---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/02/09: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: Load Monitoring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 08:03 AM - Re: Z-31A question (Ian) 3. 08:37 AM - Re: Load Monitoring (al38kit) 4. 09:20 AM - Re: Z-31A question (Roger) 5. 09:26 AM - Alternator charging battery (Charles Brame) 6. 09:28 AM - Re: Z-31A question (Dj Merrill) 7. 09:44 AM - Re: Re: Load Monitoring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 10:05 AM - Re: Re: Load Monitoring (Ken) 9. 10:05 AM - Re: Z-31A question (Terry Watson) 10. 10:54 AM - Re: Load Monitoring (al38kit) 11. 12:17 PM - Re: Re: Load Monitoring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 04:15 PM - Re: Alternator charging battery (Bob McCallum) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:48 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Load Monitoring At 09:03 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote: > >Sorry to not word the question better regarding the shunts. > >I was generally thinking of a design along the lines of Z-14...my >thought was to run with the crossfeed tie closed in normal operation >and use both alternators to feed the tied busses... > >If that is a bad idea, then I'll run split busses. The cross-tie is used only when one alternator has failed and there's a useful mode of operation where one alternator can feed equipment on both sides. The cross-tie contactor is closed only for engine cranking and single-alternator operations. >My monitor should function the same way, regardless of whether the >buss tie is open or closed...that is where the question regarding >the shunts enters the picture. If you've done your homework (load analysis) then the amount of power required of either alternator is known before-hand for all flight conditions. In other words, your plan-A, plan-B . . . plan-x execution should not depend on reading an ammeter. But if your electrical system monitoring device(s) come with hall effect sensors, then they can go on the alternator b-leads. For the most part, current displays are most useful on the ground as trouble shooting assists. Run each alternator with its own, stand alone regulator and ov protection . . . and if your glass panels do not include active notification of low voltage, then that feature should be part of your instrumentation planing for both sides. What airplane are you building where you think you can get a good return on investment for Z-14? Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-31A question From: Ian All, I've reluctantly unsubscribed to this excellent list due the over-the-top amount of emails. Here are some tips on how to reduce the quantity of traffic (had 64 emails on returning from Oshkosh): 1. Don't create an email just to say something like "thanks" or "I agree" or just to be "chatty". 2. Don't reply to the list when you're addressing an individual request, like "yeah, I'd be interested in buying that from you". 3. Think twice about EVERY email you send, because it's going to a LOT of people, unless you decide to send it only to one other person. If you don't know how to address an individual rather than the list, just look at the "to" line. If it says "aeroelectric-list@matronics.com" we all get it. You can overwrite this with the specific sender's email address. There are many other great suggestions that could be made on how to get the best out of bulletin boards. OK, bye for now. Ian Brown On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 09:50 -0500, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 09:59 AM 7/30/2009, you wrote: > > > > > >Bob, > >Z-31A is for a Military Style Ground Power Jack. I understand the > >diode and OVM-14 on the Ground Power Contactor, but is the > >diode/jumper necessary on the Existing Battery Contactor? > > Yes. The jumper turns the 4-terminal contactor into > a 3-terminal contactor. The diode or other transient > trapper across the coil is always a good idea too. > > >Also, when do you think you will be filling existing orders for OVM-14s? > > Our shops look like a train-wreck right now. I cleared > some space on a table yesterday and put a bunch of OVM-14s > together and filled all existing orders. Also put a few > on the shelf. > > If you had one on order, you should have received the > e-mail notices from the credit card company and a packing > list from the 'Connection. > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:25 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Load Monitoring From: "al38kit" Bob, I think we have a numbers of things that have come up regarding my original question...which was inquiring about the 50mv shunts and their price, which was the question du jour. But to answer your question, I'm working on a rebuild of an Express (four place, low wing composite...family mobile, X-C plane)...It has an IO-520, three blade prop. I already have the 60-70 amp alternator belt driven alternator and the B&C gear driven unit. As I don't plan to put in a vacuum system, the Z-14 design appears to be a good choice. Is there something about the Plane Power regulator that you don't like? I'm open to ideas, but using a