---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/11/09: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:38 AM - Re: Rotax-B & C over voltage protection (icrashrc) 2. 05:22 AM - Voltage drop puzzle (Andrew Butler) 3. 06:32 AM - Re: Check this out (Bob Collins) 4. 06:39 AM - Re: Radio Noise (sonex293) 5. 07:14 AM - Re: Voltage drop puzzle (Matt Prather) 6. 07:21 AM - Re: Voltage drop puzzle (Andrew Butler) 7. 07:27 AM - Re: Check this out (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 8. 07:46 AM - Re: Voltage drop puzzle (Jay Hyde) 9. 07:47 AM - Re: Voltage drop puzzle (Andrew Butler) 10. 07:48 AM - Re: Voltage drop puzzle (Bob Lee) 11. 08:21 AM - Re: Re: Rotax-B & C over voltage protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 08:31 AM - Re: Check this out (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 08:49 AM - Re: Voltage drop puzzle (Andrew Butler) 14. 08:49 AM - Re: Voltage drop puzzle (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 09:01 AM - Re: Coil & ECM (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: Magneto Wiring with 2-50 switches and toggle switch starting (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 09:49 AM - Re: Voltage drop puzzle (Jay Hyde) 18. 09:49 AM - Re: Re: Magneto Wiring with 2-50 switches and toggle switch starting (Jay Hyde) 19. 09:56 AM - Re: Check this out (Bob Collins) 20. 10:24 AM - Re: Check this out (Terry Watson) 21. 10:50 AM - Re: Check this out (Bob Collins) 22. 11:10 AM - Re: Re: Radio Noise (Jeff Page) 23. 12:12 PM - Re: Check this out (Michael Pereira) 24. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: Radio Noise (Kelly McMullen) 25. 09:44 PM - Re: Re: Rotax-B & C over voltage protection (rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:32 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Rotax-B & C over voltage protection From: "icrashrc" Bob, Thanks, I'll get one of your over voltage modules on order. Any idea if the Rotax charging system output voltage is adjustable? Scott Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257095#257095 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:19 AM PST US From: Andrew Butler Subject: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle Hello All, I have more or less finished my wiring. I have impelemented Z13/8 on my project. I have a switch to engage the relay that isolates the feed from the SD-8 during normal operations. I have installed a bulb in this circuit to tell me that the relay is engaged. While I have 12V plus on my main bus, I am getting a much lower voltage (the order of 4 volts) through the bulb (I was alerted to this by the bulb being very dim). Why is this? Sure enough I should have a drop through 1N5400 diode that is in the circuit, but surely not that much? Does the relay itself contribute to the drop aswell? Attached is the diagram with a circle around the bulb in question. The circuit is installed as shown. Is this even a problem? The relay engages to the NO position as required when I flip the switch (number 12) and stays there. Best regards, Andrew Butler, RV7 EI-EEO Firewall Forward Galway Ireland. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:36 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Check this out You know, aviation is a way for me to escape politics and have fun. Can we please get off this now. Nobody has ever had their mind changed by a politics thread on the Internet. Let's get back to electrical issues in our planes and leave this other stuff for the talk shows. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Pereira Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 10:04 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Check this out --> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 5:07 PM, S. Ramirez wrote: > What this says, Rick, is that once our business experts and leaders > realize that a great country cannot be great without manufacturing, > they will attempt to restart manufacturing, but we wont have > qualified machinists and other similar craftsman/tradesmen to do it. > We will have to import this technology and expertise, thus creating a > whole new problem. Its too bad that our present leaders were and are > trained in MBA schools to maximize this quarters bottom line and not tomorrows. How about instead of smacking around Joe CEO that we modify our country's business environment ? You know, like reducing corporate taxation since our country has the highest corporate tax rate in the western world. Or maybe reining in the insane environmental regulations that allow non-involved 3rd parties to sue to prevent the building of any kind of industrial infrastructure (like nuke plants or oil refineries for example) for years to decades. Complain about corporate stupidity and bean counters all you want, but, reality is that any company that behaves differently will be put out of business by it's more efficiently operating competitors (or be put out of business by a nationalized company that no longer needs to heed efficiency at all; I still can't believe I have to say that in the United States). If you want different results we need to change the underlying fundamentals that are driving the corporate behaviors we all (including me) find annoying. Sorry for the political content. I do think being mechanically competent is important. But, with all the insanity going on in the US today I can't let certain kinds of rhetoric pass uncommented. And, now that Obama himself is telling me to shut up lest my neighbors report me, I'm super pissed on top of it (I don't mean pissed or even annoyed at Simon, my opinion just differs from his and Simon, as far as I know, isn't trying to oppress me *smirks*). c'ya, Sorry, Michael > > > Simon Ramirez > > Copyright 2009 > > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Richard Girard > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 5:34 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Check this out > > > When my son was in his high school in the suburbs of Seattle, > Washington was busy getting rid of all it's shop classes. When we > complained, the school principal replied that all kids would be > educated to go to college and if they wanted to get into trades they > could go to an industrial arts school afterward. This was when all the > "experts" said we were going to be an "information economy". Funny > thing though, no one could ever answer my question as to what that > information would be? The latest "star"? The latest trivia? We > certainly wouldn't have any information about making things. And now > we don't make so much anymore. Maybe we can sell information about how to ruin an economy by surrendering it to bankers and financiers. > > MHO. > > > Rick Girard > > do not archive > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Terry Watson wrote: > > --> > > I will confess to a strong possibility of prejudice based on my own > > experience growing up on a farm, but I don't understand the use of the > word "orthogonal" in this context. I understand and agree that growing > up poor is a strong motivation to do things for ones self. I did run > across an interesting book that I think is on the very subject Bob was talking about. > I downloaded and read the free sample on