---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/31/09: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:54 AM - Re: Z-31A question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 08:10 AM - Re: No Sidetone (David & Elaine Lamphere) 3. 09:15 AM - Re: Re: Switch Failures (Jerry Isler) 4. 10:11 AM - Re: Z-20: Fuse Links, Master Switch, Alt OV Disc. and OVM (messydeer) 5. 10:27 AM - Re: Z-20: Fuse Links, Master Switch, Alt OV Disc. and OVM (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: Z-20: Fuse Links, Master Switch, Alt OV Disc. and OVM (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 11:09 AM - Re: Re: Switch Failures (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 11:24 AM - Re: Re: Switch Failures (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 12:03 PM - AEC9011 (messydeer) 10. 12:14 PM - Re: ROCHESTER FUEL LEVEL INDICATOR WIRING (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 12:43 PM - Re: Crossfeed (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 02:58 PM - Re: Z-31A question (johngoodman) 13. 03:27 PM - Re: AEC9011 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 05:42 PM - Re: AEC9011 (messydeer) 15. 06:19 PM - Re: Re: Switch Failures (Dave Gribble) 16. 06:47 PM - Re: "Emacs!" (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 06:47 PM - testing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 06:57 PM - Re: Re: Switch Failures (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: AEC9011 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 09:10 PM - Re: "Emacs!" (Bob White) 21. 09:20 PM - Re: Re: Switch Failures (Dave Gribble) 22. 09:43 PM - Re: AEC9011 (messydeer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:18 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-31A question At 09:59 AM 7/30/2009, you wrote: > > >Bob, >Z-31A is for a Military Style Ground Power Jack. I understand the >diode and OVM-14 on the Ground Power Contactor, but is the >diode/jumper necessary on the Existing Battery Contactor? Yes. The jumper turns the 4-terminal contactor into a 3-terminal contactor. The diode or other transient trapper across the coil is always a good idea too. >Also, when do you think you will be filling existing orders for OVM-14s? Our shops look like a train-wreck right now. I cleared some space on a table yesterday and put a bunch of OVM-14s together and filled all existing orders. Also put a few on the shelf. If you had one on order, you should have received the e-mail notices from the credit card company and a packing list from the 'Connection. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:52 AM PST US From: "David & Elaine Lamphere" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: No Sidetone Just a follow-up.. The problem turned out to be the sidetone adjustment pot was turned all the way down by some previous owner (or the factory). This is accessable through a hole labeled "sidetone" in the radio case (covered by a small aluminum tape dot). Being careful to ground myself before touching, I turned it to halfway. Upon re-insttalling and trying it out, I could hear myself clearly when transmitting. While there were no repsonses about this post, I think someone else might benefit from what I found. Dave L. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David & Elaine Lamphere" Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 9:17 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: No Sidetone >I have an interesting problem with my newly installed King KX125. > > While everything seems to be working correctly and I am clearly received > when I transmit, there is no sidetone during transmission (I do not hear > myself in the head set). I have eliminated the intercom completely, using > an > older handheld mike and phones only - same symptoms - rx clear, tx clear, > no > sidetone. Could it be that I have not installed some jumper not shown?? Or > is there a pot somewhere I need to tweek? > > I have attached the section of the schematic that pertains to this. > > I do not have any connections to pin 501-16 nor do I have a switch on the > mike jack as shown. > > The applicable notes refer to switching 100-H to 501-16 and opening up > 100-8 > to prevent your audio from being transmitted. > > Any clues or hints as to what I have missed doing?? > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:02 AM PST US From: "Jerry Isler" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch Failures Bob, While on the subject of switches, what's up with the AD on Beechcraft switches? My local FBO has 3 or 4 Bonanzas and a couple of Barons in the shop to replace all the switches on the panels. They told me the switches were about $130 each (cost!!!!) plus several hours labor to install. I cannot imagine charging that much for a switch. Jerry Isler RV4 N455J ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:11:14 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-20: Fuse Links, Master Switch, Alt OV Disc. and OVM From: "messydeer" > 