AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Tue 04/28/09


Total Messages Posted: 11



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:44 AM - Re: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 05:06 AM - Re: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ? (Peter Laurence)
     3. 05:38 AM - Grounds & noise (Sam Hoskins)
     4. 06:54 AM - Re: What a glide ratio! (Ed Anderson)
     5. 09:25 AM - Re: What a glide ratio! (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
     6. 09:50 AM - Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic connections? (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US)
     7. 11:50 AM - Re: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ? (Glaeser, Dennis A)
     8. 12:17 PM - Re: Grounds & noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 01:23 PM - Re: Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic connections? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 05:26 PM - Re: Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic connections? (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US)
    11. 07:20 PM - Re Mixing electrical and pneumatic connections? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:44:16 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode
    ? At 10:18 PM 4/27/2009, you wrote: >Hello, Hello, > >Wondering if anyone has tried using dual Schottky diodes to power >fuel injectors and ignition coils from two batteries ? > >I'm looking for a 2 battery system with fuel injectors and ignition >coils fed directly from both batteries. > >If one battery fails the other battery automatically powers >injectors & coils (and is isolated from bad battery by Schottky). > >Any thoughts ? That's the idea behind the power distribution architecture described in Figure Z-19 at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z19-RBA1.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z19-RBA2.pdf The drawing suggests bridge rectifier diodes as the low parts count solution . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/diode_wiring.jpg . . . but diodes of your choice may be substituted if sufficiently rated. One example among several can be seen here: http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9001/IM9001-700A.pdf If you've not studied the philosophy of failure tolerant architecture and fabrication of electrical systems, may I suggest a copy of the AeroElectric Connection (in particular chapter 17) and a running conversation with the learned folks here on the List will assist you in moving your project forward with confidence and understanding. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:06:39 AM PST US
    From: "Peter Laurence" <dr.laurence@mbdi.org>
    Subject: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ?
    Mike Check with a company called SDS. http://www.sdsefi.com/ They sell an electronic fuel injection system. One has been their RV6A for a few years. I know that it's narrowing pretty tightly with using a Schotty, but, can't hurt to ask. Peter _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike West Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 11:19 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ? Hello, Hello, Wondering if anyone has tried using dual Schottky diodes to power fuel injectors and ignition coils from two batteries ? I'm looking for a 2 battery system with fuel injectors and ignition coils fed directly from both batteries. If one battery fails the other battery automatically powers injectors & coils (and is isolated from bad battery by Schottky). Any thoughts ? Thanks, -Mike PDF attached _____ Windows LiveT SkyDriveT: Get 25 GB of free online storage. Check it out. <http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_042009>


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:38:04 AM PST US
    Subject: Grounds & noise
    From: Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@gmail.com>
    This is a re-post from the Rotary Engines list, by Tracy Crook, owner of Real World Solutions, in response to a builder whose ECU seemed to reprogram itself. It is very interesting to me because I am half way through trouble shooting a magneticly induced noise problem (see www.samhoskins.bolgspot.com ). My experience so far indicates that electrical noise in various parts of > the electrical system is the cause of the 'spontaneous' programming errors. > This is a long subject that I am going to have to address. It has to do > with the physical arrangement of the aircraft electrical system, not an > error in connections. There is no one simple fix for this kind of problem > which is caused by builders having no guidlines on how to avoid this kind > of > thing. Bad radio installation practices or poor antenna design or > installation can also be a nightmare to explain or fix. > > I talked to a number of vendors of aircraft systems at SnF that are having > a > hell of a time addressing this. Everything from auto pilots to Glass > cockpit makers are having this problem. Builders always conclude that we > are passing the buck when we say that electrical noise is the problem. > And > that's just a polite way of saying that "Your electrical system and layout > sucks". Even very knowledgable builders can fall into this problem. > Mike > Wills made a technically perfect system with a Single Point ground scheme > which is theoretically the right thing to do but the single point ground > had > a very high noise impedance due to the long distance between it and the > main > noise damper (the battery). > > Here is a VERY abreviated guideline. If you do a single point ground > system, make it at (or very near) the negative terminal of the battery and > ground the airframe close to it. Have independant power feeds from the > battery positive terminal for the noise producing things and the noise > sensitive things. Do these two things and noise problems will be rare. >


