Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:05 AM - Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving noise (EdgePerformance)
2. 04:45 AM - Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long) (Ken)
3. 06:18 AM - Re: Re: Stereo to Mono (Harley)
4. 06:25 AM - Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)Essential Incident - Almost (Long) (Joe)
5. 06:41 AM - Re: Essential Incident (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 06:52 AM - Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)Essential Incident - Almost (Long) (Ed Anderson)
7. 07:30 AM - E-bus design goals (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 07:35 AM - Re: Fw: Jabiru 3300 starter (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
9. 09:38 AM - Re: E-bus design goals (Ben Westfall)
10. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving n (Matt Prather)
11. 11:08 AM - Re: E-bus design goals (Mike Fontenot)
12. 02:19 PM - Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving n (EdgePerformance)
13. 07:47 PM - Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long) (Lenny Iszak)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving |
noise
Hi,
Will that cause receiving noise only, and only with the engine off ?
ianxbrown wrote:
> Are the plastic washers the type with a raised bit that goes through the
> hole? They generally come with the jack connectors. Otherwise the
> ground side of the plug can ground through the side of the hole.
>
> Ian Brown
> Bromont
> Quebec
>
> On Thu, 2009-06-04 at 12:55 -0700, EdgePerformance wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I will give it a try tomorrow. But I cant figure what I have done wrong. Radio
is connected right to the battery, all wires out of the molex connector are
shielded, jacks to headsets are isolated with plastic washers through the front
panel, have a grounded 50x45cm ground plate inside the body with the antenna
screwed right in the center of the plate with the coaxial cable shield grounded
straight to the ground plate.
> >
> > Heres a really simple sketch of how I have wired my antenna.
> >
> > --------
> > Kitfox IV w Jabiru 2200 TurboAerocarb
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 46820#246820
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Attachments:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/antenna_ground_plate_163.jpg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246925#246925
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
A related discussion FWIW:
I still think that the electrically dependent engine and especially with
internal regulated alternators, may be better served by connecting the
alternator to the battery side of a battery contactor. Even more so if
you have a separate OV contactor or if you run small batteries. I've
done that on both alternators of my Z-14 system. Separate guarded
switches control the OV contactors.
In a smoke situation I want to kill everything not required by the
engine but if the smoke stops I still want the option of keeping the
alternator. I don't want to risk load dumping my internally regulated
alternator if I don't have to. I run very small 8AH batteries but
interestingly one of them lost almost all of its capacity very quickly
last winter. The second one still cranked the engine fairly well so it
was not obvious. It did not seem to go open circuit as it would still
supply a 5 amp load for 2 or 3 minutes. De-sulphating pulses made no
improvement.
My voltmeters and OV sensing are off the battery busses since they run
the engine.
Ken
Ed Anderson wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> Perhaps a bit clear explanation of my circuit. When I move my essential bus
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Stereo to Mono |
>>Sony Walkman in my RV-6A that has something on the order of 400+
songs right now with plenty of storage room to spare for more songs,
videos, photos, etc.<<
You mean those tapes I use in my Walkman have been replaced by something
better? <VBG>
Actually I am very happy with the HP pocket computer that came with my
newest upgrade to Anywhere Map. It fits in my pocket when not in it's
vehicle mount, it has wireless internet (I did replace the Microsoft
browser with "Opera", however), MP3 player, Bluetooth, built in GPS
antenna, Tom-Tom for ground navigation, and, of course, AnywhereMap. Not
to mention the games that I loaded into it that I can play while waiting
in the doctor's waiting rooms! <G>
It does have an output socket for earphones and I have an adapter for
the 1/8" socket to a 1/4" plug to just plug in to the appropriate socket
in my intercom. But haven't gotten around to connecting it to my
intercom yet, since I don't even have an electrical system in my plane
yet! Hopefully before this year is out....