18awg and 16awg Fuse Link to Starter Contactor > > On Z-20, connecting to the starter contactor is a 14awg wire from the Alt OV disconnect relay that has an 18awg fuse link inline with it. Although it meets the criterion of being 2 steps smaller than the 14awg, it also say to contact Bob about making them any bigger than with a 22awg line (protececting 18awg). Same issue occurs above this in the diagram with a 16awg fuse link called out to protect the 12awg master power line. > > Are these fuse links of a different type? On the diagram, it says to refer to Note 4, which doesn't shed any light on this issue. Also, B & C sells FLK-2 Fusible Link Kit, 20-16 AWG, but in their instructions, they likewise say use this method for 20 and 18 awg, no larger? http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Fuselink.pdf Another Way to Skin a Cat Instead of using a fusible link, it looks like an inline fuse with a fuse holder could be used: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=34954 In this post, Bob says to use MAXI fuses instead of ATC fuses to protect the alternator. I'm guessing this was either because ATC didn't offer them in a large enough size, or because the MAXI line was more dependable for this application. The ATC spec page http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/ATC_Specs.pdf shows a 25A fuse (the size Bob said would work for a 20A alternator, I believe) and a holder that would work up to 24A continuous. The MAXI spec page http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/MAXI_Specs.pdf shows only 20A and 30A without a 25A fuse. So how should I protect my 20A Jabiru PM alternator? Fusible link, 25A ATC fuse and holder, or 30A MAXI fuse and holder? > DC Master Power Switch (S1) Bob answered my questions about this in 2007: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=21238 Thanks, Dan -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255386#255386 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:27:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-20: Fuse Links, Master Switch, Alt OV Disc. and OVM At 07:41 PM 7/29/2009, you wrote: Hello :-) First, thanks to Bob his dedication to helping build dependable electronic systems for homebuilts. I am building a Sonex powered by a Jabiru 3300. I've read through the book and have some questions below. Unless noted otherwise, I am referring directly to your Z-20 diagram. 18awg and 16awg Fuse Link to Starter Contactor On Z-20, connecting to the starter contactor is a 14awg wire from the Alt OV disconnect relay that has an 18awg fuse link inline with it. Although it meets the criterion of being 2 steps smaller than the 14awg, it also say to contact Bob about making them any bigger than with a 22awg line (protececting 18awg). Same issue occurs above this in the diagram with a 16awg fuse link called out to protect the 12awg master power line. Fusible links called out in the Z-figures have been evaluated for appropriate application of this protection philosophy. Use in OTHER places should be discussed before proceeding. Consider that fusible links fall in the same protection category as ROBUST device (ANL, MANL, etc. current limiters). Are these fuse links of a different type? On the diagram, it says to refer to Note 4, which doesn't shed any light on this issue. No, a fusible link can be crafted from wire that is 4AWG or more wire steps SMALLER than the wire being protected. Note that fusible links called upon to do their job will burn. The legacy design goal for TC aircraft (and I presume automobiles) is that in the rare but stressful situation that might open that protection, the designer installs them such that damage to adjacent wires is minimized (fiberglas sleeving over wire) and what ever smoke is expected will be minimized (keep link on the order of 6" and out of the cockpit). DC Master Power Switch (S1) "Up" (keyway) position: As I understand it, the 2-10 switch is a 3-position dpdt switch. The top position (oriented according to the diagram) would connect terminal 2 to 1, connecting the main power distribution bus to the battery via a starter contactor terminal. At the same time, terminal 5 would connect to 4, where it connects both to the crowbar OVM and the alternator OV disconnect relay, and if then eventually, if all is well in the world, to the PM alternator. This would be the 'normal' position for regular flying, right? Down is all power OFF. Mid position is intended to bring the battery only on line. The up position adds the engine driven power source. Full up (both sources on) is the normal position for flight. "Center" position: Toggling the switch to the center position would still connect terminal 2 to 1 (I had originally thought it made it open), and terminal 5 goes to 6, disconnecting the OVM and cutting power to the alt OV disconnect relay. The alt OV disconnect magnetic field collapses, causing the NO switch to move to the NC position. Moving the toggle to the center position manually takes the alternator