---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/01/09: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:56 AM - Re: Crossfeed (Sam Hoskins) 2. 06:41 AM - Re: Re: Switch Failures (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 07:53 AM - Re: Re: AEC9011 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 10:21 AM - Re: AEC9011 (messydeer) 5. 10:42 AM - why not a Schottky rectifier for essential bus diode? (dave.gribble@mchsi.com) 6. 11:21 AM - Re: why not a Schottky rectifier for essential bus diode? (dave.gribble@mchsi.com) 7. 11:21 AM - Re: why not a Schottky rectifier for essential bus diode? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 11:44 AM - Test - why are my posts empty? (dave.gribble@mchsi.com) 9. 12:19 PM - Re: Test - why are my posts empty? (Steve Thomas) 10. 12:53 PM - Re: Test - why are my posts empty? (Dave Gribble) 11. 12:55 PM - questions about B&C toggle swtiches (Dave Gribble) 12. 01:08 PM - Re: Re: AEC9011 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 02:20 PM - Switch failures (Lapsley R. and Sandra E. Caldwell) 14. 02:25 PM - Re: questions about B&C toggle swtiches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 02:42 PM - Re: AEC9011 (messydeer) 16. 03:51 PM - Re: questions about B&C toggle swtiches (Charlie England) 17. 04:05 PM - UMA engine gauge problem (Chenoweth) 18. 04:30 PM - Load Monitoring (al38kit) 19. 06:02 PM - Re: Re: AEC9011 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 06:02 PM - Re: Switch failures (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 06:06 PM - Re: Load Monitoring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 22. 07:05 PM - Re: Load Monitoring (al38kit) 23. 11:01 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 24. 11:13 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crossfeed From: Sam Hoskins Answers to questions/comments embedded below. On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 10:32 AM 7/27/2009, you wrote: > >> I have an all electric plane and have attempted to emulate Z19-RB. >> >> Both batteries are the same size, but I am intending on starting on the >> main battery only. My alternator-out load analysis shows around 17 amps to >> keep it in the air, though I think I can drop that to 10. >> > > Okay, what are your design goals for battery only > endurance? > I understand that I have added complication in order to persue this electronic ignition/injection path, and I am not flying the same plane as before. (The wire count is now over 150, for this little plane. My old wire count was about 70). If I could get a reliable 1.5 hours of flight time, from the time of an alternator faliure, I could deal with that. I fly day VFR, but sometimes fly over the mountains and the Ozarks. > > > The "keep the engine running" components may run off either bus, but the >> endurance bus is just connected to the main. >> >> Could I install a crossfeed switch between the main and engine batteries, >> without a contactor? >> > > Obviously, yes. But 30A always hot wires to a panel mounted > switch? You're stacking lots of switches and > options together that PRESUMES you'll be making good > and useful decisions when things aren't going right. > You also appear to be stacking multiple failures onto > a single tank full of gas. > It's always a question about how far to take this "redundancy" issue. I was recently thrown for another loop when Tracy Crook informed me I should have power supplied simultaneously to both the power inputs on the EC3 controller. I have not yet figured how to do that without adding any more switches. I had one scenario figured out, but it required the ON-ON-OFF switch. It turns out the switch is too wide to fit into the existing rows or switched. For right now, I am using an unwieldy workaround. > > > It would allow me to use the engine battery for the endurance bus, to >> supplement the main battery. That would also allow me to simultaneously >> charge both batteries without engaging the engine battery contactor. >> > > Hmmmm . . . the whole idea behind Z-19 was to partition > duties for the two batteries batteries of known condition. > If there's rationale for paralleling them, perhaps one larger > battery is more appropriate? > I already have the two batteries installed and I like the idea of using a timed replacement/rotation program. I would need a really complelling reason to backtrack all that. > > With respect to hangar maintenance for dual batteries, how > about dual battery maintainers? Give each their own accessory > plug to a wire off the battery bus protected with a 5A > fuse?? I could do that. The backup battery is easily accessible and the main backup is harder to get to, so that is simple and works out for charging. > > If you're worried about having total battery energy > available for any and all duties aboard the aircraft, > what's the failure mode that prompts the design > goal? > Of course, the worst failure would be the alternator giving up the ghost. At that point, electrons become as valuable as fuel. If the alternator is gone, I need to be able to have available all the juice in each of the batteries. > > I'll try and attach a pdf. >> > > Nice job on the drawing . . . > Thanks. I use SolidEdge 2D by Seimens. It's free. It's the most similar to ME10/CoCreate, which we used back at the explosives factory. > > > BTW, after a year and a half, I am somewhat back in the air, though many >> bugs remain. >> > > Yup, it's no different in the development of TC > aircraft. Hopefully we slay all the dragons during > pre-cert flight testing and shepherding the first > dozen or so airplanes down the line. The NICE thing > about dead-dragons in the factory is that the outcome > benefits lots of future airplanes. Your website for > sharing your own hunting successes is a good and useful > thing . . . > I figure the best I can give back is to make a good