Harley
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Hand wrote:
> <If you don't have a MP3 player (iPod) get one. Walkman are last
> decades news. If you
> <don't have an iPod you can get 100's of hours of music on them with
> play time of 6 hours
> <per charge. They are also small and light weight.>
>
>
> Actually, I use a Sony Walkman in my RV-6A that has something on the
> order of 400+ songs right now with plenty of storage room to spare for
> more songs, videos, photos, etc. Weighs a few ounces, plugs into my
> intercom, didn't cost much, and works great. It's a Sony Walkman
> digital media player - smaller physical size than the i-pods my kids
> prefer and does all I want for the RV. Although once upon a time I
> did have one of the Walkman units you are talking about, Sony has
> rehashed the name with current technology.....not sure which era Don's
> Walkman is from.
>
> Chris
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com <mailto:gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> ;
> don@contractorsnorthwest.com <mailto:don@contractorsnorthwest.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, June 01, 2009 3:00 AM
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Re: Stereo to Mono
>
> I would not use a stereo to mono jack to go FROM stereo to MONO.
> It really is made
> for going from mono to drive a stereo headphone, split to drive
> both L & R channels.
> It is not designed to combine stereo to mono.
>
> Whats the big deal? Shorting L & R of an amp can cause damage,
> even an iPod. If the
> "Walkman" has a mono switch than its OK, but iPods do not have
> mono switches.
>
> If you don't have a MP3 player (iPod) get one. Walkman are last
> decades news. If you
> don't have an iPod you can get 100's of hours of music on them
> with play time of 6 hours
> per charge. They are also small and light weight.
>
> There are some threads on how to properly combine stereo and
> ground issues in this
> forum. Just use the search engine. The easy way is with capacitor
> and resistor, which
> you can wire behind the panel. You would use a stereo 1/8" phone
> jack and then
> go from stereo to mono with the isolation Cap and Resistor.
>
> Cheers George
>
>
> >From: <bakerocb@cox.net <mailto:bakerocb@cox.net>>
> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stereo to Mono
> >
> >5/30/2009
> >Hello Don, You wrote: "I want to install a plug in my panel to
> plug my
> >stereo Walkman into but my intercom (PM1000 II) is mono."
> >Here is one way to solve that problem --
>
> >http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102669
>
> >This adapter will put the output of a mono jack on your panel
> into both
> >sides of your stereo Walkman.
>
> >Also take a look at some of the other adapters available. You may
> want to
> >put a normal airplane earphone sized jack on your instrument
> panel so that
> >either your Walkman (with an adapter) or an airplane earphone set
> (without
> >adapter) may be plugged in.
> >
> >===========================
> >>
> >>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stereo to Mono
> >>From: "Don McIntosh" <don@contractorsnorthwest.com
> <mailto:don@contractorsnorthwest.com>>
> >>
> >>I want to install a plug in my panel to plug my stereo Walkman
> into but my
> >>intercom (PM1000 II) is mono. Can I just splice the Right and
> Left leads together
> >>to go into the intercom? Also the intercom pins are labeled "HI"
> and "LOW".
> >>Is this just the pin identification numbers?
> >>--------
> >>Don McIntosh
> >>Kitfox Series 7 under construction
> >>Jabiru 3300
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)Essential Incident |
- Almost (Long)
Ed,
It is hard to improve on Bob Nuckolls wiring diagrams. His
schematics have evolved and have been proven over time and have been
scrutinized by many eyes. His essential bus is fed via two paths: a
diode and a switch. If one path fails, there is a backup. Your
intention of putting the diode back in is a good idea. The voltage drop
across a diode is not a concern because the alternator is putting out
more than enough voltage. If the alternator fails and you turn on the
E-Bus alternate feed switch, the diode is no longer part of the circuit.
So in either case, alternator working or not, the voltage drop across
the diode is not a concern.
Putting another switch (E-Bus alt feed) between the battery and
alternator introduces another failure point. That extra switch is not
needed because there is already a master switch to shut off the battery
and alternator circuits. Not only does the master switch shut off
non-essential electrical loads, it also shuts off the main battery
contactor, another non-essential load.
I assume that your E-Bus alternate feed switch is a double pole
switch because it controls two things: the E-Bus and battery-to-main-bus
circuit. If that switch fails, both electrical paths to the E-Bus could
be lost.
If you post your electrical schematic on AeroElectric, others can
offer suggestions for improvement.
