AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Tue 07/14/09


Total Messages Posted: 28



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: Spike Catcher Diode (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 05:51 AM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     3. 06:08 AM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (heisan)
     4. 06:26 AM - Re: Z-19 Future Plans for use with Eggenfellner Engine (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 06:38 AM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 06:38 AM - Re: Whip antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     7. 06:40 AM - Re: Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Jim Wickert)
     8. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Bob Borger)
     9. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Ernest Christley)
    10. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
    11. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: Automotive blade fuses? (plaurence)
    12. 08:45 AM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
    13. 08:49 AM - Re: Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
    14. 08:54 AM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (plaurence)
    15. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Automotive blade fuses? ()
    16. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Byron Janzen)
    17. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Chris Stone)
    18. 09:39 AM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    19. 10:12 AM - Re: Altitude Encoder Readout (LARRY SHARRATT)
    20. 10:36 AM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (plaurence)
    21. 10:55 AM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
    22. 01:13 PM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Robert Mitchell)
    23. 01:47 PM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
    24. 03:16 PM - Re: Voltage problem (Frank Stringham)
    25. 05:03 PM - Re: Voltage problem (Matt Prather)
    26. 05:50 PM - Re: Voltage problem (Frank Stringham)
    27. 08:12 PM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    28. 08:59 PM - Re: Voltage problem (Matt Prather)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:33:53 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Spike Catcher Diode
    At 08:03 PM 7/13/2009, you wrote: > >Seems like you could test for a diode with a 9V battery and a volt meter.. > Apply voltage to the coil in one direction, and something close to the >full voltage of the battery should be present.. Swap the terminals on the >battery, and the voltage on the coil should be limited to a diode drop - >maybe about 0.8V depending on what kind of diode they use. MUCH better idea! Actually, if the 9V battery is fresh, the contactor will pull in for BOTH directions of battery connection if NO diode is present . . . and FAIL to pull in for ONE direction if diode IS present. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:51:17 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Automotive blade fuses?
    > >The type of wire over current protection to use should be considered >independently from the flap failure on go around case. Absolutely! Over the years I've received many e-mails where the builder was concerned about being able to "reset" a tripped current protection while citing some personal experience or perhaps a dark-n-stormy-night story where resetting breakers was part of the script. I'll refer new readers to the following discussions from years past . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuseorcb.html http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fusvbkr2.html http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/failtoll.pdf The short answer to the fuses vs. breakers question asks the builder to consider that there are far more events that cause a system to stop working that DO NOT trip the circuit protection than events that DO trip the circuit protection. Over-current trips are for protection of the airframe from smoke and fire caused by faulted wires. The properly sized circuit protection will never nuisance trip. I.e., when it DOES trip, that system is telling you that it's out of the ball game. It's time to call in the relief pitcher. Inclusion of pilot resetable circuit protection with any notions of increasing system reliability is wishful thinking. In the OBAM aviation world we can FIX a nuisance tripping system by up-sizing the protection and wire size before the next flight. In the TC aircraft world, you need to get permission and then spend a lot of money to do it. Isn't that one of several reasons we're all here talking about it on the List? Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:08:25 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Automotive blade fuses?
    From: "heisan" <justin@expertron.co.za>
    Thanks everybody. When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers. Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty! Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use. Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders? Options here are few and far between. Thanks, Justin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252936#252936


