---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/06/09: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:53 AM - Re: Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck (Robert L Nuckolls III) 2. 09:00 AM - Re: Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck (Ralph Finch) 3. 09:34 AM - Radio Noise Problems - Rotax 914 with Dual Bolt-on Alt. (darinh) 4. 05:52 PM - Re: G3i Ignition (sc_acro2) 5. 06:21 PM - Re: Radio Noise Problems - Rotax 914 with Dual Bolt-on Alt. (Cori Hayth) 6. 10:50 PM - Re: Radio Noise Problems - Rotax 914 with Dual Bolt-on Alt. (darinh) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:12 AM PST US From: "Robert L Nuckolls III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck > > > I'm making some LED navigation lights. Being part Irish and stubborn I > decided to try the Luxeon PowerPuck > (http://www.luxeonstar.com/powerpuck-700ma-dc-led-driver-with-leads-p-27.php > ) even though I also had Robert Nuckolls' filtered Buck Puck. Sure enough > the PowerPuck produces RF noise, measured by a hand-held Icom receiver. > Squelch has to be turned nearly all the way up to silence the receiver. Are you saying that the AEC version of a filtered BuckPuck still emitted detectable noise? If you're using a hand-held with a rubber-duck antenna as a sniffer, then understand that many devices . . . even DO-160 qualified devices may demonstrate detectable emissions at close range. Remember that DO-160 says "reduce deleterious effects to some level demonstrated to be adequate to the task." The acid test is can you detect the BuckPuck's emissions from any of your ship's systems. Using a hand-held as a sniffer is a useful diagnostic tool but it's non-quantified and may have no practical relationship to suitability of a completed installation. > > Now the PowerPuck data sheet > (http://www.leddynamics.com/LuxDrive/datasheets/2008B-PowerPuck.pdf) has a > specific fix for RF noise, a 220uf cap between the input leads (page 4). > I > got the appropriate cap from Radio Shack and simply stuck it between the > input leads without shortening the cap's wires or soldering it. No > difference in RF noise. The electrolytic capacitor has no practical benefits at our particular frequnecy of interest (VHF nav and comm). The components described in the AEC9051 installation instructions are chosen for their efficacy at VHF. > > At this point I can think of these options: > 1. Replace the Luxeon PowerPuck with the filtered Buck Puck. May not be necessary . . . does the un-filtered device cause you problems in the cockpit? > 2. Replace the Luxeon PowerPuck with a resistor of appropriate wattage and > resistance. The BuckPuck is more than a "resistor". It's a constant cujrrent power supply that maintaines lamp performance over a wide range of power input conditions. > 3. Do nothing, maybe the RF noise isn't that bad. Yes . . . see (1) above. > 4. Or, being part Irish and stubborn, try to filter the RF noise of the > Luxeon PowerPuck. If noise IS an flight-ops problem, then it's not hard to whip it but will take some time (education is almost never inexpensivfe). > > I'd like to try 4. a little more. What more can I do to filter the noise. > Would the caps and coils used to filter the Buck Puck work for the Luxeon? > Maybe use telephone wire (unshielded twisted pair)? Wire treatments are NOT tools for the mitigation of radiated or conducted noise. Shielding, twisting, routing, etc are generally ineffectual things you do AFTER the horse is out of the barn! FILTERS are the firewall for noise ingress/egress to any proudct. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:00 AM PST US From: "Ralph Finch" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck I have bought, but not tested, the Buck Puck, either as-is or filtered. What I was "testing" with the hand-held was the Luxeon PowerPuck, unfiltered. Certainly far from scientific, but the only method I have. The two other devices I was concerned about--power supplies for an HID landing light and a strobe--produced detectable, but far less, noise on the handheld. All of this is just with a single wing. No fuselage, it's miles away stored in a hangar. Bob and others, thanks for your very interesting replies. At this time I'm going to "test" Bob's filtered Buck Puck with my handheld. Assuming that it produces little static, I can then use that or just a resistor in series. I may go the latter, reserving the more expensive filtered Buck Puck for the cockpit driving white and red LEDs where I will take advantage of the Buck Puck's 5v reference signal to make a variable strength light source. Ralph Finch -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L Nuckolls III Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 7:17 