my Kindle and will probably > buy and read the book. As an aside, I have discovered the book reviews > on Amazon.com to be a fascinating source of discovery. It's a little > like wandering through a library and sampling books, but all from your > own computer and with in many cases dozens of thoughtful reviews of > the book. This particular book is SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by Matthew > B. Crawford. I think Bob in particular would find it pertinent to his ideas. The link to the book is: > http://tinyurl.com/nrybq5 > > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Ernest Christley > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 12:47 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Check this out > > > > Terry Watson wrote: > >> >> My suggestion about a very large contributing factor to this problem >> is > that >> so few of us are raised on a farm or ranch anymore. Any farm kid >> learns > that >> if something needs doing, you need to be able to do it; when >> something breaks, you need to be able to fix it. To eat, you need to >> plant seeds and assure their growth, or to be willing to slaughter an >> animal you have > known >> all its life. I don't know how you translate this into an urban >> lifestyle where we may be many layers away from the source of what we >> want or need, but it's a great loss if we can't do it. Maybe it's >> just teaching kids the joy of working with their head AND their hands >> at the same time, or the satisfaction of playing with or living in or >> riding in or flying in something they built with their own hands. >> > Nawh, living on a farm is orthogonal. A child just has to grow up > without being handed everything he wants. He has to learn to WANT > things. Then he has to learn that things can be had from one's own hands. > > I grew up poor. Not Ethiopian starvation poor, but if I wanted a > bicycle I had to learn to build it from spare parts that I got from > castaways. I learned to build a bicycle from castaways. I'm no > longer poor by any reasonable definition, but I still can't afford a > certified airplane. If I want one, I have to learn to build it > myself. We'll see in a year or so what sort of student I am. > > -- > Ernest Christley, President > Ernest@TechnicalTakedown.com > > TechnicalTakedown, LLC > www.TechnicalTakedown.com > 101 Steep Bank Dr. > Cary, NC 27518 > (919) 741-9397 > > > ========== > -List" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > http://forums.matronics.com > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:52 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Radio Noise From: "sonex293" I think you are on the right track by using a second radio connected into the aircraft's antenna cable to compare reception and transmission. And even better with a handheld, since you are also isolating the power side of things. Hang in there, you'll get the problem worked out! jpx(at)Qenesis.com wrote: > > I haven't tried anything at the top end, but hopefully will get a chance > to do so this week when I check the antenna cables and antenna by patching > in a handheld. > > Thanks ! > > Jeff Page > Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 -------- Michael Crowder Jabiru 3300A w/ Hyd Lifters AeroCarb w/ #3 needle Sonex N293SX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257118#257118 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:01 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle From: "Matt Prather" > Hello All, > > I have more or less finished my wiring. I have impelemented Z13/8 on my > project. I have a switch to engage the relay that isolates the feed from > the SD-8 during normal operations. I have installed a bulb in this circuit > to tell me that the relay is engaged. > > While I have 12V plus on my main bus, I am getting a much lower voltage > (the order of 4 volts) through the bulb (I was alerted to this by the bulb > being very dim). Why is this? Sure enough I should have a drop through > 1N5400 diode that is in the circuit, but surely not that much? Does the > relay itself contribute to the drop aswell? Attached is the diagram with a > circle around the bulb in question. The circuit is installed as shown. > > Is this even a problem? The relay engages to the NO position as required > when I flip the switch (number 12) and stays there. > > Best regards, > > Andrew Butler, > RV7 EI-EEO > Firewall Forward > Galway Ireland. As drawn, you have the bulb in series with the coil - a voltage divider. This probably isn't a very good thing as the series resistance of the bulb is reducing the current through the coil which will reduce the turn-on margin on the relay. If the bus voltage drops, you might not be able to get the relay to close. Once closed, it will probably stay there until the controlling switch is opened - which is fine. It seems like it's not a good idea to insert anything in the circuit to the coil. If you wanted to monitor the position of the switch you could select a double pole (DPST) switch to control the relay and wire the lamp through the extra pole. Matt- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:01 AM PST US From: Andrew Butler Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle Having just stared at it a while, I realise that I need to take the unreliable bulb out of the circuit. Any suggestions on how I could wire one in to tell me whether or not the circuit is live? Andrew. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Butler" Sent: Tuesday, 11 August, 2009 1:16:11 PM GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal Subject: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle Hello All, I have more or less finished my wiring. I have impelemented Z13/8 on my project. I have a switch to engage the relay that isolates the feed from the SD-8 during normal operations. I have installed a bulb in this circuit to tell me that the relay is engaged. While I have 12V plus on my main bus, I am getting a much lower voltage (the order of 4 volts) through the bulb (I was alerted to this by the bulb being very dim). Why is this? Sure enough I should have a drop through 1N5400 diode that is in the circuit, but surely not that much? Does the relay itself contribute to the drop aswell? Attached is the diagram with a circle around the bulb in question. The circuit is installed as shown. Is this even a problem? The relay engages to the NO position as required when I flip the switch (number 12) and stays there. Best regards, Andrew Butler, RV7 EI-EEO Firewall Forward Galway Ireland. