Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:13 AM - Re: Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Etienne Phillips)
2. 05:27 AM - D.A.R question about fuse access (Vincent Himsl)
3. 06:41 AM - Suitable diode replacement (Bob Barrow)
4. 06:41 AM - Re: Re: Automotive blade fuses? ()
5. 06:41 AM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access (Matt Prather)
6. 07:18 AM - Re: Suitable diode replacement (Bob White)
7. 07:52 AM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 08:14 AM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access ()
9. 08:24 AM - Fluctuating Amps (Charles Brame)
10. 08:39 AM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access (Bret Smith)
11. 08:59 AM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access (Matt Prather)
12. 09:41 AM - Re: Suitable diode replacement (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 09:47 AM - Re: Fluctuating Amps (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 10:03 AM - Fun flying after the medical is gone? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 10:13 AM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access (Bob Collins)
16. 10:56 AM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access ()
17. 11:45 AM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access (Matt Prather)
18. 12:19 PM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (heisan)
19. 12:22 PM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access (thomas sargent)
20. 12:39 PM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
21. 12:40 PM - Re: Re: Automotive blade fuses? (thomas sargent)
22. 12:43 PM - Contacter, or not? (heisan)
23. 12:57 PM - Re: Contacter, or not? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
24. 01:04 PM - Re: Contacter, or not? (heisan)
25. 01:20 PM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access (Matt Prather)
26. 01:20 PM - Re: Automotive blade fuses? (Etienne Phillips)
27. 01:39 PM - Re: Re: Contacter, or not? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
28. 01:41 PM - Re: Contacter, or not? (Matt Prather)
29. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: Contacter, or not? (Matt Prather)
30. 01:50 PM - Re: Contacter, or not? (Phil Birkelbach)
31. 01:50 PM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
32. 01:55 PM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access (Phil Birkelbach)
33. 02:14 PM - Re: Contacter, or not? (heisan)
34. 02:42 PM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access ()
35. 03:14 PM - Re: Re: Automotive blade fuses? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
36. 03:41 PM - Re: D.A.R question about fuse access (BobsV35B@aol.com)
37. 04:21 PM - Re: Contacter, or not? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
38. 04:23 PM - Re: Re: Automotive blade fuses? (thomas sargent)
39. 04:52 PM - Re: Contacter, or not? (Matt Prather)
40. 07:23 PM - glass fuses (Rick and Sandra Lark)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive blade fuses? |
Hi Justin
They are available locally (as in Port Elizabeth) from Autozone... Not sure
where abouts you are, but autozone is a chain store of sorts, so you may
find them all over the country!
Etienne
2009/7/14 heisan <justin@expertron.co.za>
>
> Thanks everybody.
>
> When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers. Two A&Ps
> I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is
> difficult to make the pretty!
>
> Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use.
>
> Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders?
> Options here are few and far between.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252936#252936
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | D.A.R question about fuse access |
In planning the layout of your electrical system=2C I would suggest you pla
ce your fuse blocks where you can answer 'yes' to the following question fr
om a D.A.R:
"Are you able to change fuses for critical instruments in flight?" (or som
ething similar)
Fortunately one of my fuse blocks=2C the one with my critical instruments
=2C was within reach (under the panel) while in flight. Changing them in fl
ight would be painful but possible.
Before y'all blast off=2C realize the D.A.R is inspecting your airplane to
see if it complies with Federal Regulations. If he asks you a question it i
s because he believes he is required to.
And regardless our collective thoughts and feelings about the question=2C i
t is being asked.
I have been on this list for years so I guess I should have anticipated thi
s=2C but I have to admit the question caught me by surprise. I relay this s
o you are not.
Regards=2C
Vince_Himsl
RV8 N8432 Flying (10hours)
_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that=92s right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
Message 3
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| Subject: | Suitable diode replacement |
I have blown all 3 diodes on my S701-2 Cross Feed Contactor (through stupid
ity!!) on my 12 volt Z14 architecture. They are all of the type 1N5400 (3 a
mp 50 volt). I am having trouble getting replacements locally (Australia) f
or these specific diodes and I was wondering if I could replace them with t
he type 1N5404 (3 amp 400 volt) which is readily available.
One of 1N5400 diodes on the Cross Feed Contactor is obviously specifically
for voltage spike suppression across the contactor. I'm not sure whether th
e voltage rating (breakdown voltage for reverse current) on this diode in p
articular is actually an important factor for spike suppression or not.
I'd appreciate feedback from any guru out there.
_________________________________________________________________
View photos of singles in your area Click Here
http://dating.ninemsn.com.au/search/search.aspx?exec=go&tp=q&gc=2&tr
=1&lage=18&uage=55&cl=14&sl=0&dist=50&po=1&do=2&trackingid
=1046138&r2s=1&_t=773166090&_r=WLM_EndText
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive blade fuses? |
I've also seen these at Pep Boys if you're on the east coast.
Glenn
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Etienne Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 6:10 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Automotive blade fuses?
Hi Justin
They are available locally (as in Port Elizabeth) from Autozone... Not
sure where abouts you are, but autozone is a chain store of sorts, so
you may find them all over the country!
Etienne
2009/7/14 heisan <justin@expertron.co.za>
<justin@expertron.co.za>
Thanks everybody.
When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers. Two
A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it
is difficult to make the pretty!
Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use.
Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse
holders? Options here are few and far between.
Thanks,
Justin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252936#252936
h as List Un/Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: D.A.R question about fuse access |
Why did you design the airplane with any critical instruments? Good panel
design dictates that there aren't any.
It's a trick question.. Most certified single engine airplanes don't have
a backup vacuum source. Nor a backup electrical system.
An EFIS, a separate turn indicator, plus a (at least one of these having
internal/backup/battery power) GPS provide as much (more) useful,
overlapping information so that if any one item fails, you can still
maintain control of the airplane.
Changing fuses while in flight instead of maintaining positive control of
the airplane sounds dangerous.
Matt-
>
> In planning the layout of your electrical system, I would suggest you
> place your fuse blocks where you can answer 'yes' to the following
> question from a D.A.R:
>
> "Are you able to change fuses for critical instruments in flight?" (or
> something similar)
>
> Fortunately one of my fuse blocks, the one with my critical instruments,
> was within reach (under the panel) while in flight. Changing them in
> flight would be painful but possible.
>
> Before y'all blast off, realize the D.A.R is inspecting your airplane to
> see if it complies with Federal Regulations. If he asks you a question it
> is because he believes he is required to.
>
> And regardless our collective thoughts and feelings about the question, it
> is being asked.
>
> I have been on this list for years so I guess I should have anticipated
> this, but I have to admit the question caught me by surprise. I relay this
> so you are not.
>
> Regards,
> Vince_Himsl
> RV8 N8432 Flying (10hours)
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC thats right for you.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Suitable diode replacement |
Hi Bob,
The 1N5404 will work fine.
Bob W.
On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:25:52 +1000
Bob Barrow <bobbarrow10@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have blown all 3 diodes on my S701-2 Cross Feed Contactor (through stupidity!!)
on my 12 volt Z14 architecture. They are all of the type 1N5400 (3 amp 50
volt). I am having trouble getting replacements locally (Australia) for these
specific diodes and I was wondering if I could replace them with the type 1N5404
(3 amp 400 volt) which is readily available.