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:26:26 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Z-19 Future Plans for use with Eggenfellner Engine
    At 04:56 PM 7/13/2009, you wrote: Considering that AEC 9005-101 is no more and that AEC 9011-100-1 The 9005 product included a power transistor suited to the direct control of the aux battery contactor . . . which encouraged the use of a 2-10 style switch for aux battery master. In the interest of simplicity I went to simple annunciation of low aux battery voltage -AND- a simpler switch to control it. If you want an automatic management feature, you can use the ABMM product from http://www.periheliondesign.com/ or built from scratch as described on my website. I really like the capability of what the 9011 will do for not only control and enunciation of OV but also the monitoring of LV for 2 electrical busses. (A side note the REV B 02-04-06 drawing for the 9011 device shows a redundant #6 connection). Yeah, there's a couple of things that need fixing. Note too that the 9011 has a LOT of features just because we can put them in for little if any extra cost. On can use all or any combination of the features depending on design goals. For example, it's not a great "waste" to use a 9011 as a simple, single channel LV warning. The basic 9011 package, warning lights, and OV relay will be separately offered products. If the internally regulated alternator used with this system is like the Plane Power and the Enable/Field connection carries the field current (as indicated in Lectric Bobs correspondence with plane power), I assume the following: AEC9004 is not needed with the AEC 9011. Correct. The AEC9004 allows builders to install ANY internally regulated alternator and exercise any time, any conditions ON/OFF control while achieving the legacy design goals for independent monitoring and control for OV conditions. It's use is dictated by the internally regulated alternator. The 9011 would still be used for LV annunciation in all cases where that feature is not offered in other accessories. The Special Disconnect Relay will break the field connection, which would be powered to the relay from the 5A.CB and back to the ALT On Switch. Yes. Note that the relay was re-incorporated so that the 9011 can be used with EITHER alternators or generators. The N.O. terminal on the Disconnect Relay, could be connected to ground. This would open the 5A.CB when the relay was activated. This is redundant, I am sure. But can it hurt? Does tripping of the 5A.CB at the time of every pre-flight test/reset series cause a problem? No need to do this. The microprocessor in the 9011 latches the relay to keep the alternator/generator off line. The OV trip light (if installed) will illuminate. The LV warning lights (if installed) will begin to complain shortly thereafter. If the internally regulated alternator is not as above and the field current cannot be broken; I assume that this is where AEC 9004 is needed. How is this integrated into the above? Yes, the AEC9004 is used on internally regulated alternators only. Two other related questions: I understand that Jan Eggenfellner recommends that both main batteries should be used in parallel during an engine start. Is there any reason that a Brown-Out addition should not be considered as was done in converting Z-13/8 to Z-10/8? It only adds cost/weight of one more small battery and one more small relay. A side benefit is that this would add somewhat to the alternator out flight duration. Depends on your installed equipment and design goals. If you have electro-whizzies that you intend to power up before starting that do not tolerate brown-outs, then keeping one battery out of the cranking loop is required. If you start up such devices only after the engine is started, then using both batteries to crank is fine . . . but either battery should be capable of starting an engine. In looking at Eggenfellners most current recommendation for the electrical power system to be used with his engines, I would like to consider the following: Instead of one 4PDT switch to the engine, it makes sense to me to have 2 4PST switches through a double power diode to each of the 4 essential engine items (the 4th for me would be the propeller). Eliminate the Ignition Switch. This to me reduces parts count and eliminates a single point of failure (double throw switch). Comments? Single point failure elimination is a design goal for all well considered Failure Modes Effects Analysis. Anything you can do to reduce if not eliminate all "sharing" of components between primary and backup systems is a good thing to do. Bob . . .