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:20 AM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Check this out An RV of course..Not that I'm biased or anything..:) Frank RV7a...180mph at 7GPH in IMC!...More fuel efficient than the Zodiac..:) Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryMcFarland Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 2:38 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Check this out --> Attaboy Frank, ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:24 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle Hi there, I think that the voltage drop through the relay is the problem. Maybe change the aux power switch to a 2 pole one (a 2-3) and then wire the second pole with a 'clean' 12V from the 'upstream' side of the relay - say from the same terminal as where the yellow wire of the OV crowbar goes to; then through the switch and via the light to ground. Jay -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Butler Sent: 11 August 2009 02:16 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle Hello All, I have more or less finished my wiring. I have impelemented Z13/8 on my project. I have a switch to engage the relay that isolates the feed from the SD-8 during normal operations. I have installed a bulb in this circuit to tell me that the relay is engaged. While I have 12V plus on my main bus, I am getting a much lower voltage (the order of 4 volts) through the bulb (I was alerted to this by the bulb being very dim). Why is this? Sure enough I should have a drop through 1N5400 diode that is in the circuit, but surely not that much? Does the relay itself contribute to the drop aswell? Attached is the diagram with a circle around the bulb in question. The circuit is installed as shown. Is this even a problem? The relay engages to the NO position as required when I flip the switch (number 12) and stays there. Best regards, Andrew Butler, RV7 EI-EEO Firewall Forward Galway Ireland. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:55 AM PST US From: Andrew Butler Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle Thanks Matt. My own bulb went off in my head while thinking on it a bit more and figured just that about the DPST switch. Andrew. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Prather" Sent: Tuesday, 11 August, 2009 2:50:42 PM GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle > Hello All, > > I have more or less finished my wiring. I have impelemented Z13/8 on my > project. I have a switch to engage the relay that isolates the feed from > the SD-8 during normal operations. I have installed a bulb in this circuit > to tell me that the relay is engaged. > > While I have 12V plus on my main bus, I am getting a much lower voltage > (the order of 4 volts) through the bulb (I was alerted to this by the bulb > being very dim). Why is this? Sure enough I should have a drop through > 1N5400 diode that is in the circuit, but surely not that much? Does the > relay itself contribute to the drop aswell? Attached is the diagram with a > circle around the bulb in question. The circuit is installed as shown. > > Is this even a problem? The relay engages to the NO position as required > when I flip the switch (number 12) and stays there. > > Best regards, > > Andrew Butler, > RV7 EI-EEO > Firewall Forward > Galway Ireland. As drawn, you have the bulb in series with the coil - a voltage divider. This probably isn't a very good thing as the series resistance of the bulb is reducing the current through the coil which will reduce the turn-on margin on the relay. If the bus voltage drops, you might not be able to get the relay to close. Once closed, it will probably stay there until the controlling switch is opened - which is fine. It seems like it's not a good idea to insert anything in the circuit to the coil. If you wanted to monitor the position of the switch you could select a double pole (DPST) switch to control the relay and wire the lamp through the extra pole. Matt- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:38 AM PST US From: "Bob Lee" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle Matt wrote: << If you wanted to monitor the position of the switch you could select a double pole (DPST) switch to control the relay and wire the lamp through the extra pole. >> It would be a weak design goal to know the position of the switch. A better goal would be to know the position of the relay. A still better goal would be to know the function the relay controled was working. Lectric Bob has presented an inexpensive and elegant solution to the best design goal here. In a recent thread with the subject: Pitot heaters . . . warn or not, that IS the question, bob posted his solution on the web at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Failure_Detection_and_Annunciation.pdf Hope this helps. Regards, Bob Lee N52BL KR2 Suwanee, GA USA 92% done only 67% to go! ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:43 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Rotax-B & C over voltage protection At 02:35 AM 8/11/2009, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Thanks, I'll get one of your over voltage modules on order. Any idea >if the Rotax charging system output voltage is adjustable? I don't believe it is. I'd like to find the time someday to craft a really modern rectifier/regulator that contains built in OV protection and adjustable regulation set point. I've got too many irons in the fire . . . Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Check this out > > > > >You know, aviation is a way for me to escape politics and have fun. Can we >please get off this now. Nobody has ever had their mind changed by a >politics thread on the Internet. > >Let's get back to electrical issues in our planes and leave this other stuff >for the talk shows. There's a difference between "politics" and observation, study, discussion and observation of conditions that have a direct influence upon our ability to "escape politics and have fun". This is a good example of why we should be wary of "thread creep" in the subject line of our discussions. I'm sure no one on the List wants you to stumble into discussions that do not align with your personal participation goals for the List. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:03 AM PST US From: Andrew Butler Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle Thanks Jay, What about if using the 2-3 switch I connected the light to the live terminal on the capacitor? That would allow me to test the relay in pre-flight by engaging the switch (and checking for illumination) while also allowing me to monitor that I have flipped the switch during flight........ Andrew. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Hyde" Sent: Tuesday, 11 August, 2009 3:25:39 PM GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle Hi there, I think that the voltage drop through the relay is the problem. Maybe change the aux power switch to a 2 pole one (a 2-3) and then wire the second pole with a 'clean' 12V from the 'upstream' side of the relay - say from the same terminal as where the yellow wire of the OV crowbar goes to; then through the switch and via the light to ground. Jay -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Butler Sent: 11 August 2009 02:16 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle Hello All, I have more or less finished my wiring. I have impelemented Z13/8 on my project. I have a switch to engage the relay that isolates the feed from the SD-8 during normal operations. I have installed a bulb in this circuit to tell me that the relay is engaged. While I have 12V plus on my main bus, I am getting a much lower voltage (the order of 4 volts) through the bulb (I was alerted to this by the bulb being very dim). Why is this? Sure enough I should have a drop through 1N5400 diode that is in the circuit, but surely not that much? Does the relay itself contribute to the drop aswell? Attached is the diagram with a circle around the bulb in question. The circuit is installed as shown. Is this even a problem? The relay engages to the NO position as required when I flip the switch (number 12) and stays there. Best regards, Andrew Butler, RV7 EI-EEO Firewall Forward Galway Ireland. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:07 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle At 07:16 AM 8/11/2009, you wrote: >Hello All, > >I have more or less finished my wiring. I have impelemented Z13/8 on >my project. I have a switch to engage the relay that isolates the >feed from the SD-8 during normal operations. I have installed a bulb >in this circuit to tell me that the relay is engaged. > >While I have 12V plus on my main bus, I am getting a much lower >voltage (the order of 4 volts) through the bulb (I was alerted to >this by the bulb being very dim). Why is this? Sure enough I should >have a drop through 1N5400 diode that is in the circuit, but surely >not that much? Does the relay itself contribute to the drop aswell? >Attached is the diagram with a circle around the bulb in question. >The circuit is installed as shown. > >Is this even a problem? The relay engages to the NO position as >required when I flip the switch (number 12) and stays there. I'm surprised that the relay still pulls in but that's a function of bulb size. As others have noted you have the bulb wired incorrectly for the purpose of showing that the relay is "closed". Wired as shown, it only says that the relay coil has some current flowing through it . . . but does not speak to actual connection (or functionality) of the alternator. Further, for you lamp to function as a "relay energized" notification, the bulb needs to be in PARALLEL with the relay coil, not series. May I suggest that your active notification of low voltage is a much better way to report condition of the WHOLE alternator system? The fact that you KNOW the relay is energized is not very informative. There are lots of things that could cause alternator output to be inadequate or completely missing. The fact that bus voltage is too low to avoid discharging the battery (13.0) is the DEFINITIVE indicator of alternator performance. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:49 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Coil & ECM At 06:59 AM 8/8/2009, you wrote: >Is there a method to test an ignition coil and ECM? I thought the >answer might lie with the electric gurus. Randy R. Are there no instructions with the system? What are the symptoms that lead you to believe that testing is needed? Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:08 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Magneto Wiring with 2-50 switches and toggle switch starting At 09:58 AM 8/8/2009, you wrote: > > > > I do have one big question that came up while I was copying the > mag drawings from Z-20. The right mag is shown wired to the switch > differently than the left. I don't know why it is shown like that. > > >Mystery solved. Ian sent me a version "L" of Z-20, which shows the >mag switch wires being identical. I looked through both the rev. 12 >and PPS on Bob's site and it showed "K" as the current version of >the PDF. But then I went to the .dwg files and sure enough, there >was version "L". I don't have the older version on my laptop but I would guess that while the two switches may have be reversed in their connection, the system would still have performed as advertised. The ignition switch needs only to provide continuity to disable the magneto when in the "IGNITION OFF" position. Flipping the wires around on the switch wouldn't make an operational difference. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:03 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle Hey there Andrew, That would work fine- remember though that all you really are indicating is that the pole on the switch is working :-) Hopefully the other pole is working as well... The LV monitoring that Bob describes is also a good idea- normally this is part of the Z13/8 circuit and perhaps you plan to include it in any case. On the Sling I used the MGL EFIS to monitor the voltage; you can set an alarm that can also give you a digital output to switch something. If you are using an EFIS perhaps it has similar features? If not I would use the LV warning cct and light. Another idea is to reverse the wiring for the S704-1 relay and use the normally closed contact to illuminate a light when the relay is de-energised (see the attached diagram); to my mind this also tells you that the dynamo is producing a voltage when it's not in use. Jay -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Butler Sent: 11 August 2009 05:46 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle Thanks Jay, What about if using the 2-3 switch I connected the light to the live terminal on the capacitor? That would allow me to test the relay in pre-flight by engaging the switch (and checking for illumination) while also allowing me to monitor that I have flipped the switch during flight........ Andrew. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Hyde" Sent: Tuesday, 11 August, 2009 3:25:39 PM GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle Hi there, I think that the voltage drop through the relay is the problem. Maybe change the aux power switch to a 2 pole one (a 2-3) and then wire the second pole with a 'clean' 12V from the 'upstream' side of the relay - say from the same terminal as where the yellow wire of the OV crowbar goes to; then through the switch and via the light to ground. Jay -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Butler Sent: 11 August 2009 02:16 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop puzzle Hello All, I have more or less finished my wiring. I have impelemented Z13/8 on my project. I have a switch to engage the relay that isolates the feed from the SD-8 during normal operations. I have installed a bulb in this circuit to tell me that the relay is engaged. While I have 12V plus on my main bus, I am getting a much lower voltage (the order of 4 volts) through the bulb (I was alerted to this by the bulb being very dim). Why is this? Sure enough I should have a drop through 1N5400 diode that is in the circuit, but surely not that much? Does the relay itself contribute to the drop aswell? Attached is the diagram with a circle around the bulb in question. The circuit is installed as shown. Is this even a problem? The relay engages to the NO position as required when I flip the switch (number 12) and stays there. Best regards, Andrew Butler, RV7 EI-EEO Firewall Forward Galway Ireland. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:37 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Magneto Wiring with 2-50 switches and toggle switch starting Bob, I think that you issued the newer version because in the older version one switch earthed/ grounded the one magneto in the on position... (in South Africa we tend to use the word 'earth' as opposed to 'ground'- helps to explain why there is no electricity on the moon- 's because there's no earth! :-) ) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: 11 August 2009 05:55 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Magneto Wiring with 2-50 switches and toggle switch starting At 09:58 AM 8/8/2009, you wrote: > > > > I do have one big question that came up while I was copying the > mag drawings from Z-20. The right mag is shown wired to the switch > differently than the left. I don't know why it is shown like that. > > >Mystery solved. Ian sent me a version "L" of Z-20, which shows the >mag switch wires being identical. I looked through both the rev. 12 >and PPS on Bob's site and it showed "K" as the current version of >the PDF. But then I went to the .dwg files and sure enough, there >was version "L". I don't have the older version on my laptop but I would guess that while the two switches may have be reversed in their connection, the system would still have performed as advertised. The ignition switch needs only to provide continuity to disable the magneto when in the "IGNITION OFF" position. Flipping the wires around on the switch wouldn't make an operational difference. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:26 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Check this out Not criticizing your keen observation at all. Just lamenting where the conversation went after that. There are a million places to get people's opinions on Obama or the government's tax policy. But there's only one place to get Bob Nuckholls' excellent advice (and observations). -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 10:31 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Check this out --> > > > > >You know, aviation is a way for me to escape politics and have fun. Can >we please get off this now. Nobody has ever had their mind changed by a >politics thread on the Internet. > >Let's get back to electrical issues in our planes and leave this other >stuff for the talk shows. There's a difference between "politics" and observation, study, discussion and observation of conditions that have a direct influence upon our ability to "escape politics and have fun". This is a good example of why we should be wary of "thread creep" in the subject line of our discussions. I'm sure no one on the List wants you to stumble into discussions that do not align with your personal participation goals for the List. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:00 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Check this out Just tune it out with your delete key, Bob. We don't have to listen to every tune or program on our favorite radio station and we don't have to follow every thread on the AeroElectric List. It doesn't stop anyone from talking about airplane electrics. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 6:11 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Check this out You know, aviation is a way for me to escape politics and have fun. Can we please get off this now. Nobody has ever had their mind changed by a politics thread on the Internet. Let's get back to electrical issues in our planes and leave this other stuff for the talk shows. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Pereira Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 10:04 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Check this out --> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 5:07 PM, S. Ramirez wrote: > What this says, Rick, is that once our business experts and leaders > realize that a great country cannot be great without manufacturing, > they will attempt to restart manufacturing, but we wont have > qualified machinists and other similar craftsman/tradesmen to do it. > We will have to import this technology and expertise, thus creating a > whole new problem. Its too bad that our present leaders were and are > trained in MBA schools to maximize this quarters bottom line and not tomorrows. How about instead of smacking around Joe CEO that we modify our country's business environment ? You know, like reducing corporate taxation since our country has the highest corporate tax rate in the western world. Or maybe reining in the insane environmental regulations that allow non-involved 3rd parties to sue to prevent the building of any kind of industrial infrastructure (like nuke plants or oil refineries for example) for years to decades. Complain about corporate stupidity and bean counters all you want, but, reality is that any company that behaves differently will be put out of business by it's more efficiently operating competitors (or be put out of business by a nationalized company that no longer needs to heed efficiency at all; I still can't believe I have to say that in the United States). If you want different results we need to change the underlying fundamentals that are driving the corporate behaviors we all (including me) find annoying. Sorry for the political content. I do think being mechanically competent is important. But, with all the insanity going on in the US today I can't let certain kinds of rhetoric pass uncommented. And, now that Obama himself is telling me to shut up lest my neighbors report me, I'm super pissed on top of it (I don't mean pissed or even annoyed at Simon, my opinion just differs from his and Simon, as far as I know, isn't trying to oppress me *smirks*). c'ya, Sorry, Michael > > > Simon Ramirez > > Copyright 2009 > > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Richard Girard > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 5:34 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Check this out > > > When my son was in his high school in the suburbs of Seattle, > Washington was busy getting rid of all it's shop classes. When we > complained, the school principal replied that all kids would be > educated to go to college and if they wanted to get into trades they > could go to an industrial arts school afterward. This was when all the > "experts" said we were going to be an "information economy". Funny > thing though, no one could ever answer my question as to what that > information would be? The latest "star"? The latest trivia? We > certainly wouldn't have any information about making things. And now > we don't make so much anymore. Maybe we can sell information about how to ruin an economy by surrendering it to bankers and financiers. > > MHO. > > > Rick Girard > > do not archive > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Terry Watson wrote: > > --> > > I will confess to a strong possibility of prejudice based on my own > > experience growing up on a farm, but I don't understand the use of the > word "orthogonal" in this context. I understand and agree that growing > up poor is a strong motivation to do things for ones self. I did run > across an interesting book that I think is on the very subject Bob was talking about. > I downloaded and read the free sample on my Kindle and will probably > buy and read the book. As an aside, I have discovered the book reviews > on Amazon.com to be a fascinating source of discovery. It's a little > like wandering through a library and sampling books, but all from your > own computer and with in many cases dozens of thoughtful reviews of > the book. This particular book is SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by Matthew > B. Crawford. I think Bob in particular would find it pertinent to his ideas. The link to the book is: > http://tinyurl.com/nrybq5 > > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Ernest