>
>
>
> One of 1N5400 diodes on the Cross Feed Contactor is obviously specifically for
voltage spike suppression across the contactor. I'm not sure whether the voltage
rating (breakdown voltage for reverse current) on this diode in particular
is actually an important factor for spike suppression or not.
>
>
>
> I'd appreciate feedback from any guru out there.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> View photos of singles in your area Click Here
> http://dating.ninemsn.com.au/search/search.aspx?exec=go&tp=q&gc=2&tr=1&lage=18&uage=55&cl=14&sl=0&dist=50&po=1&do=2&trackingid=1046138&r2s=1&_t=773166090&_r=WLM_EndText
--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
3.8 Hours Total Time and holding
Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: D.A.R question about fuse access |
At 07:25 AM 7/15/2009, you wrote:
>In planning the layout of your electrical system, I would suggest
>you place your fuse blocks where you can answer 'yes' to the
>following question from a D.A.R:
>
>"Are you able to change fuses for critical instruments in
>flight?" (or something similar)
This is a recurring concern that is lifted from
the FARS. In 99% of the cases where "critical"
is used in Part 23/25 it's referring to exploring
the limits of some performance characteristics
like load limits, single-engine handling qualities
in a twin engine airplane, c.g. limits, etc. etc.
In terms of criticality of electro-whizzies, the
FARS are not enlightening. I suggest this is because
while things like wing spars, engines and unstable
aerodynamics can get you killed, the manner in which
electrics affect the outcome of flight varies widely
based on mission, weather and pilot skills. The DAY
VFR J-3 has no critical electrics . . . in fact no
electrics at all. The LAIV-P that routinely bores
holes in crummy weather, at night and over mountains
is entirely another matter.
To begin, YOU need to assess criticality
of any particular piece of hardware based on how
YOU are going to use the airplane. Second, be
aware that there are many ways that piece of
equipment can quit working that DO NOT pop fuses
or breakers. The simple logic behind this assertion
suggests that spending any time locating fuses
for easy replacement adds no value to the finished
product. Finally, launching into the blue with
a willingness to become a systems failure diagnostician
and repair technician during a time when you really
NEED some particular piece of stuff to be working
comes with a high order of risk.
The obvious solution is to design the system for
FAILURE TOLERANCE . . . i.e. no matter what
circumstances for which you plan to use the airplane,
no single piece of necessary equipment is not
backed up, i.e. your airplane has no critical
systems.
>Fortunately one of my fuse blocks, the one with my critical
>instruments, was within reach (under the panel) while in flight.
>Changing them in flight would be painful but possible.
The best fix for this is move it where you
CAN'T reach it. The tendency to think in terms
of in-flight fuse replacement goes away and
thinking about failure tolerance replaces it.
. . . A good thing.
>Before y'all blast off, realize the D.A.R is inspecting your
>airplane to see if it complies with Federal Regulations. If he asks
>you a question it is because he believes he is required to.
If your talking about an owner built and maintained
airplane, there are no regulations that affect
configuration of the project. The only regulations
that apply to OBAM aircraft are OPERATIONAL concerns
rightfully levied because you must play
in the same sandbox with the big guys. While
operating in that environment, it should be
transparent to everyone else that you're in an
OBAM aircraft. You're behaviors and capabilities
need to be the same as everyone else while
seamlessly sharing the airspace.
>And regardless our collective thoughts and feelings about the
>question, it is being asked.
>
>I have been on this list for years so I guess I should have
>anticipated this, but I have to admit the question caught me by
>surprise. I relay this so you are not.
The answer for anyone who might exercise a
regulatory authority over your project is to
explain why none of the equipment items in your
airplane are ever "critical" to continued
flight or comfortable termination of flight.
This might be because for every situation in which
you use the airplane, it matters not if ANY electrical
item on the panel is working. Better yet, it
might be the case because you have a plan-b in
the hip pocket to deal with any failure of necessary
equipment.
Think of it like this: I've never owned an
airplane with an electrical system in it (Our
J-3 at 1K1 was not so blessed). Every time
I go fly, it's in a rented airplane. As I walk
up to that airplane, should I be ruminating on
service history for the alternator? Should I
check the logs for service difficulties? Do
I want to check the warranty date sticker on
the battery? With a rented airplane, there are
MANY issues that are out of my direct supervision
and control. THIS is why I have to rely on the
integrity and skill of the airplane's owner
to keep things up to snuff under the FARS. At
the same time, I always fly with this stuff
in my flight bag:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Vacination_for_Dark_Panel_Syndrom.pdf
So my personal assessment of criticality combined
with the manner in which I use airplanes allows
me to launch without concern for ANYTHING working
on the panel. It's my plan-B, plan-C, etc to
comfortably terminate the flight at airport of
intended destination irrespective of
whether or not the master switch is even turned
on. I don't care if it's a C150 or an A36. I'm
comfortable with NOT knowing if the electrical
systems is 100% to my satisfaction.
The mind set you need to adopt when dealing with
the "learned elite" of aviation is NOT to argue
with the applicability of any particular directives
handed down from on high. Smile and explain that
you've carefully thought through your system
configuration. It's designed with your skill
set and mission requirements in mind such that
no single piece of equipment is "critical". All
installed electro-whizzies are either (1) not necessary
for comfortable termination of any anticipated flight
or (2) backed up with totally independent capabilities.
If YOU understand what you've achieved based on your
planning and workmanship, then explaining it to
a skeptical/un-informed inquisitor is easier.
It's your confidence built upon understanding and
planning that drives risk down for YOUR use of THAT
airplane . . . NOT mindless adherence to vague, broad
brush directives from a policy and procedures manual
that doesn't apply to you anyhow.
See chapter 17 of the 'Connection and any number of
fuse/breaker/failure-tolerance discussions on the
List archives and on http://aeroelectric.com.
Understanding starts there. Confidence will follow.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | D.A.R question about fuse access |
Matt,
Ok, I have 3 EFIS displays, two alternators, two batteries & two
internal batteries within the EFIS's, a drop down panel to access all
fuses (within easy reach of the pilot) and a compliment of spare LED
fuses. I'm thinking of adding a PEZ like dispenser for fuses below my
seat with lighted push buttons with numbers so I can pop them on demand
like a soda machine.
So how should I respond to the DAR?
I totally agree, with one caveat - if you need to change fuses in
flight, be sure you have the autopilot turned on with the traffic alerts
turned on. If you're flying IFR you already have someone watching your
back for the 1 minute it takes. If you can't find the problem in 1
minute and it's not critical, fix it on the ground. Better yet, fly with
a buddy and make him/her perform the swap.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Prather
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D.A.R question about fuse access
<mprather@spro.net>
Why did you design the airplane with any critical instruments? Good
panel
design dictates that there aren't any.
It's a trick question.. Most certified single engine airplanes don't
have
a backup vacuum source. Nor a backup electrical system.