record for others to follow or to reject, as it suits them. Sam www.samhoskins.blogspot.com > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch Failures At 11:17 PM 7/31/2009, you wrote: > > >His handout reads: > >"MAJOR PROBLEM! If you install the NEW Beech Circuit Breaker for >the AD, be prepared for smoke, sparks, or fire in the cockpit. > >THE Braided Wire BREAKS..." > >You can read the rest of it with photos here: >http://www.williamsairpower.com/pdf/switches.pdf Good grief! A one page .pdf file of over 12 megabytes! Here's the meat of the text . . . The Braided Wire BREAKS This one was 90% failed when opened. ALL Beech and Tyco circuit breaker switches have the braided wire. Yes, that basic design has existed in this product since the early 60's. That series of breaker-switches has been manufactured in the hundreds of thousands with about 80K used in Beech products and perhaps the same amount in some Cessna models. Commercially, that design has a market footprint probably in the millions. Now, there is a fundamental flaw in the design for this product. You'll all no doubt recall numerous discussions about "gas-tight" for reliable connectivity and "support at the stress risers" for robustness. This is a common theme throughout the universe of wire connection. It was discussed at length in . . . http://aeroelectric.com/articles/terminal.pdf As you can see in this photo . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/W31_w_%27Failed%27_jumper_wires.jpg . . . the braid is SPOT WELDED to the forward corner of the frame. Yeah, let's hear it for gas-tight. But were is the support at the stress-risers for robustness? It isn't there. Now, in the photo above, the "failed" wires are some that I cut to see if I could detect a delta-R in the breaker's closed position for the purposes of detecting an impending failure. It wasn't possible with ordinary tools. However, when wires break in the fielded products, they fail right at the edge of the spotweld. Predictable. When the braided wire fails it either fails open or closed. If it fails open, the current then goes through the arm, through the spring and onto the load bar. The FAA used the word "shorted" in some of their descriptions of failure modes. I objected but the document was already published and in the field. It's a rare bureaucrat that will step up to do the right thing when caught with his pants down. I don't think there were EVER instances of shorting, only of broken wires that transferred the major current path to an uninsulated spring. By insulating the spring it solved this problem. However many Tyco circuit breaker switches have failed closed or shorted (in all types of aircraft). When the braid breaks off and closes the buss input to the load bar, it renders the switch ineffective and uncontrolled electricity goes through that circuit. After that it is smoke, sparks, and ultimately fire unless God intervenes. A classic example of seizing on a few facts, a few off the wall assumptions, some mis-interpreted drivel from the bureaucrats, an scare the pants off the uninformed by alluding to enhanced risk of joining their maker . . . What is needed is a circuit breaker switch that does not have a braided wire. Simplify the current path. Without a doubt, the new design is superior with regard to the elimination of the poorly implemented spot-welds for wire bonding. However, this product doesn't have the field history of the existing part. It's not known if 20 years and 100,000 parts from now, some new AD won't be issued against this part as well. What we DO know is that the failures are rare, and relatively benign and is only a risk for the breakers above 10A continuous loads. If it were my airplane, I'd replace the pitot heat and prop heat switch breakers with the new design, leave the rest alone. Just like the guy who got an STC for replacing Piper's aluminum cables with copper cables and made a bundle selling holy-watered hunks of wire, this guy is going to make some bux selling a $30 device at a huge mark-up . . . made possible because he was willing to run the traps with the folks who holy-watered his product. Hey, how about a "cash for breakers" program? Talk to the right folks in Congress and I'll bet we can soak our grandchildren for a few $millions$ to help this guy get well quicker and alleviate the need for prayers in the cockpit. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9011 At 11:41 PM 7/31/2009, you wrote: > > > > I've decided to leave the alternator/generator version > > as shown . . . for several reasons. There will be a PM > > alternator version -10/14V AND -11/28v that drops out > > the relay for alternator OV condition. > >So I would get something separately, like the current one offered, S704-1? Yes > > This will merge nicely with all the existing PM alternator Z-figures. >How so? Because the present design philosophy for controlling the PM alternator is to ENERGIZE the alternator disconnect relay to bring the alternator on line. This would remain the same. The ground side of the alternator disconnect relay would be controlled by the OV/LV module. >And from the Jabiru installation manual, >http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300%20Install.pdf >it says on page 16 a low voltage warning light can be connected to >the green wire of the voltage regulator. So I would be left with an >test/reset switch. As a general rule, the alternator failure warnings integral to voltage regulators are indicative of gross alternator failure and may not be sensitive to simple reductions in voltage due to regulator control failure and/or alternator over-loading. Legacy design goals for TC aircraft call for LV/OV monitoring and control to be independent systems not electrically connected with the regulator. It is my recommendation that the "LV warning" built into the regulator be ignored and that all LV/OV related