Joe
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Subject: | RE: Essential Incident |
At 08:22 PM 6/4/2009, you wrote:
><eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
>
>Hi Bill,
>
>Perhaps a bit clear explanation of my circuit. When I move my essential bus
>switch from ALT (alternator) to BAT1 (battery1), it removes the link between
>battery and alternator. However, the master relay still closed by the
>battery voltage, so this provides a path for the alternator to continue to
>feed the rest of the (none essential systems - such as landing lights,
>strobe light, transponder, etc).
Ed, could you send me a copy of your
architecture? It seems that it might
benefit from a failure mode effects
analysis.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 6
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Subject: | Essential Incident - Almost (Long)Essential Incident |
- Almost (Long)
I have to agree, Joe. What 10 years ago seemed like a reasonable idea and
design- proved 10 years later to be in need of some changes - without doubt.
While this incident was undoubtedly pilot induced - it pointed out some
limitations that I had not factored in. Fortunately, I get the chance to
make some changes.
Yes, in hindsight, I agree - the voltage drop across the diode is a minor
factor in the scheme of things. However, the Alternator/ battery switch
will stay in the circuit - because even diodes can fail. If the switch
fails then hopefully the diode will keep the battery replenished. Should
the diode fail then the switch provides a circuit for keeping battery alive.
I will also revise the circuit so the Master relay is not solely dependent
on battery voltage.
Back 10 years ago, it seemed to me that alternator failure was the highest
probability. After 10+ years of flying without either alternator or battery
failure - I am content with the basic design (after aforementioned changes
are made that is {:>))
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
<http://www.andersonee.com> http://www.andersonee.com
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
<http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm>
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)Essential
Incident - Almost (Long)
Ed,
It is hard to improve on Bob Nuckolls wiring diagrams. His schematics
have evolved and have been proven over time and have been scrutinized by
many eyes. His essential bus is fed via two paths: a diode and a switch.
If one path fails, there is a backup. Your intention of putting the diode
back in is a good idea. The voltage drop across a diode is not a concern
because the alternator is putting out more than enough voltage. If the
alternator fails and you turn on the E-Bus alternate feed switch, the diode
is no longer part of the circuit. So in either case, alternator working or
not, the voltage drop across the diode is not a concern.
Putting another switch (E-Bus alt feed) between the battery and
alternator introduces another failure point. That extra switch is not
needed because there is already a master switch to shut off the battery and
alternator circuits. Not only does the master switch shut off non-essential
electrical loads, it also shuts off the main battery contactor, another
non-essential load.
I assume that your E-Bus alternate feed switch is a double pole switch
because it controls two things: the E-Bus and battery-to-main-bus circuit.
If that switch fails, both electrical paths to the E-Bus could be lost.
If you post your electrical schematic on AeroElectric, others can offer
suggestions for improvement.
Joe
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
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Message 7
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Subject: | E-bus design goals |
At 08:30 PM 6/4/2009, you wrote:
>Hi Etienne,
>
>As best I can recall from over 10 years ago, I decided I did not
>want the voltage drop caused by a isolation diode . . .
>
Yeah, that bit of physics seems to bug some folks . . .
but more than necessary or useful. Keep in mind that
when the worst happens (alternator quits) the
battery delivers energy at 12.5 down to about 11.0
volts. All our electro-whizzies are designed to
either produce useful performance over this voltage range
else they are NOT suitable for installation in airplanes.
When the e-bus is being powered from the main bus
via the back-feed isolation diode, the main bus
runs at 14.2 to 14.6 volts. A 0.7 to 0.8 volt
drop in the diode depresses the e-bus to
a minimum of 13.4 volts - a value that is about
1.0 volt HIGHER than delivered by a battery alone.
The voltage drop may be reduced by utilization of
a Schottky rectifier . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schottky_diode
. . . if the builder is willing to
give up the cost and convenience of installation
for the silicon diode bridge rectifier described
in my writings:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/s401-25.jpg
Several products crafted for the OBAM aircraft
market speak to a design goal for lower voltage
drop . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9001/IM9001-700A.pdf
http://www.periheliondesign.com/powerschottkydiodes.htm
The latter product offers the lower voltage drop
characteristic of the Schottky junction diode
however, the application schematic shown
in the link above is not the correct implementation
of the e-bus philosophy described in the 'Connection.