An EFIS, a separate turn indicator, plus a (at least one of these having
internal/backup/battery power) GPS provide as much (more) useful,
overlapping information so that if any one item fails, you can still
maintain control of the airplane.
Changing fuses while in flight instead of maintaining positive control
of
the airplane sounds dangerous.
Matt-
>
> In planning the layout of your electrical system, I would suggest you
> place your fuse blocks where you can answer 'yes' to the following
> question from a D.A.R:
>
> "Are you able to change fuses for critical instruments in flight?"
(or
> something similar)
>
> Fortunately one of my fuse blocks, the one with my critical
instruments,
> was within reach (under the panel) while in flight. Changing them in
> flight would be painful but possible.
>
> Before y'all blast off, realize the D.A.R is inspecting your airplane
to
> see if it complies with Federal Regulations. If he asks you a question
it
> is because he believes he is required to.
>
> And regardless our collective thoughts and feelings about the
question, it
> is being asked.
>
> I have been on this list for years so I guess I should have
anticipated
> this, but I have to admit the question caught me by surprise. I relay
this
> so you are not.
>
> Regards,
> Vince_Himsl
> RV8 N8432 Flying (10hours)
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that's right for you.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
Message 9
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| Subject: | Fluctuating Amps |
Bob, et. al.,
According to my MicroVision engine monitor, the amps on my RV-6 vary
almost constantly from "0" to around "17." A normal load should be
about "7." The voltage holds very steady at 13.8 monitored from my
essential bus, and all my avionics and other electrical equipment
seems to work as advertised. I have a B&C 60 amp alternator and a
generic Ford voltage regulator. The amperage is measured via a Hall
sensor on the main alternator feed line and I have not been able to
locate any loose wires or bad connections.
Any ideas of what the problem is? Is there an alternator or voltage
regulator failure in the offing?
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: D.A.R question about fuse access |
Well said!
Bret Smith
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D.A.R question about fuse access
At 07:25 AM 7/15/2009, you wrote:
In planning the layout of your electrical system, I would suggest
you place your fuse blocks where you can answer 'yes' to the following
question from a D.A.R:
"Are you able to change fuses for critical instruments in flight?"
(or something similar)
The obvious solution is to design the system for
FAILURE TOLERANCE . . . i.e. no matter what
circumstances for which you plan to use the airplane,
no single piece of necessary equipment is not
backed up, i.e. your airplane has no critical
systems.
Message 11
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| Subject: | D.A.R question about fuse access |
Depending on how the circuits are designed, it sounds like you're set for
most ops..
I like the AP idea. Arguably, an AP should be on any airplane used for
IFR. They are relatively cheap nowadays. What's the procedure if you
suspect the fuse for the AP blew?
What happens if you accidentally pull the wrong fuse? Do you lose another
piece of 'critical equipment'?
Matt-
>
> Matt,
>
> Ok, I have 3 EFIS displays, two alternators, two batteries & two
> internal batteries within the EFIS's, a drop down panel to access all
> fuses (within easy reach of the pilot) and a compliment of spare LED
> fuses. I'm thinking of adding a PEZ like dispenser for fuses below my
> seat with lighted push buttons with numbers so I can pop them on demand
> like a soda machine.
>
> So how should I respond to the DAR?
>
> I totally agree, with one caveat - if you need to change fuses in
> flight, be sure you have the autopilot turned on with the traffic alerts
> turned on. If you're flying IFR you already have someone watching your
> back for the 1 minute it takes. If you can't find the problem in 1
> minute and it's not critical, fix it on the ground. Better yet, fly with
> a buddy and make him/her perform the swap.
>
> Glenn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
> Prather
> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:35 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D.A.R question about fuse access
>
> <mprather@spro.net>
>
> Why did you design the airplane with any critical instruments? Good
> panel
> design dictates that there aren't any.
>
> It's a trick question.. Most certified single engine airplanes don't
> have
> a backup vacuum source. Nor a backup electrical system.
>
> An EFIS, a separate turn indicator, plus a (at least one of these having
> internal/backup/battery power) GPS provide as much (more) useful,
> overlapping information so that if any one item fails, you can still
> maintain control of the airplane.
>
> Changing fuses while in flight instead of maintaining positive control
> of
> the airplane sounds dangerous.
>
>
> Matt-
>
>>
>> In planning the layout of your electrical system, I would suggest you
>> place your fuse blocks where you can answer 'yes' to the following
>> question from a D.A.R:
>>
>> "Are you able to change fuses for critical instruments in flight?"
> (or
>> something similar)
>>
>> Fortunately one of my fuse blocks, the one with my critical
> instruments,
>> was within reach (under the panel) while in flight. Changing them in
>> flight would be painful but possible.
>>
>> Before y'all blast off, realize the D.A.R is inspecting your airplane
> to
>> see if it complies with Federal Regulations. If he asks you a question
> it
>> is because he believes he is required to.
>>
>> And regardless our collective thoughts and feelings about the
> question, it
>> is being asked.
>>
>> I have been on this list for years so I guess I should have
> anticipated
>> this, but I have to admit the question caught me by surprise. I relay
> this
>> so you are not.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Vince_Himsl
>> RV8 N8432 Flying (10hours)
>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that's right for you.
>> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
>
>
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Re: Suitable diode replacement |
>One of 1N5400 diodes on the Cross Feed Contactor is obviously
>specifically for voltage spike suppression across the contactor.
Actually, only ONE of the three is for coil spike
suppression. The other two are for power steering.
The idea is that one should be able to close the
contactor using power from either side of the system.
I.e. the powered side gets a contactor closed to
support the non-powered side.
As long as the diodes are rated at 50v or more,
ANY diode will work in these applications for
contactors. Higher current ratings are called
for with devices like the normal feed path for
the e-bus . . . which is not needed on Z-14
systems.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Fluctuating Amps |
At 10:20 AM 7/15/2009, you wrote:
>
>Bob, et. al.,
>
>According to my MicroVision engine monitor, the amps on my RV-6 vary
>almost constantly from "0" to around "17." A normal load should be
>about "7." The voltage holds very steady at 13.8 monitored from my
>essential bus, and all my avionics and other electrical equipment
>seems to work as advertised. I have a B&C 60 amp alternator and a
>generic Ford voltage regulator. The amperage is measured via a Hall
>sensor on the main alternator feed line and I have not been able to
>locate any loose wires or bad connections.
>
>Any ideas of what the problem is? Is there an alternator or voltage
>regulator failure in the offing?
The first thing to do is confirm the variability
of the display. If the voltage readings are steady
then the regulator is fine. I'd do a temporary
installation of another ammeter in the b-lead
to confirm the micro-vision system performance.
Alternatively, you could simply remove the current
sensor all together and quit worrying about it.
Ammeters are more useful as a diagnostic tool and
then only if they're know to be trustworthy. If
your voltage is stable under all system load
conditions, probability is that the ammeter
is flakey. Try taking the b-lead wire out of the
sensor and see if it's still bouncing around
with "zero" excitation.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 14
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| Subject: | Fun flying after the medical is gone? |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDbQ5xvsrIU
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 15
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| Subject: | D.A.R question about fuse access |
I wonder how a DAR would look upon Vertical Power. No fuses. You have a
control box in the panel that you can reset a "failed" circuit, but that's
it. There's no ability to "change fuses in flight".
