Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:20 AM - Re: Military style external power receptacle question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 06:19 AM - Re: Solar & Wind Power (Angier M. Ames)
3. 11:23 AM - Re: Re: Solar & Wind Power (Charlie England)
4. 11:43 AM - Re: Military style external power receptacle question (johngoodman)
5. 12:58 PM - Battery Capacity Tester ()
6. 01:33 PM - Re: LR3 regulator Amperage indications (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 01:39 PM - Re: Battery Capacity Tester (Bob White)
8. 01:58 PM - Re: LR3 regulator Amperage indications (Bill Schertz)
9. 02:34 PM - Re: Alternator Failure (Franz Fux)
10. 03:50 PM - Re: Solar & Wind Power (Angier M. Ames)
11. 04:11 PM - Re: LR3 regulator Amperage indications (Ian)
12. 08:17 PM - Ground Power Receptacle - 3 pin (Paul Millner [OAK])
13. 10:40 PM - Re: Rotax 912ULS Voltage (Les Goldner)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Military style external power receptacle question |
At 04:15 PM 5/24/2009, you wrote:
><johngoodman@earthlink.net>
>
>Looking at Bob's wiring diagram in Appendix Z, 31A, for a military
>style external power receptacle, what is the function of the smaller
>third pin? Just guessing by the schematic it's hot power, just like
>the middle pin.
>Inquiring minds want to know........
It's a pretty subtle thing . . . not obvious without
some attention to the little details.
The third pin is much shorter than the other two
fat pins. This means that as you push the socket
onto the pins, the two fat ones are electrically
engaged before the third pin mates and current
flows.
Similarly, assume you're pulling the plug out of a
ground power connector that is loaded. The
third pin breaks first and de-energizes the system
before the fat pins break.
In some applications, this connector can be loaded
to hundreds of amp at 28V. That kind of power makes
for long hot sparks during a slow make/break operation.
The pins of the connector are not designed to work
like a contactor and are subject to damage if not
made or broken "cold".
Using the third pin to control the ground power
contactor prevents damage to the connector from
a hot make or break of the main power pins.
Finally, the smaller size of the third pin provides
"polarization" for the mated connector halves. If
on tried to plug it in backwards the differences in
sizes prevents any form of engagement from taking
place.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Solar & Wind Power |
This forum may not be the appropriate place to discuss alternative
energy sources as they might apply to an aircraft hangar to be built
in a location far removed from the energy grid. I'm hoping that one of
you may have experience in this area and reply on this forum or
contact me directly.
Thanks,
Angier Ames
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Solar & Wind Power |
Angier M. Ames wrote:
> <N4ZQ@comcast.net>
>
> This forum may not be the appropriate place to discuss alternative
> energy sources as they might apply to an aircraft hangar to be built
> in a location far removed from the energy grid. I'm hoping that one of
> you may have experience in this area and reply on this forum or
> contact me directly.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Angier Ames
A friend has put 5 kw of 'thin film' solar panels on the roof of his
hangar in S Florida. He is 'on grid' and the grid interface feeds any
excess power into the grid & the power company has to buy the power (at
wholesale rates, of course).
If you're totally off-grid, you'd almost certainly need storage
(batteries) & an inverter, which raises cost considerably. Actual power
demands obviously matter, too. Do you need to run serious power tools
(big air compressor, welder, etc), or just light the hangar & run small
power tools?
If you have access to newsgroups, try alt.energy.homepower or
alt.solar.thermal.
Charlie
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Military style external power receptacle question |
Bob,
Thanks!
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit started.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=245293#245293
Message 5
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| Subject: | Battery Capacity Tester |
5/25/2009
Hello Fellow Listers, There has been some interest in the past on how to
test the capacity of one's aircraft battery. Here is a new piece of
equipment available from Concorde for this purpose.
http://www.concordebattery.com/accessories.php?id
OC
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: LR3 regulator Amperage indications |
At 06:12 AM 5/18/2009, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>I am now convinced that the variations were real. I inserted an
>ammeter into the field line, while the engine was stopped. Got a
>reading of 3.5 amps. Then took the plane out, fired it up with the
>ammeter in place, and when the alternator switch was turned on, the
>current went to 3.5 amps for a very short time, then dropped to
>zero. At that point, it stayed at zero, and the battery would not charge.
>
>Put plane back in hanger, and did some static measurements.
>
>Voltage from LR-3 to field circuit breaker ~4.5 volts
This voltage comes FROM your battery via the contactor,
main bus, alternator field breaker and switch. When
you made these measurements, was the battery charged
at all? Or was it down to 4.5 volts?
>Voltage at connector to alternator (black plug) ~4.5V
>Resistance to ground through the leads that field current plugs into
>varies (jumps around) and then often goes to open circuit.
>
>Could the slip rings be contaminated or not in contact?
This is a possibility. You need to deduce the
reason for such low voltage readings. Put
a charger/maintainer on your battery and make
sure it's 100% before you continue the investigation.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Capacity Tester |
For $1300 I would want to have a requirement to test more than one or
two batteries every year!