functions be handled by the AEC9011-10 >This makes me ask, is a test/reset switch of great value for the OV >disconnect system? If it is, it seems it would be better to get it >separately, instead of in a package where most or all of the other >components are of no use. Connected to the answer above. First, you'd like to be able to pre-flight the LV/OV monitoring and control system. The LV light begins to flash as soon as you turn the master switch ON. After engine start, RPMs high enough to bring the alternator to life should turn the LV warning light out. After that, a manual TEST trip of the OV system should bring the LV warning back on. A RESET should clear the LV condition. It's all a package designed to address design goals driven by the legacy failure modes effects analysis process that has served us well in the TC aircraft world for decades. For your application, the only thing you'll leave off is the second LV warning light. >I just now saw a pic of the arc suppression relay: >http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/Relay_with_Arc_Suppression_s.jpg >I had thought the capacitor was 10 or 20 times bigger! It doesn't take much. And except for the fact that we'd like to trip the OV system once per flight cycle in preflight, the arc suppression system would probably not add much value. But when you test a generator or alternator at low rpm, field currents tend to be high and stored energy greater than for the average OV trip condition at cruise. So it's a good thing to have. But control of the PM alternator doesn't present these kinds of stresses so the arc suppression is left off. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:33 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9011 From: "messydeer" Hey, Bob :-) > For your application, the only thing you'll leave > off is the second LV warning light. So I would still get the S704-1 separately and the only moving parts in the 9011 would be the OV test/reset switch? It would look similar to the drawing on page 4 of 9011-700-1C, except everything inside the dotted lines would be replaced by my PM alternator and my S704-1. The inductor for my S704-1 would be wired into the OV WARN light somehow. > The ground side of the alternator disconnect > relay... You mean the wire from the ground side of the inductor S704-1 that is grounded to the firewall? > ...would be controlled by the OV/LV module. The OV/LV module is the 9011, 9011-10 in my case. From Z-20, I thought the 'ground side of the alternator disconnect relay' was normally controlled by the crowbar OVM via tripping the ALT 5A circuit breaker. You're not saying the crowbar OVM and ALT circuit breaker would be changed, are you? Finally, From your 2nd reply in this thread: > So all you'll have is the OV test/reset switch and the > LV warning light. Which seems different than what you have said now: > ...the only thing you'll leave > off is the second LV warning light. I feel like I have a progressive transfer switch in my brain. It still isn't in the 'on-on' position for this topic, but you'll help me get it there soon! Thanks, Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255518#255518 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:18 AM PST US From: dave.gribble@mchsi.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: why not a Schottky rectifier for essential bus diode? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:21:37 AM PST US From: dave.gribble@mchsi.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: why not a Schottky rectifier for essential bus diode? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:21:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: why not a Schottky rectifier for essential bus diode? At 12:31 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote: q: Why not a Schottky rectifier for essential bus diode? a: They work too. The hype used to market them doesn't match realities of the application but they're fine in terms of suitability to task. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:44:47 AM PST US From: dave.gribble@mchsi.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Test - why are my posts empty? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:44 PM PST US From: Steve Thomas Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test - why are my posts empty? You have some strange HTML code in your message that is being ignored, hence a blank message. If your email client allows you to see the raw source of the message, you can see everything. Try changing your text settings to "Plain Text". You loose all the superfluous crap that comes with some HTML editors and gets your basic message across. Steve Thomas ________________________________________________________________________ On Aug 1, 2009, at 11:34 AM, dave.gribble@mchsi.com wrote: > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:46 PM PST US From: "Dave Gribble" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test - why are my posts empty? Thanks Steve - testing 1 2 3.... sending this with outlook express. Previous were sent via web client, which seems to have changed for the worse! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Thomas" Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 2:10 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test - why are my posts empty? > > You have some strange HTML code in your message that is being ignored, > hence a blank message. If your email client allows you to see the raw > source of the message, you can see everything. > > Try changing your text settings to "Plain Text". You loose all the > superfluous crap that comes with some HTML editors and gets your basic > message across. > > > Steve Thomas > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > On Aug 1, 2009, at 11:34 AM, dave.gribble@mchsi.com wrote: > >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:12 PM PST US From: "Dave Gribble" Subject: AeroElectric-List: questions about B&C toggle swtiches Hello group - I have 2 questions about B&C toggle switches... they are at the show so I thought I'd post here... 1) Anyone know what brand they are? With all the recent discussion of switch failures I'd like to know if they are OK or not. Of course my system will be failure tolerant so this isn't a safety question, more of a consumer question. 