offline. yes "Down" (opposite) position: Moving this switch to the down (opposite) position disconnects terminal 2, cutting off the connection to the battery. And terminal 5 is the same as the 'center' position, disconnecting the alternator. yes. this is explained in the section on switches where the functionality of progressive transfer switches is discussed. ALT 5A Fuse: Current will flow through the 22awg wire between terminals 2 and 5 only when the switch is in the "Up" (keyway) position, i.e. both the alternator and battery are online. The fuse will blow when more than 5A passes through it, caused by an overvoltage condition. OV conditions DO NOT increase current demands expected to open ANY STYLE of circuit protection. Fuses and breakers protect wires. OV conditions are managed by millisecond-fast detection devices specific to the task of taking an alternator off line. But if there is an OV condition, wouldn't the crowbar OVM take the alternator offline? Is this just redundancy, or am I missing something? Maybe so when the OV condition returns to normal it will keep the alternator permanently offline, instead of going off and on and off, etc, caused by the crowbar OVM cycling off and on? Yes, ALL ov protection devices qualified for aviation are latching. I.e., when an ov condition is detected, the alternator shuts down and stays down. Keep in mind that the condition immediately following an OV trip is a LOW VOLTS situation that should cause your LV warning system to become active. Crowbar OVM In Z-20, the crowbar OVM is shown sharing terminal 4 of the master power switch with the line to the alternator. For me, the crowbar OVM is a black box. All I need to understand is what the 'net' function of it is. When it senses a voltage above a certain value, does it allow a current path to be completed through it to the panel ground? If so, then there would be no current going to the alt OV disconnect relay, which would then take the alternator offline. Is that how it works? Yup, it opens the UPSTREAM circuit protection (in this case a circuit breaker) thus latching the alternator OFF. Alternator OV Disconnect Relay Am I right in assuming that in the normal engine operation with the power master switch in the 'up' position, the power is applied through the switch to the alternator OV disconnect relay, whose magnetic field then pulls down the alt OV switch from the N.C. position to the N.O. position? That had me confused at first, cuz I figured 'normal' operation is when both the alternator and battery are connected. I think I can interpret 'Normally Open, Normally Closed' as being the 'unenergized' switch position, right? Yes, this is a vernacular common to relay-speak since about day-one. Further, you may find the "COM", "NO" and "NC" nomenclature molded into the plastic housing of the relay. See . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/Plastic_Relay_2.jpg Dynamo, aka PM Alternator Z-20 shows just two wire coming off the alternator. One connects to the voltage regulator at terminal 3, the other at terminal 1. There is also a tach signal wire spliced into the terminal 1 wire. So both of these wires are carrying current generated by the alternator to the voltage regulator? If so, why have two leads instead of one, and shouldn't there be a ground someplace? The Dynamo is an AC power generating device that needs both leads brought out to a rectifier/regulator for conversion and management. The classic "alternator" has the rectifiers built in and usually take power (-) to case ground thus eliminating the need for one of the power output wires. Capacitor Is the capicitor after the regulator for filtering out noise to the radio? I know of someone who wired according to Z-20, but left out the capacitor. I'm not sure why. The capacitor reduces alternator noise an enhances alternator stability during battery-off operations (contactor failed). If left off, you're not likely to notice the difference for 99.9% of your operations. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:39 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-20: Fuse Links, Master Switch, Alt OV Disc. and OVM At 12:09 PM 7/31/2009, you wrote: > > > > 18awg and 16awg Fuse Link to Starter Contactor > > > > On Z-20, connecting to the starter contactor is a 14awg wire from > the Alt OV disconnect relay that has an 18awg fuse link inline with > it. Although it meets the criterion of being 2 steps smaller than > the 14awg, it also say to contact Bob about making them any bigger > than with a 22awg line (protececting 18awg). Same issue occurs > above this in the diagram with a 16awg fuse link called out to > protect the 12awg master power line. > > > > Are these fuse links of a different type? On the diagram, it says > to refer to Note 4, which doesn't shed any light on this issue. > > >Also, B & C sells FLK-2 Fusible Link Kit, 20-16 AWG, but in their >instructions, they likewise say use this method for 20 and 18 awg, no larger? > >http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Fuselink.pdf > >Another Way to Skin a Cat > >Instead of using a fusible link, it looks like an inline fuse with a >fuse holder could be used: >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=34954 In this post, Bob >says to use MAXI fuses instead of ATC fuses to protect the >alternator. I'm guessing this was either because ATC didn't offer >them in a large enough size, or because the MAXI line was more >dependable for this application. > >The ATC spec page >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/ATC_Specs.pdf >shows a 25A fuse (the size Bob said would work for a 20A alternator, >I believe) and a holder that would work up to 24A continuous. > >The MAXI spec page >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/MAXI_Specs.pdf >shows only 20A and 30A without a 25A fuse. > >So how should I protect my 20A Jabiru PM alternator? Fusible link, >25A ATC fuse and holder, or 30A MAXI fuse and holder? Any way you wish. All of the processes you mentioned are suited for PROTECTING THE WIRE between the bus and the alternator's rectifier/regulator. The Z-20 data is but one recipe for success that will perform as advertised. There are many variations on a theme for protection of wires which are interchangeable if exercised with understanding about how the ingredient substitution is expected to perform. The plastic fuses would be fine too. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch Failures At 11:13 AM 7/31/2009, you wrote: > > >Bob, > >While on the subject of switches, what's up with the AD on >Beechcraft switches? My local FBO has 3 or 4 Bonanzas and a couple >of Barons in the shop to replace all the switches on the panels. >They told me the switches were about $130 each (cost!!!!) plus >several hours labor to install. I cannot imagine charging that much >for a switch. Gee . . . ONLY $130? It has to be because the volume in sales is up. While I was still at HBC, I seem to recall a price of $175 each. The device in question is a breaker-switch . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/W31_3.jpg . . . where robustness of the braided copper jumper wire is not meeting design goals. If the "added insulator" is not present, jumper failure causes load current to flow through the contact-spreading spring. IF the switch is used in a high current application (prop de-ice, pitot heat) then the spring smokes and folks get upset. Problem is similar to the AD being discussed on the Cessna switches. The Bonanzas and Barons total about 80,000 switches in the field. The Cessna situation is probably much larger. This is a great example of what happens when one discovers a failure to meet design goals in a legacy product with huge numbers. The only folks upset about it are the aircraft owners. The FBO can sympathize but he cannot do anything practical. Cessna and Beech can't do anything practical either. First, it's unlikely that they have anyone on their staff that truly understands root causes for the problems. Second, practical fixes require properly approved kits with staggering costs and time-to-market issues driven by bureaucracy and corporate policy/procedure albatrosses. So, what's the easy fix? AD the critters, spread the costs around the fleet owners. But make sure the work is accomplished only by qualified technicians at FBO standard rates. The type certificated light airplane market is sinking ever lower in the FAA/ISO tarpits. While at Cessna in 1965 or so, we broke 10,000 airplanes per year production. It's never been that high since and the trends are going down. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:24 AM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch Failures Buy one switch then search heavan and earth to find the supplier and buy direct from them..then hand them to the A&P..Got to be worth a shot..Gee! Frank...Thankfully experimental! Bob, While on the subject of switches, what's up with the AD on Beechcraft switches? My local FBO has 3 or 4 Bonanzas and a couple of Barons in the shop to replace all the switches on the panels. They told me the switches were about $130 each (cost!!!!) plus several hours labor to install. I cannot imagine charging that much for a switch. Jerry Isler RV4 N455J ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:27 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: AEC9011 From: "messydeer" Thanks, Bob, for answering my questions on the other thread :-) Sifting through the forum archives, I see you have mentioned a replacement for the AEC9005-101 LV monitor module, http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf ,which shows the new product. When will the 9011 become available? Looks like it would replace the S704-1 alternator disconnect and AEC9005-101 LV monitor module. The alternator disconnect portion of the drawing shows a slightly different alternator disconnect, the AEC9011-110-1. It says 'arc suppression' and has a resistor and capacitor added. What are the pros and cons of these pieces? If I then wanted to leave of the resistor and capacitor, could I simply modify the 9011? Thanks, Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255399#255399 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:57 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ROCHESTER FUEL LEVEL INDICATOR WIRING At 05:28 PM 7/28/2009, you wrote: > >The indicator has 3 posts on the back marked SEN, middle not marked >and IGN which goes to which.Didn't want to fry anything. Cheers Alan Best guess is that IGN goes to your fuel gages breaker/fuse. SEN goes to the tank sender. The unmarked goes to ground. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:15 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crossfeed At 10:32 AM 7/27/2009, you wrote: >I have an all electric plane and have attempted to emulate Z19-RB. > >Both batteries are the same size, but I am intending on starting on >the main battery only. My alternator-out load analysis shows around >17 amps to keep it in the air, though I think I can drop that to 10. Okay, what are your design goals for battery only endurance? >The "keep the engine running" components may run off either bus, but >the endurance bus is just connected to the main. > >Could I install a crossfeed switch between the main and engine >batteries, without a contactor? Obviously, yes. But 30A always hot wires to a panel mounted switch? You're stacking lots of switches and options together that PRESUMES you'll be making good and useful decisions when things aren't going right. You also appear to be stacking multiple failures onto a single tank full of gas. > It would allow me to use the engine battery for the endurance > bus, to supplement the main battery. That would also allow me to > simultaneously charge both batteries without engaging the engine > battery contactor. Hmmmm . . . the whole idea behind Z-19 was to partition duties for the two batteries batteries of known condition. If there's rationale for paralleling them, perhaps one larger battery is more appropriate? With respect to hangar maintenance for dual batteries, how about dual battery maintainers? Give each their own accessory plug to a wire off the battery bus protected with a 5A fuse?? If you're worried about having total battery energy available for any and all duties aboard the aircraft, what's the failure mode that prompts the design goal? >I'll try and attach a pdf. Nice job on the drawing . . . >BTW, after a year and a half, I am somewhat back in the air, though >many bugs remain. Yup, it's no different in the development of TC aircraft. Hopefully we slay all the dragons during pre-cert flight testing and shepherding the first dozen or so airplanes down the line. The NICE thing about dead-dragons in the factory is that the outcome benefits lots of future airplanes. Your website for sharing your own hunting successes is a good and useful thing . . . Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:55 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-31A question From: "johngoodman" Got confirmation on the order. Thanks! John -------- #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine & Panel delivery soon. N711JG reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255426#255426 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:29 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AEC9011 At 02:00 PM 7/31/2009, you wrote: > >Thanks, Bob, for answering my questions on the other thread :-) > >Sifting through the forum archives, I see you have mentioned a >replacement for the AEC9005-101 LV monitor module, >http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf ,which >shows the new product. When will the 9011 become available? As soon as I get my kids schooled in the art of soldering specs of fly-#$@@ onto ECB's. The design is done and I've had a couple of prototypes flying for the past 6 months or so. When do you absolutely need it? >Looks like it would replace the S704-1 alternator disconnect and >AEC9005-101 LV monitor module. The alternator disconnect portion of >the drawing shows a slightly different alternator disconnect, the >AEC9011-110-1. No, only the AEC9005 LV warning. It COULD be used for OV management of either generators -OR- alternators with external regulators. The present modus operandi for the 9011 calls for ENERGIZING the relay to shut the alternator/generator down. For your application, we need to ENERGIZE the relay to bring the alternator ON and de-energize it to kill the alternator. I guess I could do a patch to the software to make it do that. That would allow the single device to do both OV and LV monitoring/control on your small PM alternator. > It says 'arc suppression' and has a resistor and capacitor added. > What are the pros and cons of these pieces? If I then wanted to > leave of the resistor and capacitor, could I simply modify the 9011? Those are components added to the generator field disconnect relay when and if the OV management relay connects to a very inductive load (alternator or generator field). For the application we're talking about, you wouldn't need the arc suppression. Let me think about this a bit and see what it would take to offer a different dash number for the 9011. Alternatively, I could make the existing version energize the relay for generator turn-on . . . that would let me offer one product into yet another application. That's and attractive. I'll think about it. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:24 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9011 From: "messydeer" > When do you absolutely need it? Absolutely...hmm...lemme say possibly as early as 2 months, probably between 3 and 4 months, maybe as long as 6-8 months. If I knew the dimensions, connections, etc. I could prolly leave space for it and do a little retro fitting, if my project stepped into the fast lane. > No, only the AEC9005 LV warning. It COULD be used for > OV management of either generators -OR- alternators > with external regulators. I won't have any aux battery, so if I outfitted it today I would need only an LV warning light and not the rest of the options currently available. > For your application, > we need to ENERGIZE the relay to bring the alternator > ON and de-energize it to kill the alternator. I guess > I could do a patch to the software to make it do that. > That would allow the single device to do both OV and > LV monitoring/control on your small PM alternator. And this device wouldn't need the arc suppression devices for my use, just like you'd said before, right? That would be nice. Then it would replace the PM alternator disconnect. It could use the panel display from the 9011 prototype, showing something like lights for OV, LV, aux bat LV (wouldn't be wired in my case), and OV test? -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255446#255446 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:02 PM PST US From: "Dave Gribble" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch Failures The cost isn't that high - I paid only $98-$105 each for my six switch / breakers. Its the miracle of certified aviation. BTW - there was a vendor at Oshkosh who claims that the new switches are also defective (with a somewhat different failure mode - the breakage of the braided wire inside). He claimed to have "just yesterday" received a PMA for his replacement switch/breaker. It was only $130.... taking orders but not yet available. :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Isler" Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 11:13 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch Failures > > > Bob, > > While on the subject of switches, what's up with the AD on Beechcraft > switches? My local FBO has 3 or 4 Bonanzas and a couple of Barons in the > shop to replace all the switches on the panels. They told me the switches > were about $130 each (cost!!!!) plus several hours labor to install. I > cannot imagine charging that much for a switch. > > Jerry Isler > RV4 N455J > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:48 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: "Emacs!" At 08:39 AM 7/30/2009, you wrote: > >I just checked my archives, and the first Emacs showed up in a message >January 2, 2009. Your observation that it is in the place Bob intended >a picture or drawing to show up is accurate. However, the intended >picture was included in my emails as an attachment which shows up at >the bottom of the message. I can also look at the html format of those >messages, and I see a box in the appropriate location with "Emacs!" >inside the box. Looking at the html source, I find this: Gee, you guys put up with this for long time before rattling my cage . . . don't worry about getting "bit", my rabies shots are current. I sent myself some e-mails between matronics accounts with embedded images and they came through as expected. However, "embedded" appears not to mean that they are truly merged with the text . . . rather, they're stored in some sub-directory called "embedded". My email application also has a directory called "attached" . . . and at first blush, they appear quite similar. If I erase the "embedded" images from the directory, lo-and- behold, the html interpreter blocks out a space for that image and labels it with "Emacs!". Further, references to the embedded images at the bottom of the message calles out a file name and puts a big red X through it to indicate that it cannot be found. I don't know how the html text and images are handled through the list server . . . or stored in the forums archives. But it would appear that once the image becomes detached from it's companion text, the Emacs! thing pops up. There's quite a number of postings that loose some flavor when the images went away. I wonder if sending them as attachments is any more stable. OTOH, I could go back to archiving on my website and linking to the images. But it IS much less convenient. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:49 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: testing Emacs! this is a test Emacs! This is another test done! Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:58 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch Failures At 08:08 PM 7/31/2009, you wrote: > > >The cost isn't that high - I paid only $98-$105 each for my six >switch / breakers. Its the miracle of certified aviation. > >BTW - there was a vendor at Oshkosh who claims that the new switches >are also defective (with a somewhat different failure mode - the >breakage of the braided wire inside). That was the ORIGINAL failure with a secondary event (smoking spring) caused by current flowing through the spring between the contact strut and the frame. The "FIX" didn't stop the wire from breaking, it only kept the secondary event from occurring. So instead of getting a broken wire followed by smoke, you only get a dead accessory. Now, I suppose the next shoe to drop will insist that some light or warning be included. Yeah, put a paragraph in the flight manual asking the pilot to keep an eye on the ammeter lest a broken wire sneak past without notice . . . but at least we don't put smoke in the cockpit. > He claimed to have "just yesterday" received a PMA for his > replacement switch/breaker. It was only $130.... taking orders > but not yet available. :) Do you have his contact data? Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:12 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9011 At 07:40 PM 7/31/2009, you wrote: > > > > When do you absolutely need it? > > >Absolutely...hmm...lemme say possibly as early as 2 months, probably >between 3 and 4 months, maybe as long as 6-8 months. If I knew the >dimensions, connections, etc. I could prolly leave space for it and >do a little retro fitting, if my project stepped into the fast lane. the dimensions are given in http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf and the mating connector is a 9 pin, female d-sub. The only thing that MIGHT change is wiring to the relay such that the relay's N.O. contacts are used to control the alternator as opposed to the N.C. contacts as shown now. I've decided to leave the alternator/generator version as shown . . . for several reasons. There will be a PM alternator version -10/14V AND -11/28v that drops out the relay for alternator OV condition. This will merge nicely with all the existing PM alternator Z-figures. Your installation would not have the OV warn light and optionally, you can leave off the aux battery warn light too. So all you'll have is the OV test/reset switch and the LV warning light. > > No, only the AEC9005 LV warning. It COULD be used for > > OV management of either generators -OR- alternators > > with external regulators. > > >I won't have any aux battery, so if I outfitted it today I would >need only an LV warning light and not the rest of the options >currently available. The 'extras' come standard and are used or not used as your particular design goals dictate. Once the basic circuitry and packaging is taken care of, adding the extra features is about 5% of the total cost of the product. >And this device wouldn't need the arc suppression devices for my >use, just like you'd said before, right? That would be nice. Then it >would replace the PM alternator disconnect. It could use the panel >display from the 9011 prototype, showing something like lights for >OV, LV, aux bat LV (wouldn't be wired in my case), and OV test? I haven't decided whether or not to offer a placard. Like you've already noted, the needs of each builder can generate a lot of different placard combinations. I think we'll offer LED indicators, miniature switches, control module and the 704-1 style relay. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:00 PM PST US From: Bob White Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: "Emacs!" Hi Bob, I suspect the attachment method will be more likely to give good results as compared to embedding the images. Even lowly text only email clients can usually handle attachments in some way. Bob W. On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:36:40 -0500 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > At 08:39 AM 7/30/2009, you wrote: > > > >I just checked my archives, and the first Emacs showed up in a message > >January 2, 2009. Your observation that it is in the place Bob intended > >a picture or drawing to show up is accurate. However, the intended > >picture was included in my emails as an attachment which shows up at > >the bottom of the message. I can also look at the html format of those > >messages, and I see a box in the appropriate location with "Emacs!" > >inside the box. Looking at the html source, I find this: > > Gee, you guys put up with this for long time before > rattling my cage . . . don't worry about getting "bit", > my rabies shots are current. > > I sent myself some e-mails between matronics accounts > with embedded images and they came through as expected. > However, "embedded" appears not to mean that they are > truly merged with the text . . . rather, they're stored > in some sub-directory called "embedded". My email application > also has a directory called "attached" . . . and at first > blush, they appear quite similar. > > If I erase the "embedded" images from the directory, lo-and- > behold, the html interpreter blocks out a space for that > image and labels it with "Emacs!". Further, references to > the embedded images at the bottom of the message calles > out a file name and puts a big red X through it to indicate > that it cannot be found. > > I don't know how the html text and images are handled through > the list server . . . or stored in the forums archives. But > it would appear that once the image becomes detached from > it's companion text, the Emacs! thing pops up. > > There's quite a number of postings that loose some flavor > when the images went away. I wonder if sending them as > attachments is any more stable. OTOH, I could go back to > archiving on my website and linking to the images. But > it IS much less convenient. > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > > > > > -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:09 PM PST US From: "Dave Gribble" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch Failures His handout reads: "MAJOR PROBLEM! If you install the NEW Beech Circuit Breaker for the AD, be prepared for smoke, sparks, or fire in the cockpit. THE Braided Wire BREAKS..." You can read the rest of it with photos here: http://www.williamsairpower.com/pdf/switches.pdf Contact info as requested: Daniel J. Williams Williams Air Power 730 Lincoln Lake Ave Lowell MI 49331 616-897-5785 www.williamsairpower.com BTW Bob - in all the recent thread about regular (non-breaker) toggle switches failing there was talk of Carling and Honeywell.... do you know whose parts B&C sells? I want to buy the switches for my RV. dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 8:56 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch Failures > > > At 08:08 PM 7/31/2009, you wrote: >> >> >>The cost isn't that high - I paid only $98-$105 each for my six switch / >>breakers. Its the miracle of certified aviation. >> >>BTW - there was a vendor at Oshkosh who claims that the new switches are >>also defective (with a somewhat different failure mode - the breakage of >>the braided wire inside). > > That was the ORIGINAL failure with a secondary event > (smoking spring) caused by current flowing through > the spring between the contact strut and the frame. > > The "FIX" didn't stop the wire from breaking, it only > kept the secondary event from occurring. So instead > of getting a broken wire followed by smoke, you only > get a dead accessory. Now, I suppose the next shoe to > drop will insist that some light or warning be included. > Yeah, put a paragraph in the flight manual asking the > pilot to keep an eye on the ammeter lest a broken wire > sneak past without notice . . . but at least we don't > put smoke in the cockpit. > >> He claimed to have "just yesterday" received a PMA for his replacement >> switch/breaker. It was only $130.... taking orders but not yet >> available. :) > > Do you have his contact data? > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:33 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9011 From: "messydeer" > I've decided to leave the alternator/generator version > as shown . . . for several reasons. There will be a PM > alternator version -10/14V AND -11/28v that drops out > the relay for alternator OV condition. So I would get something separately, like the current one offered, S704-1? > This will merge nicely with all the existing PM alternator Z-figures. How so? > Your installation would not have the OV warn light and > optionally, you can leave off the aux battery warn light > too. So all you'll have is the OV test/reset switch and the > LV warning light. And from the Jabiru installation manual, http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300%20Install.pdf it says on page 16 a low voltage warning light can be connected to the green wire of the voltage regulator. So I would be left with an test/reset switch. This makes me ask, is a test/reset switch of great value for the OV disconnect system? If it is, it seems it would be better to get it separately, instead of in a package where most or all of the other components are of no use. > Once the > basic circuitry and packaging is taken care of, adding > the extra features is about 5% of the total cost of > the product. I just now saw a pic of the arc suppression relay: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/Relay_with_Arc_Suppression_s.jpg I had thought the capacitor was 10 or 20 times bigger! > I think we'll offer LED indicators, miniature switches, > control module and the 704-1 style relay. Sounds good. I'll wait for the announcements, or contact you if I haven't heard anything when I'm ready to install. Thanks again, Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255476#255476 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.