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/bc5000.php
I think maybe Bob's tester would prove more than adequate for the
average OBAM user.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battest.pdf
Just my opinion,
Bob W.
On Mon, 25 May 2009 15:45:25 -0400
<bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
>
> 5/25/2009
>
> Hello Fellow Listers, There has been some interest in the past on how to
> test the capacity of one's aircraft battery. Here is a new piece of
> equipment available from Concorde for this purpose.
>
> http://www.concordebattery.com/accessories.php?id
>
> OC
>
>
>
>
>
--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
3.8 Hours Total Time and holding
Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: LR3 regulator Amperage indications |
Bob, an update -- The Battery, alternator, and LR3C are fine, the symptoms
below are attributed to operator induced problems.
1. Apparently when hooking up for the test, I caused a short that blew the
fuse to the alternator field. That is the reason for the battery not
charging.
2. I talked to B&C, and downloaded there diagnostic check sheet. This led to
the discovery of the blown fuse.
3. I have installed an old fashioned 50mv/60A shunt in the B lead, and
hooked it up to a DVM. Alternator working fine, hash on recorded output must
be as you originally surmised, the result of noise.
I have not yet tried to filter the noise, now that I know the output is
stable, I can ignore the chart until I have time to fix it.
Thanks for your help/input.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS
Phase I testing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LR3 regulator Amperage indications
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 06:12 AM 5/18/2009, you wrote:
>><wschertz@comcast.net>
>>
>>Bob,
>>I am now convinced that the variations were real. I inserted an ammeter
>>into the field line, while the engine was stopped. Got a reading of 3.5
>>amps. Then took the plane out, fired it up with the ammeter in place, and
>>when the alternator switch was turned on, the current went to 3.5 amps for
>>a very short time, then dropped to zero. At that point, it stayed at
>>zero, and the battery would not charge.
>>
>>Put plane back in hanger, and did some static measurements.
>>
>>Voltage from LR-3 to field circuit breaker ~4.5 volts
>
> This voltage comes FROM your battery via the contactor,
> main bus, alternator field breaker and switch. When
> you made these measurements, was the battery charged
> at all? Or was it down to 4.5 volts?
>
>>Voltage at connector to alternator (black plug) ~4.5V
>
>
>>Resistance to ground through the leads that field current plugs into
>>varies (jumps around) and then often goes to open circuit.
>>
>>Could the slip rings be contaminated or not in contact?
>
> This is a possibility. You need to deduce the
> reason for such low voltage readings. Put
> a charger/maintainer on your battery and make
> sure it's 100% before you continue the investigation.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Failure |
Hi Bob,
Just letting you know that after some trouble shooting I found the culprit
of my problems, a loose connection that I overlooked many times, all is
working as it should again
Thanks
Franz
On 20/05/09 3:55 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 05:16 PM 5/20/2009, you wrote:
>> Hi Bob,
>> Could you please help me with a low voltage problem that I am having
>> in my RV7. Voltage indicators on the Dynon and engine monitor both
>> show fluctuations between 12.5V and 11.5V while in flight.
>
> These are the voltages you can expect from a battery
> that is NOT benefiting from support by the alternator.
>
>> This is something that just started during the last few flights, I
>> have 300h on the airplane with this being the first problem. I have
>> had the ND 60A internally regulated alternator form Vans in the
>> shop and it checked out fine.
>
> If the alternator is okay, then it's deprived of
> an ON/OFF command that controls it . . . or is
> otherwise disconnected from the system.
>
> With the engine not running but with battery and
> alternator switches ON, you should measure some
> voltage close to the battery output at all wires
> attached to the alternator. If no/low voltage at
> the b-lead terminal, perhaps your b-lead fuse or
> current limiter is open. If no/low voltage to
> the control terminal, then there is a failure in
> the wiring between that terminal and the bus.
>
>
>> I also have put in a new battery with no improvements. Airplane
>> wired as per Z11 with an added electronic ignition on the top side
>
>
> I wouldn't expect a battery to fix this. The alternator
> is definitely not being allowed to do its job
> for some reason.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Solar & Wind Power |
This forum may not be the appropriate place to discuss alternative
energy sources as they might apply to an aircraft hangar to be built
in a location far removed from the energy grid. I'm hoping that one of
you may have experience in this area and reply on this forum or
contact me directly.
Thanks,
Angier Ames
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: LR3 regulator Amperage indications |
Not sure if this is relevant to your situation, but I just had a similar
experience with the EXPBUS output to the alternator. The IRF4905 MOSFET
that was controlling the 12V to the alternator was measuring 12V with no
load, but when connected to the alternator dropped to a low voltage.
Replacing that device on the EXPBUS resolved my problem, as of
today. ;-)
The ammeter output was totally confusing during this time, in that it
was indicating 2A, but may have actually been indicating no charging
current at all. The battery was certainly discharging with minimal
loads.
If the LR3 "solid state" components include a similar device to the
IRF4905 it seems it's not so simple as just measuring the voltage at the
output, since it seems to drop as soon as a load is applied if faulty.