regulator that was designed to load share seems like a good idea, but if it isn't, it's easy to go with the open tie buss design. I've flown a lot of big airplanes where tying the busses together is ops normal. I've had some thought of trying this too. If it is, or turns out to be a bad idea, all I need to do is open the tie buss relay. I'll do all the normal buss load analysis and thought that an easy way to monitor loads would be to use your shunt, along with the JPI monitor. This monitor has user settable alarms for current and voltage. What are your thoughts on the shunts in this application? I don't have any hall effect ammeters right now and as the JPI has two shunt type ammeters available, I thought it would be a good idea to use them... What about the Plane Power regulators? From talking to the owner of the company, they work in tandem by turning each alternator "ON" for the same period of time. He claims that dissimilar sized alternators can easily be used in this type of setup. It's normally used in twin engine aircraft, with one buss. I'm not attempting to be a heretic, just exploring other options...I have almost all the parts that I have scrounged second hand (Including the JPI monitor)... How about "them shunts"...? Cheers, Al Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255643#255643 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:22 AM PST US From: "Roger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-31A question Ian, If the quantity of e-mails bothers you, then why not just opt for the "Digest" only! This will insure you get all the info in a format you can scan through quickly, all with only ONE e-mail. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian" Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 10:59 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-31A question > > All, > I've reluctantly unsubscribed to this excellent list due the > over-the-top amount of emails. Here are some tips on how to reduce the > quantity of traffic (had 64 emails on returning from Oshkosh): > > 1. Don't create an email just to say something like "thanks" or "I > agree" or just to be "chatty". > > 2. Don't reply to the list when you're addressing an individual > request, like "yeah, I'd be interested in buying that from you". > > 3. Think twice about EVERY email you send, because it's going to a LOT > of people, unless you decide to send it only to one other person. > > If you don't know how to address an individual rather than the list, > just look at the "to" line. If it says > "aeroelectric-list@matronics.com" we all get it. You can overwrite this > with the specific sender's email address. > > There are many other great suggestions that could be made on how to get > the best out of bulletin boards. > > OK, bye for now. > > Ian Brown > > On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 09:50 -0500, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> >> At 09:59 AM 7/30/2009, you wrote: >> > >> > >> >Bob, >> >Z-31A is for a Military Style Ground Power Jack. I understand the >> >diode and OVM-14 on the Ground Power Contactor, but is the >> >diode/jumper necessary on the Existing Battery Contactor? >> >> Yes. The jumper turns the 4-terminal contactor into >> a 3-terminal contactor. The diode or other transient >> trapper across the coil is always a good idea too. >> >> >Also, when do you think you will be filling existing orders for OVM-14s? >> >> Our shops look like a train-wreck right now. I cleared >> some space on a table yesterday and put a bunch of OVM-14s >> together and filled all existing orders. Also put a few >> on the shelf. >> >> If you had one on order, you should have received the >> e-mail notices from the credit card company and a packing >> list from the 'Connection. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> --------------------------------------- >> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) >> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) >> ( appearance of being right . . . ) >> ( ) >> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) >> --------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:26:46 AM PST US From: Charles Brame Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator charging battery Bob, et. al., I am aware that the wrong battery charger will overcharge and ultimately ruin a PC-680 type battery. My 60 amp B&C alternator puts out a lot of amps right after engine start, and has that capability indefinitely. Of course, the regulator maintains the voltage at a reasonable level. But what determines the alternator amperage output during battery charging and after the battery is fully charged. It would seem to me that during a several hour flight, the battery could be over charged and damaged by the alternator output. That apparently does not happen, but I don't understand why not. Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-31A question From: Dj Merrill On 8/2/2009 12:18 PM, Roger wrote: > If the quantity of e-mails bothers you, then why not just opt for the > "Digest" only! It also helps if people do not include the ENTIRE copy of the previous message to which they are replying. Snipping everything but the relevant parts help to make the digest version much easier to read. -Dj ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:55 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Load Monitoring At 10:35 AM 8/2/2009, you wrote: > >Bob, > >I think we have a numbers of things that have come up regarding my >original question...which was inquiring about the 50mv shunts and >their price, which was the question du jour. oops . . . yeah. If your system uses 50mv shunts both I and B&C have them in stock in various sizes. I can cut larger shunts down to smaller applications as well. I think we both get $25.00/ea for them. >But to answer your question, I'm working on a rebuild of an Express >(four place, low wing composite...family mobile, X-C plane)...It has >an IO-520, three blade prop. I already have the 60-70 amp >alternator belt driven alternator and the B&C gear driven unit. Oh yeah, I recall that now. >As I don't plan to put in a vacuum system, the Z-14 design appears >to be a good choice. Agreed >Is there something about the Plane Power regulator that you don't like? Not a thing. I'm sure their product performs as advertised. But it's not clear that they are true load sharing devices driven by DIRECT MEASUREMENT of output from all power generating devices. For example, the Hawkers have two engine driven generators and one APU driven generator. ALL three can be tied to the one bus at the same time. Each generator will be loaded to it's proportionate share of the load based on individual capability (the APU generator is smaller than the other two). This isn't rocket science but it's not trivial either. >I'm open to ideas, but using a regulator that was designed to load >share seems like a good idea, but if it isn't, it's easy to go with >the open tie buss design. That's the original design goal for Z-14 for a variety of reasons . . . not the least of which is the hassle/ expense of true load-sharing regulators. I've designed and proposed two different load sharing regulators over the years. All worked as advertised but were markedly more expensive than the stand-alone, single alternator regulators. We never went to production with them in spite of the fact that the Cessna and Beech light twins really needed them. Today, I could do a uP based regulator for a small fraction of the cost and much better performance . . . neat stuff that software! The really cool thing about the old carbon pile regulator for generators is their ease of paralleling using the relatively high voltage drop in generator's compensation windings as a crude shunt. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Parallel_Aircraft_Generators.jpg a simple addition of a few turns of wire in the regulator wired to cross-tied compensation windings did a pretty good job of paralleling the generators with a minimum parts count. Alternators are a whole other problem . . . >I've flown a lot of big airplanes where tying the busses together is >ops normal. I've had some thought of trying this too. If it is, or >turns out to be a bad idea, all I need to do is open the tie buss relay. Yup, wiring the 2-50 switch as illustrated gives you auto-tie for cranking and leaves the bus-tie contactor open unless selected by moving to the opposite position. >I'll do all the normal buss load analysis and thought that an easy >way to monitor loads would be to use your shunt, along with the JPI >monitor. This monitor has user settable alarms for current and voltage. Very well. We can get the proper shunts into your possession through several venues. >What are your thoughts on the shunts in this application? I don't >have any hall effect ammeters right now and as the JPI has two shunt >type ammeters available, I thought it would be a good idea to use them... If they're already in place, then putting them to useful service is not a bad idea. The shunts don't weigh much either. >What about the Plane Power regulators? From talking to the owner of >the company, they work in tandem by turning each alternator "ON" for >the same period of time. He claims that dissimilar sized >alternators can easily be used in this type of setup. It's normally >used in twin engine aircraft, with one buss. In that situation you MUST do something to distribute the loads. Making two IDENTICAL alternators, turning THE SAME SPEED approximately share loads by what I BELIEVE Plane Power does is indeed practical. But I that control philosophy wouldn't work with a 60/20 or 40/20 combination like Z-14 where the alternators are different from each other and turn different speeds. >I'm not attempting to be a heretic, just exploring other options...I >have almost all the parts that I have scrounged second hand >(Including the JPI monitor)... Understand and no fault perceived. Sounds like you've got a workable plan that needs at most a bit of tweaking. >How about "them shunts"...? Can fix you up. You can place an order by ordering a dual ammeter kit from the website and enter quantity of "0" but put values in for the shunts you need. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:35 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Load Monitoring With Z-14 normally running with isolated alternators, I have instant notification of either alternator failing due low voltage. With paralleled alternators I presume you would add something like low current warnings (independent of the regulator) to warn of a bad alternator. Ken >> Is there something about the Plane Power regulator that you don't like? > > Not a thing. I'm sure their product performs as advertised. But > it's not clear that they are true load sharing devices driven > by DIRECT MEASUREMENT of output from all power generating > devices. For example, the Hawkers have two engine driven > generators and one APU driven generator. ALL three can be > tied to the one bus at the same time. Each generator will > be loaded to it's proportionate share of the load based on > individual capability (the APU generator is smaller than > the other two). This isn't rocket science but it's not > trivial either. > >> I'm open to ideas, but using a regulator that was designed to load >> share seems like a good idea, but if it isn't, it's easy to go with >> the open tie buss design. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:36 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-31A question I think Matt's rules and guidelines work just fine. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ian Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:00 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-31A question All, I've reluctantly unsubscribed to this excellent list due the over-the-top amount of emails. Here are some tips on how to reduce the quantity of traffic (had 64 emails on returning from Oshkosh): 1. Don't create an email just to say something like "thanks" or "I agree" or just to be "chatty". 2. Don't reply to the list when you're addressing an individual request, like "yeah, I'd be interested in buying that from you". 3. Think twice about EVERY email you send, because it's going to a LOT of people, unless you decide to send it only to one other person. If you don't know how to address an individual rather than the list, just look at the "to" line. If it says "aeroelectric-list@matronics.com" we all get it. You can overwrite this with the specific sender's email address. There are many other great suggestions that could be made on how to get the best out of bulletin boards. OK, bye for now. Ian Brown On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 09:50 -0500, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 09:59 AM 7/30/2009, you wrote: > > > > > >Bob, > >Z-31A is for a Military Style Ground Power Jack. I understand the > >diode and OVM-14 on the Ground Power Contactor, but is the > >diode/jumper necessary on the Existing Battery Contactor? > > Yes. The jumper turns the 4-terminal contactor into > a 3-terminal contactor. The diode or other transient > trapper across the coil is always a good idea too. > > >Also, when do you think you will be filling existing orders for OVM-14s? > > Our shops look like a train-wreck right now. I cleared > some space on a table yesterday and put a bunch of OVM-14s > together and filled all existing orders. Also put a few > on the shelf. > > If you had one on order, you should have received the > e-mail notices from the credit card company and a packing > list from the 'Connection. > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:57 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Load Monitoring From: "al38kit" Bob, I really appreciate your insight into this stuff. I'm not just "kicking the tires" but really plane some installation in the near future and I'm just getting stuff lined up... Regarding the PP regulators, I'm sure Les said that alternators of dissimilar outputs would load share based upon their respective max values...If, for example, you used the 20/60 amp combo and required 40 amps, each alternator would be tasked with 50% of the load...but I'll check into it...I believe he said that it could be done by each regulator being fired up for the same amount of time...does that make sense to you? I'm not sure why that would work, but I'm pretty sure that's what he said was the basis for the idea. I believe both regulators are connected by a single wire that gives the feedback of them "knowing" how long to stay on. Probably my final question on this topic: If more current is needed from an alternator than it is able to make, what happens? I expect that most of these alternators will produce more than the rated current. At PP they told me that the 60 amp will easily put out more than 70. I'm not advocating that anyone try it, and I expect there are a lot of bad things that would happen if one tried to do it for a long time. Excess heat and premature failure are two things I can think of, or even catastrophic failure of the unit...what I'm wondering is...what would occur if, say, the 60 amp unit failed and only the 20 amp unit stayed on line when the overall requirement was 50 amps. Would the 20 amp unit continue to do it's job to the best of it's ability, with the battery(s) picking up the slack for as long as they could, or would something worse happen? I'm wondering as this could be the situation IF the 60 amp unit failed and one continued with the 20. I expect I could get by