---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/12/09: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:10 AM - Re: Rotax-B & C over voltage protection (icrashrc) 2. 05:06 AM - Re: Radio Noise (N395V) 3. 08:50 AM - Re: Re: Radio Noise (Jim McBurney) 4. 09:37 AM - Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges (Speedy11@aol.com) 5. 01:57 PM - Re: Re: Rotax-B & C over voltage protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 02:08 PM - Re: Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 03:17 PM - Re: Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges (paul wilson) 8. 03:33 PM - Re: Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges (Bill Bradburry) 9. 04:45 PM - Boot from USB (viewers) 10. 04:48 PM - Re: Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges (Matt Prather) 11. 11:08 PM - Why3 different alt disconnect relay wiring in Z schematics? (messydeer) 12. 11:39 PM - Icom 200 (luigit@freemail.it) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:10:54 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Rotax-B & C over voltage protection From: "icrashrc" If you build it they will come. nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 02:35 AM 8/11/2009, you wrote: > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > Thanks, I'll get one of your over voltage modules on order. Any idea > > if the Rotax charging system output voltage is adjustable? > > > > > > I don't believe it is. I'd like to find the time > someday to craft a really modern rectifier/regulator > that contains built in OV protection and adjustable > regulation set point. I've got too many irons in > the fire . . . > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- -------- Scott www.ill-EagleAviation.com do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257261#257261 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:12 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Radio Noise From: "N395V" > } I think your friend suffers from what I consider to be the most common cause > } of dissatisfaction with VHF COMM performance in OBAM aircraft... unrealistic > } expectations! > I think he suffers from an equipment or installation problem. I have owned and flown several OBAM aircraft and they all have crystal clear reception and transmission over a good distance. Keep troubleshooting till it works as it should. -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257272#257272 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:41 AM PST US From: Jim McBurney Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Radio Noise Hi, Jeff, Is the radio's rf connector making contact with the jack in the rack? Hard to check, but rather important. Blue skies and tailwinds to all Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk diesel 90% done 120% left ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:40 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges Bob, These fuel sensors are a great idea. I wish I had seen them while building. I could have installed three of them in the wing root of each tank - one at "wing root full," one at "wing root half," and one at "wing root" empty (maybe two gal remaining). They would have been easy to calibrate and label on the panel. Then I would know exactly the fuel remaining at those levels. The Princeton Capacitance Sensors I bought and connected to the AF-3400 EM do not work. I've calibrated them 7 times and they still fluctuate between full and 8 gallons when the tanks are full and fluctuate wildly when less than full. Perhaps I've done something wrong in the calibration - I know most errors are installation or operator errors - but, I tried to follow the AF-3400 instructions accurately. Anyway, I may try to retro fit the Gem sensors. Stan Sutterfield http://www.gemssensors.com/content.aspx?id=282 This is the no-brainer, dead-nuts accurate low liquid lever sensing method I know of. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:57:49 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Rotax-B & C over voltage protection At 11:41 PM 8/11/2009, you wrote: >Hi Bobs > >"Any idea f the Rotax charging system output voltage is adjustable?' > >"I don't believe it is." > >I mentioned this in the past (Bob I think you said it has a good >chance of doing as advertised), I read a post in the Europa >newsgroup how one can increase setpoint on Ducati regulator (others >as well). I plan to do this as Ducati factory setpoint is lower than >I would like for PC545 Odyssey. > >Below is the post from Europa newsgroup, havn't tried it yet though. > A standard diode, > like a 1N400x, has a forward voltage drop of about 0.6 / 0.7 Volts. So, > if you put this diode in series with the wire connected to the C, the > regulator will see 0.7 Volts less than the actual voltage. It will > therefor output more to correct for this condition. With other words, > the output will increase with 0.7 Volts. That's a pretty standard work-around for boosting the setpoint on an unadjustable regulator. This must be applied with caution on some regulators. For example, if the diode were used to jack up the voltage on an regulator wound-field alternator, where field supply and voltage sense wires share the path. Adding external components in shared lines can contribute to or cause regulation instability. When it is known that the sense line current is low (100 ma or less) then adding diodes or even series resistors to adjust the setpoint upward is often quite successful. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:02 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges At 11:32 AM 8/12/2009, you wrote: >Bob, >These fuel sensors are a great idea. I wish I had seen them while >building. I could have installed three of them in the wing root of >each tank - one at "wing root full," one at "wing root half," and >one at "wing root" empty (maybe two gal remaining). They would have >been easy to calibrate and label on the panel. Then I would know >exactly the fuel remaining at those levels. >The Princeton Capacitance Sensors I bought and connected to the >AF-3400 EM do not work. I've calibrated them 7 times and they still >fluctuate between full and 8 gallons when the tanks are full and >fluctuate wildly when less than full. Perhaps I've done something >wrong in the calibration - I know most errors are installation or >operator errors - but, I tried to follow the AF-3400 instructions accurately. >Anyway, I may try to retro fit the Gem sensors. I'm sorry to hear that the capacity sensors are not performing for you. I presume you've already had discussions with the factory. These SHOULD be pretty stable. There are design issues with respect to variable dielectric constant of the fuel. But this is a calibration error, not a dynamic level sensing problem. I've been fiddling with a processor based capacity gaging amplifier for a TC application. Having a micro-controller in the system opens a lot of interesting doors including calibrating to the as-installed sensor and tank combination and compensating for temperature and dielectric constant as well. Depending on what I learn with this program, I may have a similarly agile capacity fuel gage amplifier product to offer. However, even if our latest-n-greatest gage makes it to production, it will still be augmented with electro-optic, dip-sticks for absolute low-liquid warning. I did the first such sensors to find their way onto Beech products about 1980. http://www.electromech.com/liquidlevel3RED.html They've now been produced in dozens of configurations and tens of thousands of fielded product. One of my more prolific brainstorms. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:17:34 PM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges In my past life we used 3 fixed point ultrasonic sensors on the bottom of the rocket tanks. It took 3 to overcome the slosh issues. IMO, fixed point sensors are not workable in a plane. An analog design is required. The best solution I have seen and I use is a simple boat turbine flow meter made by Northstar. The gauge reads gal/hour, gal remaining, and gal used. It has to be updated each time fuel is added. It is accurate after the initial fill. One still has to remember how many gallons is safe when the tank gets low. Many homebuilts use this product with success. No issues with slosh. I am trying the CruzPro gauge for my truck which allows many cal points and the gauge reads the same stuff as the Northstar. This setup uses the stock resistance gauge and is still inaccurate due to slosh and tilt. However there is some damping in the float mechanism. Paul ================ >At 11:32 AM 8/12/2009, you wrote: >>Bob, >>These fuel sensors are a great idea. I wish I had seen them while >>building. I could have installed three of them in the wing root of >>each tank - one at "wing root full," one at "wing root half," and >>one at "wing root" empty (maybe two gal remaining). They would >>have been easy to calibrate and label on the panel. Then I would >>know exactly the fuel remaining at those levels. >>The Princeton Capacitance Sensors I bought and connected to the >>AF-3400 EM do not work. I've calibrated them 7 times and they >>still fluctuate between full and 8 gallons when the tanks are full >>and fluctuate wildly when less than full. Perhaps I've done >>something wrong in the calibration - I know most errors are >>installation or operator errors - but, I tried to follow the >>AF-3400 instructions accurately. >>Anyway, I may try to retro fit the Gem sensors. > > I'm sorry to hear that the capacity sensors are > not performing for you. I presume you've already > had discussions with the factory. These SHOULD be > pretty stable. There are design issues with respect > to variable dielectric constant of the fuel. But > this is a calibration error, not a dynamic level > sensing problem. > > I've been fiddling with a processor based capacity > gaging amplifier for a TC application. Having a > micro-controller in the system opens a lot of interesting > doors including calibrating to the as-installed > sensor and tank combination and compensating for > temperature and dielectric constant as well. > > Depending on what I learn with this program, I may > have a similarly agile capacity fuel gage amplifier > product to offer. However, even if our latest-n-greatest > gage makes it to production, it will still be augmented > with electro-optic, dip-sticks for absolute low-liquid > warning. I did the first such sensors to find their > way onto Beech products about 1980. > >http://www.electromech.com/liquidlevel3RED.html > > They've now been produced in dozens of configurations > and tens of thousands of fielded product. One of > my more prolific brainstorms. > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:33:49 PM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges I have the Princeton capacitance sensors in my Lancair. I have not yet calbrated them, but I would be very shocked if the fuel slosh didn=92t cause a lot of errors. The sensors are about 6 feet long and must be no more than 20 degrees off of horizontal. Fuel sloshing would move a great distance up and down the tubes. I have them in there because FAA says I need a fuel guage. I will check the level visually before each flight and refill when I should be at =BC to =BD tank. Reguardless of what the fuel gage says! Bill B _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 5:03 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges At 11:32 AM 8/12/2009, you wrote: Bob, These fuel sensors are a great idea. I wish I had seen them while building. I could have installed three of them in the wing root of each tank - one at "wing root full," one at "wing root half," and one at "wing root" empty (maybe two gal remaining). They would have been easy to calibrate and label on the panel. Then I would know exactly the fuel remaining at those levels. The Princeton Capacitance Sensors I bought and connected to the AF-3400 EM do not work. I've calibrated them 7 times and they still fluctuate between full and 8 gallons when the tanks are full and fluctuate wildly when less than full. Perhaps I've done something wrong in the calibration - I know most errors are installation or operator errors - but, I tried to follow the AF-3400 instructions accurately. Anyway, I may try to retro fit the Gem sensors. I'm sorry to hear that the capacity sensors are not performing for you. I presume you've already had discussions with the factory. These SHOULD be pretty stable. There are design issues with respect to variable dielectric constant of the fuel. But this is a calibration error, not a dynamic level sensing problem. I've been fiddling with a processor based capacity gaging amplifier for a TC application. Having a micro-controller in the system opens a lot of interesting doors including calibrating to the as-installed sensor and tank combination and compensating for temperature and dielectric constant as well. Depending on what I learn with this program, I may have a similarly agile capacity fuel gage amplifier product to offer. However, even if our latest-n-greatest gage makes it to production, it will still be augmented with electro-optic, dip-sticks for absolute low-liquid warning. I did the first such sensors to find their way onto Beech products about 1980. http://www.electromech.com/liquidlevel3RED.html They've now been produced in dozens of configurations and tens of thousands of fielded product. One of my more prolific brainstorms. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:15 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Boot from USB From: "viewers" Trying to boot from USB Using step by step info from http://bambukawiki.net/index.php?title=Usb_boot The question is add my USB boot stick as and additional option to OS choose text menu at PC startup Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257381#257381 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:52 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges From: "Matt Prather" Seems like sloshing can be dealt with either/both mechanically or/and electrically: - A restriction or a baffle can be used to slow the flow of fuel into and out of the tube(s). I'd be slightly surprised if the manufacturer didn't include this. - A low pass filter can be used to average and damp the display in response to the raw input from the sensor. Again, I'd be slightly surprised if the manufacturer didn't include this. Regards, Matt- > I have the Princeton capacitance sensors in my Lancair. I have not yet > calbrated them, but I would be very shocked if the fuel slosh didnt cause > a > lot of errors. The sensors are about 6 feet long and must be no more than > 20 degrees off of horizontal. Fuel sloshing would move a great distance > up > and down the tubes. I have them in there because FAA says I need a fuel > guage. I will check the level visually before each flight and refill when > I > should be at to tank. Reguardless of what the fuel gage says! > > > Bill B > > > _____ > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert > L. > Nuckolls, III > Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 5:03 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges > > At 11:32 AM 8/12/2009, you wrote: > > > Bob, > These fuel sensors are a great idea. I wish I had seen them while > building. > I could have installed three of them in the wing root of each tank - one > at > "wing root full," one at "wing root half," and one at "wing root" empty > (maybe two gal remaining). They would have been easy to calibrate and > label > on the panel. Then I would know exactly the fuel remaining at those > levels. > The Princeton Capacitance Sensors I bought and connected to the AF-3400 EM > do not work. I've calibrated them 7 times and they still fluctuate > between > full and 8 gallons when the tanks are full and fluctuate wildly when less > than full. Perhaps I've done something wrong in the calibration - I know > most errors are installation or operator errors - but, I tried to follow > the > AF-3400 instructions accurately. > Anyway, I may try to retro fit the Gem sensors. > > > I'm sorry to hear that the capacity sensors are > not performing for you. I presume you've already > had discussions with the factory. These SHOULD be > pretty stable. There are design issues with respect > to variable dielectric constant of the fuel. But > this is a calibration error, not a dynamic level > sensing problem. > > I've been fiddling with a processor based capacity > gaging amplifier for a TC application. Having a > micro-controller in the system opens a lot of interesting > doors including calibrating to the as-installed > sensor and tank combination and compensating for > temperature and dielectric constant as well. > > Depending on what I learn with this program, I may > have a similarly agile capacity fuel gage amplifier > product to offer. However, even if our latest-n-greatest > gage makes it to production, it will still be augmented > with electro-optic, dip-sticks for absolute low-liquid > warning. I did the first such sensors to find their > way onto Beech products about 1980. > > http://www.electromech.com/liquidlevel3RED.html > > They've now been produced in dozens of configurations > and tens of thousands of fielded product. One of > my more prolific brainstorms. > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:57 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Why3 different alt disconnect relay wiring in Z schematics? From: "messydeer" Hello :-) I am in the process of making my schematic for a Jab 3300. If I go with a master contactor, I may base it on Z-21 and if not, Z-20. While looking at these two, I noticed there were different ways to wire the alternator OV disconnect relay. And I found a 3rd way done in Z-16. Below are listed my summaries of what the differences are. I'd like to understand why they are done this way, what the pros and cons are, and if I've misunderstood anything. Z-16 (with a battery contactor) has one of the alternator leads connected to the com of the alt disconnect relay and the other to the regulator. The N.O. lead of the relay then goes to the regulator. So when the relay is closed, both leads of the alternator go to the regulator. When the relay is open, still one of the leads from the alternator is connected to the regulator. But because it's AC, and the alternator is not grounded, there is no return path, thus no current put out to the regulator. Z-20 (without a battery contactor) has both alt leads going to the regulator first, then to the N.O. pole of the alt relay. The crowbar OVM is connected to the #4 pole of the master switch, as it is in Z-16. Z-21(with a battery contactor) has both alternator leads going through the regulator, as in Z-20, but then goes to the com pole of the alt disconnect relay. The relay also has the crowbar OVM connected across its coil and not to the master switch. -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257434#257434 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:42 PM PST US From: luigit@freemail.it Subject: AeroElectric-List: Icom 200 --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. 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