---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/13/09: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:09 AM - EXPbus 2 (al38kit) 2. 07:39 AM - Re: EXPbus 2 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 07:52 AM - Re: EXPbus 2 (Ian) 4. 09:16 AM - Icom A-22 headphone adapter (Richard Girard) 5. 09:53 AM - Re: EXPbus 2 (Ian) 6. 10:29 AM - Re: EXPbus 2 (Peter Pengilly) 7. 11:45 AM - Re: Spike Catcher Diode (John Burnaby) 8. 12:21 PM - Re: EXPbus 2 (Bill Schoen) 9. 12:32 PM - Re: EXPbus 2 (al38kit) 10. 02:22 PM - Automotive blade fuses? (heisan) 11. 02:44 PM - Re: EXPbus 2 (Ed Anderson) 12. 02:52 PM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 13. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: Spike Catcher Diode (Wade Roe) 14. 03:05 PM - Z-19 Future Plans for use with Eggenfellner Engine (Gordon Smith) 15. 03:06 PM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (SteinAir, Inc.) 16. 03:36 PM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Bill Mauledriver Watson) 17. 04:07 PM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Kevin Horton) 18. 05:35 PM - Re: Re: Spike Catcher Diode (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 06:10 PM - Whip antenna (jetech) 20. 06:10 PM - Re: Re: Spike Catcher Diode (Matt Prather) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:43 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: EXPbus 2 From: "al38kit" Has anyone experience with the EXPbus 2...? Thinking of using one in my rebuild of an Express. I plan to have a dual alternator and battery set up. Good or bad? Al Kittleson MII Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252779#252779 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:30 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXPbus 2 At 09:08 AM 7/13/2009, you wrote: > >Has anyone experience with the EXPbus 2...? > >Thinking of using one in my rebuild of an Express. I plan to have a >dual alternator and battery set up. > >Good or bad? Not "bad" . . . just poor return on investment. Goto my website and use the Google search tool to find instances of "exp" Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXPbus 2 From: Ian Relatively good experience with the product. Nothing good to say about the support. There's one good guy there but he's impossible to get a hold of. You need to keep the EXP2BUS squeaky clean while installing it, and make sure you can get at it for servicing, debugging. I made both mistakes - got a shard of aluminum across two posts and blew a component, despite having vacuumed the area carefully. Took six weeks to resolve. Beware that there is an undocumented over-voltage protection jumper that can shut down the board if your alternator puts out a tad too much voltage. You're best to deselect that option according to their support people, if you have alternate means of over-voltage protection. Ian Brown Bromont Quebec On Mon, 2009-07-13 at 07:08 -0700, al38kit wrote: > > Has anyone experience with the EXPbus 2...? > > Thinking of using one in my rebuild of an Express. I plan to have a dual alternator and battery set up. > > Good or bad? > > Al Kittleson > MII > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252779#252779 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:05 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Icom A-22 headphone adapter From: Richard Girard I finally had a chance to test the handheld on the trike yesterday. Using an ELT antenna in place of the rubber ducky, I can hear over 40 miles from 700 feet. Unfortunately I could not transmit at all. When the button is pushed the RX flag goes out and the TX flag flashes briefly and that's all that happens. This morning I disassembled the pushbutton and confirmed that both switches are working and connected to the two condition mini plug. 1. When I checked the connection from the socket into which the push to talk button connects I get no connection from either the point or the next ring to ground. 2. When I plug in the push to talk the condition in 1 does not change. 3. When I push the button I get a connection from the point of the plug to ground, the middle ring remains open. If I understand correctly, when the radio is in receive mode the transmitter is grounded and when the button is pushed the receiver is grounded and the transmitter is opened. I should mention that I loaned this adapter to a fellow with an A-4 who couldn't get it to work either, but he didn't do any testing on it to try and diagnose the problem. Both of our radios work without the adapter. Does anyone have info to verify if the pushbutton on the head phone adapter is working correctly so I can either get another if it's not or get the radio fixed if it is. Thanks, Rick Girard ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:47 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXPbus 2 From: Ian Actually, I recall price and simplicity of the panel as two of my main drivers, and they've actually both held true. The current price is $299 and for that you get the functionality of ten switches and ten circuit breakers plus a whole load of other functionality. Van's price for pull circuit breakers is $23 each, and you get ten. Toggle switches are about eight bucks and you get ten. You're ahead ten bucks before you begin to talk about wire, added functionality, etc. If the "investment" is purely financial, it's certainly not an expensive way to go. Only having one breaker to check (alt) is a time saving and an added safety factor, in my mind. I am certainly not as well versed in aero-electrics as the typical contributors to this list, but I'm content with the product. Ian On Mon, 2009-07-13 at 09:38 -0500, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 09:08 AM 7/13/2009, you wrote: > > > >Has anyone experience with the EXPbus 2...? > > > >Thinking of using one in my rebuild of an Express. I plan to have a > >dual alternator and battery set up. > > > >Good or bad? > > Not "bad" . . . just poor return on investment. > Goto my website and use the Google search tool > to find instances of "exp" > > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:29:19 AM PST US From: "Peter