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:38:29 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Automotive blade fuses?
    At 04:59 PM 7/13/2009, you wrote: > >That is really what you should be using (is ATO blade type fuses) over the >glass fuses. From our experience, using glass fuses has many negatives and >they aren't something we'd really recommend for airplanes anymore. Absolutely! These have fragile internal connections at the ends of the fusible links . . . they also used large area, low pressure connections in their holders. Not gas-tight. >One big benefit to the blade fuses is now you can get them with tiny LED's in >them that illuminate when the fuse "blows", basicacally you can see at a >glance if the fuse blow because it'll be lighted. . . . assuming that circuit is "turned on". Fuse popping in a properly sized protection scheme is exceedingly rare. How many times have any of us replaced fuses in our cars over the past 20 years? I've had two such experiences. Both involved fuses that were blown for cause . . . i.e. something wrong in the protected system. My wife's cars have yet to present such opportunities. If you deduce that ANY system in your airplane is necessary for comfortable termination of flight, then one is well advised to have a plan-b for any and all such systems. I.e., being able to replace fuses or re-set breakers is NOT a plan. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:38:30 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Whip antenna
    >My plan is to clamp a bracket to the tubing to mount the antenna and >run the shielding to a nearby ground. Am I thinking correct on >this? I know its not the best installation but its for a hand held radio. That will work. >Also, the antenna is a 45 degree unit but I need to bend it beyond >45 to get ground clearance, any problems doing this? No problem. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:40:07 AM PST US
    From: Jim Wickert <jimw_btg@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Automotive blade fuses?
    Justin There are several but I have my best luck with Waytek, Inc. very good quality and price, also they have the blade fuses with "SMART FUSE" indicator. Happy building. www.wyatekwire.com Take Care. Jim Wickert Vision #159 CL 4.5 "Vision" some will have some will not. -----Original Message----- >From: heisan <justin@expertron.co.za> >Sent: Jul 14, 2009 8:06 AM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Automotive blade fuses? > > >Thanks everybody. > >When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers. Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty! > >Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use. > >Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders? Options here are few and far between. > >Thanks, >Justin > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252936#252936 > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:43:25 AM PST US
    From: Bob Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
    Subject: Re: Automotive blade fuses?
    Justin, B&C has several fuse holders and fuse sets available: http://www.bandc.biz/index.aspx As does SteinAir: http://www.steinair.com/ And probably other good dealers as well. Bob Borger On Tuesday, July 14, 2009, at 08:06AM, "heisan" <justin@expertron.co.za> wrote: > >Thanks everybody. > >When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers. Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty! > >Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use. > >Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders? Options here are few and far between. > >Thanks, >Justin > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252936#252936 > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:13:52 AM PST US
    From: Ernest Christley <echristley@nc.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Automotive blade fuses?
    heisan wrote: > Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders? Options here are few and far between. > > Thanks, > Justin > > http://cgi.ebay.com/10-Way-Blade-Fuse-Box-Holder-lucar-terminals_W0QQitemZ120430551339QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item1c0a38612b&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177&_trkparms=|293%3A1|294%3A50 Generally, search eBay for "ATC fuse holder". -- http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:13:52 AM PST US
    From: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Automotive blade fuses?
    I got mine from B&C. Their inventory is limited to exactly what you need. I'm sure with some effort, everything can be found elsewhere and found cheaper perhaps. http://www.bandcspecialty.com/ heisan wrote: > > Thanks everybody. > > When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers. Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty! > > Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use. > > Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders? Options here are few and far between. > > Thanks, > Justin > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252936#252936 > > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 08:44:31 AM PST US
    From: "plaurence" <peterlaurence6@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Automotive blade fuses?
    Try http://www.mihdirect.biz/ Peter I got mine from B&C. Their inventory is limited to exactly what you need. I'm sure with some effort, everything can be found elsewhere and found cheaper perhaps. http://www.bandcspecialty.com/ . > > When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers. Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty! > > Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use. > > Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders? Options here are few and far between. > > Thanks, > Justin > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252936#252936 > > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 08:45:15 AM PST US
    From: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Automotive blade fuses?
    I've adopted the fuse approach in my RV10 project with 2 fuse holders in the passenger's foot well. I did put a resettable breaker in for the flaps. My thinking at the timee was that the flap motor could be overpowered by actuation at excessive speeds. Of course, if the plane is flown properly, the whole issue is avoided. And failure in such a circumstance would probably result in the flaps failing in a very flyable condition. So I assume it's probably unnecessary. It was just the only scenario I could come up with for a resettable breaker (I have 3 others - AP as an emergency disconnect, and 2 for the LR3Cs) 2 days ago, I think I got a lesson in what is meant by "The properly sized circuit protection will never nuisance trip". During some testing in the shop, I left my panel powered on an hour or so. When I returned, one display was dark. I check the fuse and found it had blown. A few minutes later, the other 2 displays re-booted and eventually shut themselves down. What happened? Turns out that 1 of my batteries (Odyssesy 680s) had lost a cell. I hadn't expected that but in retrospect, the battery had been abused. It's 2 years old and it's been left for long periods of time at less than full charge. I think the last straw may be hooking up the 'always-on' circuits for the 3 display unit clocks (GRT HX) and continuing an irregular charging schedule. While the GRT displays will run at less than 14 or 12 volts, the current goes up as the voltage drops. It appears that with a failed cell, the voltage was down to 10.5 volts or less and the current increased to a point that blew the 3 amp blade fuse. Cautiously, I put a 2 amp fuse in the holder and that blew immediately. Later, I used my crossfeed switch on my Z14 configuration and the panel operated normally. It was arguably a nuisance trip. What I take away from this is that even though the GRT manuals indicate that at least a 2 amp fuse is required with a 5 amp max fuse for the circuit, the best solution would be to size the fuse to protect the wire (5 for awg20, 10 for awg 18). The GRT manuals also state that the units are internally protected against internal faults which suggests that the external fuse is only in place to protect the circuit. What I also take away is that if I had a battery cell failure in the air, I would be very busy with a display failed by an unnecessarily blown fuse. Even with a Z14 with dual busses and batteries. Robust sizing for wire protection would limit failures to internal unit faults which takes the whole fuse box out of the equation. My plan is to strictly size the fuses for wire protection so I can take full advantage of the Z14's redundancy. List, what do you think? Thanks Bob, Bill Watson Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > >> >> The type of wire over current protection to use should be considered >> independently from the flap failure on go around case. > > Absolutely! Over the years I've received many e-mails > where the builder was concerned about being able to > "reset" a tripped current protection while citing some > personal experience or perhaps a dark-n-stormy-night > story where resetting breakers was part of the script. > > I'll refer new readers to the following discussions > from years past . . . > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuseorcb.html > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fusvbkr2.html > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/failtoll.pdf > > The short answer to the fuses vs. breakers question > asks the builder to consider that there are far > more events that cause a system to stop working > that DO NOT trip the circuit protection than events > that DO trip the circuit protection. > > Over-current trips are for protection of the > airframe from smoke and fire caused by faulted wires. > The properly sized circuit protection will never > nuisance trip. I.e., when it DOES trip, that > system is telling you that it's out of the > ball game. It's time to call in the relief > pitcher. Inclusion of pilot resetable circuit > protection with any notions of increasing > system reliability is wishful thinking. > > In the OBAM aviation world we can FIX a nuisance > tripping system by up-sizing the protection and > wire size before the next flight. In the TC > aircraft world, you need to get permission > and then spend a lot of money to do it. > Isn't that one of several reasons we're all > here talking about it on the List? > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:49:24 AM PST US
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    Subject: Re: Automotive blade fuses?
    Yup..Stein air and there are many automotive outlets that have them..Try summit racing or Jc whitney etc.,,I even found my local autozone have them. There are some wonderful A&P's around but you have to remember that they are taught that everything that is FAA mandated is good and anything designed after 1940 is BAAAAD..thats why we still have vacuum pumps on cessna's which give about the same odds for survival in IMC as playing Russian roulette...Ok slight exageration maybe..:) Frank RV7a electrically dependant, no mechanical fuel pump, no mags and flys in IMC! -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of heisan Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 6:07 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Automotive blade fuses? --> <justin@expertron.co.za> Thanks everybody. When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers. Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty! Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use. Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders? Options here are few and far between. Thanks, Justin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252936#252936