2) Do the single pole and double pole switches physically look the same from the panel side? Sometimes I've seem some that don't quite match (toggle shape, metal finish, etc.) and in that case I'd buy all double pole switches. Thanks for any info, hope this post works (plain text via outlook express... fingers crossed). dave ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9011 > >So I would still get the S704-1 separately and the only moving parts >in the 9011 would be the OV test/reset switch? Yes . . . >I feel like I have a progressive transfer switch in my brain. It >still isn't in the 'on-on' position for this topic, but you'll help >me get it there soon! See wiring diagram posted at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/9011_PM_OV-LV.pdf Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:28 PM PST US From: "Lapsley R. and Sandra E. Caldwell" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch failures Does anyone have a cross reference from B & C part numbers to Honeywell's part numbers? Roger ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:27 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: questions about B&C toggle swtiches At 02:54 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote: > > >Hello group - I have 2 questions about B&C toggle switches... they >are at the show so I thought I'd post here... > >1) Anyone know what brand they are? With all the recent discussion >of switch failures I'd like to know if they are OK or not. Of >course my system will be failure tolerant so this isn't a safety >question, more of a consumer question. They're Carling products. Direct descendants of the rocker switches (including the infamous split rocker master) used on Cessnas and others for decades. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/Carling/ >2) Do the single pole and double pole switches physically look the >same from the panel side? Sometimes I've seem some that don't quite >match (toggle shape, metal finish, etc.) and in that case I'd buy >all double pole switches. The are identical. >Thanks for any info, hope this post works (plain text via outlook >express... fingers crossed). Yup, that works. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:17 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9011 From: "messydeer" Great :-) The new diagram shows no crowbar OVM, nor circuit breaker between terminals 2 and 5 in the master switch, so does this mean the 9011 will indeed replace these, taking the overvoltage PM alternator offline? -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255558#255558 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:30 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: questions about B&C toggle swtiches Dave Gribble wrote: > > > Hello group - I have 2 questions about B&C toggle switches... they are > at the show so I thought I'd post here... > > 1) Anyone know what brand they are? With all the recent discussion > of switch failures I'd like to know if they are OK or not. Of course > my system will be failure tolerant so this isn't a safety question, > more of a consumer question. > > 2) Do the single pole and double pole switches physically look the > same from the panel side? Sometimes I've seem some that don't quite > match (toggle shape, metal finish, etc.) and in that case I'd buy all > double pole switches. > > Thanks for any info, hope this post works (plain text via outlook > express... fingers crossed). > > dave limited answer/thought set: 2) Many panel designers now recommend using dissimilar switch handles for different jobs. Perfect rows of matching switches look nice on the flight line, but bouncing around in the air in the dark, being able to identify a switch by feel can be an asset. outlook express: Try Thunderbird. Or just about anything other than outlook.... :-) Charlie ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:46 PM PST US From: "Chenoweth" Subject: AeroElectric-List: UMA engine gauge problem I have UMA tachometer, oil pressure, oil temperature, and cylinder heat temperature gauges installed as part of a recently completed Rotax 912S installation in a Kitfox that previously had a 582. The airplane (and its electrical system) are about 8 years old except for the changes made to accommodate the brand new engine. I am using an electrical system design as outlined in the Aeroelectric Connection including the over voltage module and the ground block bolted thru the firewall to the 6 awg engine ground cable. At about seven hours of trouble-free operation the CHT and oil temperature gauges registered 140 degrees at power-up with the ambient temperature at about 60. The oil pressure gauge barely crept up to 12 psi as I ran the engine for about 60 seconds (before shutting down). The plane is hangared and had sat idle thru about 10 days of damp, rainy weather. Prior to this point the gauges had behaved in a normal way - temperatures pegged at zero then rising as the engine warmed up and oil pressure climbing immediately at start-up to 70 psi and then declining as things warmed up. Oil temperature would reach 120 after about 5 to 6 minutes. The tach behaved normally. Simple explanation, right? Evidently not. After testing the instruments in the plane and discussion with UMA I sent the gauges back, they were declared to be working correctly, I got them back, installed them (one at a time with tests in between), and they worked fine. For about two flight