Pengilly" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EXPbus 2 My experience is reasonably poor. I would not use one in another aircraft. I bought my aircraft with an Exp Bus 2 installed and have flown it for 7 years. Consider: - Limited expansion potential. It is not possible to add additional protected circuits as the number of "breakers" is fixed. - Unable to implement a dual busbar system very easily - I'm sure there is a way to do it but I haven't figured it out. - Expensive for what it is. A fuse block is much cheaper and more versatile. My system has still has a master relay. You really should fit the indicator panel otherwise there is no indication if a "breaker" blows. At $350, including a mounting bracket, it is expensive. A couple of fuse blocks will do the same job. - Intermittent faults. Very occasionally I have a momentary power outage that has to be something to do with the Exp bus, although I have not been able to find out what it is. Fault finding is difficult. I am about to re-build my panel, the Exp Bus 2 will definitely not be flying with me next year. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of al38kit Sent: 13 July 2009 15:08 Subject: AeroElectric-List: EXPbus 2 Has anyone experience with the EXPbus 2...? Thinking of using one in my rebuild of an Express. I plan to have a dual alternator and battery set up. Good or bad? Al Kittleson MII Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252779#252779 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:45:00 AM PST US From: "John Burnaby" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Spike Catcher Diode As long as this subject has bubbled up, I'd like to know how to test my contactors to see if they have internal SCD's. It's been nagging at me for awhile and I'm nearing installing them. Thanks, John ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:43 PM PST US From: Bill Schoen Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EXPbus 2 Ian I bought a EXP tray from ACS about 4 years ago for $424.00 plus a little sh ipping. I stuck it in the panel of my RV-7 project and was going to use it when my engine supplier suggested a different way of handling my dual elect rical system that I understood better and elected not to use the EXP tray w hich is still sitting in the hangar unused and I will sell it for $200 and ship it if you are interested. Bill Schoen flybill2usa@msn.com 719 859-1424 > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXPbus 2 > From: ixb@videotron.ca > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Date: Mon=2C 13 Jul 2009 12:51:05 -0400 > > > Actually=2C I recall price and simplicity of the panel as two of my main > drivers=2C and they've actually both held true. The current price is $299 > and for that you get the functionality of ten switches and ten circuit > breakers plus a whole load of other functionality. > > Van's price for pull circuit breakers is $23 each=2C and you get ten. > > Toggle switches are about eight bucks and you get ten. > > You're ahead ten bucks before you begin to talk about wire=2C added > functionality=2C etc. > > If the "investment" is purely financial=2C it's certainly not an expensiv e > way to go. > > Only having one breaker to check (alt) is a time saving and an added > safety factor=2C in my mind. I am certainly not as well versed in > aero-electrics as the typical contributors to this list=2C but I'm conten t > with the product. > > Ian > > On Mon=2C 2009-07-13 at 09:38 -0500=2C Robert L. Nuckolls=2C III wrote: uckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > > > At 09:08 AM 7/13/2009=2C you wrote: > > > > > >Has anyone experience with the EXPbus 2...? > > > > > >Thinking of using one in my rebuild of an Express. I plan to have a > > >dual alternator and battery set up. > > > > > >Good or bad? > > > > Not "bad" . . . just poor return on investment. > > Goto my website and use the Google search tool > > to find instances of "exp" > > > > > > > > Bob . . . > > > > --------------------------------------- > > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > > ( a thing wrong=2C gives it a superficial ) > > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > > ( ) > > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > > --------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:32:43 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: EXPbus 2 From: "al38kit" Thanks for the info. I found the Panel and annunciator on Ebay and bought it for just over $200 total...I'm going to set it up on the bench and trip some circuits and see how I like it...Thanks, Al Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252829#252829 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:07 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Automotive blade fuses? From: "heisan" I am rapidly heading towards doing the electrical system on my project. Since having a flap fuse blow during a go-around, not being able to climb away until I replaced the fuse, I have decided that I would not like to use standard glass fuses. The holders are fiddly, and it is difficult to determine the rating. I would like to use automotive blade fuses. It is easy to visually identify a blown fuse, easy to replace, and they are colour coded, so ratings are a snap. Are there any disadvantages to using them, or any reasons not to use them? Thanks, Justin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252841#252841 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:26 PM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EXPbus 2 I do not have an EXP2 bus, but, I assisted a guy who purchased an RV 6A with an EXP2 bus. They had to jump start the aircraft at every stop despite having put in a new battery to ferry it home. It turns out somebody had shorted out the EXP2 board apparently by permitting the B lead of an alternator to ground while the boards master switch was on. This caused a short from battery to ground through the board, fried the on-board relay and heated the traces on the circuit board so hot the solder coating flowed off of the. They then made it worst by soldering a heavy jumper across the socket that held the on-board relay. This ensured the battery could not be disconnected from the alternator even with the master off (that was the basic purpose of the fried relay)which what cause the battery to drain down whenever the engine was not running. But, that said, anybody can abuse an electrical system. The new owner elected to replace the board and has had no problem since. However, other's have mentioned some of its limitations (not easy to expand). But, it might be better choice for some folks than trying to roll their own. The price is certainly not unreasonable for what you get. However, there have been reports of unexpected responses that appear to be fairly rare - but get your attention when they happened. One of the things that would worry me a bit, is you have high current traces exposed on the PC board - it would not take much for a aluminum chip, screw, piece of wire, washer, etc to lay across some traces and a ground trace releasing the magic smoke. YMMV. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of al38kit Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 10:08 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: EXPbus 2 Has anyone experience with the EXPbus 2...? Thinking of using one in my rebuild of an Express. I plan to have a dual alternator and battery set up. Good or bad? Al Kittleson MII Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252779#252779 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:17 PM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Automotive blade fuses? Nope and just about every experimantal in the sky is using blade fuses and on multi fuse bases. They work great..You can eve get indicating fuses that light up once they have blown..No real purpose to those however. Frank RV7a -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of heisan Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 2:19 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Automotive blade fuses? --> I am rapidly heading towards doing the electrical system on my project. Since having a flap fuse blow during a go-around, not being able to climb away until I replaced the fuse, I have decided that I would not like to use standard glass fuses. The holders are fiddly, and it is difficult to determine the rating. I would like to use automotive blade fuses. It is easy to visually identify a blown fuse, easy to replace, and they are colour coded, so ratings are a snap. Are there any disadvantages to using them, or any reasons not to use them? Thanks, Justin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252841#252841 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:49 PM PST US From: Wade Roe Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Spike Catcher Diode I know that the Vans contactors do not have diodes. Not sure about those from other sources. Wade Roe IPhone message On Jul 13, 2009, at 1:37 PM, "John Burnaby" wrote: > As long as this subject has bubbled up, I'd like to know how to test > my contactors to see if they have internal SCD's. It's been nagging > at me for awhile and I'm nearing installing them. > > Thanks, > John > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:06 PM PST US From: "Gordon Smith" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Future Plans for use with Eggenfellner Engine Considering that AEC 9005-101 is no more and that AEC 9011-100-1 and AEC 9004-1 will be available in the future. I really like the capability of what the 9011 will do for not only control and enunciation of OV but also the monitoring of LV for 2 electrical busses. (A side note - the REV B 02-04-06 drawing for the 9011 device shows a redundant #6 connection). If the internally regulated alternator used with this system is like the Plane Power and the Enable/Field connection carries the field current (as indicated in 'Lectric Bob's correspondence with plane power), I assume the following: * AEC9004 is not needed with the AEC 9011. * The Special Disconnect Relay will break the field connection, which would be powered to the relay from the 5A.CB and back to the ALT On Switch. * The N.O. terminal on the Disconnect Relay, could be connected to ground. This would open the 5A.CB when the relay was activated. This is redundant, I am sure. But can it hurt? Does tripping of the 5A.CB at the time of every pre-flight test/reset series cause a problem? If the internally regulated alternator is not as above and the field current cannot be broken; I assume that this is where AEC 9004 is needed. How is this integrated into the above? Two other related questions: * I understand that Jan Eggenfellner recommends that both main batteries should be used in parallel during an engine start. Is there any reason that a "Brown-Out" addition should not be considered as was done in converting Z-13/8 to Z-10/8? It only adds cost/weight of one more small battery and one more small relay. A side benefit is that this would add somewhat to the alternator out flight duration. * In looking at Eggenfellner's most current recommendation for the electrical power system to be used with his engines, I would like to consider the following: Instead of one 4PDT switch to the engine, it makes sense to me to have 2 4PST switches through a double power diode to each of the 4 essential engine items (the 4th for me would be the propeller). Eliminate the "Ignition Switch". This to me reduces parts count and eliminates a single point of failure (double throw switch). Comments? ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:09 PM PST US From: "SteinAir, Inc." Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Automotive blade fuses? That is really what you should be using (is ATO blade type fuses) over the glass fuses. From our experience, using glass fuses has many negatives and they aren't something we'd really recommend for airplanes anymore. One big benefit to the blad fuses is now you can get them with tiny LED's in them that illuminate when the fuse "blows", basicacally you can see at a glance if the fuse blow because it'll be lighted. Cheers, Stein >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of heisan >Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 4:19 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Automotive blade fuses? > > > >I am rapidly heading towards doing the electrical system on my project. > >Since having a flap fuse blow during a go-around, not being able >to climb away until I replaced the fuse, I have decided that I >would not like to use standard glass fuses. The holders are >fiddly, and it is difficult to determine the rating. > >I would like to use automotive blade fuses. It is easy to >visually identify a blown fuse, easy to replace, and they are >colour coded, so ratings are a snap. > >Are there any disadvantages to using them, or any reasons not to use them? > >Thanks, >Justin > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252841#252841 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:10 PM PST US From: Bill Mauledriver Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Automotive blade fuses? I am using blade fuses in my RV10 project but I can't speak to advantages/disadvantages other than cost when compared to breakers. I think you will find lot's of support here for these fuses and fuses in general. However, I had the same thought about my flaps. As a result, I will have 4 pullable breakers in my Z-14 1) Flaps (so they can be reset) 2) Autopilot controllers and servo (as an emergency off switch) 3) LR3C Alternator Regulator number 1 4) LR3C " " number 2 I've built the panel, wired the fuse panel, and wired the breakers. So far, so good with the plan. Bill Watson heisan wrote: > > I am rapidly heading towards doing the electrical system on my project. > > Since having a flap fuse blow during a go-around, not being able to climb away until I replaced the fuse, I have decided that I would not like to use standard glass fuses. The holders are fiddly, and it is difficult to determine the rating. > > I would like to use automotive blade fuses. It is easy to visually identify a blown fuse, easy to replace, and they are colour coded, so ratings are a snap. > > Are there any disadvantages to using them, or any reasons not to use them? > > Thanks, > Justin > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252841#252841 > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:19 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Automotive blade fuses? On 13 Jul 2009, at 17:19, heisan wrote: > > > > I am rapidly heading towards doing the electrical system on my > project. > > Since having a flap fuse blow during a go-around, not being able to > climb away until I replaced the fuse, I have decided that I would > not like to use standard glass fuses. The holders are fiddly, and > it is difficult to determine the rating. You really ought to limit the full flap angle such that you can safely do a go-around with flaps down, if needed, as there are a whole bunch of other reasons why you could be unable to retract them someday - e.g. flap motor failure, flap switch failure, ground wire failure, shorted wiring, etc. The type of wire over current protection to use should be considered independently from the flap failure on go around case. -- Kevin Horton (Grounded) RV-8 (Flight Test Phase) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:04 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Spike Catcher Diode At 01:37 PM 7/13/2009, you wrote: >As long as this subject has bubbled up, I'd like to know how to test >my contactors to see if they have internal SCD's. It's been nagging >at me for awhile and I'm nearing installing them. The only contactors that I've sold with built in diodes said so on the bottom of the mounting bracket. If you have a 'scope it's easy to tell in a simple bench test setup (or just keep your fingers across the coil contacts while you break the circuit . . . if you don't "jump" then there's a diode installed. Given that they are easy to get and inexpensive, put them on unless you already KNOW that they're present inside. Very few contactors come with them built in . . . I had to search for the one I sold. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:39 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Whip antenna From: "jetech" I have a few questions on mounting a VHF wire (whip) antenna on my low wing tube and fabric plane. I was going to use the hand held stub antenna mounted on the bottom of the fuselage but found my project plane has a 45 degree wire antenna that we are not going to reuse. This antenna had the center coax wire connected to the antenna stud and the shielding was connected to the metal panel that the antenna was mounted to. My plan is to clamp a bracket to the tubing to mount the antenna and run the shielding to a nearby ground. Am I thinking correct on this? I know its not the best installation but its for a hand held radio. Also, the antenna is a 45 degree unit but I need to bend it beyond 45 to get ground clearance, any problems doing this? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252882#252882 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Spike Catcher Diode From: "Matt Prather" Seems like you could test for a diode with a 9V battery and a volt meter.. Apply voltage to the coil in one direction, and something close to the full voltage of the battery should be present.. Swap the terminals on the battery, and the voltage on the coil should be limited to a diode drop - maybe about 0.8V depending on what kind of diode they use. I don't think this method would put any of the components involved at risk. Matt- > At 01:37 PM 7/13/2009, you wrote: >>As long as this subject has bubbled up, I'd like to know how to test >>my contactors to see if they have internal SCD's. It's been nagging >>at me for awhile and I'm nearing installing them. > > The only contactors that I've sold with built in > diodes said so on the bottom of the mounting > bracket. If you have a 'scope it's easy to tell > in a simple bench test setup (or just keep your > fingers across the coil contacts while you break > the circuit . . . if you don't "jump" then > there's a diode installed. > > Given that they are easy to get and inexpensive, > put them on unless you already KNOW that they're > present inside. Very few contactors come with them > built in . . . I had to search for the one I > sold. > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.