    Message 14


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    Time: 08:54:35 AM PST US
    From: "plaurence" <peterlaurence6@gmail.com>
    Subject: Automotive blade fuses?
    Is there such a thing as a slo blow ATO fuse? Peter


    Message 15


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    Time: 08:54:39 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Automotive blade fuses?
    From: <longg@pjm.com>
    Justin, Pegasus offers the same item as B & C at a competitive cost. As much of the OBAM stuff is derived from auto racing they also sell a lot of other things you'll need to make that bird fly. They're stock is high quality and they normally ship the same day. http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=4402 Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Christley Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 9:54 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Automotive blade fuses? <echristley@nc.rr.com> heisan wrote: > Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders? Options here are few and far between. > > Thanks, > Justin > > http://cgi.ebay.com/10-Way-Blade-Fuse-Box-Holder-lucar-terminals_W0QQite mZ120430551339QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash item1c0a38612b&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177&_trkparms=|293%3A1|294%3A50 Generally, search eBay for "ATC fuse holder". -- http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org


    Message 16


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    Time: 09:16:32 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Automotive blade fuses?
    From: Byron Janzen <thorps18@gmail.com>
    A couple good sources for electrical supplies: http://www.bandc.biz/electricalsupplies.aspx http://www.steinair.com/store.htm On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 6:06 AM, heisan <justin@expertron.co.za> wrote: > > Thanks everybody. > > When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers. Two A&Ps > I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is > difficult to make the pretty! > > Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use. > > Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders? > Options here are few and far between. > > Thanks, > Justin > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252936#252936 > >