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D.A.R question about fuse access
At 07:25 AM 7/15/2009, you wrote:
In planning the layout of your electrical system, I would suggest you place
your fuse blocks where you can answer 'yes' to the following question from a
D.A.R:
"Are you able to change fuses for critical instruments in flight?" (or
something similar)
This is a recurring concern that is lifted from
the FARS. In 99% of the cases where "critical"
is used in Part 23/25 it's referring to exploring
the limits of some performance characteristics
like load limits, single-engine handling qualities
in a twin engine airplane, c.g. limits, etc. etc.
In terms of criticality of electro-whizzies, the
FARS are not enlightening. I suggest this is because
while things like wing spars, engines and unstable
aerodynamics can get you killed, the manner in which
electrics affect the outcome of flight varies widely
based on mission, weather and pilot skills. The DAY
VFR J-3 has no critical electrics . . . in fact no
electrics at all. The LAIV-P that routinely bores
holes in crummy weather, at night and over mountains
is entirely another matter.
To begin, YOU need to assess criticality
of any particular piece of hardware based on how
YOU are going to use the airplane. Second, be
aware that there are many ways that piece of
equipment can quit working that DO NOT pop fuses
or breakers. The simple logic behind this assertion
suggests that spending any time locating fuses
for easy replacement adds no value to the finished
product. Finally, launching into the blue with
a willingness to become a systems failure diagnostician
and repair technician during a time when you really
NEED some particular piece of stuff to be working
comes with a high order of risk.
The obvious solution is to design the system for
FAILURE TOLERANCE . . . i.e. no matter what
circumstances for which you plan to use the airplane,
no single piece of necessary equipment is not
backed up, i.e. your airplane has no critical
systems.
Fortunately one of my fuse blocks, the one with my critical instruments, was
within reach (under the panel) while in flight. Changing them in flight
would be painful but possible.
The best fix for this is move it where you
CAN'T reach it. The tendency to think in terms
of in-flight fuse replacement goes away and
thinking about failure tolerance replaces it.
. . . A good thing.
Before y'all blast off, realize the D.A.R is inspecting your airplane to see
if it complies with Federal Regulations. If he asks you a question it is
because he believes he is required to.
If your talking about an owner built and maintained
airplane, there are no regulations that affect
configuration of the project. The only regulations
that apply to OBAM aircraft are OPERATIONAL concerns
rightfully levied because you must play
in the same sandbox with the big guys. While
operating in that environment, it should be
transparent to everyone else that you're in an
OBAM aircraft. You're behaviors and capabilities
need to be the same as everyone else while
seamlessly sharing the airspace.
And regardless our collective thoughts and feelings about the question, it
is being asked.
I have been on this list for years so I guess I should have anticipated
this, but I have to admit the question caught me by surprise. I relay this
so you are not.
The answer for anyone who might exercise a
regulatory authority over your project is to
explain why none of the equipment items in your
airplane are ever "critical" to continued
flight or comfortable termination of flight.
This might be because for every situation in which
you use the airplane, it matters not if ANY electrical
item on the panel is working. Better yet, it
might be the case because you have a plan-b in
the hip pocket to deal with any failure of necessary
equipment.
Think of it like this: I've never owned an
airplane with an electrical system in it (Our
J-3 at 1K1 was not so blessed). Every time
I go fly, it's in a rented airplane. As I walk
up to that airplane, should I be ruminating on
service history for the alternator? Should I
check the logs for service difficulties? Do
I want to check the warranty date sticker on
the battery? With a rented airplane, there are
MANY issues that are out of my direct supervision
and control. THIS is why I have to rely on the
integrity and skill of the airplane's owner
to keep things up to snuff under the FARS. At
the same time, I always fly with this stuff
in my flight bag:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Vacination_for_Dark_Panel_Syndrom.pdf
So my personal assessment of criticality combined
with the manner in which I use airplanes allows
me to launch without concern for ANYTHING working
on the panel. It's my plan-B, plan-C, etc to
comfortably terminate the flight at airport of
intended destination irrespective of
whether or not the master switch is even turned
on. I don't care if it's a C150 or an A36. I'm
comfortable with NOT knowing if the electrical
systems is 100% to my satisfaction.
The mind set you need to adopt when dealing with
the "learned elite" of aviation is NOT to argue
with the applicability of any particular directives
handed down from on high. Smile and explain that
you've carefully thought through your system
configuration. It's designed with your skill
set and mission requirements in mind such that
no single piece of equipment is "critical". All
installed electro-whizzies are either (1) not necessary
for comfortable termination of any anticipated flight
or (2) backed up with totally independent capabilities.
If YOU understand what you've achieved based on your
planning and workmanship, then explaining it to
a skeptical/un-informed inquisitor is easier.
It's your confidence built upon understanding and
planning that drives risk down for YOUR use of THAT
airplane . . . NOT mindless adherence to vague, broad
brush directives from a policy and procedures manual
that doesn't apply to you anyhow.
See chapter 17 of the 'Connection and any number of
fuse/breaker/failure-tolerance discussions on the
List archives and on http://aeroelectric.com <http://aeroelectric.com/> .
Understanding starts there. Confidence will follow.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | D.A.R question about fuse access |
Matt,
However silly it may appear I like the led approach to avoid choosing an
un-blown/wrong fuse. On my fuse buses, each fuse is additionally labeled
to assist in locating the right fuse. To me pulling the wrong fuse is no
worse than pulling a breaker accidentally. Turn off the affected device,
plug the fuse back in and re-start the device - don't do that again. I
have dual ignition with one side slaved to the second battery. The
engine will keep running no matter what breaker is pulled.
Since my AP is internal to the Dynon and runs on the Dynon network, it
will fly on battery for about an hour, thus giving me enough warning to
get down. If one has lots of blown fuses and has trouble picking the
right one, you either have a bigger issue or you're just really ignorant
about maintenance. Assuming only one is blown, let's fix it and maybe
avoid lots of headaches.
The nice thing about having internal batteries within the EFIS is that
nothing changes while you scurry to either change the fuse or land and
repair - even for the AP. If I couldn't isolate the problem by replacing
the fuse - I'd just land. Kind-o-like the ole' circuit breaker theory -
if it blows once you reset it. If it blows twice, you leave it.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Prather
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: D.A.R question about fuse access
<mprather@spro.net>
Depending on how the circuits are designed, it sounds like you're set
for
most ops..
I like the AP idea. Arguably, an AP should be on any airplane used for
IFR. They are relatively cheap nowadays. What's the procedure if you
suspect the fuse for the AP blew?
What happens if you accidentally pull the wrong fuse? Do you lose
another
piece of 'critical equipment'?
Matt-
>
> Matt,
>
> Ok, I have 3 EFIS displays, two alternators, two batteries & two
> internal batteries within the EFIS's, a drop down panel to access all
> fuses (within easy reach of the pilot) and a compliment of spare LED
> fuses. I'm thinking of adding a PEZ like dispenser for fuses below my
> seat with lighted push buttons with numbers so I can pop them on
demand
> like a soda machine.