Good luck,
Ian Brown
Bromont
Quebec
Finally getting back to flying tomorrow!
On Mon, 2009-05-25 at 15:26 -0500, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> At 06:12 AM 5/18/2009, you wrote:
> >
> >Bob,
> >I am now convinced that the variations were real. I inserted an
> >ammeter into the field line, while the engine was stopped. Got a
> >reading of 3.5 amps. Then took the plane out, fired it up with the
> >ammeter in place, and when the alternator switch was turned on, the
> >current went to 3.5 amps for a very short time, then dropped to
> >zero. At that point, it stayed at zero, and the battery would not charge.
> >
> >Put plane back in hanger, and did some static measurements.
> >
> >Voltage from LR-3 to field circuit breaker ~4.5 volts
>
> This voltage comes FROM your battery via the contactor,
> main bus, alternator field breaker and switch. When
> you made these measurements, was the battery charged
> at all? Or was it down to 4.5 volts?
>
> >Voltage at connector to alternator (black plug) ~4.5V
>
>
> >Resistance to ground through the leads that field current plugs into
> >varies (jumps around) and then often goes to open circuit.
> >
> >Could the slip rings be contaminated or not in contact?
>
> This is a possibility. You need to deduce the
> reason for such low voltage readings. Put
> a charger/maintainer on your battery and make
> sure it's 100% before you continue the investigation.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Ground Power Receptacle - 3 pin |
>> I assume that the military and airlines use the pin for the same thing.
In the 70's, Cessna used that small third pin, hotted up by the external
power source, to both close the ground power contactor, connecting the
external power source to the bus, *and* to energize an avionics relay,
which disconnected the avionics bus from the main bus. The relay coil
was diode or'd with the starter contactor coil circuit... so turning the
key to start *also* disconnected the avionics bus.
Where it gets exciting is when the diode from the starter contactor
fails as a short.. then, connecting ground power causes the prop to
start spinning, Youza!
Paul
Message 13
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| Subject: | Rotax 912ULS Voltage |
Thank you for the information Bob.
I am trying to trouble shoot my low voltage problem to determine its cause
(i.e.; the regulator, wiring, or the internal engine alternator) so I can
take corrective action.
There is nothing in the Rotax 912 manuals to assist in doing this. I checked
the internal engine coil resistance reading and found it to be .7-ohms. The
DC voltage at the regulator is the same previously reported (still under
13-volts). Finally I measured AC voltage coming from the coils. The voltage
varied as follows:
Idle (1900-RPM) was 12.8 volts
2500-RPM was 16.0 v
3000-RPM was 19.0 v
4000-RPM was 24.5 v
cruse(5000-RPM)was not measured.
Bob, Am I correct to think that the AC voltage looks adequate and the
problem is likely a faulty Rotax voltage regulator?
Thanks again for your help.
Regards,
Les
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rotax 912ULS Voltage
At 01:08 PM 5/20/2009, you wrote:
<lgold@quantum-associates.com>
I am a sport pilot and don't fly at night, but took my Zenith 701 /Rotax
912ULS up a few evenings ago just to see how hard it would be to land in the
dark. No problem landing, but with all the extra night time stuff on
(strobes, 55watt landing light, & cabin lights) plus my normal stuff
(intercom, 2GPS's, Dynon 180, ICOM radio, transponder, and intercom) the
voltage went down to 11.9 at 3500-rpm and 12.3V at my 4900-rpm cruse. The
blinding low voltage light (from aeroelectric's Z16 diagram, which I used
for my aircraft) came on for the first time and gave me a scare.
My question; is this low voltage situation normal or do I have voltage
regulation issues?
If the low votlage light is on (bus less than 13.0 volts)
then the alternator is not producing sufficient energy to
carry all of the ship's loads AND maintain a battery.
Without the extra load during daylight flight my voltage runs about
12.9-13.0 V and my battery holds a 12.8V charge.
This is TOO LOW. No load and engine running should produce
a bus voltage of 14.0 MINIMUM, 14.2 to 14.4 is better. With
a 13.0V set-point, your alternator is not replenishing the
energy used to get the engine started. It's also maintaining
your battery in a very low state of charge, probably less
than 50% of capacity.
I don't have an extra
alternator and just use the internal Rotax coils for power. One guy already
told me that what I am getting is the norm with the extra stuff on, and that
the Rotax voltage regulator heats up a lot and should not be expected to
last very long. Are these things true?
Not quite. That voltage level is too low. You need to
add up the real current draw for all accessories that
might be on at the same time. These cannot exceed
the rating of the alternator (assuming the battery
is charged) for the operating RPM . . .
Emacs!
. . . and should not be more than 75% of that rating if
you want the alternator to replenish energy removed
before cruising flight RPMs are achieved.
The stock rectifier/regulator is marginal for the
way we use them. I wish they were a bit more robust.
It would add very little to the cost of the product.
John Deere has some single phase rectifier/regulators
rated in the 30A class. It would be interesting to
see how well these might substitute for the
stock regulator.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
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