    Message 17


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    Time: 09:16:33 AM PST US
    From: Chris Stone <rv8iator@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Automotive blade fuses?
    My personal favorite... http://tinyurl.com/nnmgg5 This is the Bussman 20 circuit/ two buss panel mount ATC/ATO fuse block. Stienair and BandC have the surface mount styles for the same fuses. Chris Stone RV-8 -----Original Message----- >From: heisan <justin@expertron.co.za> >Sent: Jul 14, 2009 9:06 AM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Automotive blade fuses? > > >Thanks everybody. > >When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers. Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty! > >Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use. > >Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders? Options here are few and far between. > >Thanks, >Justin > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252936#252936 > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 09:39:48 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Automotive blade fuses?
    At 10:44 AM 7/14/2009, you wrote: ><peterlaurence6@gmail.com> > >Is there such a thing as a slo blow ATO fuse? No. When you need slow-blow characteristics it's usually associated with hi-inrush and or wildly variable current demands. Pitot heaters, hydraulic pumps, etc come to mind. For this we recommend MANL style current limiters like . . . Emacs! These have very long time constants. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 19


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    Time: 10:12:45 AM PST US
    From: LARRY SHARRATT <sandlar1@embarqmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Altitude Encoder Readout
    Thanks - I appreciate the replies to my question. Just after posting the question, I inadvertently unsubscribed from the list so just read a couple of the replies today, thus the delay in acknowledging your responses. Thanks again. Larry Sharratt ----- Original Message ----- From: "LARRY SHARRATT" <sandlar1@embarqmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2009 10:46:09 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Altitude Encoder Readout Don't know if this is the proper forum for this, but here goes: Some years ago, maybe 15 or so, there was an article in Sport Aviation regarding a kit for a panel-mounted device which would give a constant display of what the encoder was sending. Since then, I haven't heard of any such instrument, except what's incorporated in the newer transponders. Does anyone on this forum know of any such self-contained instrument that could be used with the older transponders/encoders? Thanks Larry Sharratt


    Message 20


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    Time: 10:36:08 AM PST US
    From: "plaurence" <peterlaurence6@gmail.com>
    Subject: Automotive blade fuses?
    Bob, The reason I asked this question was that a friend just installed an EFIS made by MGL. They recommend a slow blow fuse . I thought this was odd. Any ideas. My next inquiry will be with MGL. Thanks Peter Laurence _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 12:37 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Automotive blade fuses? At 10:44 AM 7/14/2009, you wrote: <peterlaurence6@gmail.com> Is there such a thing as a slo blow ATO fuse? No. When you need slow-blow characteristics it's usually associated with hi-inrush and or wildly variable current demands. Pitot heaters, hydraulic pumps, etc come to mind. For this we recommend MANL style current limiters like . . . Emacs! These have very long time constants. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 21


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    Time: 10:55:52 AM PST US
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    Subject: Automotive blade fuses?
    I don't know of anyone who put in anything other than the standard ATO blad e fuse in with an EFIS..My guess is MGL was speaking generically. I would s uggest going the next size up on th cable and installed the rated fuse, you can always increase the fuse rating after if necessary..But I really doubt and EFIS would have a hi enough in-rush current to blow a standard fuse at the correct steady state rating. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of plaurence Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 10:29 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Automotive blade fuses? Bob, The reason I asked this question was that a friend just installed an EFIS m ade by MGL. They recommend a slow blow fuse . I thought this was odd. Any ideas. My next inquiry will be with MGL. Thanks Peter Laurence ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 12:37 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Automotive blade fuses? At 10:44 AM 7/14/2009, you wrote: com> Is there such a thing as a slo blow ATO fuse? No. When you need slow-blow characteristics it's usually associated with hi-inrush and or wildly variable current demands. Pitot heaters, hydraulic pumps, etc come to mind. For this we recommend MANL style current limiters like . . . [cid:814044917@14072009-1E25] These have very long time constants. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 22


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    Time: 01:13:42 PM PST US
    From: "Robert Mitchell" <rmitch1@hughes.net>
    Subject: Automotive blade fuses?
    Take a look at the RV-12, esp. the E-LSA version. It is all fuses (no substitution allowed under E-LSA protocol, but, they use a type that lights up when blown. How does that work? Bob Mitchell Lancair 320 _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 09:37 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Automotive blade fuses? At 10:44 AM 7/14/2009, you wrote: <peterlaurence6@gmail.com> Is there such a thing as a slo blow ATO fuse? No. When you need slow-blow characteristics it's usually associated with hi-inrush and or wildly variable current demands. Pitot heaters, hydraulic pumps, etc come to mind. For this we recommend MANL style current limiters like . . . Emacs! These have very long time constants. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 23