See:
http://aeroelectric.com/R12A/AppZ_12A3.pdf
All this makes a mountain out of a mole hill.
When used as illustrated in the Z-figures, the
voltage drop offered by either silicon junction or
Schottky devices has no operational significance
for achieving the original design goals that gave
rise to the e-bus about 15 years ago.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 8
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Subject: | Fwd: Jabiru 3300 starter |
Basically starter contactors are used in addition to the solenoid on the st
arter purely to avoid having a permanently hot big fat wire from the batter
y to the engine..In the extrordinarilly low risk event that the wire should
break and start flailing around under the cowling the consequences are lik
ely to be catastrophic..read fire or at least a boiled battery.
Low likelyhood/high catastrophy events are hard to quantify in terms of how
much protection to add. In the "real" airplane world they went with the ad
ditional contactor..Automotive they didn't.
Personally I'm comfortable either way...My current RV has a starter contact
or mainly cus it was in box..:)
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fwd: Jabiru 3300 starter
Ken,
Thanks for the reply. Because I have a Corvair engine, in the past, I have
not looked at posts dealing specifically with Jabiru systems. I think my
confusion comes from the fact that the starter solenoid on my engine is tie
d to the started and there is no starter contactor. I think from looking a
t the latest Jabiru wiring diagram, one or the other is required, but not b
oth. I'm just not sure what is included in the Jabiru FWF package.
Thanks again - Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
hman@albedo.net>>
Yes but it has been discussed before and we all hoped someone else would an
swer... ;)
A conventional battery contactor draws almost 1 amp and can be on continuou
sly. A starter contactor is quicker acting, draws more like 4 amps, and is
intermittant duty. ie it will overheat and fail if energized continuously.
Your call on whether you need a starter contactor as well as a starter sole
noid. Is there any chance that both are required for your warranty? I did n
ot use a starter contactor on my subaru but I can kill a stuck on starter b
y killing a "battery" contactor on my bird. Solenoids on starters do occasi
onally but rarely stick on but the same is true for starter contactors. I j
udge the risk quite low for an automotive type starter solenoid and a glanc
e at the voltage after start up confirms disengagement.
Ken
________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 9
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Subject: | E-bus design goals |
Is it possible to have both the E-Bus switch and the Master ON at the same
time? Wouldn't this power the ebus stuff at full voltage?
-Ben Westfall
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 |
Reciving n
Hello EdgePerformance,
I'm just suggesting some basic trouble shooting methods. One of those
methods is to disable possible antagonists - things that might be creating
noise - while still being able to operate the victim. This can help to
identify which system is the source of the noise. In turn:
- Disable the ignition
- Disable the alternator
To verify that I understand clearly, you simultaneously turned off both
ignitions - causing the engine to stop running, but the prop windmilled
the engine for a short time? And the noise was still present, though the
frequency was winding down? I would expect that if the ignition were the
source of the problem, turning the ignition off would instantly stop the
generation of the noise, even as the engine continued to windmill.
Assuming this suggests to me that the source of the noise is in the
charging system.
Can you turn off the alternator while the engine runs?
Another way of attacking the problem is to identify how the noise is
getting into the victim.
- Running the radio from a battery can help identify if noise is getting
in through power/ground
- Disconnecting the antenna (from the back of the radio) can identify if
the noise is coming through the VHF/RF section of the radio
More questions:
- Do you have a separate audio panel or intercom? Can you disable it?
- Does the noise present itself while on the ground (with the engine
running)? This would make the debug process easier..
- Is it possible the noise is audio in nature, only (not electrical)?
Maybe a mic issue? Disconnect the mic plug from the audio system?
On some Permanent Magnet alternator systems, it is recommended that a
bypass capacitor be installed at the output of the regulator. A cap with
a value of 10kuF with at least a 40V rating would be adequate.
I apologize if it seems I'm repeating myself.. I just want to make sure
my non-existent Norwegian isn't causing a communication problem. :)
Regards,
Matt-
> <post@edgeperformance.no>
>
> Hi,
>
> i have the aerocarb so normally i use idle-cutoff but both magnetic
coils
> are new and they work fine. Ignition cutoff work great on both cold and
hot engine no matter what throttle setting.