Christley > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 12:47 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Check this out > > > > Terry Watson wrote: > >> >> My suggestion about a very large contributing factor to this problem >> is > that >> so few of us are raised on a farm or ranch anymore. Any farm kid >> learns > that >> if something needs doing, you need to be able to do it; when >> something breaks, you need to be able to fix it. To eat, you need to >> plant seeds and assure their growth, or to be willing to slaughter an >> animal you have > known >> all its life. I don't know how you translate this into an urban >> lifestyle where we may be many layers away from the source of what we >> want or need, but it's a great loss if we can't do it. Maybe it's >> just teaching kids the joy of working with their head AND their hands >> at the same time, or the satisfaction of playing with or living in or >> riding in or flying in something they built with their own hands. >> > Nawh, living on a farm is orthogonal. A child just has to grow up > without being handed everything he wants. He has to learn to WANT > things. Then he has to learn that things can be had from one's own hands. > > I grew up poor. Not Ethiopian starvation poor, but if I wanted a > bicycle I had to learn to build it from spare parts that I got from > castaways. I learned to build a bicycle from castaways. I'm no > longer poor by any reasonable definition, but I still can't afford a > certified airplane. If I want one, I have to learn to build it > myself. We'll see in a year or so what sort of student I am. > > -- > Ernest Christley, President > Ernest@TechnicalTakedown.com > > TechnicalTakedown, LLC > www.TechnicalTakedown.com > 101 Steep Bank Dr. > Cary, NC 27518 > (919) 741-9397 > > > ========== > -List" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > http://forums.matronics.com > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:57 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Check this out OK, skip it. Forget I said anything. No sense opening up a whole new front. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:22 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Check this out --> Just tune it out with your delete key, Bob. We don't have to listen to every tune or program on our favorite radio station and we don't have to follow every thread on the AeroElectric List. It doesn't stop anyone from talking about airplane electrics. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 6:11 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Check this out You know, aviation is a way for me to escape politics and have fun. Can we please get off this now. Nobody has ever had their mind changed by a politics thread on the Internet. Let's get back to electrical issues in our planes and leave this other stuff for the talk shows. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Pereira Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 10:04 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Check this out --> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 5:07 PM, S. Ramirez wrote: > What this says, Rick, is that once our business experts and leaders > realize that a great country cannot be great without manufacturing, > they will attempt to restart manufacturing, but we wont have > qualified machinists and other similar craftsman/tradesmen to do it. > We will have to import this technology and expertise, thus creating a > whole new problem. Its too bad that our present leaders were and are > trained in MBA schools to maximize this quarters bottom line and not tomorrows. How about instead of smacking around Joe CEO that we modify our country's business environment ? You know, like reducing corporate taxation since our country has the highest corporate tax rate in the western world. Or maybe reining in the insane environmental regulations that allow non-involved 3rd parties to sue to prevent the building of any kind of industrial infrastructure (like nuke plants or oil refineries for example) for years to decades. Complain about corporate stupidity and bean counters all you want, but, reality is that any company that behaves differently will be put out of business by it's more efficiently operating competitors (or be put out of business by a nationalized company that no longer needs to heed efficiency at all; I still can't believe I have to say that in the United States). If you want different results we need to change the underlying fundamentals that are driving the corporate behaviors we all (including me) find annoying. Sorry for the political content. I do think being mechanically competent is important. But, with all the insanity going on in the US today I can't let certain kinds of rhetoric pass uncommented. And, now that Obama himself is telling me to shut up lest my neighbors report me, I'm super pissed on top of it (I don't mean pissed or even annoyed at Simon, my opinion just differs from his and Simon, as far as I know, isn't trying to oppress me *smirks*). c'ya, Sorry, Michael > > > Simon Ramirez > > Copyright 2009 > > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Richard Girard > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 5:34 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Check this out > > > When my son was in his high school in the suburbs of Seattle, > Washington was busy getting rid of all it's shop classes. When we > complained, the school principal replied that all kids would be > educated to go to college and if they wanted to get into trades they > could go to an industrial arts school afterward. This was when all the > "experts" said we were going to be an "information economy". Funny > thing though, no one could ever answer my question as to what that > information would be? The latest "star"? The latest trivia? We > certainly wouldn't have any information about making things. And now > we don't make so much anymore. Maybe we can sell information about how > to ruin an economy by surrendering it to bankers and financiers. > > MHO. > > > Rick Girard > > do not archive > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Terry Watson wrote: > > --> > > I will confess to a strong possibility of prejudice based on my own > > experience growing up on a farm, but I don't understand the use of the > word "orthogonal" in this context. I understand and agree that growing > up poor is a strong motivation to do things for ones self. I did run > across an interesting book that I think is on the very subject Bob was talking about. > I downloaded and read the free sample on my Kindle and will probably > buy and read the book. As an aside, I have discovered the book reviews > on Amazon.com to be a fascinating source of discovery. It's a little > like wandering through a library and sampling books, but all from your > own computer and with in many cases dozens of thoughtful reviews of > the book. This particular book is SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by Matthew > B. Crawford. I think Bob in particular would find it pertinent to his ideas. The link to the book is: > http://tinyurl.com/nrybq5 > > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Ernest Christley > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 12:47 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Check this out > > > > Terry Watson wrote: > >> >> My suggestion about a very large contributing factor to this problem >> is > that >> so few of us are raised on a farm or ranch anymore. Any farm kid >> learns > that >> if something needs doing, you need to be able to do it; when >> something breaks, you need to be able to fix it. To eat, you need to >> plant seeds and assure their growth, or to be willing to slaughter an >> animal you have > known >> all its life. I don't know how you translate this into an urban >> lifestyle where we may be many layers away from the source of what we >> want or need, but it's a great loss if we can't do it. Maybe it's >> just teaching kids the joy of working with their head AND their hands >> at the same time, or the satisfaction of playing with or living in or >> riding in or flying in something they built with their own hands. >> > Nawh, living on a farm is orthogonal. A child just has to grow up > without being handed everything he wants. He has to learn to WANT > things. Then he has to learn that things can be had from one's own hands. > > I grew up poor. Not Ethiopian starvation poor, but if I wanted a > bicycle I had to learn to build it from spare parts that I got from > castaways. I learned to build a bicycle from castaways. I'm no > longer poor by any reasonable definition, but I still can't afford a > certified airplane. If I want one, I have to learn to build it > myself. We'll see in a year or so what sort of student I am. > > -- > Ernest Christley, President > Ernest@TechnicalTakedown.com > > TechnicalTakedown, LLC > www.TechnicalTakedown.com > 101 Steep Bank Dr. > Cary, NC 27518 > (919) 741-9397 > > > ========== > -List" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > http://forums.matronics.com > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:47 AM PST US From: "Jeff Page" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Radio Noise > Two suggestions. If possible, find another aircraft with same model > radio, that you can swap yours into, and see how it performs. The owner of the aircraft is going to ask the avionics shop if they have another we can test with. I am not hopeful. > Check your antenna cable thoroughly, substitute another cable and > antenna if possible. The owner spent $1000 to have another antenna and cable installed on the aircraft. All but the soldered on pigtail cable at the radio rack was installed new. The pigtail was examined and a poor solder joint redone. I plan to make a patch cable that we can use to connect a handheld right to the jack in the radio rack to test all of it. Something is truly weird, since connecting and disconnecting the antenna makes no difference at all in the reception. > turn coordinator or turn and bank are normally wired directly to main > bus to be always powered. Such as basic panel that there are no electrical devices like this in the plane. > I believe you said the radio was bench tested and found to be operational. > If this is the case, then from your description of the problem, it appears > that it is either the (1) antenna and/or cable, (2) power/ground wiring, or > (3) mike/speaker wiring. I am following up on the antenna cable first, since disconnecting it has no effect at all, which seems very strange. We isolated the headset jacks at the panel the other day without improvement. If we are unable to solve the problem from the antenna side of it, it will probably be faster to just rewire the plane than to try to follow all the old wires to see if they are connected to the right place. Thanks for everyone's suggestions. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:53 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Check this out From: Michael Pereira Bob, I would agree with you, but, i'm tired of small little things getting introduced then people like me getting called on answering it. Sorry, i'll be happy to shutup, but i'm not going to restrain myself from civil responses now. c'ya, Michael On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 6:11 AM, Bob Collins wrote: > > You know, aviation is a way for me to escape politics and have fun. Can we > please get off this now. Nobody has ever had their mind changed by a > politics thread on the Internet. > > Let's get back to electrical issues in our planes and leave this other stuff > for the talk shows. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael > Pereira > Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 10:04 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Check this out > > --> > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 5:07 PM, S. Ramirez wrote: >> What this says, Rick, is that once our business experts and leaders >> realize that a great country cannot be great without manufacturing, >> they will attempt to restart manufacturing, but we wont have >> qualified machinists and other similar craftsman/tradesmen to do it. >> We will have to import this technology and expertise, thus creating a >> whole new problem. Its too bad that our present leaders were and are >> trained in MBA schools to maximize this quarters bottom line and not > tomorrows. > > How about instead of smacking around Joe CEO that we modify our country's > business environment ? You know, like reducing corporate taxation since our > country has the highest corporate tax rate in the western world. Or maybe > reining in the insane environmental regulations that allow non-involved 3rd > parties to sue to prevent the building of any kind of industrial > infrastructure (like nuke plants or oil refineries for example) for years to > decades. > > Complain about corporate stupidity and bean counters all you want, but, > reality is that any company that behaves differently will be put out of > business by it's more efficiently operating competitors (or be put out of > business by a nationalized company that no longer needs to heed efficiency > at all; I still can't believe I have to say that in the United States). > > If you want different results we need to change the underlying fundamentals > that are driving the corporate behaviors we all (including me) find > annoying. > > Sorry for the political content. I do think being mechanically competent is > important. > But, with all the insanity going on in the US today I can't let certain > kinds of rhetoric pass uncommented. And, now that Obama himself is telling > me to shut up lest my neighbors report me, I'm super pissed on top of it (I > don't mean pissed or even annoyed at Simon, my opinion just differs from his > and Simon, as far as I know, isn't trying to oppress me *smirks*). > > c'ya, > Sorry, > Michael > > >> >> >> >> Simon Ramirez >> >> Copyright 2009 >> >> >> >> >> >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> Richard Girard >> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 5:34 PM >> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Check this out >> >> >> >> When my son was in his high school in the suburbs of Seattle, >> Washington was busy getting rid of all it's shop classes. When we >> complained, the school principal replied that all kids would be >> educated to go to college and if they wanted to get into