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    Time: 01:47:24 PM PST US
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    Subject: Automotive blade fuses?
    Led strapped across the terminals...When it is NOT blown the LED is bypasse d by the fuse..When it blows current flows thru the led to the fault..Its a micro-amps so not enough current to heat the wire but enough to light the led..Which essentially acts like a big resistor. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Mitchell Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 1:10 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Automotive blade fuses? Take a look at the RV-12, esp. the E-LSA version. It is all fuses (no subs titution allowed under E-LSA protocol, but, they use a type that lights up when blown. How does that work? Bob Mitchell Lancair 320 ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 09:37 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Automotive blade fuses? At 10:44 AM 7/14/2009, you wrote: com> Is there such a thing as a slo blow ATO fuse? No. When you need slow-blow characteristics it's usually associated with hi-inrush and or wildly variable current demands. Pitot heaters, hydraulic pumps, etc come to mind. For this we recommend MANL style current limiters like . . . [cid:080413120@14072009-1E2C] These have very long time constants. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 24


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    Time: 03:16:47 PM PST US
    From: Frank Stringham <fstringham@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Voltage problem
    I am just about to put my RV7A in the air but....I have one minor problem t o solve. The Dynon EMS D-120 is not indicating TRUE voltage output both wit h the engine in operation or when running on the battery. My electrical architecture is Z13/8 modified to have the B&C 40 amp alterna tor regulated by LR3C-14. The amp/current pick off shunt is in location A position as found in the Dynon EMS D-120 install manual page 3.12. When the Master Battery/Main Alternator switch is actuated the Dynon shows 10.8 vol t. When the Essential bus is actuated the voltage climbs to 12.8 with or wi thout the Master on. Every possible connection point has had a continuity check/voltage check co mpleted. We have also followed the B & C LR3C-14 trouble shooting guide whi ch had no neitive results so the LR3C would SEEM to be OK . All grounds hav e been checked for problems...one found. But all (except using B&C trouble shooting guide)roads seem to lead to a ba d LR3C-14.....but Bill at B&C thinks there has to be another problem....... .............In short every connection up to the regulator are 12.8 volts w ith the master on but once past the LR3C it read 10.8 at the power pin loca tion #1 on the D-Sub. This indicated two things the problem is at the LR3C and the Dynon D120 is isolated showing it isn't the problem................ .... We know the altenators ..... both main and aux SD8 are doing there thing be cause when we have ground run the engine the battery charge has been mainta ined So where do I check next?????????????????????????????? Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... ready to fly?????maybe _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail=AE. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tut orial_QuickAdd_062009


    Message 25


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    Time: 05:03:09 PM PST US
    Subject: Voltage problem
    From: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
    For debugging, have you been using a separate meter from the voltage information provided by the Dynon? It's not clear to me from your description of the process.. Asked differently, how do you know what the TRUE voltage is? As an aside, what I get from the Dynon manual is that the voltage displayed is that which is found on Pin 1 of the 37 pin harness. From that, I gather that where you have the shunts wired is of no consequence when considering what voltage is displayed by the Dynon. It's possible I missed your point however. Closing the e-bus feed shorts past the e-bus diode so that you get full battery voltage to the Dynon (which I gather is connected to the e-bus). Is 12.8V what is read with the engine running? Is the LR3C installed in place of the Ford regulator? Sounds interesting.. Matt- > > > I am just about to put my RV7A in the air but....I have one minor problem > to solve. The Dynon EMS D-120 is not indicating TRUE voltage output both > with the engine in operation or when running on the battery. > > > My electrical architecture is Z13/8 modified to have the B&C 40 amp > alternator regulated by LR3C-14. The amp/current pick off shunt is in > location A position as found in the Dynon EMS D-120 install manual page > 3.12. When the Master Battery/Main Alternator switch is actuated the Dynon > shows 10.8 volt. When the Essential bus is actuated the voltage climbs to > 12.8 with or without the Master on. > > Every possible connection point has had a continuity check/voltage check > completed. We have also followed the B & C LR3C-14 trouble shooting guide > which had no neitive results so the LR3C would SEEM to be OK . All grounds > have been checked for problems...one found. > > > But all (except using B&C trouble shooting guide)roads seem to lead to a > bad LR3C-14.....but Bill at B&C thinks there has to be another > problem....................In short every connection up to the regulator > are 12.8 volts with the master on but once past the LR3C it read 10.8 at > the power pin location #1 on the D-Sub. This indicated two things the > problem is at the LR3C and the Dynon D120 is isolated showing it isn't the > problem.................... > > > We know the altenators ..... both main and aux SD8 are doing there thing > because when we have ground run the engine the battery charge has been > maintained > > > So where do I check next?????????????????????????????? > > > Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... ready to fly?????maybe > > _________________________________________________________________ > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009


