have close to 10 years experiance using
Anderson power pole and Sermos modular connectors flying electric models.
Wet grass and the ocassional salt water landing has never failed a
connector! The only failure I had was when breaking new ground and pulling
continuous 40 plus amps (I am sure plenty more on start up of 3 phase DC
motor) on a 3/4 horsepower monster, and the connector began to show signs
of heating. At the field that day I just bent contacts a little harder
against one another, and it worked fine for the day. I however don't use
them for more than half their rating now and have never had another
problem. I parallel two connectors if it is a critical connection. I never
had a connector come undone in RC flight, but close after having a mid air
one day. For the Europa I think it prudent to have some posative locking
though. The buckles I am implimenting work great! iIam using them to hold
my removable nav/com antenna and cable holder in place. See:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album272&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Glider folk use the 5 connection pneumatic connector with great
sucess. They remove wings all the time.
Ron Parigoris
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re Mixing electrical and pneumatic connections? |
>
>Glider folk use the 5 connection pneumatic connector with great
>sucess. They remove wings all the time.
Understand. Looks interesting. Hope you'll do a
how-to article for the website if you're still
happy with these in a year or so!
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
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