indefinitely on the 20 as long it's pitot heat and/or lights were needed...just wondering if when that occurred, what would happen. I suspect that the alternator would do what it could and that the battery(s) would pick up the slack with the buss voltage going down from 13.8-14 to whatever voltage the batteries could supplement...like 12.2 something... What do you think? Sorry if this is an old question, but I'm new to the forum and didn't find anything with a search. Thanks again, Al Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255670#255670 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:17:13 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Load Monitoring At 12:04 PM 8/2/2009, you wrote: > >With Z-14 normally running with isolated alternators, I have instant >notification of either alternator failing due low voltage. With >paralleled alternators I presume you would add something like low >current warnings (independent of the regulator) to warn of a bad alternator. >Ken The B&C alternator controllers were designed such that LV warning is powered independently of the lead that powers the alternator. The idea was to maintain as much separation as possible between jelly-bean parts that "regulate" as those which "warn". Newer designs with micro-controllers often tempt the designer to roll it all up in one piece of silicon. The legacy design goals for separation suggest this is not a good idea. So even if we were to develop a processor based regulator, the OV/LV protection and warning would still be electrically independent even if they shared the same enclosure. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:12 PM PST US From: "Bob McCallum" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator charging battery Charlie; The wrong battery charger will eventually overcharge and ruin any battery. Your 60 amp B&C alternator puts out whatever current is required (up to approximately 60 amps or so) to recharge your battery and support system loads whether right after starting or any other time it=92s turning quickly enough to do so. (Always assuming everything is operating correctly of course) Yes it has the ability to do that indefinitely. The voltage regulator regulates the output of the alternator to maintain the system voltage at the required level, approximately 14 volts. If the battery is charged, then no more current will flow into it and the alternator will just be supplying system loads. Should the loads exceed the alternators ability to supply current then the battery will take up the slack. When system loads are again reduced below the 60+ amps able to be supplied by the alternator alone, then the excess current will recharge the battery once again until it is fully charged at which point the alternator output will reduce to match the system requirements. The only way to overcharge the battery is for the regulator to fail and cause the system voltage to rise too high. Hence the desirability of over voltage protection. The alternator only generates whatever current is required not its full rated output. Just like your battery might be capable of supplying 1000 amps, but if all you have connected is a single 6 watt light bulb, it will only supply the =BD amp or so required by that light bulb, not the full 1000 amps it=92s capable of. Bob McC > -----Original Message---- > - > From: owner- > aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner- > aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Charles > Brame > Sent: Sunday, August > 02, 2009 12:24 PM > To: AeroElectric List > Subject: AeroElectric- > List: Alternator charging > battery > > --> AeroElectric-List > message posted by: > Charles Brame > > > Bob, et. al., > > I am aware that the > wrong battery charger > will overcharge and > ultimately ruin a PC-680 > type battery. My 60 amp > B&C alternator puts > out a lot of amps right > after engine start, and > has that capability > indefinitely. Of course, > the regulator maintains > the voltage at a > reasonable level. But > what determines the > alternator amperage > output > during battery charging > and after the battery is > fully charged. It > would seem to me that > during a several hour > flight, the battery could > be over charged and > damaged by the > alternator output. That > apparently > does not happen, but I > don't understand why > not. > > Charlie Brame > RV-6A N11CB > San Antonio > > > > > _- > ============== > ============== > ============== > ============== > AeroElectric-List Email > Forum - > List Features Navigator > to browse > utilities such as List > Un/Subscription, > Download, 7-Day > Browse, Chat, FAQ, > much much more: > http://www.matronics.c > om/Navigator?AeroElect > ric-List > _- > ============== > ============== > ============== > ============== > MATRONICS WEB > FORUMS - > also available via the > Web Forums! > http://forums.matronics > .com > _- > ============== > ============== > ============== > ============== > Contribution Web Site - > generous support! > Matt Dralle, List Admin. > http://www.matronics.c > om/contribution > _- > ============== > ============== > ============== > ============== > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.