    Message 26


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    Time: 05:50:11 PM PST US
    From: Frank Stringham <fstringham@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Voltage problem
    Hi Matt Thanks for the ? and info. I have answered yoou in the body of your query. > Date: Tue=2C 14 Jul 2009 17:56:59 -0600 > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Voltage problem > From: mprather@spro.net > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > t> > > For debugging=2C have you been using a separate meter from the voltage > information provided by the Dynon? It's not clear to me from your > description of the process.. > YES a DVM > Asked differently=2C how do you know what the TRUE voltage is? > SEE Above.... > As an aside=2C what I get from the Dynon manual is that the voltage > displayed is that which is found on Pin 1 of the 37 pin harness. From > that=2C I gather that where you have the shunts wired is of no consequenc e > when considering what voltage is displayed by the Dynon. It's possible I > missed your point however. ....Your point is true as to where the voltage is obtained by the Dynon. The shunt shows and + 0r negative amps. > > Closing the e-bus feed shorts past the e-bus diode so that you get full > battery voltage to the Dynon (which I gather is connected to the e-bus). Yes=2C and this has not been checked ...... will be doing that straight awa y. > > > Is 12.8V what is read with the engine running? Only if the essential bus is closed and the master is opened.....Both while the engine is running and just on battery!!! > > > Is the LR3C installed in place of the Ford regulator? Yes. > > > > Sounds interesting.. > > Matt- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am just about to put my RV7A in the air but....I have one minor probl em > > to solve. The Dynon EMS D-120 is not indicating TRUE voltage output bot h > > with the engine in operation or when running on the battery. > > > > > > > > My electrical architecture is Z13/8 modified to have the B&C 40 amp > > alternator regulated by LR3C-14. The amp/current pick off shunt is in > > location A position as found in the Dynon EMS D-120 install manual page > > 3.12. When the Master Battery/Main Alternator switch is actuated the Dy non > > shows 10.8 volt. When the Essential bus is actuated the voltage climbs to > > 12.8 with or without the Master on. > > > > Every possible connection point has had a continuity check/voltage chec k > > completed. We have also followed the B & C LR3C-14 trouble shooting gui de > > which had no neitive results so the LR3C would SEEM to be OK . All grou nds > > have been checked for problems...one found. > > > > > > > > But all (except using B&C trouble shooting guide)roads seem to lead to a > > bad LR3C-14.....but Bill at B&C thinks there has to be another > > problem....................In short every connection up to the regulato r > > are 12.8 volts with the master on but once past the LR3C it read 10.8 a t > > the power pin location #1 on the D-Sub. This indicated two things the > > problem is at the LR3C and the Dynon D120 is isolated showing it isn't the > > problem.................... > > > > > > > > We know the altenators ..... both main and aux SD8 are doing there thin g > > because when we have ground run the engine the battery charge has been > > maintained > > > > > > > > So where do I check next?????????????????????????????? > > > > > > > > Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... ready to fly?????maybe > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail=AE. > > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM _Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009


    Message 27


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    Time: 08:12:37 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Automotive blade fuses?
    At 12:29 PM 7/14/2009, you wrote: >Bob, > >The reason I asked this question was that a friend just installed an >EFIS made by MGL. They recommend a slow blow fuse . > >I thought this was odd. Any ideas. My next inquiry will be with MGL. Hmmmm . . . can't imagine why they would ask for one. Haven't had occasion to call one out in a new design for about 30 years. These are pretty much dim memories of another time. In glass 1/4 x 1-1/4 fuses these are the MDL series. I've got a drawer full of various sizes that I'm NOT moving to the new shop in M.L. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 28