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck > > > I'm making some LED navigation lights. Being part Irish and stubborn I > decided to try the Luxeon PowerPuck > (http://www.luxeonstar.com/powerpuck-700ma-dc-led-driver-with-leads-p-27.php > ) even though I also had Robert Nuckolls' filtered Buck Puck. Sure enough > the PowerPuck produces RF noise, measured by a hand-held Icom receiver. > Squelch has to be turned nearly all the way up to silence the receiver. Are you saying that the AEC version of a filtered BuckPuck still emitted detectable noise? If you're using a hand-held with a rubber-duck antenna as a sniffer, then understand that many devices . . . even DO-160 qualified devices may demonstrate detectable emissions at close range. Remember that DO-160 says "reduce deleterious effects to some level demonstrated to be adequate to the task." The acid test is can you detect the BuckPuck's emissions from any of your ship's systems. Using a hand-held as a sniffer is a useful diagnostic tool but it's non-quantified and may have no practical relationship to suitability of a completed installation. > > Now the PowerPuck data sheet > (http://www.leddynamics.com/LuxDrive/datasheets/2008B-PowerPuck.pdf) has a > specific fix for RF noise, a 220uf cap between the input leads (page 4). > I > got the appropriate cap from Radio Shack and simply stuck it between the > input leads without shortening the cap's wires or soldering it. No > difference in RF noise. The electrolytic capacitor has no practical benefits at our particular frequnecy of interest (VHF nav and comm). The components described in the AEC9051 installation instructions are chosen for their efficacy at VHF. > > At this point I can think of these options: > 1. Replace the Luxeon PowerPuck with the filtered Buck Puck. May not be necessary . . . does the un-filtered device cause you problems in the cockpit? > 2. Replace the Luxeon PowerPuck with a resistor of appropriate wattage and > resistance. The BuckPuck is more than a "resistor". It's a constant cujrrent power supply that maintaines lamp performance over a wide range of power input conditions. > 3. Do nothing, maybe the RF noise isn't that bad. Yes . . . see (1) above. > 4. Or, being part Irish and stubborn, try to filter the RF noise of the > Luxeon PowerPuck. If noise IS an flight-ops problem, then it's not hard to whip it but will take some time (education is almost never inexpensivfe). > > I'd like to try 4. a little more. What more can I do to filter the noise. > Would the caps and coils used to filter the Buck Puck work for the Luxeon? > Maybe use telephone wire (unshielded twisted pair)? Wire treatments are NOT tools for the mitigation of radiated or conducted noise. Shielding, twisting, routing, etc are generally ineffectual things you do AFTER the horse is out of the barn! FILTERS are the firewall for noise ingress/egress to any proudct. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:42 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Noise Problems - Rotax 914 with Dual Bolt-on Alt. From: "darinh" I am having a problem I hope someone can help me with. I am not an electronics guy by any means but I did wire my panel and everything has worked well up to this point. Here is a description of the system and the problem: System: The engine is Rotax 914 UL and has 40 hours on it since new along with all components. I have a 40 amp alternator (Nippondenso modified by Flightcrafters I will refer to as the ND Alt.) mounted to the back of the gearbox where you would typically mount a vacuum pump. The gear ratio is .43:1 so the alternator does not really come alive until about 3200 engine rpm or so and then will not produce quite its rated capacity due to the gearing. I have set the engine up as a dual alternator system for redundancy so the backup is the Rotax (onboard) generator. Both the ND alternator and the Rotax generator are wired to a relay and a 3 position switch for selection of Main Alt (ND Alt.) - Battery - and Aux. Alt. (Rotax Generator). I have the large capacitor installed on the Rotax generator lead and was under the impression that the ND alternator does not need the capacitor as it is rectified and regulated internally. Again, everything has worked great up until now. Problem: Now the problem. At about 38 hours total time my "idiot light" lit up while cruising at 5000 rpm and 31" MAP. The EIS indicated that my oil pressure was too low - 18 psi (55 - 65 psi is normal). Litterally in the course of a couple seconds, the indication went from 18 psi to 75 psi and continued to fluctuate rapidly between the mid teens to mid 90's. I new at this point that is was a faulty indication and not actual loss of oil pressure. Upon landing my suspicions were confirmed as all oil