hours. Then after the plane sat for three or four days the false readings reappeared. This time I made a test rig so I could completely bypass the plane's electrical system. I have a db9 with separate leads. I ran one to the battery positive, one to the sensor on the engine, and held the ground lead against the engine block within a couple of inches of the sensor. Same false reading. Battery voltage at this point was about 11.9 (as shown on the aircraft voltmeter just after the test). We checked the resistance of the CHT sensor where we did the test and it was 1145 ohms which is consistent with the ambient temperature of 70 or so. The following day the "falseness" of the temperature readings was less. The day after it was still less so I flew the plane a bit. Oil pressure readings were lower than "normal"; temperatures were higher but all within a range that I felt ok running the engine in flight (briefly). The fact that three instruments are involved makes me wonder just what I've done to cause this. The fact that an instrument, isolated from the plane's electrical system, is reading inaccurately makes me wonder about some kind of problem in all three gauges. Can anyone on the list suggest a cause or perhaps an additional debugging technique. Thanks very much. Bill Kitfox IV 1200 Albion, Maine ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:30:31 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Load Monitoring From: "al38kit" I'm considering using two alternators, the 20 Amp B&C, and the 60 AMP Plane Power. I'm also considering using two PP regulators, as it appears that they will load share as a percent of output...I'm going to use a JPI 930 that has the ability to monitor two locations with 50mv shunts...they sell 100 AMP units at $75 a pop...I thought that to be a little much for a shunt... I think I read that you were using 50mv shunts in your load meter set up and that they were matched or calibrated or something... Do you think that using two of them on the load meter of the JPI would be a good idea...and how much are they? Any other comments welcome, especially on the PP regulators and the load sharing feature. PS...I found the Tyco EV200 relays for $50, delivered...so I bought them. Thanks, Al Kittleson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255568#255568 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:19 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9011 At 04:40 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote: > >Great :-) > >The new diagram shows no crowbar OVM, nor circuit breaker between >terminals 2 and 5 in the master switch, so does this mean the 9011 >will indeed replace these, taking the overvoltage PM alternator offline? that's what it does . . . Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:19 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch failures At 04:13 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote: >Does anyone have a cross reference from B & C part numbers to >Honeywell's part numbers? > The last two digits of B&C's numbers carry over to the Honeywell part numbers shown in http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/Microswitch/Microswitch_TL-Series.pdf For example, the S700-2-3 is a Honeywell 2TL1-3 | | | | | | | \--Function | | \-- # of poles | \---- Function \----- # of poles Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:33 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load Monitoring At 06:28 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote: > >I'm considering using two alternators, the 20 Amp B&C, and the 60 >AMP Plane Power. I'm also considering using two PP regulators, as >it appears that they will load share as a percent of output...I'm >going to use a JPI 930 that has the ability to monitor two locations >with 50mv shunts...they sell 100 AMP units at $75 a pop...I thought >that to be a little much for a shunt... > >I think I read that you were using 50mv shunts in your load meter >set up and that they were matched or calibrated or something... > >Do you think that using two of them on the load meter of the JPI >would be a good idea...and how much are they? > >Any other comments welcome, especially on the PP regulators and the >load sharing feature. > >PS...I found the Tyco EV200 relays for $50, delivered...so I bought them. > >Thanks, > >Al Kittleson Please don't do this. The elegant application of the two alternators is EITHER as shown in Z-11 or INDEPENDENT W/cross-feed as shown in Z-14. What are your load requirements that you think you'll ever need the combined output of both alternators to drive a single bus? Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:01 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Load Monitoring From: "al38kit" Sorry to not word the question better regarding the shunts. I was generally thinking of a design along the lines of Z-14...my thought was to run with the crossfeed tie closed in normal operation and use both alternators to feed the tied busses... If that is a bad idea, then I'll run split busses. My monitor should function the same way, regardless of whether the buss tie is open or closed...that is where the question regarding the shunts enters the picture. Thanks, Al Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255585#255585 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:29 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains AeroElectric-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the AeroElectric-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the AeroElectric-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the AeroElectric-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all AeroElectric-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * AeroElectric-List.FAQ - Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:44 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.