>
> So how should I respond to the DAR?
>
> I totally agree, with one caveat - if you need to change fuses in
> flight, be sure you have the autopilot turned on with the traffic
alerts
> turned on. If you're flying IFR you already have someone watching your
> back for the 1 minute it takes. If you can't find the problem in 1
> minute and it's not critical, fix it on the ground. Better yet, fly
with
> a buddy and make him/her perform the swap.
>
> Glenn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Matt
> Prather
> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:35 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D.A.R question about fuse access
>
> <mprather@spro.net>
>
> Why did you design the airplane with any critical instruments? Good
> panel
> design dictates that there aren't any.
>
> It's a trick question.. Most certified single engine airplanes don't
> have
> a backup vacuum source. Nor a backup electrical system.
>
> An EFIS, a separate turn indicator, plus a (at least one of these
having
> internal/backup/battery power) GPS provide as much (more) useful,
> overlapping information so that if any one item fails, you can still
> maintain control of the airplane.
>
> Changing fuses while in flight instead of maintaining positive control
> of
> the airplane sounds dangerous.
>
>
> Matt-
>
>>
>> In planning the layout of your electrical system, I would suggest you
>> place your fuse blocks where you can answer 'yes' to the following
>> question from a D.A.R:
>>
>> "Are you able to change fuses for critical instruments in flight?"
> (or
>> something similar)
>>
>> Fortunately one of my fuse blocks, the one with my critical
> instruments,
>> was within reach (under the panel) while in flight. Changing them in
>> flight would be painful but possible.
>>
>> Before y'all blast off, realize the D.A.R is inspecting your airplane
> to
>> see if it complies with Federal Regulations. If he asks you a
question
> it
>> is because he believes he is required to.
>>
>> And regardless our collective thoughts and feelings about the
> question, it
>> is being asked.
>>
>> I have been on this list for years so I guess I should have
> anticipated
>> this, but I have to admit the question caught me by surprise. I relay
> this
>> so you are not.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Vince_Himsl
>> RV8 N8432 Flying (10hours)
>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that's right for you.
>> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | D.A.R question about fuse access |
Certainly there are situations where I might mess around with diagnostics
while in flight. Many a flight there's nothing better to do besides drone
on. Especially if it's severe-clear for the length of the mission. If
it's dark and/or stormy, I'd be much more reluctant to do anything besides
hunker down and continue the flight with what's left. In my limited
experience on the needles, distraction is something I don't need..
Out of curiosity, is the AP servo powered by the instrument or does it
have a separate power source?
Matt-
>
> Matt,
>
> However silly it may appear I like the led approach to avoid choosing an
> un-blown/wrong fuse. On my fuse buses, each fuse is additionally labeled
> to assist in locating the right fuse. To me pulling the wrong fuse is no
> worse than pulling a breaker accidentally. Turn off the affected device,
> plug the fuse back in and re-start the device - don't do that again. I
> have dual ignition with one side slaved to the second battery. The
> engine will keep running no matter what breaker is pulled.
>
> Since my AP is internal to the Dynon and runs on the Dynon network, it
> will fly on battery for about an hour, thus giving me enough warning to
> get down. If one has lots of blown fuses and has trouble picking the
> right one, you either have a bigger issue or you're just really ignorant
> about maintenance. Assuming only one is blown, let's fix it and maybe
> avoid lots of headaches.
>
> The nice thing about having internal batteries within the EFIS is that
> nothing changes while you scurry to either change the fuse or land and
> repair - even for the AP. If I couldn't isolate the problem by replacing
> the fuse - I'd just land. Kind-o-like the ole' circuit breaker theory -
> if it blows once you reset it. If it blows twice, you leave it.
>
> Glenn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
> Prather
> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 11:50 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: D.A.R question about fuse access
>
> <mprather@spro.net>
>
> Depending on how the circuits are designed, it sounds like you're set
> for
> most ops..
>
> I like the AP idea. Arguably, an AP should be on any airplane used for
> IFR. They are relatively cheap nowadays. What's the procedure if you
> suspect the fuse for the AP blew?
>
> What happens if you accidentally pull the wrong fuse? Do you lose
> another
> piece of 'critical equipment'?
>
>
> Matt-
>
>>
>> Matt,
>>
>> Ok, I have 3 EFIS displays, two alternators, two batteries & two
>> internal batteries within the EFIS's, a drop down panel to access all
>> fuses (within easy reach of the pilot) and a compliment of spare LED
>> fuses. I'm thinking of adding a PEZ like dispenser for fuses below my
>> seat with lighted push buttons with numbers so I can pop them on
> demand
>> like a soda machine.
>>
>> So how should I respond to the DAR?
>>
>> I totally agree, with one caveat - if you need to change fuses in
>> flight, be sure you have the autopilot turned on with the traffic
> alerts
>> turned on. If you're flying IFR you already have someone watching your
>> back for the 1 minute it takes. If you can't find the problem in 1
>> minute and it's not critical, fix it on the ground. Better yet, fly
> with
>> a buddy and make him/her perform the swap.
>>
>> Glenn
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Matt
>> Prather
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:35 AM
>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D.A.R question about fuse access
>>
>> <mprather@spro.net>
>>
>> Why did you design the airplane with any critical instruments? Good
>> panel
>> design dictates that there aren't any.
>>
>> It's a trick question.. Most certified single engine airplanes don't
>> have
>> a backup vacuum source. Nor a backup electrical system.
>>
>> An EFIS, a separate turn indicator, plus a (at least one of these
> having
>> internal/backup/battery power) GPS provide as much (more) useful,
>> overlapping information so that if any one item fails, you can still
>> maintain control of the airplane.
>>
>> Changing fuses while in flight instead of maintaining positive control
>> of
>> the airplane sounds dangerous.
>>
>>
>> Matt-
>>
>>>
>>> In planning the layout of your electrical system, I would suggest you
>>> place your fuse blocks where you can answer 'yes' to the following
>>> question from a D.A.R:
>>>
>>> "Are you able to change fuses for critical instruments in flight?"
>> (or
>>> something similar)
>>>
>>> Fortunately one of my fuse blocks, the one with my critical
>> instruments,
>>> was within reach (under the panel) while in flight. Changing them in
>>> flight would be painful but possible.
>>>
>>> Before y'all blast off, realize the D.A.R is inspecting your airplane
>> to
>>> see if it complies with Federal Regulations. If he asks you a
> question
>> it
>>> is because he believes he is required to.
>>>
>>> And regardless our collective thoughts and feelings about the
>> question, it
>>> is being asked.
>>>
>>> I have been on this list for years so I guess I should have
>> anticipated
>>> this, but I have to admit the question caught me by surprise. I relay
>> this
>>> so you are not.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Vince_Himsl
>>> RV8 N8432 Flying (10hours)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that's right for you.
>>> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive blade fuses? |
Thanks for all the info.
I will try AutoZone locally on Friday. If that doesn't work, I will order from
one of the on-line shops.
You guys in the USA really have it all!