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:54:14 AM PST US
    From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
    Subject: What a glide ratio!
    I once glided 12 statue miles in an RV-6A from 9500 feet, engine totally out, prop not windmilling at a nominal indicated airspeed of 87 mph. I had two choices both 12 miles distant, one of which required a 120 deg turn to the left - but, it was downwind and the one I selected (that Garmin 195 with its nearest button repaid all of its cost on that day). Approx 8 - 9 minutes later I arrived off the upwind end of the runway with sufficient altitude to do a 360 deg turn and two hard "S" turns to bleed off altitude. Still crossed the fence around 100 mph but having a 4000 ft runway made that a non- factor. As best I could calculate from the altitude, distance, etc I came up with a glide ratio of 9.8:1. Slightly short of the 10:1 advertised by Van, but then my glide speeds were undoubtedly not optimum over the entire period. However, didn't collect wind data other than knowing it was downwind. That was my experience. No damage to anything but my nerves and seat cushion. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com <http://www.andersonee.com> http://www.andersonee.com <http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ <http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm <http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html> _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:39 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What a glide ratio! Hi all, Well I am curious as to what the glide ratio actually is. On listening to the tapes he was 18 miles out at 7000 feet. The field elevation was 1500 feet so that gave him 5500' to play with. According to my rough calculations that is about 18:1 which seems pretty high. Tail wind perhaps ? >From listening to the tapes everyone kept there cool, quite an impressive display of airman ship. Paul __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:25:50 AM PST US
    From: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: What a glide ratio!
    I read about this landing but didn't pay any attention to the airport or location. But now I realize that I've spent a lot of time polishing the ridges all around that area racing sailplanes. Even with a 40:1 glide ration, trying to find a field from 1500'AGL gets you heart racing in that area. One valley will have flat farm land, the very next will not have a enough cleared space to park a car. Much more of the latter in that particular 10 mile circle. Anyone who has driven the PA Turnpike through the Bedford area pretty much gets the picture. Not a good place for setting one down at night. The roads are definitely not a good option there. He's lucky to have not gone dead stick and very good to have kept his cool. Thanks Bob Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > Audio track for an engine-out emergency that > had a happy ending . . . > > http://media.aopa.org/mp3/n613jm.mp3 > > at this airport . . . > > http://www.airnav.com/airport/KAOO > > Airplane was a Columbia built in 2006 . . . > > * http://tinyurl.com/ddveqa* > * > *


    Message 6


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    Time: 09:50:23 AM PST US
    Subject: Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic connections?
    From: rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
    Anyone have any downside comments on mixing electrical and pneumatic connections on the same connector? Plan is to mix 8 electrical and 3 pneumatic on port wing connector, and 6 electrical and 1 pneumatic on starboard wing connector. The Anderson power pole connectors are reasonably water resistant if you seal the wire side with thin non corrosive silicone. Want to teather the wing side connector with 2 very thin bungee cords to root rib flange. Can easily extend bungee to connect with a 6" wing to fuse gap. See: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album162&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Thanking all in advance Ron Parigoris


    Message 7


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    Time: 11:50:11 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ?
    From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser@eds.com>
    I'm doing that with my Subaru engine. I do have dual ignition switches, but when both are on for takeoffs and landings, it is exactly what you describe. My architecture is essentially Z-19. Dennis Glaeser ----------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike West Hello Wondering if anyone has tried using dual Schottky diodes to power fuel injectors and ignition coils from two batteries ? I'm looking for a 2 battery system with fuel injectors and ignition coils fed directly from both batteries. If one battery fails the other battery automatically powers injectors & coils (and is isolated from bad battery by Schottky). Any thoughts ? Thanks -Mike