>
> What do you mean by antenna mitigate ? My English aren't that great.
(Poor
> Norwegian).
>
> I tried to turn off both ignition switches in flight and the engine
didn't
> get to stop completely before the transmission was over, but I could
clearly hear the noise frequency becoming lower. But that could also be
both alternator and ignition I believe.
>
> I really hope I can figure this out soon so that I can go out and fly my
new build jabiru 2200 turbo kitfox IV.
>
> --------
> Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246830#246830
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: E-bus design goals |
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Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving |
n
Hi Matt,
Thanks alot for all suggestions. Yes I believe it may be alternator noise as the
prop did windmill for a few second while I was receiving a transmission. I have
fully charged my battery now, and will try to take a landing circuit with
the alternator wires disconnected.
I use the integrated intercom in my Icom IC-A210 transceiver witch works exceptionally
great. The intercom and transmissions are crystall clear.
The noise does exist on ground, but it seems to affect the radio noise even more
as in flight.
I will try out all suggestions tomorrow and come back with a test resault. I have
also got hold on a new RA-Miller com antenna I will try as well as a completly
isolated battery.
Thanks again,
Thomas
intercom(at)spro.net wrote:
> Hello EdgePerformance,
>
> I'm just suggesting some basic trouble shooting methods. One of those
> methods is to disable possible antagonists - things that might be creating
> noise - while still being able to operate the victim. This can help to
> identify which system is the source of the noise. In turn:
>
> - Disable the ignition
> - Disable the alternator
>
> To verify that I understand clearly, you simultaneously turned off both
> ignitions - causing the engine to stop running, but the prop windmilled
> the engine for a short time? And the noise was still present, though the
> frequency was winding down? I would expect that if the ignition were the
> source of the problem, turning the ignition off would instantly stop the
> generation of the noise, even as the engine continued to windmill.
> Assuming this suggests to me that the source of the noise is in the
> charging system.
>
> Can you turn off the alternator while the engine runs?
>
> Another way of attacking the problem is to identify how the noise is
> getting into the victim.
>
> - Running the radio from a battery can help identify if noise is getting
> in through power/ground
> - Disconnecting the antenna (from the back of the radio) can identify if
> the noise is coming through the VHF/RF section of the radio
>
> More questions:
>
> - Do you have a separate audio panel or intercom? Can you disable it?
>
> - Does the noise present itself while on the ground (with the engine
> running)? This would make the debug process easier..
>
> - Is it possible the noise is audio in nature, only (not electrical)?
> Maybe a mic issue? Disconnect the mic plug from the audio system?
>
> On some Permanent Magnet alternator systems, it is recommended that a
> bypass capacitor be installed at the output of the regulator. A cap with
> a value of 10kuF with at least a 40V rating would be adequate.
>
> I apologize if it seems I'm repeating myself.. I just want to make sure
> my non-existent Norwegian isn't causing a communication problem. :)
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt-
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > i have the aerocarb so normally i use idle-cutoff but both magnetic
> > coils
> >
>
>
> > are new and they work fine. Ignition cutoff work great on both cold and
> > hot engine no matter what throttle setting.
> >
>
>
> >
> > What do you mean by antenna mitigate ? My English aren't that great.
> > (Poor
> >
>
>
> > Norwegian).
> >
> > I tried to turn off both ignition switches in flight and the engine
> > didn't
> >
>
>
> > get to stop completely before the transmission was over, but I could
> > clearly hear the noise frequency becoming lower. But that could also be
> >
>
> both alternator and ignition I believe.
>
> >
> > I really hope I can figure this out soon so that I can go out and fly my
> > new build jabiru 2200 turbo kitfox IV.
> >
>
>
> >
> > --------
> > Kitfox IV w Jabiru 2200 TurboAerocarb
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 46830#246830
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247001#247001
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
Ed,
Wouldn't isolating the battery from the alternator stop the alternator from generating
power? Or do you have a permanent magnet alternator?
Or was the alternator originally switched to the auxiliary, now non-existent battery
to keep feeding your e-bus?
Lenny
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247043#247043
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