Thanks,
Justin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253201#253201
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: D.A.R question about fuse access |
I'm confused by this thread. Are you telling me that the D.A.R. is going to
REQUIRE that my fuse block be accessible in flight? (Mine isn't.) Or are you
just telling me I need to have a rap prepared to respond to the question.
--
Tom Sargent
Message 20
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| Subject: | D.A.R question about fuse access |
DAR's sometimes have an "its my way or the highway" approach..But this is v
ery rare.
You just need to tell him there is no one fuse that will take out your abil
ity to fly or navigate..And you have no intention of changing fuses in flig
ht.
None of my 3 fuse boxes are accesible and the idea of changing a fuse while
being bounced around in IMC is ludicrous in my mind.
Frank RV7a IFR, elctric fuel pumps only, totally electrically dependant.
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas sargent
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D.A.R question about fuse access
I'm confused by this thread. Are you telling me that the D.A.R. is going t
o REQUIRE that my fuse block be accessible in flight? (Mine isn't.) Or are
you just telling me I need to have a rap prepared to respond to the questio
n.
--
Tom Sargent
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive blade fuses? |
Autozone has them, but only in values used commonly in cars. For your plane
you will need a lot of small values - 1 or 2 or 3 amps. I doubt you'll find
those at autozone or checker. B&C Specialty has them.
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 12:17 PM, heisan <justin@expertron.co.za> wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the info.
>
> I will try AutoZone locally on Friday. If that doesn't work, I will order
> from one of the on-line shops.
>
> You guys in the USA really have it all!
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
>
--
Tom Sargent
Message 22
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| Subject: | Contacter, or not? |
After all the great info and advice I got on the fuses, I thought I would try asking
about contacters too [Wink] .
The aircraft manufacturer, and the engine manual both give a wiring diagram that
does NOT include a master contacter. The battery positive goes directly to a
master switch, and then to the main bus.
This is the first time I have seen a configuration like this (without the contacter).
What are the advantages, and disadvantages of doing it this way? My maximum
current draw is around 10A, so well within the continuous current range
of a small toggle switch.
Thanks!
Justin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253209#253209
Message 23
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| Subject: | Contacter, or not? |
Where does the starter current go?..Usually it goes through the master contactor..You
won't be sending that kind of current through a normal toggle switch..well
more than once anyway...:)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of heisan
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:42 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Contacter, or not?
--> <justin@expertron.co.za>
After all the great info and advice I got on the fuses, I thought I would try asking
about contacters too [Wink] .
The aircraft manufacturer, and the engine manual both give a wiring diagram that
does NOT include a master contacter. The battery positive goes directly to a
master switch, and then to the main bus.
This is the first time I have seen a configuration like this (without the contacter).
What are the advantages, and disadvantages of doing it this way? My maximum
current draw is around 10A, so well within the continuous current range
of a small toggle switch.
Thanks!
Justin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253209#253209
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Contacter, or not? |
frank.hinde(at)hp.com wrote:
> Where does the starter current go?..Usually it goes through the master contactor..You
won't be sending that kind of current through a normal toggle switch..well
more than once anyway...:)
>
> --
Ah - forgot to mention - the starter has a built in solenoid.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253216#253216
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|
| Subject: | D.A.R question about fuse access |
I like this answer. I suspect that many DAR's will be happy that you have
a rational answer to such a question - indicating that you have considered
and understand the issues involved.
Regards,
Matt-
> DAR's sometimes have an "its my way or the highway" approach..But this is
> very rare.
>
> You just need to tell him there is no one fuse that will take out your
> ability to fly or navigate..And you have no intention of changing fuses in
> flight.
>
> None of my 3 fuse boxes are accesible and the idea of changing a fuse
> while being bounced around in IMC is ludicrous in my mind.
>
>
> Frank RV7a IFR, elctric fuel pumps only, totally electrically dependant.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas
> sargent
> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:19 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D.A.R question about fuse access
>
>
> I'm confused by this thread. Are you telling me that the D.A.R. is going
> to REQUIRE that my fuse block be accessible in flight? (Mine isn't.) Or
> are you just telling me I need to have a rap prepared to respond to the
> question.
>
>
> --
> Tom Sargent
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive blade fuses? |
Hi all
When I suggested Autozone, I was referring to Autozone South Africa,
not AutoZone USA. As Justin is a fellow Dark-Continent (Africa for
those who are not familiar with the expression) dweller, I can
appreciate the lack of local availability of certain seemingly easily
obtainable aviation bits and pieces, unless you're happy spending
8-10 times the items value in shipping.
I'm pretty sure the smaller values are available, and certainly any
cable fault will be able to pop a 5A fuse... If you want it to blow
at a lower value than that, then you'll probably find those fuses to
be a bit harder to find. But there's no reason you have to import the
fuse holder from the opposite side of the planet just because that's
where the fuses will eventually need to come from.
Etienne
:-)
On 15 Jul 2009, at 9:38 PM, thomas sargent wrote:
> Autozone has them, but only in values used commonly in cars. For
> your plane you will need a lot of small values - 1 or 2 or 3 amps.
> I doubt you'll find those at autozone or checker. B&C Specialty
> has them.
>
> On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 12:17 PM, heisan <justin@expertron.co.za>
> wrote:
> <justin@expertron.co.za>
>
> Thanks for all the info.
>
> I will try AutoZone locally on Friday. If that doesn't work, I
> will order from one of the on-line shops.
>
> You guys in the USA really have it all!
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
>
> --
> Tom Sargent
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Contacter, or not? |
So there is a separate cable that comes directly from the battery and goes to the
starter solenoid..I.e bypasses the switch?
The reason I ask is cus useually the starter cable goes through the master contactor,
then through the starter contactor then to the starter.
I.e the starter cable usually goes through the master...At least on "Proper" airplanes..:)
Sounds like you have an automotive setup?..You could also have a starter solenoid
with this setup if you are uncomfortable with the starter cable being permanently
hot.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of heisan
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 1:03 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Contacter, or not?
--> <justin@expertron.co.za>
frank.hinde(at)hp.com wrote:
> Where does the starter current go?..Usually it goes through the master
> contactor..You won't be sending that kind of current through a normal
> toggle switch..well more than once anyway...:)
>
> --
Ah - forgot to mention - the starter has a built in solenoid.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253216#253216
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| Subject: | Re: Contacter, or not? |
With a peak current demand of 10A, I think you have a few options..
- Use a small(er) relay mounted close (6") to the battery. Mount your
distribution bus anywhere you wish. This is basically a scaled-down
version of existing architectures and provides all of the normal Z
functionality. This is how my hand-started Varieze is setup.
- If your battery is located close to the pilot's seat, you may be able
to replace the battery relay with a manually operated battery switch.
Cable operated switches have been discussed here in the past.
- Use a battery bus mounted close to the battery. This is fine if you
don't care about being able to make the whole system "cold" with one
switch.
- Use an appropriately sized inline fuse to feed the battery to a bus
which is located elsewhere in the plane. This is probably OK if none of
the electrical equipment is "critical to continued flight".. Faulting
the fat feeder would cause it's protection to open up, causing all your
electrical stuff to go dark.