lines were tight and I had lost no oil. A quick check of the system indicated that oil was still circulating. The OP sender was suspect and was replaced and moved from the engine to the firewall to minimize vibration and heat fatigue. The next flight showed OP as normal. All good right? Wrong. The next flight the oil temp sensor started fluctuating rapidly also...210 degrees to over 300 then back to 210 within a second or two. I really didn't think that the temp sensor was going bad but really didn't have any other idea of what it could be. As I was sitting there idling, I switched from the ND alt. to the battery position and the temps immediately stabilized. Next I switched to the Rotax onboard generator and everything stayed normal....then went back to the ND Alt. and the problems came back. With this, I pinned the problem on something to do with the ND alternator. On the ground I did some run up tests and found that when the ND alternator is providing power my oil temps are either abnormally high or abnormally low depending on rpm setting (high rpm = high temp. low rpm = lower temp). Again, with the Rotax onboard generator providing power, all is normal. Then, during one of my runups, my indicated system voltage plummeted while running on the ND alt. I switched back to the Rotax generator and voltage came right back to 13.8 so I knew I had some type of alternator failure. I removed the ND alt. and found that one of the copper output leads from the coil was completely broken. At this point I thought I had found my problem as obviously a broken lead would cause weird voltage issues and possibly mess with my engine sensors. The alternator was repaired by a reputable shop but because it has a spline gear he could not turn it up to check the rectifier/regulator. I installed it and am still having the problems with oil temps fluctuating wildly and to add to it, I have a ton of noise in my radio when at cruise power settings. During a test flight today, the tower told me my transmissions were broken and unreadable with a high pitched wine. Isn't this classic alternator interference? By the way, I have traced all grounds on the senors (most ground through the engine) and this has checked out. So I don't think it is a grounding issue. Everything worked fine before this and I haven't changed anything with the electronics with the exception what is mentioned here with the sensors. Sorry this is so long winded but I wanted everyone to have a complete picture of the issues. Now the questions: Could or will broken output leads cause the voltage regulator on the ND alternator to fail? If so, how can I check if it is toast? >From my description above does anyone have any advice or comments that might help? I am getting pretty frustrated so any help would be greatly appreciated! -------- Darin Hawkes Series 7 914 Turbo Kaysville, Utah Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242934#242934 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:21 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: G3i Ignition From: "sc_acro2" Hello Guys, If youre at the 2009 AirVenture this year, I personally invite you to stop by our booth #1148 and take a look at our products and answer any of your question/doubts. There will be hands on running interactive G3i/magneto display. Showing and comparing the different start up and run modes along with redundancy. As far easy start-up, fuel economy and smoothness, give Larry Vetterman a call @ Vettermans Exhaust Inc. Larry happily runs one of our systems. Sincerely, Thomas S. www.g3ignition.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242971#242971 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:28 PM PST US From: Cori Hayth Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Radio Noise Problems - Rotax 914 with Dual Bolt-on Alt. Hi Darin, I have the same setup on my 914 Europa Do you have a good ground strap (fat wire) from the engine block to the battery? Kevin On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 8:32 AM , darinh wrote: > > > I am having a problem I hope someone can help me with. I am not an > electronics guy by any means but I did wire my panel and everything > has worked well up to this point. Here is a description of the system > and the problem: > System: > The engine is Rotax 914 UL and has 40 hours on it since new along with > all components. I have a 40 amp alternator (Nippondenso modified by > Flightcrafters I will refer to as the ND Alt.) mounted to the back of > the gearbox where you would typically mount a vacuum pump. The gear > ratio is .43:1 so the alternator does not really come alive until > about 3200 engine rpm or so and then will not produce quite its rated > capacity due to the gearing. I have set the engine up as