    Message 8


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    Time: 12:17:29 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Grounds & noise
    . . . Even very knowledgeable builders can fall into this problem. Mike Wills made a technically perfect system with a Single Point ground scheme which is theoretically the right thing to do but the single point ground had a very high noise impedance due to the long distance between it and the main noise damper (the battery). Here is a VERY abbreviated guideline. If you do a single point ground system, make it at (or very near) the negative terminal of the battery and ground the airframe close to it. Have independent power feeds from the battery positive terminal for the noise producing things and the noise sensitive things. Do these two things and noise problems will be rare. I wish it were that simple. The battery's ability to shunt bus voltage perturbations to ground is very limited. I recall seeing a shunt impedance versus frequency plots of various batteries over the years and recall noting meager noise mitigation effects. If I can find some of those plots, I'll post them. I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of antagonist/victim situations encountered by the OBAM aircraft community can be solved by an investigation of the DO-160/Mil-STD-704 characteristics of the major players. 704 says . . . (1) The bus is loaded with certain kinds of crap. (2) Learn to control it at practical levels consistent with state of the art . . . (3) and live with the rest of it. 160 says . . . (1) the electrical environment (conducted and radiated) is loaded with certain kinds of crap. (2) Control thy emissions to practical limits established by our state of the art . . . (2) Expect a certain amount of smelly stuff to be left over . . . learn to live with it. While there may be many an anecdotal report of success for the re-arrangement of wires, ground locations, filters, shields, etc. etc. they are seldom if ever joined by a qualitative and quantified description of the noise, propagation mode and the simple-ideas that led to an artful recipe for success. Most often, there's a sort of "swaptronics" approach to stirring the stew of ideas and parts until the problem goes away or at least becomes tolerable. I'm not suggesting that folks should not experiment to what ever amount of $time$ they're willing to spend. I will suggest that apparent successes that fall out of random experiments are at risk for not becoming recipes for success. I.e. repeatable experiments. I will also suggest that if your system is assembled per the recommendations of any of the Z-figures that the probability of having a "704 issue" is small. This leaves newly discovered victims with their "160 shorts" down around their ankles. I'll see if I can find that data on batteries-as-filters. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:23:55 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic
    connections? At 11:44 AM 4/28/2009, you wrote: Anyone have any downside comments on mixing electrical and pneumatic connections on the same connector? Plan is to mix 8 electrical and 3 pneumatic on port wing connector, and 6 electrical and 1 pneumatic on starboard wing connector. The Anderson power pole connectors are reasonably water resistant if you seal the wire side with thin non corrosive silicone. Want to tether the wing side connector with 2 very thin bungee cords to root rib flange. Can easily extend bungee to connect with a 6" wing to fuse gap. See: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album162&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Thanking all in advance How many times over the lifetime of the airplane do you expect to open these connections? You're about to conduct the grand experiment. You have a real life test going on connector technologies, assy techniques and modifications to off-the-shelf products to satisfy design goals. I'm not sure that the germane question speaks to "mixing electrical and pneumatic" connections in the same connector. You're plowing new ground here. The experience-base from which learned advice can be gleaned is small to non-existent. You're on track to becoming the expert on these process and techniques. Let us know how it works out. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 10


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    Time: 05:26:55 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic
    connections?
    From: rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
    Hi Bob "> How many times over the lifetime of the airplane do you > expect to open these connections?" ****Many! I have both 27 foot span short wings and 48 foot span long wings. Early on will probably trailer to go flying since the hangar I am building in is at an inappropriate field for first 40 hours. After that, wings will be pulled at least every year, probably more. 4 pins and my two wing connectors and wings come right off. The wings are dry and haveneat quick connect aileron and flap attachments that require no loose hardware. > You're about to conduct the grand experiment. You have > a real life test going on connector technologies, assy > techniques and modifications to off-the-shelf products > to satisfy design goals. I'm not sure that the germane > question speaks to "mixing electrical and pneumatic" > connections in the same connector. You're plowing new > ground here. The experience-base from which learned > advice can be gleaned is small to non-existent. You're > on track to becoming the expert on these process and > techniques. Let us know how it works out. ****I will post how things work out. I now have close to 10 years experiance using Anderson power pole and Sermos modular connectors flying electric models. Wet grass and the ocassional salt water landing has never failed a connector! The only failure I had was when breaking new ground and pulling continuous 40 plus amps (I am sure plenty more on start up of 3 phase DC motor) on a 3/4 horsepower monster, and the connector began to show signs of heating. At the field that day I just bent contacts a little harder against one another, and it worked fine for the day. I however don't use them for more than half their rating now and have never had another problem. I parallel two connectors if it is a critical connection. I never had a connector come undone in RC flight, but close after having a mid air one day. For the Europa I think it prudent to have some posative locking though. The buckles I am implimenting work great! iIam using them to hold my removable nav/com antenna and cable holder in place. See: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album272&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Glider folk use the 5 connection pneumatic connector with great sucess. They remove wings all the time. Ron Parigoris > > > > Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:20:00 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re Mixing electrical and pneumatic connections?
    > >Glider folk use the 5 connection pneumatic connector with great >sucess. They remove wings all the time. Understand. Looks interesting. Hope you'll do a how-to article for the website if you're still happy with these in a year or so! Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------




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