Using a relay of any type (esp a fat contactor) causes an extra load on
the electrical system. If your sole source of power is a small PM dynamo,
every watt starts to add up. Small relays only draw on the order of 100mA
- less than 1% of the B&C dynamo on my O-200 - an acceptable load..
Regards,
Matt-
<justin@expertron.co.za>
>
> After all the great info and advice I got on the fuses, I thought I
would
> try asking about contacters too [Wink] .
>
> The aircraft manufacturer, and the engine manual both give a wiring
diagram that does NOT include a master contacter. The battery positive
goes directly to a master switch, and then to the main bus.
>
> This is the first time I have seen a configuration like this (without
the
> contacter). What are the advantages, and disadvantages of doing it this
way? My maximum current draw is around 10A, so well within the
continuous
> current range of a small toggle switch.
>
> Thanks!
> Justin
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253209#253209
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Contacter, or not? |
If your battery is located any significant distance from your starter, you
need a heavy relay or heavy switch.. It's bad practice to have a long
unprotected cable in the airplane which can't otherwise be made cold (via
a switch or contactor).
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
> frank.hinde(at)hp.com wrote:
>> Where does the starter current go?..Usually it goes through the master
>> contactor..You won't be sending that kind of current through a normal
>> toggle switch..well more than once anyway...:)
>>
>> --
>
>
> Ah - forgot to mention - the starter has a built in solenoid.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253216#253216
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Contacter, or not? |
For only 10 Amps go with the switch. It takes almost an amp of
current to hold the master contactor closed so you'd be using ~10% of
your power just to keep the power on.
One advantage to a master contactor is that the big fat wire that
doesn't have a fuse on it can be very short. You can replicate this
for 10A with an automotive relay near the battery and a small wire
coming back to the switch, but that is one more thing that can fail.
If it were me, I'd probably just put a fusible link near the battery,
then run the wire from that to the switch and then to the main buss.
Simple is good!
Phil Birkelbach
Houston RV7 - 727WB
phil@petrasoft.net
http://www.myrv7.com/
On Jul 15, 2009, at 2:42 PM, heisan wrote:
> >
>
> After all the great info and advice I got on the fuses, I thought I
> would try asking about contacters too [Wink] .
>
> The aircraft manufacturer, and the engine manual both give a wiring
> diagram that does NOT include a master contacter. The battery
> positive goes directly to a master switch, and then to the main bus.
>
> This is the first time I have seen a configuration like this
> (without the contacter). What are the advantages, and disadvantages
> of doing it this way? My maximum current draw is around 10A, so
> well within the continuous current range of a small toggle switch.
>
> Thanks!
> Justin
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253209#253209
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | D.A.R question about fuse access |
At 11:39 AM 7/15/2009, you wrote:
>I wonder how a DAR would look upon Vertical Power. No fuses. You
>have a control box in the panel that you can reset a "failed"
>circuit, but that's it. There's no ability to "change fuses in flight".
. . . but you can 'reset' a tripped circuit under software
control. One of the BIG arguments for breakers over fuses
was the ease of resetting and low risk for dropping a fuse
holder's cap . . .
Emacs!
. . . not to mention relief from having to carry
spare fuses. The advantages are inarguable. Over the past
20+ years we've developed various tools for fault current
protection including remotely controlled circuit breakers
and sundry electronic fault detection and reaction systems.
The Eclipse 500 had no breakers in the cockpit but pilots
had access to LOTS of breakers via flat screens and
software.
But getting back to simple ideas: Fuses/breakers/other are
intended to protect the airframe from hard faults that put
other systems if not the entire airframe at risk. Once
that fault occurs, the system is out of business. It's
a good idea to make the event known to the crew . . . but
resetting is 99.99% never useful or a good idea. It was
reported that repeated resets of the cabin heater breaker
on an airplane carrying Ricky Nelson may have figured in
the fire that brought the airplane down.
The prudent rule for tripped breakers and fuses (that are
sized to avoid nuisance trips) is leave them alone until on
the ground. Should it be that said breaker powers something
you really need . . . then so much for failure tolerance
(or perhaps even the decision to launch).
From my personal sense of elegant solutions, the idea
that replacing a perfectly good 25 cent fuse with hardware
that is larger, more expensive, higher parts count, and
perhaps driven by software does not make the airplane
cost less, assemble faster or perform better . . .
nor is it a positive return on investment.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: D.A.R question about fuse access |
I can't reach any of my fuses in flight. I did this by design. I
don't want to be tempted to fiddle with them. There isn't anything in
my panel (VFR day/night) that will kill me if it fails, but fiddling
with fuses when I should be flying the airplane can kill me.
My DAR didn't ask. Some might. Just answer that there isn't any
electrical circuit in your airplane that you can't LIVE without. If he/
she has a problem with that answer then make sure and warn your fellow
builders about that DAR so that he/she may be avoided.
Phil Birkelbach
Houston RV7 - 727WB
phil@petrasoft.net
http://www.myrv7.com/
On Jul 15, 2009, at 2:19 PM, thomas sargent wrote:
>
> I'm confused by this thread. Are you telling me that the D.A.R. is
> going to REQUIRE that my fuse block be accessible in flight? (Mine
> isn't.) Or are you just telling me I need to have a rap prepared to
> respond to the question.
>
>
> --
> Tom Sargent
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Contacter, or not? |
The battery is mounted around 12" from the starter, and 20" from the panel. All
'heavy' current wires are fairly short.
I really like the idea of making it as simple as possible. Added complexity just
means extra failure points.
I will definitely go for a fusible link and a switch.
Thanks for the info.
Justin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253233#253233
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| Subject: | D.A.R question about fuse access |
Tom,
Absolutely not. You will find 100's of units with fuse blocks in very
un-reachable positions. Do a little searching on Google. Remember, we
are experimental - use poly fuses, fuse links or whatever you like. What
folks are saying is that should any individual component be lost, be
sure you can do without it (yes, Mr./Ms. DAR I can do without that).
Period. Most prefer not trying to fix the broken thingy in flight, but
rather get it down and tend to it on the ground. As Bob indicated failed
items most often have nothing to do with the fuse/breaker.
Stick and rudder folks know you really only need an airspeed indicator
to get down safely in VFR. Make it a good one.
Fuses are great and certainly reduce the owner's cost. I do like having
breakers on my alternators to kill them if necessary. There again if the
alternator breaker is popping for any reason than the occasional power
surge, just leave it out and get down until fixed.
Glenn
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil
Birkelbach
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D.A.R question about fuse access
I can't reach any of my fuses in flight. I did this by design. I don't
want to be tempted to fiddle with them. There isn't anything in my
panel (VFR day/night) that will kill me if it fails, but fiddling with
fuses when I should be flying the airplane can kill me.
My DAR didn't ask. Some might. Just answer that there isn't any
electrical circuit in your airplane that you can't LIVE without. If
he/she has a problem with that answer then make sure and warn your
fellow builders about that DAR so that he/she may be avoided.
Phil Birkelbach
Houston RV7 - 727WB
phil@petrasoft.net
http://www.myrv7.com/
On Jul 15, 2009, at 2:19 PM, thomas sargent wrote:
I'm confused by this thread. Are you telling me that the D.A.R. is
going to REQUIRE that my fuse block be accessible in flight? (Mine
isn't.) Or are you just telling me I need to have a rap prepared to
respond to the question.