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    Time: 08:59:35 PM PST US
    Subject: Voltage problem
    From: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
    Frank, It sounds rather like neither alternator is functioning. Or at least it sounds like neither of them are getting connected to the bus. It is odd that you measure 12.8 volts on the bus with the e-bus switch closed - I would have guessed that would sag down a bit after a bit of starting and running the engine.. What does the ammeter read with the engine off? On? What ignition source are you using? Mags, Pmags? The dynamo wiring is probably the easiest to check. Does your system have the dynamo disconnect relay? Can you hear that relay close when you flip the control switch? With the engine off, closing the relay should put 12v on the red lead to the regulator. Is that happening? On the main alternator, I'd be snooping around to see if voltage is going through the field - this can be checked with the engine off. With the DC master turned on, the regulator should get power through the A terminal, and should put power on the F terminal - energizing the field. If that's happening, the alternator should put out power - if it's good. Is the 5A field breaker good? Regards, Matt- > > Hi Matt > > > Thanks for the ? and info. I have answered yoou in the body of your query. > > >> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 17:56:59 -0600 >> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Voltage problem >> From: mprather@spro.net >> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> >> <mprather@spro.net> >> >> For debugging, have you been using a separate meter from the voltage >> information provided by the Dynon? It's not clear to me from your >> description of the process.. >> YES a DVM >> Asked differently, how do you know what the TRUE voltage is? >> SEE Above.... >> As an aside, what I get from the Dynon manual is that the voltage >> displayed is that which is found on Pin 1 of the 37 pin harness. From >> that, I gather that where you have the shunts wired is of no consequence >> when considering what voltage is displayed by the Dynon. It's possible I >> missed your point however. ....Your point is true as to where the >> voltage is obtained by the Dynon. The shunt shows and + 0r negative >> amps. >> >> Closing the e-bus feed shorts past the e-bus diode so that you get full >> battery voltage to the Dynon (which I gather is connected to the e-bus). > > > Yes, and this has not been checked ...... will be doing that straight > away. >> >> >> Is 12.8V what is read with the engine running? > > > Only if the essential bus is closed and the master is opened.....Both > while the engine is running and just on battery!!! >> >> >> Is the LR3C installed in place of the Ford regulator? Yes. > > >> >> >> >> Sounds interesting.. >> >> Matt- >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > I am just about to put my RV7A in the air but....I have one minor >> problem >> > to solve. The Dynon EMS D-120 is not indicating TRUE voltage output >> both >> > with the engine in operation or when running on the battery. >> > >> > >> > >> > My electrical architecture is Z13/8 modified to have the B&C 40 amp >> > alternator regulated by LR3C-14. The amp/current pick off shunt is in >> > location A position as found in the Dynon EMS D-120 install manual >> page >> > 3.12. When the Master Battery/Main Alternator switch is actuated the >> Dynon >> > shows 10.8 volt. When the Essential bus is actuated the voltage climbs >> to >> > 12.8 with or without the Master on. >> > >> > Every possible connection point has had a continuity check/voltage >> check >> > completed. We have also followed the B & C LR3C-14 trouble shooting >> guide >> > which had no neitive results so the LR3C would SEEM to be OK . All >> grounds >> > have been checked for problems...one found. >> > >> > >> > >> > But all (except using B&C trouble shooting guide)roads seem to lead to >> a >> > bad LR3C-14.....but Bill at B&C thinks there has to be another >> > problem....................In short every connection up to the >> regulator >> > are 12.8 volts with the master on but once past the LR3C it read 10.8 >> at >> > the power pin location #1 on the D-Sub. This indicated two things the >> > problem is at the LR3C and the Dynon D120 is isolated showing it isn't >> the >> > problem.................... >> > >> > >> > >> > We know the altenators ..... both main and aux SD8 are doing there >> thing >> > because when we have ground run the engine the battery charge has been >> > maintained >> > >> > >> > >> > So where do I check next?????????????????????????????? >> > >> > >> > >> > Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... ready to fly?????maybe >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail. >> > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >> >> >> > =========== > =========== > =========== > =========== >> >> >> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live: Keep your life in sync. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009




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