a dual > alternator system for redundancy so the backup is the Rotax (onboard) > generator. Both the ND alternator and the Rotax generator are wired > to a relay and a 3 position switch for selection of Main Alt (ND Alt.) > - Battery - and Aux. Alt. (Rotax Generator). I have the large > capacitor installed on the Rotax generator lead and was under the > impression that the ND alternator does not need the capacitor as it is > rectified and regulated internally. Again, everything has worked > great up until now. > > Problem: > Now the problem. At about 38 hours total time my "idiot light" lit up > while cruising at 5000 rpm and 31" MAP. The EIS indicated that my oil > pressure was too low - 18 psi (55 - 65 psi is normal). Litterally in > the course of a couple seconds, the indication went from 18 psi to 75 > psi and continued to fluctuate rapidly between the mid teens to mid > 90's. I new at this point that is was a faulty indication and not > actual loss of oil pressure. Upon landing my suspicions were > confirmed as all oil lines were tight and I had lost no oil. A quick > check of the system indicated that oil was still circulating. The OP > sender was suspect and was replaced and moved from the engine to the > firewall to minimize vibration and heat fatigue. The next flight > showed OP as normal. All good right? Wrong. The next flight the oil > temp sensor started fluctuating rapidly also...210 degrees to over 300 > then back to 210 within a second or two. I really didn't think that > the temp sensor was going! > bad but really didn't have any other idea of what it could be. As I > was sitting there idling, I switched from the ND alt. to the battery > position and the temps immediately stabilized. Next I switched to the > Rotax onboard generator and everything stayed normal....then went back > to the ND Alt. and the problems came back. With this, I pinned the > problem on something to do with the ND alternator. > > On the ground I did some run up tests and found that when the ND > alternator is providing power my oil temps are either abnormally high > or abnormally low depending on rpm setting (high rpm = high temp. low > rpm = lower temp). Again, with the Rotax onboard generator providing > power, all is normal. Then, during one of my runups, my indicated > system voltage plummeted while running on the ND alt. I switched back > to the Rotax generator and voltage came right back to 13.8 so I knew I > had some type of alternator failure. I removed the ND alt. and found > that one of the copper output leads from the coil was completely > broken. At this point I thought I had found my problem as obviously a > broken lead would cause weird voltage issues and possibly mess with my > engine sensors. The alternator was repaired by a reputable shop but > because it has a spline gear he could not turn it up to check the > rectifier/regulator. > I installed it and am still having the problems with oil temps > fluctuating wildly and to add to it, I have a ton of noise in my radio > when at cruise power settings. During a test flight today, the tower > told me my transmissions were broken and unreadable with a high > pitched wine. Isn't this classic alternator interference? By the > way, I have traced all grounds on the senors (most ground through the > engine) and this has checked out. So I don't think it is a grounding > issue. Everything worked fine before this and I haven't changed > anything with the electronics with the exception what is mentioned > here with the sensors. > > Sorry this is so long winded but I wanted everyone to have a complete > picture of the issues. > Now the questions: > Could or will broken output leads cause the voltage regulator on the > ND alternator to fail? If so, how can I check if it is toast? >> From my description above does anyone have any advice or comments >> that might help? > > I am getting pretty frustrated so any help would be greatly > appreciated! > > -------- > Darin Hawkes > Series 7 914 Turbo > Kaysville, Utah > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242934#242934 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:50:50 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Radio Noise Problems - Rotax 914 with Dual Bolt-on Alt. From: "darinh" Kevin, Yes I do. Keep in mind this all worked great until the leads on the alternator failed on me. The only thing I can think that has happened is when the leads failed it somehow damaged the built-in regulator. Problem is, I know next to nothing about alternators and regulators so I don't know how to check if it is good or not. -------- Darin Hawkes Series 7 914 Turbo Kaysville, Utah Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242993#242993 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.