--
Tom Sargent
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.
m
atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
o
ntribution
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive blade fuses? |
Good Evening Sarge,
Do we really need fuses of that low an amperage?
Seems to me that what we need to protect are the wires. Unless you have
awfully small diameter wires, five amp should be as small as you need. Five
amp will protect a number twenty-two wire. That is as small as I ever use!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 7/15/2009 2:42:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
sarg314@gmail.com writes:
Autozone has them, but only in values used commonly in cars. For your
plane you will need a lot of small values - 1 or 2 or 3 amps. I doubt you'll
find those at autozone or checker. B&C Specialty has them.
**************Can love help you live longer? Find out now.
(http://personals.aol.com/articles/2009/02/18/longer-lives-through-relationships/?ncid=emlweu
slove00000001)
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: D.A.R question about fuse access |
Good Evening Glenn,
My primary instructor kept the airspeed covered up most of the time. I
learned to control airspeed via the sound and by the feel of the controls.
Who needs an airspeed indicator?<G>
I may not be able to hold it dead on a specific number, but I can sure stay
fast enough to avoid a stall and slow enough to get it stopped in a
reasonable distance!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 7/15/2009 4:43:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
longg@pjm.com writes:
Stick and rudder folks know you really only need an airspeed indicator to
get down safely in VFR. Make it a good one.
**************Can love help you live longer? Find out now.
(http://personals.aol.com/articles/2009/02/18/longer-lives-through-relationships/?ncid=emlweu
slove00000001)
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Contacter, or not? |
At 02:42 PM 7/15/2009, you wrote:
>
>After all the great info and advice I got on the fuses, I thought I
>would try asking about contacters too [Wink] .
>
>The aircraft manufacturer, and the engine manual both give a wiring
>diagram that does NOT include a master contacter. The battery
>positive goes directly to a master switch, and then to the main bus.
>
>This is the first time I have seen a configuration like this
>(without the contacter). What are the advantages, and disadvantages
>of doing it this way? My maximum current draw is around 10A, so
>well within the continuous current range of a small toggle switch.
The legacy design goal for a battery master
disconnect is to provide a means by which nearly
all wiring in the airplane is 'cold' when the
disconnect is open. If the battery is conveniently
located then some form of manual switch can be
considered. Perhaps like this?
Emacs!
Emacs!
The next reason for a battery master disconnect is
to provide a means by which the battery can be
shut off if the starter contactor (solenoid)
sticks.
If the battery master cannot positioned conveniently
for manual operation, then perhaps a contactor is
indicated. These can be low power devices like the
EV series devices from TYCO . . . but it's pretty
easy to make an el-cheeso contactor emulate the
low power characteristics of the TYCO device.
Finally, a couple of guys on the list were working
on versions of remotely controlled, manual switches
like this:
http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9042/9042-100.pdf
In any case, there's two good reasons for a battery
master disconnect. The style is up to you as is
the choice for installing one.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive blade fuses? |
Well, yes, protecting the wire is the main task of the fuse. But If I have
a device that I know should only use a fraction of an amp (my avionics
cooling fan for example) and it starts drawing 2 amps, there's probably
something seriously wrong with it. It will be toast long before the #22
wire (or a 5 amp fuse) ever burns up. The little thing could melt itself on
2 measly amps. So I put a 2 amp fuse on it. That still protects the wire
and will keep the smoke level down in the cockpit. The fan is probably dead
either way.
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:11 PM, <BobsV35B@aol.com> wrote:
> Good Evening Sarge,
>
> Do we really need fuses of that low an amperage?
>
> Seems to me that what we need to protect are the wires. Unless you have
> awfully small diameter wires, five amp should be as small as you need. Five
> amp will protect a number twenty-two wire. That is as small as I ever use!
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> In a message dated 7/15/2009 2:42:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> sarg314@gmail.com writes:
>
> Autozone has them, but only in values used commonly in cars. For your
> plane you will need a lot of small values - 1 or 2 or 3 amps. I doubt
> you'll find those at autozone or checker. B&C Specialty has them.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
--
Tom Sargent
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Contacter, or not? |
Bob,
Your comments gave me another idea.. If you only have 12-14A to play with
(little dynamo), and the airplane has a starter.. And your normal running
power budget is a fairly high percentage of the output of the dynamo..
One could install a battery contactor (or starter relay) just for running
the starter - in series with any starter/engine mounted relay/solenoid.
Once the engine is running, the current draw from the monster contactor
can be eliminated and you can drop back to a more power-frugal relay for
driving the rest of the electronics on the airplane - a relay installed in
parallel. I can't think of any downside.
Regards,
Matt-
> At 02:42 PM 7/15/2009, you wrote:
>> <justin@expertron.co.za>
>>
>>After all the great info and advice I got on the fuses, I thought I
>>would try asking about contacters too [Wink] .
>>
>>The aircraft manufacturer, and the engine manual both give a wiring
>>diagram that does NOT include a master contacter. The battery
>>positive goes directly to a master switch, and then to the main bus.
>>
>>This is the first time I have seen a configuration like this
>>(without the contacter). What are the advantages, and disadvantages
>>of doing it this way? My maximum current draw is around 10A, so
>>well within the continuous current range of a small toggle switch.
>
> The legacy design goal for a battery master
> disconnect is to provide a means by which nearly
> all wiring in the airplane is 'cold' when the
> disconnect is open. If the battery is conveniently
> located then some form of manual switch can be
> considered. Perhaps like this?
>
> Emacs!
>
> Emacs!
>
>
> The next reason for a battery master disconnect is
> to provide a means by which the battery can be
> shut off if the starter contactor (solenoid)
> sticks.
>
> If the battery master cannot positioned conveniently
> for manual operation, then perhaps a contactor is
> indicated. These can be low power devices like the
> EV series devices from TYCO . . . but it's pretty
> easy to make an el-cheeso contactor emulate the
> low power characteristics of the TYCO device.
>
> Finally, a couple of guys on the list were working
> on versions of remotely controlled, manual switches
> like this:
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9042/9042-100.pdf
>
> In any case, there's two good reasons for a battery
> master disconnect. The style is up to you as is
> the choice for installing one.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ---------------------------------------
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ---------------------------------------
>
>
Message 40
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|
That is really what you should be using (is ATO blade type fuses) over
the
>glass fuses. From our experience, using glass fuses has many negatives
and
>they aren't something we'd really recommend for airplanes anymore.
Bob> Absolutely! These have fragile internal connections at
the ends of the fusible links . . . they also used large
area, low pressure connections in their holders. Not
gas-tight.
Hi all: 1st time posting to this list.
Years ago I owned a "75 Celica GT that had an electric fuel pump. The
car kept quitting for no apparent reason (usually when my girlfriend
drove it). Ended up my favorite auto mechanic found the fuse end cap
was loose that fed the fuel pump. There is no way I would use glass
fuses for anything in an aircraft.
Regards
Rick Lark
Southampton, Ont
RV10
#40956
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