trades they >> could go to an industrial arts school afterward. This was when all the >> "experts" said we were going to be an "information economy". Funny >> thing though, no one could ever answer my question as to what that >> information would be? The latest "star"? The latest trivia? We >> certainly wouldn't have any information about making things. And now >> we don't make so much anymore. Maybe we can sell information about how to > ruin an economy by surrendering it to bankers and financiers. >> >> MHO. >> >> >> >> Rick Girard >> >> do not archive >> >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Terry Watson wrote: >> >> --> >> >> I will confess to a strong possibility of prejudice based on my own >> >> experience growing up on a farm, but I don't understand the use of the >> word "orthogonal" in this context. I understand and agree that growing >> up poor is a strong motivation to do things for ones self. I did run >> across an interesting book that I think is on the very subject Bob was > talking about. >> I downloaded and read the free sample on my Kindle and will probably >> buy and read the book. As an aside, I have discovered the book reviews >> on Amazon.com to be a fascinating source of discovery. It's a little >> like wandering through a library and sampling books, but all from your >> own computer and with in many cases dozens of thoughtful reviews of >> the book. This particular book is SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by Matthew >> B. Crawford. I think Bob in particular would find it pertinent to his > ideas. The link to the book is: >> http://tinyurl.com/nrybq5 >> >> Terry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> Ernest Christley >> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 12:47 PM >> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Check this out >> >> >> >> Terry Watson wrote: >> >>> >>> My suggestion about a very large contributing factor to this problem >>> is >> that >>> so few of us are raised on a farm or ranch anymore. Any farm kid >>> learns >> that >>> if something needs doing, you need to be able to do it; when >>> something breaks, you need to be able to fix it. To eat, you need to >>> plant seeds and assure their growth, or to be willing to slaughter an >>> animal you have >> known >>> all its life. I don't know how you translate this into an urban >>> lifestyle where we may be many layers away from the source of what we >>> want or need, but it's a great loss if we can't do it. Maybe it's >>> just teaching kids the joy of working with their head AND their hands >>> at the same time, or the satisfaction of playing with or living in or >>> riding in or flying in something they built with their own hands. >>> >> Nawh, living on a farm is orthogonal. A child just has to grow up >> without being handed everything he wants. He has to learn to WANT >> things. Then he has to learn that things can be had from one's own hands. >> >> I grew up poor. Not Ethiopian starvation poor, but if I wanted a >> bicycle I had to learn to build it from spare parts that I got from >> castaways. I learned to build a bicycle from castaways. I'm no >> longer poor by any reasonable definition, but I still can't afford a >> certified airplane. If I want one, I have to learn to build it >> myself. We'll see in a year or so what sort of student I am. >> >> -- >> Ernest Christley, President >> Ernest@TechnicalTakedown.com >> >> TechnicalTakedown, LLC >> www.TechnicalTakedown.com >> 101 Steep Bank Dr. >> Cary, NC 27518 >> (919) 741-9397 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> -List" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> >> http://forums.matronics.com >> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:32 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Radio Noise You want another aircraft with the same model radio that works okay. NOT to test his radio in your aircraft, but to test YOUR radio in his airplane. Completely eliminates any install issues with your aircraft and isolates on the radio itself. If behavior goes away in second airplane, the problem is your install. If not, it is your radio. Jeff Page wrote: > >> Two suggestions. If possible, find another aircraft with same model >> radio, that you can swap yours into, and see how it performs. > > The owner of the aircraft is going to ask the avionics shop if they have > another we can test with. I am not hopeful. > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Rotax-B & C over voltage protection From: rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US Hi Bobs "Any idea f the Rotax charging system output voltage is adjustable?' "I don't believe it is." I mentioned this in the past (Bob I think you said it has a good chance of doing as advertised),I read a post in the Europa newsgroup how one can increase setpoint on Ducati regulator (others as well). I plan to do this as Ducati factory setpoint is lower thanI would like for PC545 Odyssey. Below is the post from Europa newsgroup, havn't tried it yet though. Ron Parigoris "I also have that Ducati-thing on the other alternator. Guess I have to put a diode in series with its sense lead to crank up the voltage somewhat." Good idea to increase setpoint if you can. Where exactly would you put diode in circuit? What value diode? Most regulators have multiple 12 Volt connection points. So does the Ducati regulator. One of these 12 Volt points (the one labeled 'C') has the sole purpose of measuring the voltage. You can connect this directly to the adjacent connector (B, or R, which carries the actual output) as is often done, so it measures its own output, but a more correct way is to connect it directly to the battery, so that any voltage drop over the feeder cable is corrected. Suppose you want to have a voltage over the battery of 13.7 Volts, and the cables have a loss of 0.5 Volt, then connected in this way the regulator will crank up the voltage until it sees 13.7 Volts at the battery, i.e. it will output 14.2 Volts to correct the voltage drop over the main cable. Ok, I guess almost nobody does this as most people don't know about it. BTW, The regulator for the SD20S alternator has a similar option. You can however do more with this if you are creative. A standard diode, like a 1N400x, has a forward voltage drop of about 0.6 / 0.7 Volts. So, if you put this diode in series with the wire connected to the C, the regulator will see 0.7 Volts less than the actual voltage. It will therefor output more to correct for this condition. With other words, the output will increase with 0.7 Volts. The diode will not carry any significant current, any rating will suffice. You could put multiple diodes in series if you want to have a multiple of 0.7 Volts. A Skottky diode has a forward drop of about 0.2 Volts. You can also use a resistor divider to increase the output with any value, but keep in mind that a resistor also divides the voltage fluctuations while a diode is absolute, so using a resistor divider is somewhat less stable. Another trick is to use a temperature sensitive resistor, so the regulator will adjust the voltage according to the temperature, something that is highly appreciated by the battery. -- Frans Veldman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.